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  1. #301
    Runs with scissors! DAKPluto's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Anarchy Bunny
    I dunno . . . I can't really agree that Dorsey should win the Heisman, and that's mainly because when his team does badly, it isn't him that steps up, it's McGahee.

    In several of their close games this year, when Dorsey failed to do his job, McGahee always came through with the big plays. That's what separates him, in my opinion, from someone like Larry Johnson, who quite frankly rolls over anyone that gets in his way.

    Dorsey's success at QB is dependent on the fact that he has a class runningback to make up for his many mistakes, and a killer offensive line. Just as you say, DAK, that PSU only gets good running yards on a shitty run defense, Dorsey only really throws very well against teams with a shitty secondary, and sometimes not even then.

    When Miami played FSU, for instance, where was Dorsey? That was a team effort, and a lucky near-miss, but it wasn't Dorsey that led them on the field in the end, it was the Miami defense.

    A huge difference between Johnson and Dorsey is the fact that when Johnson plays badly, PSU doesn't do too well, when Dorsey does badly, he has someone like McGahee to stand up and make up for it.

    Dorsey isn't the most outstanding player in college football right now, and he certainly isn't responsible for the 32 game win streak.

    Well, without a good offensive line and good running back, ANY QB will look like shit. Look at Marino, he suffered from piss poor people around him so Miami never got him his ring he deserved, and he was an outstanding QB. Nobody wins the Heisman without having great support from his teammates.

    Where was Dorsey against FSU? He passed for 362 yards and 2 touchdowns. He averaged 8.0 yards per pass. I'll take those stats from a QB any day.

    For the season he has averaged well over 60% completion percentage, and at least 2 touchdown passes a game. And averages well over 200 yards per game.

    Dorsey has played against some of the best teams, and every game he post high completion %, and low INT.


    Brad Banks is a good example also of a QB that doesn't put up huge numbers, and doesn't stand out in the spotlight. But he has gotten the job done when asked of him. Had he only had a better year last year, then I would say give the Heisman to him last year. But, frankly, last year he sucked.

    And sorry, but PapaJoe has always been known for running up the score. It isn't exactly a bad thing either IMO, if done with some level of taste, which he does. He may have benched Johnson after the 2nd this week, but that was because PapaJoe is looking towards the bowls. He doesn't want Johnson injured. But look at Indiana, PapaJoe kept him in all the way until the end of the 4th. Johnson even scored a TD in the fourth. There was no reason to leave him in by that point. Penn State had the game well in hand by that point.

    How about Northwestern where Penn State was up 35-0, and Johnson was still left in to score another TD in the end of the Third. There is no reason that Johnson should have still been in that game except to increase his numbers and run up the score.

    There is many other RB outside of McGahee and Johnson that are better than those two that will never win the Heisman because they don't post bigger states, and aren't with a huge team. Biggest example, Forsey from Boise State. Have you seen this kid? He is amazing. I think he is going to have one hell of a career in the NFL, and amount to more that Johnson or McGahee ever will. But he will never win the Heisman, and will never be in the running.

  2. #302
    Burrell 4 MVP maxx powerz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DAKPluto

    And sorry, but PapaJoe has always been known for running up the score. It isn't exactly a bad thing either IMO, if done with some level of taste, which he does. He may have benched Johnson after the 2nd this week, but that was because PapaJoe is looking towards the bowls. He doesn't want Johnson injured. But look at Indiana, PapaJoe kept him in all the way until the end of the 4th. Johnson even scored a TD in the fourth. There was no reason to leave him in by that point. Penn State had the game well in hand by that point.

    How about Northwestern where Penn State was up 35-0, and Johnson was still left in to score another TD in the end of the Third. There is no reason that Johnson should have still been in that game except to increase his numbers and run up the score.

    Where the hell are they feeding you that garbage. JoePa is one of the classiest coaches in the game. Hell, he's so against running up the score, it COST THEM A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP.

    I forget what year, I think it was 94. They were the number one team in the country, with the best offense in the country. Ki-Jana Carter, Kerry Collins, Bobby Engram, Kyle Brady. They lit everyone up. And they were the number one team heading into Illinois. They were up 31-14 with 5 minutes left, an impressive win. But JoePa takes out the starters, Illinois gets two TDs in the last five minutes, and PSU wins by the less impressive 31-28. They lose their number one ranking to Nebraska, and never get it back since they never played each other. Cost them a national title.

    If JoePa really runs up the score like you say he does, Johnson would have 2,300 yards. At least. The full half yesterday. A full half a couple of weeks ago. That's a full game where Larry didn't get to play. Plus, a little more for the games where he was pulled with a quarter to play. Joe does not give a damn about stats. Johnson could have broke the single game PSU rushing record (for a fourth time this season) and got his Heisman campaign really going. But Joe yanked him.

    Now, with all that said, Ken Dorsey WILL win the Heisman. He shouldn't, but he will. He has huge name recognition, and even though it shouldn't, his stats from previous years will help him. He's on an undefeated team, and he's done enough to keep them that way. Johnson's stats (2,350 total yards, 23 TDs, an NCAA record 8.0 ypc) blow Dorsey's modest stats (22 TD, 2500 yds) out of the water. But Dorsey plays for the right team, with the right players around him, at the right time, in a year where he's the only preseason candidiate still standing, to win. That's what it comes down to.

  3. #303
    Runs with scissors! DAKPluto's Avatar
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    Y'all are so adament about not giving it to Dorsey, why don't y'all bring up the RBs that are better than Johnson? How about Forsey from Boise State? How about Steven Jackson from Oregon State? Or maybe Avon Cobourne? All three of them are better than Larry Johnson will ever be. I don't see you preaching their praises.

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    Stanley Spadowski's Clubhouse them69's Avatar
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    Better than LJ will ever be....hmm where's their 2000 yards, leading the nation in rushing, yards per carry (NCAA record, as Maxx pointed out) and all-purpose yardage?

    Oh right, cause their O lines are so bad, they get nowhere.

    A good RB a good O line does not make.

    A good running back a good running back makes.

    I have never seen a running back as good as Larry Johnson in college EVER, and the way you're bashing him leads me to believe you really haven't seen him do his stuff. He breaks tackles left and right, he bulls his way through defenders...he creates something out of nothing all the time. Take yesterday for example, Mills threw a horrible pitch to Johnson on the option, and he made 40+ yards out of it. Then the very next drive he takes the ball 60 some yards, by cutting back to the MIDDLE, between about 3 or 4 defenders. If he is really not that good, WHERE ARE THE OTHER RBs with 200+ yards against those defenses?? That's right, there aren't any.

    Johnson is far and away the best running back in the NCAA, and I don't see how you can detract from him so much.

    I'm not going to bother with you saying JoePa likes to pad stats and run up scores; history shows exactly the opposite, and I'm glad Maxx brought up the 94 example, cause I completely forgot about that last night. If you will look, PSU has had many many players with Heisman seasons overlooked because of Paterno's commitment to the team game. He is far and away the best coach in college football, ever.

  5. #305
    Wise Beyond His Years
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    Oh, please. Are you Penn State fans STILL bitching and moaning about the '94 season? Good god, it was 8 years ago, get over it.

    Lost the national championship because Joey didn't run up the score? What a load of crap. Do you think Tom Osborne would run up the score on anyone? Hell no he wouldn't. Let's take a look at the results of the '94 season...

    Sun, Aug. 28 West Virginia 4 24 at East Rutherford, N.J. 31 - 0 (W)

    Thu, Sep. 08 Texas Tech 1 - at Lubbock, Texas 42 - 16 (W)

    Sat, Sep. 17 UCLA 2 13 Memorial Stadium 49 - 21 (W)

    Sat, Sep. 24 Pacific 2 - Memorial Stadium 70 - 21 (W)

    Sat, Oct. 01 Wyoming 2 - Memorial Stadium 42 - 32 (W)

    Sat, Oct. 08 Oklahoma State 2 - Memorial Stadium 32 - 3 (W)

    Sat, Oct. 15 Kansas State 2 16 at Manhattan, Kan. 17 - 6 (W)

    Sat, Oct. 22 Missouri 3 - at Columbia, Mo. 42 - 7 (W)

    Sat, Oct. 29 Colorado 3 2 Memorial Stadium 24 - 7 (W)

    Sat, Nov. 05 Kansas 1 - Memorial Stadium 45 - 17 (W)

    Sat, Nov. 12 Iowa State 1 - at Ames, Iowa 28 - 12 (W)

    Fri, Nov. 25 Oklahoma 1 - at Norman, Okla. 13 - 3 (W)

    Orange Bowl - National Championship Game
    Sun, Jan. 01 Miami 1 3 at Miami, Fla. 24 - 17 (W)


    Wow, look at those terrible ran up scores. The only exception was Pacific, but come on, it was Pacific. In fact, I remember (even being the wee little one I was) Nebraska having their FOURTH STRING quarterback in. Sounds like we were really trying to run up that score.

    But if you think Nebraska ran up some of those scores, fine. Then I'll remind you of the NU vs. PSU game earlier this year...40-7. That score wasn't ran up, was it?


    By the way, those two numbers after each opponent represent NU's rank and their opponent's rank. Do you think maybe the wins over #2 CU and #3 Miami in the orange bowl had something to do with the #1 ranking?

  6. #306
    Stanley Spadowski's Clubhouse them69's Avatar
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    #1 - When did anyone talk trash about Osbourne or Nebraska? All I said was that Paterno doesn't run up the score. Maxx said it could have cost PSU a national championship, which is completely true due to margin of victory being a factor in the BCS rankings. The title game should have been PSU vs. Nebraska, and it's a damn shame it wasn't, not for PSU fans, but for college football fans everywhere (see last year's "title" game).

    #2 - You think PSU ran the score up in the NU game this year? You'd be wrong on that assumption...it was actually a close game (13-7 at the half) till it was broken up on a few defensive plays, including an INT runback for a touchdown. If you're accusing that score of being run-up, take a look at the scores you just posted. I can count about four games where NU's margin of victory was close to what this year's game was. Paterno actually exercised a lot of restraint; the 111,000 people (I was there) were screaming for blood and were more pumped for this game than any game I'd ever been to. Not to mention the first game of this season, Paterno pulled the starters with a safe lead, and PSU ended up winning only by 3. Not gonna make that mistake again.

  7. #307
    Burrell 4 MVP maxx powerz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by them69
    #1 - When did anyone talk trash about Osbourne or Nebraska? All I said was that Paterno doesn't run up the score. Maxx said it could have cost PSU a national championship, which is completely true due to margin of victory being a factor in the BCS rankings. The title game should have been PSU vs. Nebraska, and it's a damn shame it wasn't, not for PSU fans, but for college football fans everywhere (see last year's "title" game).

    BCS wasn't around in 94. PSU didn't face Nebraska cause PSU played in the Rose Bowl, and Nebraska in the *snicker* national title game.

  8. #308
    Runs with scissors! DAKPluto's Avatar
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    Originally posted by them69
    Better than LJ will ever be....hmm where's their 2000 yards, leading the nation in rushing, yards per carry (NCAA record, as Maxx pointed out) and all-purpose yardage?

    Oh right, cause their O lines are so bad, they get nowhere.

    A good RB a good O line does not make.

    A good running back a good running back makes.

    I have never seen a running back as good as Larry Johnson in college EVER, and the way you're bashing him leads me to believe you really haven't seen him do his stuff. He breaks tackles left and right, he bulls his way through defenders...he creates something out of nothing all the time. Take yesterday for example, Mills threw a horrible pitch to Johnson on the option, and he made 40+ yards out of it. Then the very next drive he takes the ball 60 some yards, by cutting back to the MIDDLE, between about 3 or 4 defenders. If he is really not that good, WHERE ARE THE OTHER RBs with 200+ yards against those defenses?? That's right, there aren't any.

    Johnson is far and away the best running back in the NCAA, and I don't see how you can detract from him so much.
    I'm not going to bother with you saying JoePa likes to pad stats and run up scores; history shows exactly the opposite, and I'm glad Maxx brought up the 94 example, cause I completely forgot about that last night. If you will look, PSU has had many many players with Heisman seasons overlooked because of Paterno's commitment to the team game. He is far and away the best coach in college football, ever.
    #1. They don't have the 2000 yards because they didn't need that many, and they don't have the offensive lines to create those holes. Yet everybody I mentioned has over 1200 yards.

    #2. Where is the 200+ yards against Michigan State? Terry Jackson of Minnesota ran for 233 yards, while his teammate Thomas Tapeh ran for 152 yards.

    Anthony Davis and Dwayne Smith ran for a combined 280 yards against Michigan State.

    Let's check to see who ran as good as LJ in some of his top games:

    Against Northwestern LJ ran for 258 yards.

    Minnesota - Terry Jackson II - 239 yards
    Purdue - Brandon Jones and Joey Harris combined for 297
    Indiana - Yamar Washington and Chris Taylor combined for 232
    Illinois - Antonio Harris ran for 179

    Against Indiana LJ ran for 327 yards

    Utah - Marty Johnson and J.R. Peroulis combined for 267.
    C. Michigan - Robbie Nixon and Kenan Lawhorne combined for 244

    Against Illinois LJ ran for 279 yards

    Southern Mississippi - Derric Watson - 204
    Minnesota - Thomas Tapeh and Terry Johnson II - 272 yards

    Against Virginia LJ ran for 188 yards.

    FSU - Greg Jones - 173 yards.

    So many have played as good as games as LJ did when he ran for big numbers.

    But lets look at the REAL Run defense teams. That would be the three teams that beat Penn State, so you know LJ wasn't pulled early.

    Against Iowa, LJ ran for only 68 yards.

    Indiana - Brian Lewis - 120 yards.

    Against Michigan, LJ ran for 78 yards.

    Washington - Rich Alexis - 98
    W. Michigan - Phillip Reed - 94
    Notre Dame - Ryan Gant - 117
    Purdue - Brandon Kirsch - 81
    Iowa - Jermelle Lewis - 109
    Minnesota - Terry Jackson II - 89
    Wisconsin - Anthony Davis - 154
    Ohio State - Maurice Clarett - 122

    Against Ohio State, LJ ran for only 66 yards.

    Kent State - Joshua Cribbs - 94
    Cincinnatti - DeMarco McCleskey - 69
    Northwestern - Jason Wright - 95
    Wisconsin - Anthony Davis - 144
    Michigan - Brayon Edwards - 105
    Michigan - Ronald Bellamy - 102

    So who has posted better numbers than Larry Johnson against the better Run Defense teams? Looks like everybody did.


    Oh right, cause their O lines are so bad, they get nowhere.

    A good RB a good O line does not make.

    A good running back a good running back makes.
    What the hell are you smoking? A good RB is NOTHING without a Offensive line that can't open up holes. A good RB can't run through people, they can only run through open space. Why the hell do you think McGahee is posting wonderful numbers? Because he has people like Brett Romberg opening up huge holes for him.

    A good running back is the running that will eat up those YAC yards. And Johnson just doesn't run up the best YAC yards.

  9. #309
    Runs with scissors! DAKPluto's Avatar
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    Originally posted by them69
    #1 - When did anyone talk trash about Osbourne or Nebraska? All I said was that Paterno doesn't run up the score. Maxx said it could have cost PSU a national championship, which is completely true due to margin of victory being a factor in the BCS rankings. The title game should have been PSU vs. Nebraska, and it's a damn shame it wasn't, not for PSU fans, but for college football fans everywhere (see last year's "title" game).
    Hate to tell you this, but the BCS wasn't around in 94, so there was no margin of victory to deal with.

    In fact, the margin of victory was completely removed from this years BCS also.

    Back in 94 there was no title game. It was just the old bowl system. The BCS was created because of that. Granted, the BCS fails at this, but that was the intent. And that 94 season was one of the reasons.

  10. #310
    Stanley Spadowski's Clubhouse them69's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DAKPluto
    [BWhat the hell are you smoking? A good RB is NOTHING without a Offensive line that can't open up holes. A good RB can't run through people, they can only run through open space. Why the hell do you think McGahee is posting wonderful numbers? Because he has people like Brett Romberg opening up huge holes for him.

    A good running back is the running that will eat up those YAC yards. And Johnson just doesn't run up the best YAC yards. [/B]
    After all that nitpicking you did there, you DO realize that he leads the league in ALL PURPOSE yards as well. And for the third time, the ONLY game THIS YEAR he has not had more than 100 total yards was against Ohio State, which was a horrendous offensive game for both teams, and solely a defensive struggle. So you can cite rushing numbers all you want...LJ is a better recieving running back than any of those you've mentioned, and it shows.

    I still maintain you really haven't watched him very carefully, or at all. Otherwise you wouldn't be coming down on him like you are. He is completely unreal to watch, and is definitely the best back PSU has ever had...and they've had some good ones..KiJana Carter, Curtiss Enis....Frano Harris, anyone?

    Now onto your argument that he sucks against teams with good run defenses...I've said all this before, but you refuse to acknowledge it. And cause you do, it helps your purpose. You're only arguing half the picture here....

    UMich managed to stop the run. Johnson still had 124 total yards. If you tell me that's not respectable, I don't know what YOU'RE smoking.

    Iowa went up big, and early, so what would be the point of using the running game? They had to go to the air..I'm sure even you will agree when you're down by a bunch, running the ball, which eats the clock, is a dumb strategy. Again, Johnson: over 160 total yards that time, and a score to boot.

    About the BCS in 94 bit...yes, that was a goof. And yes, I know that MOV has been removed from the BCS (thanks Steve Spurrier).

    About the O line comment...you completely misunderstood what I meant about the offensive lines. Yes a running back needs a good O line to do well. But a shitty running back is not going to do very much, good O line or not...and certainly not put up numbers that in most cases, TWO rushers couldn't match (I liked the way none of the players you mentioned against the teams LJ ran all over equaled LJ's yards in any of the games). When the O line is suspect, yes, there are problems...enter the OSU game. The OSU defense wrecked PSU's O line and took them out of their offensive strategy completely. OSU is a good defensive team, I will give them that, and when that happens, nothing is going to get done. Running OR passing.

    After this whole discussion of going around in circles and repeating myself, I only have one thing left to say...

    LARRY JOHNSON FOR HEISMAN!!!!

  11. #311
    Wise Beyond His Years
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    I never said Penn State ran up the score against Nebraska this year. What I meant was you can't think Penn State didn't run up the score against Nebraska this year AND think Nebraska ran up scores in '94. Many of the margin of victories were similar, so either they both ran them up, or neither ran them up. I say neither.

    Honetly, with the crappy pre-BCS system we had (the BCS isn't perfect, but it's better than what we had) both Nebraska and Penn State had a legitimate claim to the national championship, and it probably should have been split. But keep in mind that Nebraska played the #3 team (Miami) and Penn State played the #12 team (Oregon) in their bowl games.

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    Stanley Spadowski's Clubhouse them69's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dumpy
    I never said Penn State ran up the score against Nebraska this year. What I meant was you can't think Penn State didn't run up the score against Nebraska this year AND think Nebraska ran up scores in '94. Many of the margin of victories were similar, so either they both ran them up, or neither ran them up. I say neither.

    Honetly, with the crappy pre-BCS system we had (the BCS isn't perfect, but it's better than what we had) both Nebraska and Penn State had a legitimate claim to the national championship, and it probably should have been split. But keep in mind that Nebraska played the #3 team (Miami) and Penn State played the #12 team (Oregon) in their bowl games.
    I agree with you. Neither. I see what you meant now in your original post.

    To be honest, I think a playoff is the only way to really do it. If they did it right, I think it would just be absolutely awesome. I know I love the intensity of the NFL playoffs and the excitement of March Madness, but I think NCAA football playoffs would be better than both. With how riled up people get over college football without a playoffs (this thread is case in point), it would just be unreal if they did something like that. I'm sure they will try to devise a new system fairly soon...playoff or not, I'm looking forward to it.

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    Intercontinental Champion Y2Jay76's Avatar
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    Originally posted by them69
    To be honest, I think a playoff is the only way to really do it.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    I'm sure they will try to devise a new system fairly soon...playoff or not, I'm looking forward to it.
    Don't hold your breath. ABC has a television contract with the NCAA and BCS that runs through 2006.

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    Runs with scissors! DAKPluto's Avatar
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    After all that nitpicking you did there, you DO realize that he leads the league in ALL PURPOSE yards as well. And for the third time, the ONLY game THIS YEAR he has not had more than 100 total yards was against Ohio State, which was a horrendous offensive game for both teams, and solely a defensive struggle. So you can cite rushing numbers all you want...LJ is a better recieving running back than any of those you've mentioned, and it shows.

    You can yell over 2000 yards all you want, you can yell that he leads the division in yards all you want. That is only HALF the story. Look at how he played against tough Defense. He played piss poor. And the majority of those 2000 yards came from teams that I could rack up 200 yards against.

    Stats can only tell part of the story. That is why the BCS computers are so screwed up. It's a bunch of geeks punching numbers that don't know jack shit about football. And is Larry Johnson a better running back that say, Terry Jackson II, no.


    I still maintain you really haven't watched him very carefully, or at all. Otherwise you wouldn't be coming down on him like you are. He is completely unreal to watch, and is definitely the best back PSU has ever had...and they've had some good ones..KiJana Carter, Curtiss Enis....Frano Harris, anyone?

    Yes, I've watched him play, and nothing impressed me enough to say he deserves the Heisman.

    I propse this question to you, have you watched Brock Forsey of Boise State? I doubt it because Boise State recieved zip on National Coverage (Shame too, they had a damn good year) He, BTW, leads the Nation in Rushing Touchdowns. He also leads the nation in Total Touchdowns. He scored 34 more points than Larry Johnson did.

    Have you watched Chris Brown of Colorado, who has rushed against some of the BEST defenses in the division.

    How about Michael Turner of Northern Illinois, who had 1915 rushing yards on the season? You probally will say he isn't anywhere close to Larry Johnson, even though he was only 100 yards short of equaling Johnson.

    All three of those men are better than Larry Johnson will ever be. And if any of them had the chance to play with the same Offensive Line and same schedule as Larry Johnson, they would have beaten every single stat. And I will be proven correct when they all enter the NFL. Mark my word, Brock Forsey is going to be one of the best RB in the NFL ever.



    Now onto your argument that he sucks against teams with good run defenses...I've said all this before, but you refuse to acknowledge it. And cause you do, it helps your purpose. You're only arguing half the picture here....

    UMich managed to stop the run. Johnson still had 124 total yards. If you tell me that's not respectable, I don't know what YOU'RE smoking.

    It respectable only in the sense that if you check the numbers, that was the average total yards for every starting RB that Michigan played. It's not like 124 was anything special, or more than anybody else had done against them.

    Iowa went up big, and early, so what would be the point of using the running game? They had to go to the air..I'm sure even you will agree when you're down by a bunch, running the ball, which eats the clock, is a dumb strategy. Again, Johnson: over 160 total yards that time, and a score to boot.

    And against Ohio State, what is your answer? Johnson had less than a 100 total yards. He only had one score, and that was a short 5 yard run.

    What happened against Michigan? Penn State led most of the game, why wasn't he able to rush for more than 78 yards?



    About the BCS in 94 bit...yes, that was a goof. And yes, I know that MOV has been removed from the BCS (thanks Steve Spurrier).

    Don't worry, I try to blame the BCS for most things that go wrong in this world.

    About the O line comment...you completely misunderstood what I meant about the offensive lines. Yes a running back needs a good O line to do well. But a shitty running back is not going to do very much, good O line or not...and certainly not put up numbers that in most cases, TWO rushers couldn't match (I liked the way none of the players you mentioned against the teams LJ ran all over equaled LJ's yards in any of the games). When the O line is suspect, yes, there are problems...enter the OSU game. The OSU defense wrecked PSU's O line and took them out of their offensive strategy completely. OSU is a good defensive team, I will give them that, and when that happens, nothing is going to get done. Running OR passing.

    Well, none of them equaled LJ yards because their coach doesn't run them into the ground. Everyone of them had players behind them that rushed for 30-60 yards a piece. I can pull those stats if you want them. In essence, they did run as many as Larry Johnson cause there was No Need to.

    And I'll never argue that a good O line can make a bad Running Back Good. And I have never said that Larry Johnson is bad. I just don't think he is the best in Div-1A right now, and doesn't deserve the Heisman.

    Of course the geeks that run their BCS computers probally would give it to him if they could since he has the biggest numbers.


    After this whole discussion of going around in circles and repeating myself, I only have one thing left to say...

    LARRY JOHNSON FOR HEISMAN!!!!

    And that will be a sad day for the Heisman. But in a way, it would make sense. The Heisman curse would definetly follow Larry Johnson. The way the Heisman curse has been the last few years, I almost wouldn't wish the Heisman on any player I respected.

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    Well I propose this to you: Who do YOU think deserves the Heisman?

    More on this tomorrow, but for now I need some sleep.

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    Originally posted by them69
    Well I propose this to you: Who do YOU think deserves the Heisman?

    More on this tomorrow, but for now I need some sleep.
    Didn't he already make a case for Ken Dorsey?

    And actually, I heard a good reason why Ken Dorsey shouldn't win the Heisman on ESPN this morning.

    Basically they said that when you looked around and compared Dorsey to the rest of the QB's in the NCAA stat-wise he's just an above average QB.

    Hell, the QB here at UVa has thrown for more yards, td's, and has a better completetion percentage. And look at the game against Maryland that Shaub played on Saturday. Dude was 23-27 and 3 TD's against one of the best defenses in the NCAA. And he's been playing like that most of the season since he worked out his jitters in the first 2 games against CU and FSU.

    The point?

    Dorsey is good. But he's not the best QB around, just like Johnson's good, but ain't the best. I would say the Heisman should go to a person that is integral in the team's success, someone whom without the team would have near the amount of victories. This player could succeed and has succeeded with sub-par players around him, but he inspires the team to play there best for 60 minutes every Saturday. I think there are other players out there that meet the criteria a lot better than Dorsey, who's an above average QB with an NFL-bound offensive line, great recievers and an awesome Back like McGahee.

    I do agree, however, that Johnson doesn't deserve the Heisman over someone like. . . McGahee, who always shows up to play. The other thing I don't like about Johnson is the guy doesn't really exhibit any leadership skills like you see inspired by guys like Dorsey, McGahee, Banks, et al.

    BTW: Matt Shaub is a PIMP, and it's a disgrace the kid doesn't get more attention that he has. He's doing some awesome things at UVa, and next year when we have a more experienced o-line on the field I think you're gonna see Shaub kick some freakin' ass. Dude shows up to play when it matters most, just look at the games he's had against ranked opponents.

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    Originally posted by them69
    Well I propose this to you: Who do YOU think deserves the Heisman?

    More on this tomorrow, but for now I need some sleep.
    Well, despite what AB just posted, I actually wouldn't give my first place vote to Dorsey. I feel Dorsey deserves it more than Johnson, but I still wouldn't give it to him.

    If I had to give the Heisman, my first place vote would go to either Brock Forsey of Boise State, or Brad Banks of Iowa.

    And the way he is going, in a year or two I think Maurice Claurett is going to be in the running against McGahee.

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    Bullshit. Banks, has as good a shot as anyone, I would put him second on my list behind Johson. But Forsey? I hope you are from idaho, because that is the ONLY way to justify putting a player with worse stats than Johnson ahead of him. Johnson has six less TDs, but 500 more rushing yards, a better (in fact, best all time) average, and it came against better teams. Forsey didn't face Michigan, Ohio State or Iowa. Hell, Johnson had 11 games against teams from one of the top 6, BCS, conferences. Forsey had 1 (Arkansas) where he was held to 63 total yards and no TDs. Comparable to Johnson's OSU game. Sounds like somebody has a double standard, and didn't think anyone else would find out. Uh oh . . .

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    Originally posted by hed
    Auburn 17
    Alabama 7



    And I'm not going to gloat...but what a freakin' AWESOME game! I was biting my nails right down to the last play, and now my Ohio State Buckeyes have truly earned the right to play for the national championship.

    People can just keep underestimated them and making predictions "BLAH BLAH BLAH THEY CAN'T BEAT MIAMI BLAH," but we'll see. Their defense has shut down every team they've played this year.

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    Kitty, I heard what happened at your GAME this weekend. Was it you that like the team that rioted in the streets this weekend. Damn college students.

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    Originally posted by maxx powerz
    Bullshit. Banks, has as good a shot as anyone, I would put him second on my list behind Johson. But Forsey? I hope you are from idaho, because that is the ONLY way to justify putting a player with worse stats than Johnson ahead of him. Johnson has six less TDs, but 500 more rushing yards, a better (in fact, best all time) average, and it came against better teams. Forsey didn't face Michigan, Ohio State or Iowa. Hell, Johnson had 11 games against teams from one of the top 6, BCS, conferences. Forsey had 1 (Arkansas) where he was held to 63 total yards and no TDs. Comparable to Johnson's OSU game. Sounds like somebody has a double standard, and didn't think anyone else would find out. Uh oh . . .
    Actually, No, I'm from Florida. And I'm telling you that Forsey is better than Larry Johnson will ever be.

    Forsey was only 500 less than Johnson, and had to do with a Offensive line that was no where close to the talent that Johnson had in front of him.

    I'll repeat, since you apprently didn't see it before, STATS ARE ONLY HALF THE STORY.

    But, if you want to talk stats, look at what Johnson did against those three teams you mentioned (Michigan, Iowa, and Ohio State.) Johnson only had 212 rushing yards in ALL THREE GAMES TOTAL. So Johnson didn't do shit against them either.

    And you mention the Arkansas game. Of course he didn't have as high of numbers that game. Boise State was getting blown out. Brock Forsey only had one carry in the second half becuase they had to pass the ball most of the game. It was 24-0 at the half, and 34-0 at the end of the third. It is the same argument that them69 is saying for the Ohio State game. And since you agree with his arguments, I guess that means you have your own double standards.

    Look at the Offensive line that Brock Forsey has had to deal with. He has 8Freshmen, 2 Sophmores, and 2 Juniors. Only two of them are over 300 pounds, and most are at the 265 range. Hell, half of his O line is under 6 feet tall.

    Look at Johnson's O line. He has so many seniors and juniors blocking for him, it's a miracle if Penn State will have enough people to take the field next year. And most of his are over 6'0" and over 280#.

    So Forsey has had to put up with a young, inexperienced offensive line, he has posted huge numbers with that line, and lead his team to only one loss.

    And I'll ask this again. Have you watched Brock Forsey play this year? Even one game? Or are you basing all of his skill on just the numbers you have seen?

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    No Lysa...I didn't riot, and I think that rioting after a win is stupid...actually rioting in general is f'ing dumb.

    But I celebrated...no doubt about it!

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    It's obviously useless in arguing this point over and over and in circles like we have been doing. I'm not about to change your opinion, and you're not about to change mine. But, there are a just a couple things I'd like to straighten out..

    In your last post, you are still on about Johnson only getting 200 some rushing yards combined in those three games combined. You've been arguing that stats are only half the story, but what is that all about? You were just quoting his stats to fit your argument. It seems like you are missing half the picture in the games where PSU lost. Yes, I keep quoting his stats, too, and that is one of Johnson's biggest cases, but if you want to go by game impact, I'll be really detailed here.

    With the exception of the Iowa game (in which it had to be mostly a passing attack for PSU due to Iowa coming out completely on fire...and still Johnson had a damn good game, more recieving than rushing), the teams that beat PSU centered their defense around stopping Johnson.

    In the OSU game, Penn State came out on their opening drive, and Johnson ran all over their defense, scoring quickly in the first quarter. OSU obviously saw that stopping the run would now be their biggest priority or else they would get rocked and set their defense up so they stacked the line nearly every single time. Normally, that's not the best idea since Mills is a damn good QB, but he played the worst game I've seen him play so far. Result? OSU 13 - PSU 7. As I said before, there's a reason OSU is in the Fiesta bowl, and that's because of their defense. In fact, their only TD in that game came from a defensive INT runback. They are nasty, and once they saw how good Johnson was on that first drive, they pooled all their resources into stopping him.

    In the UMich game, they won 27-24 in OT. It was a heavy passing game, because both Mills and Navarre were throwing well. Johnson still had 78 yards rushing and a touchdown...the catch? He was playing hurt, with a pulled hamstring that happened late in the Wisconson game the week before. I don't see how you could call that a poor performance with the game in the air (Mills 2TDs passing) and him not close to 100% in the game.

    The moral of the story?

    I think you're drastically underestimating Larry Johnson. I think you'll see for himself that he is going to be a pretty good NFL back. He's no Barry Sanders, but is a good strong back with excellent body control. I have seen him break FIVE tackles on a run before, tackles that would have had most other backs down. His ability to make something out of nothing (see the MSU game, 279 yards on 19 carries?) is second to none...runs of 41 (on a broken play) and 78 (just completely faking the MSU defense out of their shoes) yards show that. He has been stood up at the 5 before by two defenders and powered his way into the end zone. And when a team can stop the run? He's the second or third best reciever on the team, next to two other guys named Johnson.

    So, mark my words, you haven't seen the end of him yet.

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    Well, as I said, I won't argue that he isn't good. I know he is a good RB. But I just don't feel he is the best this year, nor will he play as the best in the NFL. I think his stats are the benefit of an awsome O line. Had he played with the O line that Brock Forsey had, or vice versa, I think the stats would swap.

    All I can say is this. Keep your eye on Brock Forsey in the future. However drafts him is gonna be one lucky team. And I think he has the potential to be one of the best.

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    I will definitely look out for him in the NFL. Forsey has definitely not gotten much in the way of press this year, and nothing beats a guy coming out of seemingly nowhere and making huge waves...part of the reason why I like Johnson so much. All I can do is pray he doesn't get drafted on the Bengals, the PSU curse, heh.

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    Originally posted by them69
    I will definitely look out for him in the NFL. Forsey has definitely not gotten much in the way of press this year, and nothing beats a guy coming out of seemingly nowhere and making huge waves...part of the reason why I like Johnson so much. All I can do is pray he doesn't get drafted on the Bengals, the PSU curse, heh.

    Forget the PSU curse, just think of the Heisman curse. You sure you want Larry Johnson to win the Heisman? Sounds kinda of mean..............

    It's almost a bad thing nowdays to win the Heisman. Its like killing your NFL career.


    But one thing is for sure. We can argue who is better till we are blue in the face. But with a sport with over 100 teams, there is no real way to tell. BUT, in a couple of years, we will know. Cause both of them will play the same teams, with fairly the same o lines. Then we will know. Unless of course somebody decides to break a leg or something.
    Last edited by DAKPluto; November 25th, 2002 at 10:19 PM.

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    Well winner of the LSU/Arkansas game plays Georgia for the SEC title. If Alabama was not in trouble they would play for the title.

    Ole Miss needs a win to go 6-6 and take the last SEC bowl slot. For once in a while the SEC will not have extra teams available for bowls. If Ole Miss does not win they will have a slot empty.

    Go Rebels!

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    Penn State's Larry Johnson ran for 2,000 yards and is now in the running for the Heisman. A look at the top of ESPN.com's Heisman Poll:
    1. Iowa's Brad Banks
    2. Penn St.'s Larry Johnson
    3. Miami's Willis McGahee
    Just saw this on ESPN.com.

    I didn't want to bring this issue back up, and I'm not here to debate how good Larry Johnson is, but a thought crossed my mind that I wanted to share.

    The line that got me thinking was this: Penn State's Larry Johnson ran for 2,000 yards and is now in the running for the Heisman.

    This was my thought. If he was so "outstanding" as the Heisman is awarded for, then why did it take until his last game, and the 2000 yard barrier, to be noticed? Maybe it's just me, but the Heisman shouldn't be for somebody that didn't standout until he broke one record. Until that 2000 yard mark was hit, he wasn't really considered an important player outside of Happy Valley, or at least the Big Ten world.

    This is one of the main differences for me with somebody like Dorsey, or McGahee, or Brad Banks, or Bryon Leftwhich. They have been talked about since before the season. They had shown themselves early to be great players that stand out. Most people in the nation that watch college football knew their names before the season started.

    But Larry Johnson was just another player to most people until last week. To me, that just doesn't signal "outstanding."

    I realize that this definition would kill the chances of any player from a smaller school (not that they ever really have a chance anyways) such as Brock Forsey, but is what the Heisman was established on.

    Remember, the Heisman isn't awarded to the Best Player. The NCAA already has an award for that. The Heisman is for the most "outstanding." And I think their is a major difference between the two. The most outstanding to me signals somebody that has earned a mark in the game. Somebody that will be remembered for what he did at his school, and how he helped his school.

    And by that argument, I think this is why Dorsey should still be a strong canidate for the Heisman. Maybe he isn't the Best QB around, and maybe his stats aren't the highest. But he will always be known for leading his school on their longest win streak ever, and the second longest win streak for any school in the modern era. He may not have been the best, but he has remained steady and poised in the most adverse times.

    The other player that stands out as much as Dorsey in this respect, IMO, is Brad Banks. I think he will always have a place at Iowa for leading them to the Rose Bowl as co-champs of the Big Ten, and for putting Iowa in the major College Radar. Until this year, Iowa was never thought of as a major threat.

    Unfortunally, Larry Johnson just didn't have his best times in the times that PSU needed him the most. I think LJ will be remembered for his 2000 yard mark, but that just doesn't carry the same weight as the win record, IMO. And he just didn't have that name recognition until the end of the year.

    As I have said before, I think Johnson is good, and maybe in a year without Banks and Dorsey, he could have done it. But I just think the record and recognition of those two are much stronger. Both have been there for their team when they were needed the most.
    Last edited by DAKPluto; November 28th, 2002 at 11:22 PM.

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    Why didn't anyone hear about him really? Cause Paterno was running his mouth the whole season. I love the guy, but he overshadowed anything Johnson or his team did this year. All the time, Johnson was quietly making huge waves, but when you have the #1 winningest coach who is also a living legend ranting and raving in press conferences, the media jumps on that. Who cares how the team is doing, JoePa is f'n pissed at the refs!

    Even then, he was on the cover of ESPN magazine a couple weeks ago. There have been plenty of deserving PSU players that have been looked over just because of how the program is run. Paterno plays seniors to a fault, and that's why you haven't heard about Larry Johnson yet. He was behind two other senior tailbacks last year in Omar Easy and Eric McCoo. Name recognition before the season is BS.

    He came through in the Iowa game (#2 rush defense in the nation) and in the Michigan game in more ways than just rushing. Seventy eight yard screen pass for a TD anyone? You're STILL not looking at the complete package he is..you're stuck on the rush stats. OSU (#4 rush defense) shut him down after he ran them over for a TD in the first liek 3 minutes. Him and the rest of the PSU offense were done after that due to Mills' crappy game.

    Must you start this up again.

    I would not be upset if Brad Banks won the award, he is as deserving as anyone, and I think it's a sham Iowa never got to play OSU...although that's still possible. He would have destroyed them.

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    Originally posted by them69

    I would not be upset if Brad Banks won the award, he is as deserving as anyone, and I think it's a sham Iowa never got to play OSU...although that's still possible. He would have destroyed them.
    Highly unlikely that Iowa would go. It would require Miami, OU, Georgia, and ND to lose. In theory, it could happen, but not likely. Besides, I think Iowa is VERY content with the Roses. Nobody ever thought they would get to play in the Rose Bowl this year. The Big Ten has definitly been the suprise conference this year in terms of improvment. Too bad Michigan State is there........

    I read that the Big Ten is debating adding another team so they can fill two sides and have a conference champion game. The fact that Iowa and OSU didn't play each other this year helps that argument. The question is this, what team would they get? I think the most likely is for Pitt to leave the Big East and join. They would be a great addition to the Big Ten. Although I would hate to see them leave the Big East.

    I still think that OSU would NOT be in the Fiesta had they played Iowa.

    One other suprise team I want to mention. Can y'all believe the South Florida Bulls? They had one hell of a year. They get the C-USA next year, and they made one hell a showing to kick ass in it next year. They fact that USF will not be in a bowl this year is kinda sad. 9-2.

    (Yet FSU gets in with 4 losses, maybe 5 after Sat. )

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    Pitt would definitely be a good addition. I think joining the Big 10 would help their football program immensely..they'd get a lot more recruits, and more national coverage. Paterno has already lobbied for them to join cause the Pitt/PSU rivalry was a great one back in the day..hell you go to either teams' message boards on espn.com and there are wars going on even now. Nothing beats a good rivalry.

    I think the other candidate that's been talked about is Notre Dame. I doubt they'd join, but that would be ridiculous..the most watched college team in the US joining the Big 10. It would be great in my mind at least.

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    Hawaii is about to beat down Alabama

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    Well, ladies and gentlemen, the BCS has just become really weird. We now have Oklahoma out of the National Picture. And with the ND/USC game tonight, things can get really interesting. The bowl picture gets really weird if ND loses tonight.

    ND will most likely fall out of the top 6 in the BCS if they lose. In that case, they lose the chance to be in a BCS bowl as an out-large.

    Georgia still has the SEC championship to play, and most likely will be sitting on the bubble waiting for Miami to lose.

    BUT, there is now a chance that a lose to Virginia Tech may not hurt Miami. There is a chance that the BCS computers could keep Miami in second over Georgia with a loss to VT. So, Miami's next game may not be important at all. Of course, I would prefer if Miami didn't test that theory

    And one other interesting possibility.

    Let's say Miami loses to VT, ND to USC, and Georgia to Ark. Guess who plays Ohio State in the Fiesta Bowl? That's right, Iowa.

    But, I rest firm that it will be Miami and OSU.

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    Damn Bama, they beat Hawaii, but that's okay we still kicked there ass this year!!!!!!!!!!! We get the damn Peach Bowl, once again, for how many years now!!!!!!!!!

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    Well, OU and ND fall today. Looks like ND won't be getting that precious at-large unless some serious upsets happen.

    FSU salvages their season, but it still sucks that a team with 4 losses will be playing in a BCS bowl.

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    Originally posted by DAKPluto
    And one other interesting possibility.

    Let's say Miami loses to VT, ND to USC, and Georgia to Ark. Guess who plays Ohio State in the Fiesta Bowl? That's right, Iowa.

    But, I rest firm that it will be Miami and OSU.
    Damn, that would be so awesome if it happened! Not only would it be for the National Championship, but also for the undisputed Big Ten Championship as well.

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    Most experts are saying that even if Miami loses to VT, thay probably wouldn't fall too much on the polls, perhaps only one spot, and that would still put them 2nd in the BCS and go on the championship game. I concur with that assessment. They have proven to be the best team this year, and a loss shouldn't hurt them and they should still go on to the Fiesta Bowl.

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    Originally posted by Java
    Most experts are saying that even if Miami loses to VT, thay probably wouldn't fall too much on the polls, perhaps only one spot, and that would still put them 2nd in the BCS and go on the championship game. I concur with that assessment. They have proven to be the best team this year, and a loss shouldn't hurt them and they should still go on to the Fiesta Bowl.
    I would say that it depends on Georgia. Even if Georgia wins, but doesn't play well, then Miami should top them even with loss. But if Georgia plays great, then Miami may not be able to top them.

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    I am worried about Notre Dame sneaking into a major bowl somewhere, like the Orange Bowl. Even though they lost and are out of the top 10 in most polls, they are such a HUGE money draw that these bowls will still give them a look. I think I might have seen it on espn.com...they could royally fuck up the whole bowl picture, even the Rose Bowl, if one of these bowls bite.

    On a side note, USC impressed the hell out of me this weekend. They are a major force, and Palmer is a dead nasty QB.

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    Well, ND finished in the top 12 this week at 12th. Assuming they stay there next week, then they will get a BCS bowl. If Miami gets the Fiesta, then Orange gets the first at-large. In that case, they will take ND since they put asses in the seats.

    Now it is up to UCLA to beat Washington State so that USC and Iowa get their correct bowl games.

  42. #342
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    Originally posted by the_raven
    Hawaii is about to beat down Alabama
    No, I don't think so. In fact, we kicked their asses

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    Oh and hed, looks like y'alls precious nose talker is off to see the Aggies. They are giving him 11 million dollars. What a joke! Wonder who will coach at Bama next? I got it Steve Spurrier. Wouldn't that be some shit!

  44. #344
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    Originally posted by stonecoldfvr
    Oh and hed, looks like y'alls precious nose talker is off to see the Aggies. They are giving him 11 million dollars. What a joke! Wonder who will coach at Bama next? I got it Steve Spurrier. Wouldn't that be some shit!
    Spurrier?! Hahahahahahahaha! That'd be INSANE, but I doubt he'd leave Washington, who knows?

    Anyway, I hear that they're looking at this coach from the Saints, I think he's an offensive coordinator or some shit. He used to play for Bama in the 70's or something like that.

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    Whoever wns the Orange Bowl (best two teams right now) should face the winner of the Fiesta Bowl (two teams without a loss), to determine who is the REAL national champion. That would be so kickass.

    Anyway, I should be pissed about the Orange Bowl swiping Iowa, and putting a Big 12 team in the Rose Bowl. And usually, I would be. But Iowa versus USC is just such a kick ass match up, I can't argue logic. Two teams that haven't lost since September, with Heisman candidates at QB. Easily the best looking bowl matchup of the four BCS games. So I'm excited about that one.

    Plus, Penn State back on New Year's Day, where they belong. Although I wish Arkansas had beaten Georgia, so we could have gotten a good game. Damn Auburn.

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    War Eagle baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Tigers!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope we cream Penn State!!!!!!!!!!!

  47. #347
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    Keep on hoping, cause Larry Johnson's gonna run wild on you. And go ahead, stack the box with eight guys. Mills will just light you up. The offense is too good, the only way to stop Penn State is to cheat. You might want to see some Big Ten referees about that

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    Well, this shouldn't come as a suprise to anybody, but the 5 finalist have been annouced for the Heisman.

    And as expected, it is Dorsey, McGahee, Banks, Johnson, and Palmer.

    Odds are this is going to be close, very close.

    There is many arguments either way for all five men.

    However, this is my guess on the approx. order they will end up:

    1 and 2 will be Banks and Dorsey

    3 and 4 will be Johnson and McGahee

    and Palmer will be 5th.

    Those 1/2 and 3/4 decisions are just too tough to decide.

    I would love to see Dorsey win, as I feel he deserves it for his wonderful time in College Football, but I also understand that it isn't a "Lifetime Achievment Award" But, he still was always straight and concentrated when he was needed the most this year. Maybe his numbers aren't the biggest, but he does have one stat that nobody else has: 38-1.

    Brad Banks came out of nowhere, and delivered Iowa the best performance since 1922. He would be deserving on just the fact that he made Iowa a major force in NCAA Football again. But he backed up everything with his performance. But could that lose to Iowa State be enough to keep him from going over Dorsey?

    Willis McGahee wasn't even supposed to be a tailback, or even a starter. But the injury to Gore put him there. And now Miami has there best running back in the history of the team. And Miami has produced some huge running backs. There is no doubting that he had an amazing year, and paired with Dorsey, was part of the best offense in the nation. But could the voters pass him up to give the honors to his teammate?

    Larry Johnson was an unkown through most of the season. He sat back and quietly racked up yards. It took his last 2-3 games for the nation to even notice him, but with 2000 yards, they took a BIG look at him. The man is a great running back, and looks to have a bright future ahead of him. But could a couple weak games, and his late entry hurt him?

    Carson Palmer was another late entry into the Heisman race. But he was good enough to land his team into a Orange Bowl game, although many feel that he should be playing in Pasadena. But at least he gets to play the correct team. But his quiet run through the season, and his smaller numbers could hurt him. But as Dorsey, he did post enough numbers to win. But he is still the least likely to win.


    Some people that were left out that were noticble: Bryon Leftwich, and Rex Grossman.

    Bryon lost his chance with some unstellar games, and nagging injuries.

    Amazing to think that Grossman was second last year, and not even in this year.

  49. #349
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    Exclamation

    I usually support athletes staying in school longer, but Grossman really got the raw end of that deal. He'll still be NFL, but who knows what round he'll go in. Damn.

    As much as I'd like to see it go to Johnson, I think Banks is gonna nab the award.

  50. #350
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    YEp, they figured Grossman would have gone in the top 5 had he entered the draft last year. I think it would be in his best intreast to stay in this last year and try to have another great season so he has a better chance at a higher draft.

    And I think McGahee would beat Johnson in the voting anyways. That winning record means a lot in the voter's eyes. That's what makes the Banks/Dorsey vote so interesting.

    This year could be closer than Bo Jackson's win. That was the closest ever at a 45 point difference.

  51. #351
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    McGahee will get it, oh fo sho.

    That's what I'm talkin' bout, Willis....sorry

  52. #352
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    Well, tonight's the night. After tonight . . . we won't have to see 500 promos per show for the Junction Boys.

    Maybe there is a God.

    Or maybe they'll replay it more than MTV replays The Real World.


  53. #353
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    Carson Palmer

    Who the hell saw that one coming?

  54. #354
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    Exclamation

    Well, he is damn good, that's for sure. I have no problems with him winning it. Although I thought Banks should have taken it if a QB won.

  55. #355
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    WVU RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  56. #356
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    Carson Palmer was my pick! It was weird though that Ken Dorsey got the less amount of votes. I thought he would at least be 3rd.

  57. #357
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    Is anyone watching the Tangerine Bowl....

    Texas Tech is destroying Clemson 34-2 at halftime

  58. #358
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    So, with the Nebraska loss to Ole Miss, anybody else think that the suicide hotline in Lincoln is goona be working overtime

  59. #359
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    GO REBELS!!!!!!!!!!

  60. #360
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    I'd just like to point out that my Cavaliers mopped the floor with West Virginia this afternoon.

    The 1st half was the best football i've watched in a loooong time, and the 2nd half was just ugly.

    Those Mountaineer fuckers were talking shit all month too about how they belonged in a "better" bowl game. Shouldn't talk if you're ranked 13th in the country and you walk into a stadium against a "shit" team and they kick your teeth down your throat.

    Woot.

    Virginia = AWESOME.

    You clowns wish you could watch the kind of football i'm gonna get to watch in the next 2 years at UVa.

  61. #361
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    I still say

    GO REBELS!!!!!!

    HOTTY TODDY!!!!!

    Anyway Eli Manning is going to consider jumping to the NFL. So he may have played his last college game. Before the season people were saying he if left school early he would be a very high pick in the draft. He still had a good year but the team only went 7-6 and I think he had better numbers last year but I could be wrong. I think he should stay one more year personally.

  62. #362
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    Damn, West Virgina fucked up.

  63. #363
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    Damn, now CU falls to Wisconsin.

    This is the year of upset bowls.

    Let's hope that changes by the Fiesta Bowl. My Hurricanes better kick some ass


    And y'all should have joined the Fantasy Bowl Game. I'm at 22 percent

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    War Eagle Baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are going to kick Penn State's ass!!!!!!!!!!! Oh and hed, where's Bama this year, that's right, sitting there ass at home!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  65. #365
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    Originally posted by stonecoldfvr
    War Eagle Baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are going to kick Penn State's ass!!!!!!!!!!! Oh and hed, where's Bama this year, that's right, sitting there ass at home!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Only because of sanctions. They were one of the better teams this year, and would have easily gotten a Dec. 31 or Jan. 1 bowl.

  66. #366
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    Well no shit, but you know in this state, us Auburn fans have been getting ragged all year, so payback is a bitch!!!!!!!! WAR EAGLE!!!!!!!!!!!! GO TIGERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  67. #367
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    I'm sorry, you have exceeded your allowed amount of exclemation points for the year.

    You will no longer be allowed to use them until 2010.

    Clam down, it's only a game.

    /me remembers that he has an entire room devoted to the Hurricanes.

    Okay. so maybe it is more than just a sport.

  68. #368
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    Wake Forest now dominates Oregon.......what the hell is up with this year's bowls games?

    Is FSU going to top Georgia now?

  69. #369
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    So where is the people preaching the praise of Larry Johnson now?

    He looked like crap today as opposed to a Heisman finalist. This is the last thing he needed in an attempt to show he deserved to be there.

    Ronnie Brown looked more like a great running back that game. Larry Johnson even had a hard time with hand-offs.

    It was kinda wierd because he is better than what he played. But this leads creadence to the arguments that he wasn't that outstanding. He still has come up short in the important games.

    But Zack Mills looked great. If Johnson could have just established that run game better, Zack Mills could have torn up Auburn.


    /me braces himself for the onslaught of exclamation points from stonecoldfvr.

  70. #370
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    Ok being a huge Iowa State fan this has been a low year for the cyclones. Losing 5 of there last 6 games and in the season finale they lose to Conneticut. Then we accepted to play in Boise, Idaho to play in the Humanitarian Bowl to play a good Boise State team. I'll give 'em that. Then we get imbarassed in the game and lose 34 -16. A rough year and we lose Seneca Wallace next year. Hopefully we can rebound and be a good team once again.

  71. #371
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    A question for everyone which bowl game this year so far has been the best game???

    I'll say

    Florida vs. Michigan
    The Anti-Steiners: Holla if ya hate him-pm me to join
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  72. #372
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    Originally posted by Steve_Corino_Rulz
    A question for everyone which bowl game this year so far has been the best game???

    I'll say

    Florida vs. Michigan
    No way.

    Wisconsin vs. Colorado.

  73. #373
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    Originally posted by DAKPluto
    No way.

    Wisconsin vs. Colorado.



    I'll second that.

  74. #374
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    Oh I forgot about Wisconsin vs. Colorado. I might switch to that.

  75. #375
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    The Fiesta bowl has been one hell of a game..I hope Miami misses the field goal..

  76. #376
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    FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK

  77. #377
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    Overtime.

  78. #378
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    Jeeeeeesus...

    Missed catch, Miami wins, mysterious pass interference call...

  79. #379
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    Double OT.

  80. #380
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    i want OSU, but that was a bad pass interference call.

  81. #381
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    WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  82. #382
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    No, OHIO STATE DOES NOT WIN THIS GAME!!!!!


    That Pass Interfernce call was the biggest pile of shit I have ever seen in College Football. Ohio State does NOT deserve to win that game.

    That National Championship is null and void, and I will never recognize it.

    The offical watching the attempted catch called incomplete. How the Fucking hell does a judge from the other side of the field call it.

    Ohio State DOES NOT WIN.

  83. #383
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    Bah. Shitty call, yes.


    But I'm going to keep chearing, because I can


    WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  84. #384
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    It was quite a bad call, but Miami had its oppurtunities. 3rd and goal at the 1 and you throw it twice with a quarterback who obviously is still shaken up. Ohio St. hadn't stopped Miami's backs in short yardage, and yet they threw it. Sometimes I just don't understand. Ohio St. won because they took advantage of the easiest play in football, the QB run. He's the closest guy to the line of scrimmage and the first one to touch the ball, so why not let him run it when its 3rd or 4th and short?

  85. #385
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    No, Ohio State didn't win it. The official that called that pass interfernce won that game.

    Everything that happened those last few plays don't matter. The point is simply this, the game was over already. Gamble didn't catch that ball, and contact was made after the ball was touched by Gamble. The official on top of the play ruled the play over. An official away from the play called the penelty, and even the annoucers called it a horribly bad call.

    Ohio State doesn't deserve to win that game, and the fucking know it.

  86. #386
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    Exclamation

    Originally posted by DAKPluto
    No, Ohio State didn't win it. The official that called that pass interfernce won that game.

    Everything that happened those last few plays don't matter. The point is simply this, the game was over already. Gamble didn't catch that ball, and contact was made after the ball was touched by Gamble. The official on top of the play ruled the play over. An official away from the play called the penelty, and even the annoucers called it a horribly bad call.

    Ohio State doesn't deserve to win that game, and the fucking know it.
    I hear Miami couldn't get it in the end zone despite being on the 2. Doesn't that mean Miami blew their chance to win?

    I haven't posted once the whole thread cause the Gophers blow, but I just gotta give it up to the Big 10 right here



    *walks slowly away, ashamed that CBS has horrid reception so I couldn't watch the damned game*

  87. #387
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    Though the tears stream down my face, I can look back and say that I witnessed one of the greatest championship bowl games ever played... *sigh*

    Still though, what a shitty call!! Holding, maybe... Pass interference, not a snowball's chance in Hell!!

    Now I know how my GF felt when the Yankees lost in game seven vs. Arizona...



  88. #388
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    No, Ohio St. does deserve to win. Bad calls are part of the game and you have to live with them. Refs make mistakes. It happens in every sport at every level.

    And Miami has only themselves to blame after what they did with their last few plays.

  89. #389
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    Holy SHIT what a game. From McGahee's injury to the huge punt return to the last second field goal to the key (non) pass intereference call to the pretty much goal-line stand...this game was awesome.

    My good friend over in Columbus is gonna be happy for the next year or so.

    What a game. Congrats to OSU...

    From a Penn State fan.

  90. #390
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    Originally posted by Croc
    No, Ohio St. does deserve to win. Bad calls are part of the game and you have to live with them. Refs make mistakes. It happens in every sport at every level.

    And Miami has only themselves to blame after what they did with their last few plays.

    But the call never should have been allowed. The flag should have been picked up because the official 5 FEET from the play ruled no catch, and no interference.

    It wasn't a bad call, it was a call that never should have been allowed. The game is a total pile of crap because of that.

  91. #391
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    Originally posted by Mister J

    Though the tears stream down my face, I can look back and say that I witnessed one of the greatest championship bowl games ever played... *sigh*

    Still though, what a shitty call!! Holding, maybe... Pass interference, not a snowball's chance in Hell!!

    Now I know how my GF felt when the Yankees lost in game seven vs. Arizona...


    There was a hold at the begining of the play from what I remember which could have disrupted Gamble as he turned to jump for the ball. Granted that's not pass interference and it would've been 4th and goal at the 1 1/2 yard line instead of 1st at the 1, but like I said... mistakes are made.

    Our football team got screwed out of a win on a no call on a fumble. There was 12 seconds left when the receiver caught a backwards screen pass off a hop, and his knee was on the grass when he caught it. It should've been a recovered fumble and a downed ball, which would have run the clock out. Instead they called it incomplete and they ended up winning the game two plays later.

    Shit happens man.

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    Runs with scissors! DAKPluto's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Croc
    There was a hold at the begining of the play from what I remember which could have disrupted Gamble as he turned to jump for the ball. Granted that's not pass interference and it would've been 4th and goal at the 1 1/2 yard line instead of 1st at the 1, but like I said... mistakes are made.

    Even a blind man could see that it wasn't a hold. And the contact is allowed if the ball hasn't been thrown yet.

    And even the blindest Ohio State fan will admit that the ball hadn't been thrown yet. And they will also admit that there was NO pass interference. And the video tape will prove that the official on top of the play ruled no catch.

    There is no doubt about it. Ohio State does not, and shouldn't win that game.

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    Carolina, Priceless Gem Croc's Avatar
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    Originally posted by DAKPluto
    Even a blind man could see that it wasn't a hold. And the contact is allowed if the ball hasn't been thrown yet.

    And even the blindest Ohio State fan will admit that the ball hadn't been thrown yet. And they will also admit that there was NO pass interference. And the video tape will prove that the official on top of the play ruled no catch.

    There is no doubt about it. Ohio State does not, and shouldn't win that game.
    In a perfect world, Ohio State loses. But you sound more like a disgruntled Miami fan than someone argueing with reason. The last team that I follow finished playing 3 days ago, so coming from an unbiased opinion, Ohio State did win and they deserved to win.

    Granted they benifitted from a very bad call which I haven't seen a single person deny yet, but that's not the point. They won, and when Miami coaches look at the game film, I think they're going to be more concerned with why they couldn't stop Krenzel on the 4th and 14 or why they couldn't score from 2 yards out on third down.

    And yes there was contact. The corner was holding onto the arm of Gamble's jersey when he started to make his break. Corners do it all the time so they can get a feel for where the receiver is while still looking at the quarterback. Of course, it happens nearly every play and shouldn't have been called, but the fact is it was and now the game is over and Ohio State is the national champ.

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    Originally posted by DAKPluto
    Even a blind man could see that it wasn't a hold. And the contact is allowed if the ball hasn't been thrown yet.

    And even the blindest Ohio State fan will admit that the ball hadn't been thrown yet. And they will also admit that there was NO pass interference. And the video tape will prove that the official on top of the play ruled no catch.

    There is no doubt about it. Ohio State does not, and shouldn't win that game.
    There are more than one referee for a reason. If one sees something another did not, he throws a flag. That is what they are SUPPOSED TO DO. One may overrule the other and plead his case. It happens. If they didn't do that, then the ref who misses something will just have to go on judgment all the time. Blame the ref who overruled the field judge, but don't say they did something illegal...

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    Greatest game ever...

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    Carolina, Priceless Gem Croc's Avatar
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    Most exciting play...

    7 yard line, Krenzel intercepted in the endzone, Miami player all the way to the 30, Clarett steals the ball as he makes the tackle to set up the crucial field goal.

    Which makes you wonder if people shouldn't try that more often. I mean, how often do defensive backs practice not fumbling the ball?

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    Stanley Spadowski's Clubhouse them69's Avatar
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    That was just about the most awful injury I've ever seen

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    Runs with scissors! DAKPluto's Avatar
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    New information from ESPN.com for y'all:

    The official that made that call is from the Big 12. His name is Terry Porter.

    His reason for the late flag: He replayed the the play in his mind after ruling no catch.

    In the last two years the Big 12 has issued at least to known letters of apology after games where Porter made bad controversial calls.

    So I ask these two questions:

    How long do we wait now for officials to throw the flag? He replayed the event in his mind?

    How many people really think that he could see the event perfectly in his mind, without seeing what he wanted to see in the heat of the moment?

    And are we going to allow an official next year to wait until halfway through the trophey presentation to throw a flag?

    And finally, why the f'n hell was an official with at least 2 letters of apology in the last two years even allowed to officate the game?

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    Pissed Off MTR's Avatar
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    Personally I think Miami was screwed. It was one of the worst calls I have ever seen but shit does happen. I mean Miami let them get a first down on a 4 and 14. After the let down of them scoring and then scoring again in the second overtime and the QB going down then can not even put it in from the 2 yard line in like three tries, so in a way Miami should have over came the bad call, overcame them scoring in the second OT, overcame the QB going down for a play, and proved they were the better team by scoring and forcing a third overtime. As much as I hate the way it ended Ohio State played a hell of a game and does deserve the title. Personally I kind of hope that the polls split the national title after that terrible call but I know it won't happen.

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    Intercontinental Champion BoSox Rule's Avatar
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    I didn't see the game. I wanted to but I was out.

    I hear it was the biggest bullshit ever. I hate the Buckeyes anyway, I actually like the Hurricanes. Now the streak is over, or do bowl games not count?

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