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Thread: Wilfred's Debate 2022 Round 1 Tie 2 - Spudz Mackenzie vs Defrost

  1. #1
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    Wilfred's Debate 2022 Round 1 Tie 2 - Spudz Mackenzie vs Defrost

    WILFRED'S DEBATE 2022 ROUND 1 TIE 2

    @MTR vs @Defrost

    WORST GIMMICK IN THE ATTITUDE ERA

    The Attitude Era between 1997 and 2001 is considered one of if not the best eras in WWF and wrestling as a whole that helped revolutionise the direction the company was taking and the industry as a whole. It was home to many great matches, storylines and gimmicks. However it has been considered that it was home to some awful stuff as well including gimmicks which is what we will be focusing on for this topic.

    Your topic is to choose what and who you think had the worst gimmick in the Attitude Era. You must argue why you think yours is the best choice for being the worst and also why your choice is stronger than your opponents. I will allow team gimmicks and other non-wrestling characters as well as singles wrestlers.

    RULES

    Each participant will be allowed 3 posts each with a word cap of 400 words maximum per post. This must not be exceeded.
    No editing of posts is allowed. Once it is down it is down.
    Responses must be staggered. Each participant must wait until their opponent has gone until they can post again.
    No rebuttals are allowed for the person posting after their opponent original post. Once both opening posts are down then you may rebut your opponent's choice.
    Videos, gifs, pictures etc can be used and will not count towards the word count.
    If you quote your opponent, the quote will not count towards the word count. However if you choose to cite words from an article, outside source then those words will count.
    Ties will last exactly the one week and will be timestamped. No extensions will be allowed UNLESS there are extenuating circumstances.

    If all 6 posts are not in then they will be judged on what has been put down.
    For the opening posts, each person will have 48 hours maximum to respond. If the person chosen to go first has not responded then they may respond themselves in which case the other person has 48 hours to respond. If there are no responses within those 48 hour periods then whoever has posted will win automatically.
    For all participants and anyone posting in the discussion thread, please do not comment on the ties while they are going on.
    Once the ties have been completed, it will be down to the 3 judges to judge on who they think did best and to PM their votes to me. They will know this already but please give reasoning for your votes.

    The coin toss has revealed that Defrost will be going first!

    Happy Debating! Any questions about your individual ties then please PM me.
    Last edited by Badger; September 19th, 2022 at 12:13 AM.

  2. #2
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    The second I read this prompt one man came to mind. That would be Chaz aka Mosh aka Beaver Cleavage.

    To refresh your memory in case it isn't burnt in there like it is mine. The Headbangers were a tag team that was supposed to reflect like 1990s mosh pit culture. Mosh's partner Thrasher got injured in 1999 and he was repacked as Beaver Cleavage with his mother Mrs. Cleavage. They were a parody of a TV show from the 1950s called Leave it to Beaver which has the reputation of being the most wholesome tv show of all time. The gimmick here was real Russo stuff where the joke every time would be about Beaver sucking on his mother's tits.




    In another Russo trope one week Beaver comes out and cuts a worked shoot promo saying his name is really Chaz and that Mrs. Cleavage is his girlfriend. Now this is all garbage on its own, but here is where things take a turn to all time bad. Chaz dumps her on Smackdown and then she shows up on Raw with a black eye. So now the company that had up until that point bragged about never doing things like murder & rape when criticized for how adult the product had gotten was doing a domestic violence angle. This played out with all of the wrestlers beating the shit out of Chaz for being a woman beater. That is until it was revealed that she was lying. He never hit her. Cause bitches be crazy right Vinny Ru?

    As god awful as the original angle was, as tiresome as the second angle was, and as offensive as the third angle was this last twist enters this into a realm all of its own in its portrayal of a woman lying about abuse. All of Vince Russo's weird hang up with women exploding in the worst possible way.

  3. #3
    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    ANNOUNCEMENT

    MTR has had to drop out so his spot is up for grabs. I’ve offered it to Spudz as he was showing interest but he hasn’t confirmed yet. If anyone not in the game reading this wants to take the spot now and gets in there first then they are welcome to it.

    If nobody takes the spot by Saturday morning then Defrost will advance automatically as not fair on him to wait about. Hopefully it won’t come to that though.

    On this occasion only I may do a small extension by two days at most depending on when the spot is accepted.
    Last edited by Badger; September 15th, 2022 at 7:07 AM. Reason: Gonna be busy Friday so offer open til Saturday morning

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    (Does the fanny pack make the man, or does the man make the fanny pack? You decide!)

    When I was tasked with thinking of the absolute lowest of the low, bottom of the barrel, most terrible, Worst Gimmick Of The Attitude Era, only two names sprung to my mind:

    NAKED MIDEON

    For those of you fortunate enough to miss this abomination in its time, I'd like to introduce you to Dennis Knight. The unfortunate perpetrator of this monstrous gimmick. After several years on the indies, teaming with eventual WWF tag-team partner Henry 'O Godwinn in another gimmick in WCW (as the masked Texas Hangmen), Knight would debut in the WWF in 1996 as Phineas I. Godwinn (or, PIG, get it?). He'd be repackaged after several years teaming with Henry Godwinn as a member of Southern Justice, heavies for a then-repackaged Jeff Jarrett. And eventually, Dennis Knight would be kidnapped, beaten up, and brainwashed into being a follower of Undertaker's cult of midcard dudes, The Ministry of Darkness.

    Following the eventual dissolution of The Ministry and a mediocre tag-team with Viscera, Mideon would be repackaged one last time as a literal streaker.



    The gimmick was as simple as it was terrible. As a lumpy, fat dude, Mideon would streak through arenas all across the country, in nothing more than a fanny pack and a pair of boots. To the delight of nobody, he'd interrupt segments, matches, and angles by streaking his flabby naked ass through arenas all across the country.

    Somehow, by some God awful cosmic mistake in the Wrestling Universe, Naked Mideon, on the strength of nothing more than blitzing through arenas at random in the suit he was born in, and wrestling some occasional (very bad) matches, even managed to get a title match. A European Title match against William Regal on Pay-Per-View. At No Mercy 2000, Regal defended the belt against Mideon. A Mideon who, thankfully, started the match clothed, but then stripped for a failed comeback, before Regal was able to sneak one in and beat him.

    Luckily, after that, we saw a dramatic drop in the use of our favorite nude sprinter. Mideon was very free and open with his body, but the bookers apparently weren't as enamored with him. The Attitude Era is well known for being a time period where everybody, from the main event players to the bottom feeders of the time were all given something, anything, to do. Naked Mideon baring it all on TV week-in and week-out is an example of when that clearly wasn't the best idea.

    Next time, just keep your clothes on.



    And yes, Mideon -- That means you.
    Last edited by Spudz Mackenzie; September 15th, 2022 at 10:37 PM.

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    Here we see the difference between bad and offensive.

    Now Naked Mideon is not what anyone would consider high art, but when you think about it how much difference was there between him and Rikishi. Rikishi a 400 lb Samoan who wore a thong and grinded his opponent's faces between his ass cheeks. Naked Mideon was showed up now and then and really wasn't very naked on the USA network. Rikishi had his dimpled ass out all the time.

    On the other hand let's take a look at this video



    The cops show up in the middle of this match to arrest Chaz for beating his girlfriend

    Let me repeat that. The police come to the ring during this match to arrest Chaz for beating his girlfriend.

    Then Thrasher comes back because everyone was clamoring for that and in a GTV segment, remember those going nowhere, shows the former Mrs. Cleavage to be applying makeup to fake a blackeye.

    All of this is done to deafening silence on a taped show.

    So now you have a storyline in front of a mostly young male crowd about how when women go to the authorities for help in an abusive relationship they're actually lying bitches.

    Listen to the reaction when the cops arrest her instead. There is a pop where there was silence. Meaning one of two things. Either the Bitches Be Crazy think worked with the worst possible demographic you want that to work with, or being a taped show the WWF decided that this was the time to pipe in the cheers. Either way that's mind bogglingly terrible

    Naked Mideon is bad, but this right here goes beyond bad into the realm of the truly offensive.

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    Now Naked Mideon is not what anyone would consider high art, but when you think about it how much difference was there between him and Rikishi. Rikishi a 400 lb Samoan who wore a thong and grinded his opponent's faces between his ass cheeks. Naked Mideon was showed up now and then and really wasn't very naked on the USA network. Rikishi had his dimpled ass out all the time.


    Comparing Naked Mideon to Rikishi is like comparing a fresh bushel of oranges to a rotting basket of apples dipped in battery acid and thrown in a cesspit of fecal matter. Did a lot of Rikishi's gimmick revolve around his gargantuan ass? Yeah. Back dat ass up. But the difference is, Rikishi proved he could work. He got over. He got undeniably popular. Then he had a run as a heel and got to work with Austin and The Rock. He he a great match in 2000 against Triple H for the World Title on an episode of Smackdown!. He took that absolutely wild bump through the turnip truck in the Hell In A Cell match at Armageddon 2000. None of that had to do, completely, with him sticking his bubble butt in people's faces.

    Naked Mideon's entire thing was just being naked. And it wasn't even clever. It had all the subtlety of a guy streaking on a live Football game. Maybe Vince Russo saw the "Bodysuit Man" episode of "Seinfeld" and just found the lowest dude on the totem pole to make do it. Unlike Rikishi, it didn't get over. It got under. It was embarrassing. Em-bare-ass-ing.

    And the worst part; It was more or less the last thing Mideon ever did. Yeah, its not like Dennis Knight had a ton of high-quality matches to his name. Its not like he had any epic title runs. But he had a few years as a solid tag-team specialist and a prolific career where he was never not in the bigs. But the last thing anyone remembers poor Mr. Knight for, before he retired to be a successful chef, was being the fat guy streaking his pale, pasty white ass across your TV screen.

    Meanwhile, your choice is a historic footnote. Chaz/Mosh had a crummy gimmick and a few ill-advised angles on TV (in The Attitude Era, *GASP*), before his partner came back and they went back to what worked. They wiped the slate clean after a few months and The Headbangers were back in business. The 'Bangers never achieved the success they did in 1997, but remember, they were one of the first TV feuds for a newly debuting Dudley Boys. They even got to work with them in a Survivor Series match at Survivor Series 2000. They own a TV win over the Dudleys on RAW.
    Last edited by kdestiny; September 18th, 2022 at 10:24 AM. Reason: Too many words

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    If this were a debate about whether Rikishi had gotten more over than Naked Mideon you might have had me, but that was not the point I was making. It was a simple nudity comparison. It's not as if the USA Network was allowing zoom in shots of Dennis Knight's yam bag. You were not seeing much more than Rikishi had spilling out, and by your own admission everyone was fine with that. Hell when Vince would do the Kiss My Ass club you saw more of him than you ever really did Mideon. As a matter of fact the biggest problem with Naked Mideon is false advertising.

    A few ill-advised tv angles? That's one helluva understatement. Let's look at some FBI data of homicides in the year 1999 when this took place via the Violence Policy Center.

    https://vpc.org/publications/when-me...-introduction/

    In 1999, there were 1,750 females murdered by males in single victim/single offender incidents that were submitted to the FBI for its Supplementary Homicide Report.g These highlights from the report, expanded upon in the following sections, dispel many of the myths propounded by the gun lobby regarding the nature of lethal violence against women:

    More than 11 times as many females were murdered by a male they knew (1,521 victims) than were killed by male strangers (133 victims).
    Sixty percent (917) of female homicide victims were wives or intimate acquaintance of their killers.
    There were 317 women shot and killed by either their husband or intimate acquaintance during the course of an argument nearly one woman a day.
    Again this was a company that at the time was defending itself about its content by saying they never showed murder or rape. Then in a world where women are more likely to be killed by a boyfriend or husband than anyone else they run an angle where a woman lies about being abused. First it's made clear everyone believes her. The wrestlers and refs ostracized Chaz only to be shown to be fools thus making them victims of the evil woman. Telling their young male audience to never trust women. Given recent events I wonder why Vince McMahon would want to convey that message. A serial abuser overseeing such an angle is more than a little ill-advised.

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    And this is where you lost me.

    Right here.

    Going into real life FBI statistics on murder and homicide rates and all other manner of hard, real life factoids.

    WWF isn't real life. WWF isn't indicative of what anybody thinks people should be doing in real life. Yeah, Chaz played a character who had fake allegations made against him by his girlfriend. Its a bad, tasteless angle, but is it any worse than say... Terri Runnels' "miscarriage" on TV, or Vince McMahon forcing Trish Stratus to bark like a dog, or Marc Mero verbally abusing Sable, or Perry Saturn bumping his head and talking to a mop, or Jeff Jarrett woman beater, or Bubba Ray Dudley putting women through tables because it makes him horny? Or Undertaker trying to sacrifice Stephanie McMahon on a Satanic symbol?

    No. It was a couple months of typical, Vince Russo's bad, Jerry Springer bullshit booking. And then it was forgotten about.

    To quote myself:

    Meanwhile, your choice is a historic footnote. Chaz/Mosh had a crummy gimmick and a few ill-advised angles on TV (in The Attitude Era, *GASP*), before his partner came back and they went back to what worked. They wiped the slate clean after a few months and The Headbangers were back in business. The 'Bangers never achieved the success they did in 1997, but remember, they were one of the first TV feuds for a newly debuting Dudley Boys. They even got to work with them in a Survivor Series match at Survivor Series 2000. They own a TV win over the Dudleys on RAW.
    The WWF course-corrected. They turned Chaz back into Mosh, put him back with his original partner and started using him in what worked. Again, first TV feud for the Dudleys. Got to work with them on pay-per-view. Even when Mosh was switched back to Chaz, he had a very underrated team with D'Lo Brown. A team that had title matches, pay-per-view appearances, and even got to have a memorable segment at the Royal Rumble 2001. Heck, The Headbangers even got to return for a little run in 2016.

    Mideon never got any of that. No, we didn't get altogether too many loving closeups of Mideon's naked ass. But we can all thank God for small miracles.

    Your choice had a short run of bad luck and, in the words of Jim Cornette, "tripped over some bad booking". Then it was all swept away and forgot about. Mideon never had that luxury.

    Chaz/Mosh got to go out in a reasonably decent fashion for somebody of his stature.

    Mideon just got to put on a pair of pants.

  9. #9
    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    ROUND OVER
    @Mazer @Psycho666Soldier please send me your votes. I’ll break it if there’s a tie.

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    As Spudz has been permanently banned, I’m going to have to give this one to @Defrost by default.
    @Mazer @Psycho666Soldier don’t bother voting on this one.

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    I have no doubt in my mind Spudz would've lost regardless of how good/bad his debating skills were lol. Defrost had a great pick, defended it well. Spudz had a good pick, defended it well.

    What I think would've been interesting is if there was a real connection between those stats from the FBI and this angle. When reading it at first I was like oh shit did the FBI or someone of that nature come after the WWE over this angle? Spudz last post rattling off (IMO) far worse angles than a woman lying about being abused--and he mentioned Sable/Marc Mero which was about a year or so prior and very intense. Defrost pretty much shutting down Naked Mideon as a complete joke, very good way to rebuttal.

    Defrost shitting on Russo was pretty slick too. But I do have to say that during this time they were addressing many different things in the world. So writing this off as 'bitches be crazy' when a year prior there was the Sable/Mero angle...Yeah like he said, murder and rape, I think religion was the other, anytime they dabble in that shit it backfires. They killed Vince, and then Benoit legit killed his family the next week.......We haven't seen rape yet but damn near close with Kurt Angle and Sharmell right? So when they come with this approach that we shouldn't always believe the victim--it's a good angle if executed well. We've seen it done to perfection on tv and movies, this was just the wrong character to do it with.
    Last edited by Nash Diesel; September 22nd, 2022 at 2:17 PM.

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    Yeah gonna give my own feedback here as well.

    If I were breaking this tie, I think Defrost bringing up the FBI stats correlation like Nash said could have been expanded upon more and felt maybe it was a bit of a waste of his third post in a way. Buuut I felt he had enough strength in his second post pointing out the difference between bad and offensive between Naked Mideon and Chaz, especially bringing out the arrest angle and how it got no reaction because the audience was uncomfortable.

    He did enough to earn his place. @Mazer @Psycho666Soldier though you don’t have to vote, if you want you could briefly comment how you felt if you choose to.

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    F this & JC that mth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I have no doubt in my mind Spudz would've lost regardless of how good/bad his debating skills were lol. Defrost had a great pick, defended it well. Spudz had a good pick, defended it well.

    What I think would've been interesting is if there was a real connection between those stats from the FBI and this angle. When reading it at first I was like oh shit did the FBI or someone of that nature come after the WWE over this angle? Spudz last post rattling off (IMO) far worse angles than a woman lying about being abused--and he mentioned Sable/Marc Mero which was about a year or so prior and very intense. Defrost pretty much shutting down Naked Mideon as a complete joke, very good way to rebuttal.

    Defrost shitting on Russo was pretty slick too. But I do have to say that during this time they were addressing many different things in the world. So writing this off as 'bitches be crazy' when a year prior there was the Sable/Mero angle...Yeah like he said, murder and rape, I think religion was the other, anytime they dabble in that shit it backfires. They killed Vince, and then Benoit legit killed his family the next week.......We haven't seen rape yet but damn near close with Kurt Angle and Sharmell right? So when they come with this approach that we shouldn't always believe the victim--it's a good angle if executed well. We've seen it done to perfection on tv and movies, this was just the wrong character to do it with.
    Kane and Lita...?

  14. #14
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mth View Post
    Kane and Lita...?
    I don't recall the details of that whole angle. Did they show a scene of Kane raping her or did they imply she was raped and that's how she got pregnant? I don't want to get into a big debate about that word but I seem to remember it wasn't rape as much as it was Now we're married you have to sex with me because I'm your husband? Again I could be wrong I just don't remember seeing anything that would be what you'd see as a forced, violent sexual encounter.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    What about Triple H and Stephanie? Did she really get drugged or was she just pretending? I can't remember if she was in on it the whole time or she was down after the fact.

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    F this & JC that mth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I don't recall the details of that whole angle. Did they show a scene of Kane raping her or did they imply she was raped and that's how she got pregnant? I don't want to get into a big debate about that word but I seem to remember it wasn't rape as much as it was Now we're married you have to sex with me because I'm your husband? Again I could be wrong I just don't remember seeing anything that would be what you'd see as a forced, violent sexual encounter.
    Here's the wonderful details to refresh you...
    Quote Originally Posted by https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1732277-the-5-most-bizarre-wwe-storylines-of-all-time
    Whatever the Hell Happened with Kane and Lita

    In 2004, Kane decided to beat up Matt Hardy every week. Matt's girlfriend Lita was horrified by this and tried to find a way to stop it. Kane decided to woo Lita by kidnapping her and eventually declared that he'd stop beating up Matt and menacing her under one condition: he would get to spend a night of passion with her.

    And she agreed.

    Really.

    Kane's evil intentions didn't stop there: The monster wanted to breed, so he poked a hole in the condom that Lita insisted on using. Yes, she was pregnant via Kane. Kane was an honorable monster, though, so he wanted to marry Lita. Somehow this led to a Hardy vs Kane match where the winner got to marry Lita...and Kane won.

    Within a few months, it seemed like someone realized that dragging this out for the length of a full-term pregnancy wasn't feasible. The way out? Developmental wrestler Gene Snitsky knocked Kane into Lita, who miscarried—and then, all of a sudden, Kane was a babyface defending Lita's honor against Snitsky.

    The Kane/Lita alliance lasted for several months—WAY too long—and ended with Lita turning on him to join up with Edge. Edge feuded with Kane for a little while before the storyline was finally put to bed.

    To summarize:
    Matt Hardy was such a weakling he couldn't defend his girlfriend from Kane.
    Kane kidnapped Lita.
    Kane raped Lita both by coercing her into the act to prevent his assaults on her and Matt AND sabotaging the condom.
    Kane totally cuckholded Hardy in the process.
    Lita miscarried and then joined forces with her rapist (I get that a miscarriage would be traumatic under any circumstances, but...geez).
    Lita turning on Kane made her a bad person.

    Thank God WWE decided to make their programming more family-friendly.
    Last edited by mth; September 22nd, 2022 at 9:13 PM.

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    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Aye. Snitsky was right and despite him pushing Lita down and kicking a fake baby into the crowd, it wasn’t his fault! Kane’s for involuntarily planting the demon seedling within her!

    #Wasn’tmyfault Yet Kane was the face lol.

  18. #18
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Ok so me personally and who I am to define terms but I wouldn't call that rape I'd call that blackmail. Poking a hole in the condom?? See this is where you have to take into consideration the character. Like I would be offended if it was Matt Hardy doing that or Chris Jericho. But Kane...and the whole morbid, supernatural sexual shit that has surrounded that character since day one....I'm going to still say WWE has yet to have a rape angle but I will allow Trips "raping" a doll pretending it to be Katie Vick's corpse for segment.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Aye. Snitsky was right and despite him pushing Lita down and kicking a fake baby into the crowd, it wasn’t his fault! Kane’s for involuntarily planting the demon seedling within her!

    #Wasn’tmyfault Yet Kane was the face lol.
    You know some people were probably applauding Snitsky for saving the mother's life. Who wants to birth Satan??

  20. #20
    F this & JC that mth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    Ok so me personally and who I am to define terms but I wouldn't call that rape I'd call that blackmail. Poking a hole in the condom?? See this is where you have to take into consideration the character. Like I would be offended if it was Matt Hardy doing that or Chris Jericho. But Kane...and the whole morbid, supernatural sexual shit that has surrounded that character since day one....I'm going to still say WWE has yet to have a rape angle but I will allow Trips "raping" a doll pretending it to be Katie Vick's corpse for segment.
    Blackmailing someone into having sex with you is rape, my dude. But yeah, it was fine because he's a big scary monster man...

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    Assuming Nash advances as well, I got their semi question at the ready!
    @mth vs @Nash Diesel “Gene Snitsky! Was it really his fault??”

    Hopefully one of you kicks a doll into the Rajah crowd and the judge’s hands. Could help you lol!

  22. #22
    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Of course jokes and being impartial judge here and will come down to RNG.

    If Nash and kdes win and they get each other again then….soz!

  23. #23
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mth View Post
    Blackmailing someone into having sex with you is rape, my dude. But yeah, it was fine because he's a big scary monster man...
    It wasn't The Accused.

  24. #24
    World Champion Dave Wyndorf's Avatar
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    usa
    Snitsky was my favorite for a few years there.

  25. #25
    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wyndorf View Post
    Snitsky was my favorite for a few years there.
    I stand corrected said me in orthopaedic shoes on post #21.

    Dave gets the Gene Snitsky question if he advances against mth or Nash (advancement depending).

  26. #26
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Gene Snitsky v. Chuck Palumbo should've been a main event at Mania.

  27. #27
    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Gene Snitsky vs Nathan Jones should’ve also been a Mania main event.

  28. #28
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Gene Snitsky vs Nathan Jones should’ve also been a Mania main event.
    I would pay to see them fight in the streets.

  29. #29
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    I hereby award this debate to defrost.

    Spudz getting banned was a controversial move, and although it could have worked for some-it did not work out here.


    Also, Defrost had the better choice and formed the best thesis on why it should be considered such.

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