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Thread: FICTION FIGHT GRAND FINAL - Mazer (as Topanga Matthews) vs Mikey_Jones (Desperate Dan

  1. #1
    Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    FICTION FIGHT GRAND FINAL - Mazer (as Topanga Matthews) vs Mikey_Jones (Desperate Dan

    @Mazer (as Topanga Matthews) vs @Mikey_Jones (as Desperate Dan)

    TALE OF THE TAPE

    TOPANGA MATTHEWS

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazer
    Topanga Lawrence

    Might edit more in later.

    Main Abilities:
    Topanga went through law school while pregnant and supporting her husband's teaching career. Graduated top of her class. And she made partner while raising her two kids. Such a shark that her firm basically gives her whatever she wants. They now maintain a spacious apartment in a gentrified area of New York. And she bought a bakery/cafe in her spare time, and pulled her kids friends' mom from career failure to successful bakery/cafe, because of course she did. And still raises her kids, husband, kids' friends, kid down the hall, and whoever else she runs into. What the fuck are you doing with your life?

    Never loses. Catchphrase is "I win". Is somehow still a humble person.

    Can change any person's life by engaging them in a 2-5 minute life lesson conversation.

    Was wiccan as a child. Can still tap into that side whenever she wants. Magic powers

    Literal Angel on Earth

    vs


    DESPERATE DAN





    Powers/Abilities: Dan is extremely strong (he once won the World's Strongest Man Competition by lifting all his fellow competitors and the items they were lifting), and invulnerable - he doesn't flinch when buildings are dropped on him, shaves using a blow torch (because razors break when he tries to use them) and blows up mines by attaching magnets to himself so they float into him and detonate, leaving him unharmed. On at least one occasion he sucks in a load of gas and then lights it as he breathes out, allowing him to blow out a prolonged jet of flame for long enough to bake a house-sized loaf of bread. At least some of his strength is derived from the cow pies he eats.








    Well this it folks! Brains vs Braun Beauty vs Beast and David vs Goliath rolled into one? Who will prevail in this titanic struggle. And I mean TITANIC



    Yes that’s right, you are fighting aboard the Titanic! Using the Time Machine of Guam I have transported you both to the Titanic the ship that famously crashed into an iceberg on April 15th 1912. However you are transported to the day the Titanic first set sail on April 10th 1912. Your mission should you choose to accept it is to finish your opponent and also alter time you could try and steer from the iceberg unless you want to use it in your argument. But yeah you’re both at the start of the journey. Everything equipped on the ship at the time is available plus the original crew and passengers are also on board.

    RULES

    - 3 posts each over 7 days which will be timestamped after this post.
    - 600 word count maximum per post. If the word count goes over then everything after the 600th word will be cut off.
    - Posts must be staggered so whoever goes first must wait til their opponent has responded before they can go again.
    - No editing. Once the post is in it is in.
    - No rebuttals to each other on the first set of posts. Once everyone has posted first time around then it is fair game to rebut. Don’t mention your opponent (s) in the first set of posts.
    - Post links, videos, images gifs etc to your heart's content! These will not count towards the word count.
    - Quoting your opponent does not count towards the word count however using words from an outside source/article/reference will count.
    - Adding anything extra that is outside the abilities of the"Tale of The Tape" is fine but you must provide a source material.





    Using the DICE OF DEATH. I gave Mazer numbers 1-3 and Mikey 4-6. I rolled a 5 so Mikey_Jones goes first



    That's everything so....

    Last edited by Badger; September 30th, 2021 at 4:15 AM. Reason: Typo in the rules

  2. #2
    OK at Madden Mikey_Jones's Avatar
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    There is no denying how strong and immense Desperate Dan is by this point. He’s dispatched of three strong foes and now finds himself on a cruise ship. In a one on one battle, Dan wins easily. No question. But on a ship that is about to become the largest maritime disaster with over 1,500 dead from the estimated 2,224 passengers and crew? With the ship hitting an iceberg in the middle of the freezing North Atlantic? That’s different and it’s no surprise that so many were frozen to death in the icy waters - it often caused death within minutes as it was around -2C. Anyone who wasn’t fortunate enough to get into a lifeboat stood little chance of survival.

    Unless your name is Desperate Dan, of course.

    Not only is Dan incredibly bloody strong and capable of beating three incredibly tough foes but it turns out that our Desperate Dan is no stranger to water!





    There he is, enjoying a quick swim in an icy-cold lake and seemingly going at some speed! But swimming isn’t the only way that Dan can traverse water:









    Yep, Desperate Dan is very well prepared for an aquatic adventure. He can use anything from random kayaks to run across the water to creating his own water wheel bicycle contraption to peddle across the NORTH ATLANTIC OCEAN (where the Titanic drowned). Notice in the fourth image how he is rowing back to America from Scotland, meaning he has clearly successfully navigated these cold and dangerous waters twice. Excellent experience for when the Titanic inevitably sinks - Dan has multiple ways to survive these icy waters. However, despite the 1,500 people dead there were ~700 survivors of the Titanic, famously women and children who were loaded onto the lifeboats. Dan only needs a fishbowl on his head to be able to walk and survive underwater, which makes a lot of sense when you remember how powerful his lungs are. Speaking of which:



    As an accident, Dan virtually created a hurricane and destroyed numerous ships with just his breath. Going back to my fourth image and previous debates, I’ve mentioned the damage and destruction Dan causes. It’s easy to imagine how much damage Dan could do if he was locked in a battle to the death against a foe he actually wanted to harm - it wouldn’t surprise me if Dan ends up causing the Titanic to sink by himself, plunging the ship into icy waters! When that happens, Dan is in a comfortable environment to survive and take out anyone who would have somehow survived.

  3. #3
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    You never thought Topanga would get here.


    You thought the Pride of Polk High, The Killing Machine, or the Rabbit who defies the very laws of physics would be Topanga’s undoing.

    So…this is the part where I talk about Topanga again.




    I’ve already spelled out how Topanga’s brilliant, how she’s shrewd, how she’ll use every advantage she has to win. You know her backstory. She’s the one who overcame adversity to raise a beautiful family, while still working herself up to the rank of partner in a multi-national law firm. She’s the competitive soul, who somehow didn’t sell her soul. But she’ll do anything for her family.


    Topanga is an individual with a rare ability to not just learn quickly, but to adapt and utilize knowledge.

    Here’s something you may not: Topanga got an A in psychology.




    Why is that relevant?

    Topanga understands Fundamental Attribution Error.

    The fundamental attribution error (also known as correspondence bias or over-attribution effect) is the tendency for people to over-emphasize dispositional, or personality-based explanations for behaviors observed in others while under-emphasizing situational explanations.
    Source: https://www.simplypsychology.org/fun...tribution.html


    Its true that Topanga has amazing intelligence, grit, and a host of valuable traits. However, Topanga has also learned to not underestimate the power of situation. Her experiences helping people get back on their feet and seeing them overcome their circumstances have shown her the pathway to success in the face of overwhelming odds.

    She hasn’t gone into any of these fights thinking that she can just list out her accomplishments and win.



    Topanga doesn’t assume that because she’s spent her life as a winner, that it was only due to her personal traits. She’s never underestimated the situational factors in her success.


    But anyone can claim their character is brilliant. Anyone can claim that a character has an ability or understands something. We can all put out a brilliant strategy and claim our character would have thought of it.
    But for it to fly in a debate, the behavior and tendencies have to be established. Because anything we claim has to be demonstrated in our character’s patterns, history, and current abilities.


    And that’s what you’ve seen with Topanga up to this point. We’ve seen how Topanga’s history, attributes, connections, and situational awareness have allowed her to come out ahead.

    Now, we’ve placed Topanga on the Titanic. You know she’s researched the history, lay-out, and really everything about that boat. Hell, given her age, she definitely loved the Titanic movie.
    And she’s got a plan. She’s got several. Its completely in her character.



    In the book, David and Goliath: Underdogs, Misfits, and the Art of Battling Giants, Malcolm Gladwell outlined how situations which seem unwinnable often turn out differently than we expect.

    “Israeli minister of defense Moshe Dayan—the architect of Israel’s astonishing victory in the 1967 Six-Day War—also wrote an essay on the story of David and Goliath. According to Dayan, “David fought Goliath not with inferior but (on the contrary) with superior weaponry; and his greatness consisted not in his being willing to go out into battle against someone far stronger than he was. But in his knowing how to exploit a weapon by which a feeble person could seize the advantage and become stronger.”
    ― Malcolm Gladwell, David and Goliath: Underdogs, Misfits, and the Art of Battling Giants



    Topanga is going to turn this situation to her advantage again. She won't play by conventional rules.

    We will see together how Topanga utilizes her capabilities to exploit her opponent the situation.


    Once again, you'll hear the refrain:




  4. #4
    OK at Madden Mikey_Jones's Avatar
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    Both competitors have been transported aboard the Titanic on April 10th, 1912. To paint a picture of what 1912 was like:

    • Women’s suffrage would be granted in the UK in 1918, and in the US in 1920.
    • It would be another five years because a woman was elected to Congress
    • It would be another seven years until women were allowed to be barristers and solicitors in the UK.
    • The first female captain of an ocean-going ship wasn’t to happen for another 23 years


    As for the Titanic itself, there were 885 crew members of which just 23 were female. These 23 female crew members were either stewardesses or matrons. There were certainly some important female passengers on board though, such as the Unsinkable Molly Brown, who was a leading figure in women’s suffrage, and Elsie Bowerman who was to become the first female barrister in the UK as referenced above.

    So 1912 was a bad time to be a woman. More importantly, there were some powerful women on the Titanic but certainly not in any position to influence things.

    So why the hell does Topanga Matthews think she has ANY chance of changing things?

    Despite all that you say, she is still a woman who has been transported back 100 years before her time. No amount of reading or supposed knowledge can change the way society views women. No matter how many A’s Topanga managed to receive in school as a child, she hasn’t had the same impact on the world as people like Molly Brown or Elsie Bowerman and they were helpless to prevent the sinking of the Titanic. Topanga Matthews would be ignored for the simple fact that she is a woman onboard a cruise ship in 1912. She would be laughed off or ignored, the ramblings of a madwoman - after all, it’s well known that the Titanic is unsinkable!



    This nicely brings me back to Desperate Dan. It’s been pointed out numerous times, with evidence, that Dan is one of the most powerful men in the world. It has also been pointed out occasionally that Desperate Dan can be destructive without realising it. Let’s refer back to the first debate:



    His stomach rumble alone is enough to destroy brick and mortar, and we’ve seen how easily he can destroy other boats and rooms throughout the debates. Which leads to my second main point:

    Even if Topanga Matthews could somehow convince enough people for the Titanic to survive…

    ...what’s to stop Desperate Dan from destroying the Titanic anyway, either on purpose or by mistake?


    The Titanic is going down, either by iceberg or by Dan. Once it’s going down, Dan will adapt to the situation, survive and even take out the other lifeboats. Topanga is a woman who likely wouldn’t even be rescued as she isn’t privileged and white. She would die in the icy waters, assuming she isn’t crushed instantly upon meeting Dan aboard the Titanic.

    The other point to consider, of course, is that Dan will be actively hunting Topanga down. She does seem to like being the centre of attention so it shouldn't be too hard for Dan to find her and crush her tiny skull in. A man of such immense strength would have no problems at all in a 1 on 1 fight
    Last edited by Mikey_Jones; September 30th, 2021 at 6:08 PM.

  5. #5
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    Man, 1912 sounds like a bad time for Topanga to try to be a boat captain.



    Really though, Topanga knows her legal history. Exercising official power would have never been her strategy. More on that later.


    First let’s look at Dan.







    The man is not exactly a tactical genius. Some adhesive and a mirror convinces him he grew horns.



    Here.... Dan is easily defeated with a simple mallet.



    On a boat full of mechanics, she can very easily have Dan set up to punch another device.

    Or Topanga can have a kid tell Dan his Aunt Aggie trapped in an iceberg. Or she can tell Dan that he should forget this whole business, because “Who should be able to tell Dan what to do” and to go find the treasure at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean. There’s just literally tons of options here.



    She’s smart. He’s not. She read his history, and can honestly just trick him like Corky the Cat.



    But let’s go back to Mikey’s points....because there’s a lot to unpack there


    I had a slew of cartoons showing Dan’s clumsiness. But Mikey has already stated this point. Left to himself, Dan would sink the Titanic. What surprised me was this line:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey_Jones View Post
    it wouldn’t surprise me if Dan ends up causing the Titanic to sink by himself, plunging the ship into icy waters! When that happens, Dan is in a comfortable environment to survive and take out anyone who would have somehow survived.
    I mean, the comics kinda show Dan as a lovable buffoon, with an occasional temper. Now Mike is suggesting that Dan literally murders hundreds of people, and kills anyone who survives the initial assault.



    But let me break a debate rule and agree with Mikey. Dan could sink the Titanic....causing the most famous nautical tragedy in history. And he would become the most wanted man in the world.




    If he ran away from some people who were mad at him about crashes, what’s he going to do when the literal world is against him?
    When is Aunt Aggie is held until he turns himself in. In my plan, Dan loses because of his own ineptness. In Mikey’s .....Dan loses, because he’s not a God and he can’t beat the world after he kills hundreds of people.



    So that brings us to Mikey’s points about Topanga’s survival chances. Mikey helpfully links an article about the Titanic and gives us his reason Topanga won’t survive.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey_Jones View Post
    Topanga is a woman who likely wouldn’t even be rescued as she isn’t privileged and white.

    Because Mikey seems to have made some assumptions based on either Topanga’s name or history of taking on challenges, supporting immigrants ets (or maybe the tint on his screen is off?)…..Let’s meet the Lawrences:

    You all know Topanga








    Let’s also meet her parents:




    Not that she would, but she could go to a Bryan Adams concert wearing birkenstocks and socks - and she wouldn’t look out of place.


    Mikey’s assertion here is invalidated



    She also has the ability to mesh with upper society when she wants to, based on her upbringing and capabilities. Mikey seems to project that woman at that time would have no ability to win with guile, because they lacked title. The Female spies of World War 1 ( https://www.ukessays.com/essays/hist...tory-essay.php) would disagree.




    Dan is powerful.,,,Dan is not God. Dan is easily tricked. Dan loses focus. Topanga does not. Whether by her own methods or Dan’s ability to become the world’s most wanted man, Topanga is able to change the game to take Dan off the board.




    Because Topanga Matthews is playing chess while Dan is knocking over a checkers board.



  6. #6
    OK at Madden Mikey_Jones's Avatar
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    There are a huge amount of claims without any evidence to back them up. For instance:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazer View Post
    On a boat full of mechanics, she can very easily have Dan set up to punch another device.
    I’m sorry, what? Did you miss the part where she is a woman in 1912? How is she going to get them to make a device? They would laugh her out of the room.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazer View Post
    Or she can tell Dan that he should forget this whole business, because “Who should be able to tell Dan what to do” and to go find the treasure at the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean.
    One of your plans is to WALK UP to Desperate Dan and somehow survive? Preposterous. I thought she was smart? Dan isn’t trying to beat Korky the Cat, unlike Topanga. He would easily crush Topanga upon seeing and meeting her. He’s a klutz, but put someone in front of him who he knows he has to beat? No contest:



    Quote Originally Posted by Mazer View Post
    The man is not exactly a tactical genius. Some adhesive and a mirror convinces him he grew horns.
    This statement makes no sense in regards to the comic you posted? It actually highlights how destructive Dan can be (more on that later!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazer View Post
    She also has the ability to mesh with upper society when she wants to, based on her upbringing and capabilities. Mikey seems to project that woman at that time would have no ability to win with guile, because they lacked title. The Female spies of World War 1 ( https://www.ukessays.com/essays/hist...tory-essay.php) would disagree.
    Her upbringing where she is the daughter of a guitar-playing hippie who owned a bookstore?

    ...right.

    Also, it’s stupid and quite frankly insulting to compare Topanga Matthews to the female spies of World War 1 and insane to argue that a junior partner in a law firm is of equal ability to these women. Trying to insinuate that Topanga shares equal guile (again, without any evidence) is awful. The point still stands that Topanga would not mesh with upper society, nor have any substantial impact on the Titanic.

    Just three claims there that are complete bullshit in amongst many others. There’s a lot of this from Topanga, such as claiming to have several plans on how to win but then not stating a single one to actually beat Dan.

    BUT let us say she does, SOMEHOW, manage to get onto a lifeboat. Let’s say she SOMEHOW manages to overcome the huge odds. You seem to think that this means she has won? I’ve highlighted how comfortable Dan is in the water and we’ve both agreed on how destructive Dan is, whether on purpose or by mistake. So let’s take another look at some of these moments:











    Notice a common theme? In each of them, Dan uses his destructive powers to take out whatever is in front of him. Regardless of whether it’s brick, mortar or entire buildings, Dan is powerful enough to destroy these things at a distance. Hell, as an accident he destroyed some other boats. So when Topanga is “safely” aboard a lifeboat, Dan possesses the ability to destroy and sink it. No amount of “blending in” will help Topanga as she quickly freezes in the icy cold waters.

    So whether it be by accident or on purpose, the lifeboats will be sunk and Dan will be victorious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazer View Post
    And he would become the most wanted man in the world.
    This has nothing to do with the fight. This debate is about who wins, not the after-effects after Dan survives and Topanga drowns in the North Atlantic.


    Overall, you haven’t stated, at all, how Topanga would actually win. You agree that Dan would sink the Titanic (great!) and state that Topanga would be able to get on a lifeboat. Maybe, maybe not. It’s questionable how much a girl could really blend into an environment 100 years in the past with little to no preparation - being randomly transported in a time machine to a battle to the death isn’t a scheduled event! If she doesn’t, she’ll drown. If she does, the lifeboats will be destroyed and she’ll drown. Dan is a natural strong swimmer and impervious to the icy cold waters. He even keeps a shark as a pet so they clearly won’t cause an issue as he swims to victory:


  7. #7
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    In post 1, I shared Gladwell’s findings on how underdogs regularly beat seemingly invincible foes.

    Key factors:
    Goliath underestimating the opponent
    David employing unconventional tactics/breaking rules



    In post 2, Mikey dismissed Topanga because she was female.

    This continues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey_Jones View Post
    I’m sorry, what? Did you miss the part where she is a woman in 1912? How is she going to get them to make a device? They would laugh her out of the room.


    Her upbringing where she is the daughter of a guitar-playing hippie who owned a bookstore?

    ...right.


    Also, it’s stupid and quite frankly insulting to compare Topanga Matthews to the female spies of World War 1 and insane to argue that a junior partner in a law firm is of equal ability to these women. Trying to insinuate that Topanga shares equal guile (again, without any evidence) is awful. The point still stands that Topanga would not mesh with upper society, nor have any substantial impact on the Titanic.
    1-I understand why Mikey comes hot here. We’ve seen a cat and with a simple mallet device defeat Dan. He needs to completely debunk this point to win. So, Mikey says there’s….no way that Topanga could work from…mechanics….because…she’s a woman.

    I have professionally worked with mechanics for 20 years. If you don’t think an attractive women can get a favor from at least one mechanic…

    Again-Topanga will use her wiles.






    Or- she could just pay the mechanics.


    2- Mikey’s income analysis seems based on a post-Amazon world. Store Owners and ex-hippies could make money in the 90s. Its true. Topanga’s father’s income actually peaked as he progressed through 3 actors.



    Lawrence income is generational. Not just her parents went to Yale (See post 2). She repeatedly wears pieces of heirloom jewelry. She also has high income and expensive jewelry of her own now. All pieces would be of significant value compared to the normal 1912 market-giving her useful currency.


    3. Now we’re on fiction fight spy references being offensive? Are spies offended by being admirably compared to a beloved valedictorian/bakery owner/genius/mother/partner who was offered the top spot at the London office? Has Topanga not built a successful career out of verbal proficiency and intellectually outmaneuvering the legal world’s finest?

    Also-In “No Guts, No Cory”, Salem the Cat transports everyone back in time to the 40s (so not WWI, but not that far apart). Teenage Topanga refuses a pressured marriage, goes to post-war France, tracks down wounded/amnesiac Cory, and heals him.
    But sweet-talking a mechanic or conversing with upper class women is beyond her?

    Mikey is wrong about Topanga’s adaptability, family resources, and mechanics talking to women.



    Mikey wants to say that women can’t do essentially anything in 1912 -to focus solely on strength- because he understands Dan’s vulnerability.


    Strength of 50 men, brain of less than one”







    Dan ALWAYS falls for tricks. Simple disguises befuddle him. Kids can fool Dan. A brilliant, attractive woman can’t?


    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey_Jones View Post

    This has nothing to do with the fight. This debate is about who wins, not the after-effects after Dan survives and Topanga drowns in the North Atlantic.
    It’s questionable how much a girl could really blend into an environment 100 years in the past with little to no preparation - being randomly transported in a time machine to a battle to the death isn’t a scheduled event!

    Mikey wants to set his own rules here. Unfortunately, Fiction Fight has been around.


    Topanga knows she’s in a tourney and can prepare for an opponent. It’s the venue that’s unknown. Participants transport wearing items consistent with character (not naked). She obviously takes valuables that translate to any time or place with her (and she always wears jewelry).

    When Dan falls to a trap again- Topanga wins. Topanga researched her opponent -she has a plan.


    Mikey’s plan needs Dan to act against character-murdering hundreds of people. Dan does property damage, not mass-murder. Topanga can avoid an individual search by wearing a disguise.


    But even if that were to go wrong- Dan sinks the Titanic. Dan becomes hunted. He’s run from trouble previously. Mikey wants this to be irrelevant-it’s not.
    Topanga doesn’t need to kill Dan. Just outlast him.




    Dan will live his life hunted-away from his aunt’s cowpies that give him power. Dan’s not God, he eventually dwindles.
    Source: http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/d/despdan.htm

    Topanga just goes home.




    From the start, I’ve laid out paths to victory. Mikey denies they exist stating “they’re bullshit”. But strong words don’t equate to truth. Reason and consistency do.


    Intelligent women had influence before 1912. They could buy things and talk to people.


    Topanga wins, not because she benchpresses a cow. Because she outlasts and outthinks a cowpie brain.


    For every Goliath, there’s a David.

    Topanga is Dan’s.




  8. #8
    Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    ROUND OVER!

    We have reached the end at long last so who will take home the crown? Brawns or brain? Brutey or beauty? Todanga or Topanga? Your fate lies in the hands of our extended judging panel @CWE @Caito @Psycho666Soldier and @Jarrod1983. Please send your votes to me.

    If there’s a tie in the votes, we’ll sort out a tiebreaker.

  9. #9
    Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    JUDGE CWE



    Quote Originally Posted by CWE
    Jesus...make it difficult for us why don't you? I added boxing round scores to show how close I had it.

    Round 1

    Dan can survive in freezing water? Topanga's smarts aren't going to top that here.

    Dan wins 10-8

    Round 2

    Dan can sink the Titanic by accident or on purpose. That could be dangerous. Topanga uses her smarts even more and tries to recruit the crew to help.

    Topanga wins. (Barely) 10-9

    Round 3

    Dan just continues to brute force (duh.) while Topanga goes even harder into the brains department.

    Topanga wins 10-9

    So it all boils down to Topanga trying to outwit Dan's pure brute force. Dan's main downfall was probably not destroying the lifeboats. Topanga survives while Dan is hunted from sinking the Titanic. (Lets be honest...who's not letting TOPANGA on a fucking life raft).

    Topanga wins 2 rounds to 1 (with a final score of 28-28)

    Excellent job by both of you.
    JUDGE JARROD1983



    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod1983
    Mikey_Jones notes Post 1:
    -Dan's aptitude for water, Dan can move on it differently than humans.
    -Dan's Supier lung strength.
    -Dan has experience crossing the North Atlantic, twice.
    -Dan seems to be a danger to those around if he can start hurricanes by accident.
    -Comics really help illustrate Mikey's points.

    Mazer notes Post 1:
    -Topanga’s brilliant, shrewd, uses every advantage she has to win.
    -Matriarch of beautiful family.
    -Partner in a multi-national law firm.
    -Learns and adapts quickly.
    -Got a A in psychology.
    -Doesn't underestimate her situation.
    -Stresses David vs. Goliath, Art of Battling Giants

    Mikey_Jones notes Post 2:
    -Cites how 1912 was not a great time to be a woman.
    -Powerful woman for the day had no influence, why would Topanga have any?
    -Dan is one of the most powerful men in the world.
    -The Titanic and Lifeboats will go down by Iceberg or Dan's action leaving Topanga to freeze and drown in the Atlantic.
    -Dan would also be hunting her down. In one on one combat she is outmatched.

    Mazer notes Post 2:
    -Dan's weakness is his mind which Topanga would exploit.
    -Topanga would set traps around the ship with mechanics or trickery with children.
    -Mazer cites with cartoons but posts a wrong cartoon.
    -Dan will sink Titanic and become one of the most wanted men in the world.
    -Mazer cites reasons Topanga could blend in with privileged women and be rescued.

    Mikey_Jones notes Post 3
    -Mechanics would laugh at Topanga trying to get them to do anything.
    -Walking up to Dan would be very foolish.
    -Mikey notes Mazer's comic flub.
    -Mikey cites the insulting comparison of Topanga to WWI women spies.
    -Mikey notes that Topanga has "plans" to beat Dan but Mazer hasn't divulged them yet.
    -Even if Topanga makes it in a lifeboat, Dan could easily destroy those too.
    -Mikey explains the worldwide hunt has nothing to do with this fight here.
    -Mazer has agreed that the Titanic is sinking one way or another.
    -Mikey ends with Dan's water expertise and the likelihood that Topanga will drown one way or another.

    Mazer notes Post 3:
    -Topanga will use feminine wiles to get at least one mechanic to help her.
    -Parents went to Yale. Have made money. Bonus point- Michael McKean is awesome.
    -Would spies be offended by being compared to Topanga?
    -“No Guts, No Cory” reference shows Topanga refusing a pressured marriage, goes to post-war France, tracks down wounded/amnesiac Cory, and heals him but sweet-talking a mechanic or conversing with upper class women is beyond her? Shows how she could maneuver years ago.
    -Mazer cites many comics that shows how dumb Dan can really be.
    -Topanga has outfits prepared for the tournament.
    -Mazer says Dan would be acting against character to murder 100s of people.
    -Mazer sticks with Dan being the main focus of a man hunt.
    -Bonus point for Michael Scott Paper Company reference as Topanga just needs to Outlast Dan.
    -Closes with Topanga winning because of her outstanding intelligence against Dan's lack of intelligence.

    -----

    I think both Mikey and Mazer both did well with their avenues for their arguments.

    I didn't think the man hunt had any bearing on this fight. Sure Dan might be hunted but that's after Dan has killed all those people, maybe Topanga included.

    I don't think it's out of character for Dan to put all those people in trouble. Mikey_Jones explained Dan would cause these events by accident which is believable considering his lack of intelligence, that has been cited by Mazer.

    I think Mazer was correct in Topanga using a wink and a sly smile to get some fool mechanic to help her.

    I agree with Mazer that Topanga would have to outlast Dan but there was no explanation on how she would survive the stone cold water. Mikey was quick to cite Dan's swimming, lung capacity and overall toughness.

    In the end I see this unfolding with Topanga off to a quick lead. She would use her beauty and brains to trick Dan into Topanga’s "Home Alone" style shenanigans around the Titanic.

    Eventually though, Dan sinks the Titanic.

    That's where Dan takes over with his braun and toughness. Dan can survive the ice and temperature. Topanga can't. If Dan causes a hurricane the life boats are wiped out too. Topanga has no where to go. As determined a individual as she is she can't "wait out" Dan in freezing cold water.

    This was a great finale and I thought both combatants did well. I vote for Mikey_Jones to win.

    JUDGE CAITO



    Quote Originally Posted by Caito
    A tough final, well done to both of you.

    This took a couple of read thrus for me. I initially think that Mikey hurt himself with the argument about Dan and the Titanic, saying that either on purpose or by accident, Dan may destroy to anyways. The reason I believe that is in the reveal of he fight location, Badger did make mention of potentially trying to save the Titanic. So, to me that was a point against him.

    However, Mikey taking the offensive with the time period angle was initially one that I really liked. Saying that Topanga’s gender and station in life we’re going to work against her was a line of thinking I could get behind. At least, until I clicked on the link and read up on Elsie Bowerman. (I’m rather familiar with Molly Brown). What I found was a woman who was probably more similar to Tooanga’s character than expected, what with both showing feminist tendencies before going into a career in Law. Molly Brown, while clearly much more wealthy than Topanga, also similar in coming from a hard working background and marrying for love, not money. (Corey’s NYC teaching job can’t pay THAT well).

    If there were ever to wrong woman to use as examples why Topanga would fail simply by being a woman, these were probably the worst two to pick.

    When you combine these with Mazer’s fortunate roll of being able to go second, and come up with counterpoints, it’s a deadly combination. Mazer has proven time and again that his ability to counter has been the best in the tourney. His last post is a perfect example. Explaining how Topanga could simply get men to do her bidding by using feminine wits…. I mean, women have been doing that for years. Bringing up No Guts No Cory, was a nice touch in how Topanga out of place doesn’t mean her immediate demise. When you add in the attacks on Dan himself and if how she could take advantage of his less than stellar intellect…. I think that last post in its entirety sums up Mazer’s whole run from the first round on.


    My point and my vote is for Mazer and Topanga Matthews.
    JUDGE 3PUPPIES



    Quote Originally Posted by 3puppies

    Okay, here goes. This was really close.

    Both Mazer and Mikey had strong initial posts. I think Mikey did really well explaining how Desperate Dan is no stranger to icy water - he thrives in it, and his experience crossing twice before clearly show he's resourceful and would easily survive. Mazer's first post was equally strong - he went in depth discussing one of Topanga's greatest strengths that set up the huge contrast with his opponent - her situational awareness is off the charts.

    The back and forth between both competitors was fun. Mikey raised solid points about Topanga's weakness in the situation being that she's a woman in 1912, and since women were ignored, the powers she has from her generation simply wouldn't exist back then. He strengthened his argument about Dan being so powerful, the fact that he's sometimes clumsy accident prone, he'd likely cause the Titanic to sink anyway, yet Dan would clearly have no problem surviving.

    Mazer's rebuttal point about Topanga's ability to easily outsmart Dan the same way Corky the Cat did with a mallet is impossible to overlook. But I didn't like Mazer attempting to twist Mikey's point about Dan potentially causing an accident into Dan becoming the most wanted man in the world for murdering so many people. In a fiction fight we'd determine the winner based on who dies first, or who defeats their opponent first - not necessarily what happens if they all eventually die.

    But then Mazer pointed out a huge flaw in Mikey's argument about Topanga's race and class. And he hammered home the known flaws that Dan has, how he is easily tricked, and Mikey could not refute.

    I think the difference for me in picking a winner was the fact that Mikey took better advantage of the circumstances, to talk about what would happen in 1912. Mazer relied too much on Dan's flaws and mostly ignored how Topanga (while flawless herself) would actually come up with a plan to defeat Dan. Topanga wouldn't lose, but Mazer is no Topanga. Mazer missed an opportunity of suggesting that Topanga could easily confuse Dan, and because of her smarts, she'd have predicted what chaos Dan could cause, and she'd find a way to harness Dan's immense power to save the entire Titanic. Mikey's pointing out that Mazer's argument

    " such as claiming to have several plans on how to win but then not stating a single one to actually beat Dan."

    should have been addressed forcefully by Mazer in his final rebuttal. Vote Mikey
    And now........




    JUDGE PSYCHO666SOLDIER



    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho666Soldier
    Mikey is a master at setting up Desperate Dan as an immovable force. The first post did both an excellent job at recapping previous abilities/debates and capitalizing in the environment. It already will take a lot from Mazer to come back from this. He cleverly shows evidence that he is both comfortable being under water and can even traverse these specific waters with no problem. Regardless of what happens to the Titanic, Dan is prepared. In general, I feel Mikey has done a great job towing the line between credible fighter and unorthodox pick every year I've seen him(I remember really liking what he did with Popeye). In this case, Dan happened to be much more devastating, and Mikey manipulates his abilities to the environment so well that you'd almost wonder if it's rigged.

    Mazer's first post was interesting because you knew he had a plan he was waiting to unveil the real purpose behind. He made a convincing first post that also made you eager to see more. I had to read a few times to see where the Fundamental Attribution Error point was going, but it acted as a sort of framework to back up why Topanga is so good at assessing her situations. Two things I appreciate here. One, I like that Mazer seems to keep building on Topanga's character through each debate. It really legitimizes Topanga's ability to survive these situations and speaks to her adaptability. Two, he reveals these abilities in a way that sets up the framework for the grounds of the debate. Only thing missing is exactly how this can lead to a victory over the juggernaut of Dan.

    To be honest, I wasn't convinced of Mikey's point about women's place in 1912. I felt this was a waste of his argument space and not the best start, because I didn't really see how that would stop Topanga from being able to do any of the things he had laid out so far. His argument never seemed hinged on Topanga saving the Titanic. I think the point about the destruction being inevitable and Dan being able to survive it while questioning Topanga's survivability was much stronger. And it's possible he made the feminism point to preempt Mazer arguing he'd just prevent the destruction, but I think more of the post focused on this and how Dan would get around Topanga's cunning would have made this rebuttal stronger.

    Mazer starts much stronger here by pointing out that Dan is not smart. While he can punch his way out of most problems, he is proven to be easily tricked. He even stepped up where I slacked in actually backing up how he could set up a trap ala Korky the Cat. This post is an all-out assault. I felt it was clutch pointing out that Dan doesn't seem like a murderer. And then even if he doesn't care about this and ends up destroying the boat, he would be the world's most wanted man. He counters each of Mikey's points effortlessly and turns them into greater strengths in favor of Topanga's abilities.

    Mikey comes back stronger in the third post, though, bringing up that he has no evidence to back up the assertion about mechanics, the comparison to female WWI spies, and bringing up her upbringing that doesn't fully mesh with the picture Mazer was painting. While I don't agree with EVERY point here, he forces Mazer to address it and waste space with it, because without a rebuttal, these points are to meaningful to let slide. I think one really strong point was that walking up right to Dan could prove disastrous. I think the strongest point was Mikey questioning Topanga being able to find a sailboat, and that even if she did, Dan would not allow her to blend in. There's a lot here that Mazer has to prove to. E able to beat this.

    Mazer comes back swinging again, though, bringing back the point in the opening post about David and Goliath, and this unfortunately is not only reflected in Dan's character, but some of Mikey's debate points where he's more dismissive of Mazer's arguments. I feel provides evidence for all the things Mikey called him out on, and further cements the fact that Topanga would be able to blend in quite easily without standing out. Bringing up that she had actually went back in time, adapted and excelled, really did a lot to show that Topanga would thrive in most unknown environments and even has a history of going back to the past to do so. And once again, Mazer hammers home that Dan can easily be outwitted, and also has a limited supply of energy.

    I think the strongest of arguments from both participants were relevant enough that they both could convince me of victory. So I had to look at what I felt were the weaknesses of both people.

    Mikey never really counters the point about it not being in character to senselessly harm others with any intent, and I think dismissing the point about being chased by the world was a mistake. He never really convinced me that he wouldn't be fooled, nor that he would actually do as much damage and be as violent as he proclaimed.

    That said, I feel as if Mazer doesn't fully explain how he'd be able to survive the scenario of the Titanic actually sinking. He makes a good point about the disguise and avoiding individual searches, but I did feel like he could have done more to show how Topanga would actually survive the waters

    All things considered, it could go one way or the other. But ultimately, I feel Mazer had a lot more ammo and was able to convince me that Topanga would adapt to the environment and be much more prepared for Dan, having multiple avenues of victory. Mikey's argument for Dan feels a bit like a one-trick pony: He's really strong and can survive the waters. But I think he didn't do enough to prove he could outsmart Topanga and actually get to do the damage he'd want to do.

    Mikey put up a valiant effort, but Mazer and Topanga are the champions in my eyes.




    Congratulations! @Mazer. A very hard-fouht win just lke Topanga earned her law degree. Commiserations @Mikey_Jones but very well fought! Closest debate I've seen in quite some time!

  10. #10
    Main Eventer Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Congratulations Mazer! That was a tough one to judge.

  11. #11
    Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Next year it’s Kelly’s turn!

  12. #12
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    Happy to pick up a title, but would be a damn fool not to recognize it could have easily gone the other way. Mikey is a Rajah debate HOFer.

    CWE, caito, psych- thank you for being permanent judges. Your votes were always well explained, and that really helped as a participant.


    Jarrod and 3 puppies thank you for stepping in this round. It kept me off balance to have the additions and your critiques were well thought out.


    Badger, I wanted to throttle you when the titanic came up. Honestly though, great choices and creativity. Well run. These are always fun. Thank you for putting together.

  13. #13
    Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazer View Post
    Happy to pick up a title, but would be a damn fool not to recognize it could have easily gone the other way. Mikey is a Rajah debate HOFer.

    CWE, caito, psych- thank you for being permanent judges. Your votes were always well explained, and that really helped as a participant.


    Jarrod and 3 puppies thank you for stepping in this round. It kept me off balance to have the additions and your critiques were well thought out.


    Badger, I wanted to throttle you when the titanic came up. Honestly though, great choices and creativity. Well run. These are always fun. Thank you for putting together.
    CWE judging these things like a boxing match I though was quite nifty.

  14. #14
    Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    I’ll pass the ball back to @mth for his fiction fight idea next time.

  15. #15
    OBJECTION Psycho666Soldier's Avatar
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    Congratulations, Mazer! I felt you really earned it, especially because after Mikey's first two posts I was wondering how you were going to put the "David and Goliath" theory in play.

    Mikey, you gave a hell of a fight and you had one hell of a character that you had control of. The way you adapted him to each environment was really masterful. Hold your head high in defeat.

  16. #16
    [[be gay]][[do crimes]] mth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    I’ll pass the ball back to @mth for his fiction fight idea next time.
    Gonna see about a possible R-fed reunion tourny, i think.

  17. #17
    75% Insane Rip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mth View Post
    Gonna see about a possible R-fed reunion tourny, i think.

  18. #18
    OK at Madden Mikey_Jones's Avatar
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    Damn, what a final debate! Slightly disappointed to lose but full credit to Mazer, a worthy winner! Thanks to everyone for their judging and to Badger for running it.

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