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Thread: Wilfred's Bronze: Rusty Shackleford vs. kdestiny

  1. #1
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    Wilfred's Bronze: Rusty Shackleford vs. kdestiny



    vs.



    Both these men may be called champions. They've won and won again.

    But do they always win? Nay.

    But they always fight. And this is why they are champions.

    They are two of our best. And they've let us know that we don't determine when the fight ends.

    Only they decide.

    And now the fight for Glory once more

    KDestiny

    Rusty Shackleford.

    Let's go





    Topic:
    Vince has decided that's it time to find the "next big thing". Which current NXT wrestler (defined as currently being on NXT roster on WWE.com) has the most potential and ability to be a Wrestlemania Main Eventer in the future? Demonstrate why your selection has high potential to be a top-tier main-event level superstar and is a superior selection to your opponent"



    RULES:

    - You each have 24 hours to respond from the time a post goes up (please make BBF and myself aware of any potential delays). You may make up to 3 posts this round .A maximum word count of 450 words per post will be allowed.

    - All posts must be staggered. You can't make your next post until the other debater has had their turn. As stated, replies should typically occur within 24 hours.


    - No editing of posts allowed. Anything that is posted the first time is what will count so choose your words carefully.

    -The first post for the second poster shall not directly rebut points made by the first poster in their initial post.

    - Pictures, gifs and videos can be used in literally unlimited amounts to support your point. Information should be self-contained within your post. For example, you can't post a link to an article and expect people to go read it. Quote it in your post.

    The order of posting will be determined by a coin toss. The coin toss has revealed that Rusty will be going first!



    Your Judges:
    Virms
    Jarrod
    Problematic Ross
    Mr. Nobody

    If there is a tie through the 4 judges, the final vote will be cast by a gamerunner.

  2. #2
    Midcarder Rusty Shackleford's Avatar
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    I reckon I came unstuck in the semi-final for not laying out my logic clearly enough. So, step by step, here is who Iím choosing and why Iím doing so.

    Firstly, letís address the fact that success in NXT does not necessarily mean success in the main roster, and even less so at main event level. For every Roman Reigns and Sacha Banks thereís many, many more who havenít quite been able to sustain a top-tier push (the likes of Nakamura and Alisteir Black spring to mind) while most donít really get all that close. NXT has been a wonderful addition to WWE programming Ė and at many times almost single-handedly saved it Ė but thereís absolutely no guarantee that a hit transitions to the main PPVs.

    So, for me the main question is one of legitimacy? How can you bring someone up and create the right environment for them to flourish?

    There are a number of different ways to look at this:

    • Is there someone that sticks out a mile as being Ďwastedí at NXT. Someone who has maximised their potential, achieved all they can there and is a natural evolution to join Raw or Smackdown? This is currently the typical career path so to speak
    • Or, is there someone who is a tried and tested hand and has proven main-event calibre either in WWE or other programming. Think Nakamura, Samoa Joe or Finn Balor
    • Or do you look at WWE programming as it stands and think someone can fill a spot that doesnít currently exist.

    Iím choosing option 3.

    Roman Reigns has proved how a well-written heel can still flourish in the post-kayfabe era. No pandering to the crowd, no tweening, just commitment to a character and set of actions.

    Iím choosing someone who can also do this. But not a head of the table. A pure psychopath. Someone with proven ability tear through a feud, with pure commitment to a character. WWE isnít short of wrestlers with athleticism but it is sorely lacking in well-rounded character-driven material. Someone you can tie a storyline to a make you want to tune in the next week (remember when Raw did that?) to see what would happen next. My pick has the potential to do this.

    My pick is 36 years old and in the prime of his life. He is half-responsible for the best feud in NXT history. My pick is

  3. #3
    Once upon a time... kdestiny's Avatar
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    WWE does not have the best track history as far as developing talent from NXT.

    Who would even be considered the most successful? Seth? He was there at the very very beginning.

    I don't really count Drew because he had a run with WWE already.

    Since the move to the Network and then to USA the most successful would have to be Kevin Owens right?

    It feels like in order to be able to really make it you need to have something truly unique about you. You have to be able to stick out in a crowd in some way.

    Even then, you look at Keith Lee and he has had a rocky go of it.

    I think you still need to fit into the NXT mold and somehow fit into Vince McMahon's mold as well. So many have been successful in NXT and then failed on the main roster and I think that is because they fit in NXT, but they don't really fit into WWE in Vince's mind.

    In order to find someone who can eventually MAIN EVENT Wrestlemania, that's a bit of a tall task. Every single one that has been called up has missed out on that main event (unless you include Seth's cashing in, even though he wasn't originally in the match)

    While WWE has shed that "land of the giants" moniker, it seems that they have too many who are really good in the ring technically, can strike hard, and can fly... but they don't necessarily have that wow factor in their look. You don't look at them and think "wow, that's a Wrestlemania main eventer right there."

    Just looking at the title pictures on both brands and you see big men who look like beasts fighting over who should represent that brand as champion.

    The way that NXT has been and is surely to continue to move in the next several months, it feels like there is only one correct answer to this question.

    My choice to be a Wrestlemania main eventer... Someone who embodies what Vince looks for in a main eventer, but someone who is representing NXT proudly...


  4. #4
    Midcarder Rusty Shackleford's Avatar
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    There's nothing as fickle as the human brain, accepted wisdom explaining that we have many, many natural cognitive biases to navigate through as we go about our ever day decision making process. I think your choice is a smart one, choosing the current hottest star in NXT. You certainly won't get any argument from me on that front.

    But there's a reason why 'best album ever' or 'best TV show ever' lists always end up with a disproportionate skew towards the current day and that's the natural cognitive function known as recency bias; the tendency to favour recent memories over others. I think you're playing a smart card here by choosing Karrion Kross as he's currently, arguably, the hottest property in NXT. Playing on the natural and understandable biases of the audience. Tomasso Ciampa? Old news, right?

    I'd argue that it's only after the passing of time that one can truly make a judgement of where something stands in comparison to its peers. And it's not like you can just lift someone from NXT and have it immediately work on the main roster, right? You argued as much too, albeit in a different way.

    What even is WWE? This ridiculous mix of performance art, fighting and pure spectacle. Strip everything away and it's STORYTELLING. Antagonist versus protagonist. Good v evil. Ying v yang. I invite the judges to cast their respective minds back to their favourite wrestling moments ever and I challenge you to argue that when wrestling is at its best, it doesn't have a well-written story behind it?

    So, who can carry that story? Who can play the antagonist better than perhaps anyone we've seen in recent times? Don't just ask me, do a quick google of 'best NXT feuds ever'. I guarantee that my pick is at the business end of each of those lists. We've yet to see if Karrion Kross can deliver. I'm sure he can. But Ciampa has proved this already and by definition, this makes him a more reliable pick.

  5. #5
    Once upon a time... kdestiny's Avatar
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    The reason I didn't even think about Ciampa is due to him saying that he would "rather retire than go to Raw or Smackdown".

    Are you going to try to build a main event NXT match? Are you going to have him be NXT champion? I don't think there's a chance in hell Vince would agree to that, and with Ciampa also getting up in age and it is unfortunately a matter of time before he has to actually retire from wrestling.

    I chose the hottest thing in NXT that also fits what Vince could see in a main eventer of Wrestlemania.

    Ciampa already had a run on the main roster that was luke warm at best because there are so many guys who are like him already. I would also argue that Ciampa would need the right dance partner to be able to make this match work.

    Since you like bringing up the "best NXT feuds ever"... do you think Vince would have Ciampa/Gargano main event WrestleMania?

    No.

    It took Daniel Bryan years to get there and he main evented WrestleMania because the fans were so vocally against their plan, and he did it in triple threat matches.

    Ciampa doesn't have that same underdog babyface style or mentality..

    Kross' title win against Keith Lee was good, his squash of Ciampa was great stuff, and the past few weeks he's gotten to flex his babyface muscles a little bit. He is showing he could be a killer (ha) heel and he can sell enough to be an effective babyface.

    I think the biggest thing about Kross is that he is pushing for these huge matches. Kross wants to face Edge, he wants to face Cena. Can you imagine a Kross/Cena Mania program? You have the new monster heel and he wants the top guy at the biggest stage.

    The storytelling can be there, and his feud with Balor has shown some interesting additions for both guys.

    The question here is who has the most potential and ability to be a Mania main eventer.

    Ciampa seems to be on the back end of his career. He's teaming with Thatcher, and that could be so that he can take it easy on his neck for a little while. That's fine, Sheamus did that for a while and he's having a decent little run in the midcard.

    Kross is about to hit his prime and fits what both an NXT and WWE guy would look like. He's got what it takes to stick out and not be another face in the crowd.

    Plus, this means more Scarlett on TV and I don't see how you could possibly be against that.

  6. #6
    Midcarder Rusty Shackleford's Avatar
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    Itís late, Iím tired, Iím in the corner here and itís time to come out swinging.

    Are you going to try to build a main event NXT match? Are you going to have him be NXT champion? I don't think there's a chance in hell Vince would agree to that, and with Ciampa also getting up in age and it is unfortunately a matter of time before he has to actually retire from wrestling.
    Ciampa was born on May 8th 1985. Kross was born on July 19th 1985. Six weeks apart. Did you even research this at all?

    Kross is about to hit his prime and fits what both an NXT and WWE guy would look like. He's got what it takes to stick out and not be another face in the crowd.
    There you go again. You really didnít research this age thing did you?

    Ciampa already had a run on the main roster that was luke warm at best because there are so many guys who are like him already. I would also argue that Ciampa would need the right dance partner to be able to make this match work.
    I wouldnít class a couple of sporadic appearances when WWE writing went batshit crazy for a few weeks classifies as a Ďrun on the main rosterí. WWE were scrambling out of desperation.



    Since you like bringing up the "best NXT feuds ever"... do you think Vince would have Ciampa/Gargano main event WrestleMania?
    No.

    No I donít think so either, which is why Iím not suggesting it.


    I think the biggest thing about Kross is that he is pushing for these huge matches. Kross wants to face Edge, he wants to face Cena. Can you imagine a Kross/Cena Mania program? You have the new monster heel and he wants the top guy at the biggest stage.
    I can imagine it like lord knows how many other John Cena matches, facing up against the next big monster heel. Just about the least interesting wrestling trope in the world.


    The reason I didn't even think about Ciampa is due to him saying that he would "rather retire than go to Raw or Smackdown".
    Iím delighted you brought this up as for me it presents a perfect opportunity for genuine heel heat, something which is hard to come by in the post-kayfabe era. Have Ciampa come out and declare to the world that heís above Raw and Smackdown. This isnít where he belongs. Plastic fans and a plastic product. Instant heat. Have him destroy the biggest babyfaces. Ruin their matches. Wreck the flow of WWE TV.
    It comes down to this for me:

    • Do you believe that wrestling hasnít evolved at all and that you need to have a certain Ďlookí to be a main eventer


    Or


    • Do you, like me, believe that wrestling is just another form of performance art, with storytelling at its core?


    What do you think of when you look back at your history of watching wrestling and reel off the times when it works best? For me I think of the summer of Punk. I think of the mega-powers exploding. I think of Jake the Snake terrorising the Macho Man and Elizabeth. I think of Marty Jannetty going through the barbershop window. I think of the festival of friendship. I think of Daniel Bryan and the Yes Movement. What do all of these things have in common? Wrestling evoking emotion.

    Thatís why Iíve picked the man who was partly responsible for the best feud (i.e. the best storyline) in NXT history as my best bet for carrying this ability into the main roster and being able to hold his own as half of a main event programme.

    Itís quite simple logic really.

  7. #7
    Once upon a time... kdestiny's Avatar
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    I assumed Ciampa was a lot older because of his neck injury becoming an issue, so that's my mistake. Kross doesn't have that kind of injury on him. Ciampa is on borrowed time at the moment because of that injury.

    You're going back and forth here as to saying we shouldn't have this guy use the best feud in NXT history and yet you keep referencing it like it matters.

    We aren't choosing who we think deserves​ to main event WrestleMania. We can fantasy book all day and I bet Ciampa would be the choice because he's an internet darling, so I get why you would go that route. Ciampa might not be wrestling more than a couple more years. He may not even main event another Takeover let alone main event WM.

    I do appreciate you skimming past my point that he would rather retire than be called up to the main roster, I assume you've conceded that point to me.

    Kross isn't just a monster heel. I should've described him as such. He has this vicious hybrid style like Brock Lesnar in many ways. Hey, I remember him, he's main evented multiple WrestleManias!

    How many guys in NXT are like Ciampa? He's a great choice, but you could've gone with Gargano, Balor, or Adam Cole before him. They are very similar to him, and don't have the terrifying neck injury to limit their time.

    The reason I keep harping on size is because whether we want to admit it or not, that still matters to Vince. That is why he was going to go with Orton vs. Batista at WrestleMania 30. The Yes Movement changed it.

    Do you truly think that Ciampa can get that kind of support from the fans to get his way in before he has to retire?

    As sad as it is, I am not sure he can. I think he's okay with that.

    Kross wants more. He's striving for these dream matches.

    You bring up other storylines and while those are great, how many of those led to a main event WrestleMania match?

    It's not just about the look, it's potential. Kross has the potential to become a big time player. Ciampa has potential to be out of wrestling in a few years. He wants to enjoy his time and not be squandered on the main roster like he was before.

    You are putting way too much faith in the writing staff that's wasted Ricochet, Aleister Black, and Andrade.

    Kross looks like he belongs on top.

    Ciampa wants to stay in NXT.

    Kross should be the answer here.

    Simple logic indeed.

  8. #8
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    Whose going to earn a place on the medal stand?

    We will soon know.
    @virms @Mr_Nobody @Badger @Jarrod1983

  9. #9
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    Soon was not quite as soon.

    But in a year of trials and tribulations, what better represents the fighting spirit than an extended wait?


    As a note, Judge virms of the 9 realms passes a note that he was stricken by Badger virus and is currently stuck in the 6th realm. The note is signed "Virms' Mom, not Virm" so it seems pretty legit.

    Judge Comrade 1983



    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod1983
    Both Rusty and kd opened with solid choices for the coveted Vince McMahon call up to the big Wrestlemania main event push.

    Try as Rusty might, it just seemed that he was on the defensive the entire bout, minus the point about Ciampa and Kross being almost the same age. His 2nd post seemed to take a bit just to call Ciampa a great story teller. His 3rd post pretty much confirmed him being on the defending end by starting that he was in the corner and needed to battle out. He spent most his final post battling kdestiny points while not elaborating on his too much other than saying Ciampa is a great story teller.

    Between kdestiny's 2nd and 3rd posts he really spelled out why his selection would get the Vince call up for the big Wrestlemania main event push. From being a Lesnar-esque hybrid to Kross wanting the dream matches (while pointing out Ciampa being content to stay in NXT) to Scarlett, kdestiny seemed to hit all the high points. He also mixed in Ciampa's neck and how he's on borrowed time.

    I thought it was a good debate but I vote for kdestiny to take home the bronze!

    Judge Badger




    Quote Originally Posted by Badger
    This was a close one, two different guys of similar age yet different styles and types. Rusty towards a decent storyline of where Ciampa could go onto the main roster saying he's above this place and Kross hasn't been around his much. However I think overall kdestiny was a little stronger here in his points saying that Kross's look is more what Vince looks for in a main-eventer and he can do more than just be a monster heel. He pointed out that Kross is doing a hybrid thing at the moment with his character and that there was more going against Ciampa with his look, his unwillingness to move to Raw/SD, his neck injury and that there have been similar types of wrestlers to Ciampa before so his chances of main-eventing Mania are limited.

    kdestony gets it for me in a close battle.


    Judge Mr. Nobody



    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Nobody
    Rusty vs. kdestiny

    Full disclosure, I don't watch NXT. What I know of NXT is from watching NXT Takeover before Wrestlemania the last two years. I do read the reslts and keep up with everything though, so I'm aware of the wrestlers. All that being said, I think you both had some pretty good choices for your picks. I like how both of you did very similar things in your intros, laying out the ground work for your arguments, setting things up, without giving away everything you were going to talk about.

    While Rusty did a decent job of explaining why Ciampa was a better choice than Kross in a second post, but kdestiny really hammered Rusty's choice, while at the same time strengthening his own.

    But, in his third post, Rusty really did come out swinging, challenging kdestiny on almost every one of his points and hitting him with some strong facts and opinions to show why kdestiny is wrong.

    However, in his final post, kdestiny responded to almost all of Rusty's points, brought up new points, like the neck injury, and further cemented his choice in Kross.

    Winner...in a very well fought and enjoyable debate... kdestiny!



    Kdestiny wins and takes home the bronze. Fantastic debate by both. Rusty, in his 2 years, has some of the best paced arguments in the tournament, He writes in a manner that considers the readers' experience viewpoints, and builds on it throughout. Kdestiny could have easily won the tournament. His selections were on point, and his counters are like a young Chuck Liddell. Strong turns of phrase as well, that resonate with the reader.

    Both of you are excellent.

    Thank you and congratulations.

  10. #10
    Midcarder Rusty Shackleford's Avatar
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    Congratulations @kdestiny. Very well deserved.

    Thanks for having me again. Turns out not watching much wrestling in the last year makes it harder to compete! Lost the semi and play off to the better debaters though.

    See you next year...

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