Wilfred's Final: Mikey Jones vs. Psycho666Soldier

[Mazer]

Mikey Jones

vs.

Psycho666Soldier


These two men, among the greatest posters we have, now do battle.

Let me first introduce Mikey Jones

Today I have the pride, the privilege, nay, the pleasure
Of introducing to you a Debater, sired by Debater,
A Debater who can trace his lineage back beyond Chris.

I first met him atop a thread in the Asylum
Praying to God,
Asking His forgiveness,
For the Troll blood spilt by his posts.

Next, he amazed me still further in Italy
When he saved a fatherless newby
From the would-be ravishings
Of a dreadful Turkish Hammer

In the Ramble thread, he spent a year posting in 1 pt font
Just to better understand the mental sound of a whisper.



And so, without further gilding the lily,
And with no more ado,
I give to you the Seeker of Zelina Vega
The Protector of Rajah Virginity,
The Enforcer of our Lord God,

The One --

The Only --

Mikey Jones!!!







But wait there's someone else here too. Someone you do not coming after you in a debate. Psycho666Soldier


It's not what people debated, son, that angers me so. It's who they debated with.
That "fuckin' poster"... is Psycho666Soldier. He once was an associate of ours. They call him "Baba Yaga."
Well Psycho isn't exactly the Boogeyman.......He was the one you sent to outdebate the fucking Boogeyman.


Psychois a man of focus, commitment, sheer will... something you know very little about. I once saw him outdebate kill three men in the ramble thread. Arguing for Mark Henry.....For Mark fucking Henry. Then suddenly one day he asked to leave. It's over television, of course. So I made a deal with him. I gave him an impossible task. A denate no one could have pulled off. The posters he buried that day laid the foundation of what we are now. And then my son, a few days after his tv went, you challenge him to a debate and think you'll claim the championship

Listen! Huh? Psycho will come for you, and you will do nothing because you can do nothing, so get the fuck out of my sight!


.....How many arguments should you send against Psych.....How many do you have?






This is it. Two Legends enter. But only one Legend grows.


Topic:

You are given the ability to pick 2 wrestlers from any year (current or in the past) to have a one-time only dream match. Specify the two wrestlers you have chosen and the respective year you are drawing each individual from (e.g. Koko B. Ware 1995 vs. Red Rooster 1988). Demonstrate why your selected match will most engage the fans and prove to be the Ultimate Dream Match


RULES:

- You each have 24 hours to respond from the time a post goes up (please make BBF and myself aware of any potential delays). You may make up to 3 posts this round .A maximum word count of 450 words per post will be allowed.

- All posts must be staggered. You can't make your next post until the other debater has had their turn. As stated, replies should typically occur within 24 hours.


- No editing of posts allowed. Anything that is posted the first time is what will count so choose your words carefully.

-The first post for the second poster shall not directly rebut points made by the first poster in their initial post.

- Pictures, gifs and videos can be used in literally unlimited amounts to support your point. Information should be self-contained within your post. For example, you can't post a link to an article and expect people to go read it. Quote it in your post.

The order of posting will be determined by a coin toss. The coin toss has revealed that Mikey will be going first!



Your Judges:
Virms
Jarrod
Problematic Ross
Mr. Nobody

If there is a tie through the 4 judges, the final vote will be cast by a gamerunner.

[Mikey_Jones]

If you are picking a dream match in wrestling, there are multiple routes you could take. A technical masterclass for wrestling purists. A hardcore brawl for the ages. WeeLC 2. The dream match should, of course, be a match that everyone wants to see happen. A match which hasn’t happened before. A match that fans have craved and desired for years. Ideally, something which wasn’t actually possible, either through different generations or different companies.

But if we want a dream match that would engage the fans the most, it has to feature wrestlers from a period when fans were more engaged. This points us towards the Attitude Era, undoubtedly wrestling’s boom period. The Attitude Era led to a huge surge in the popularity of professional wrestling, evident by record highs in television ratings and PPV buy rates. This was most evident in the rivalry between WCW and WWF/WWE and so it makes sense to pick the two biggest stars from this time period.

WCW’s biggest star was Hollywood Hulk Hogan, who enjoyed a career renaissance that peaked in 1997. At Starrcade 1997, Hogan battled Sting in an event that became the highest-grossing PPV in WCW history. Hogan’s success throughout 1997 was evident and, whilst being the leader of the nWo, made him the biggest star WCW had to offer. More importantly, Hogan was a mega heel who everyone wanted to see get his comeuppance. That's why 1997 Hulk Hogan is one of my picks.

Against him stands one of the biggest stars of the WWF Attitude Era and a true household name - Stone Cold Steve Austin in 1999. Winning King of the Ring, working with Mike Tyson and in the midst of an epic feud with Vince McMahon, Austin was truly a megastar. Another easy choice.

We all know how great each man was and, in my next post, I’ll explain further about just HOW big this would be. But would the dream match really have worked? It wouldn’t be a technical masterpiece, but it doesn’t need to be and that isn’t the point. Case in point, look at The Rock vs Hulk Hogan from Wrestlemania 18:



The crowd was filled with sheer emotion with every move as fans looked on in shock and amazement at two of the greatest of all time, putting on a match that will go down in history as one of the best. Austin vs. Hogan would have delivered that same excitement, that same electricity, that once-in-a-lifetime feeling that fans look forward to and pay big money to see.

Fans want to see generations collide and Hogan vs Austin is the biggest “what-if” there is in wrestling.

[Psycho666Soldier]

“Dream Match” is a term that gets thrown around pretty often. And I believe there are many ways to define a dream match. But I believe the strongest fuel for a dream match is the prospect of a modern star facing off against someone they can’t for one reason or another. It could be death, retirement, contracts with another promotion, or health problems. To me, though, we often get stuck on the idea of pitting older stars against each other for matches that never happened that should have. This is a fine thought, but it detracts from the core issue of WWE today: making its current stars matter.

With that in mind, I think it’s natural to pick one person from the current product to slot into half of this Ultimate Dream Match. That person is none other than The Head of the Table – Roman Reigns. Like him or not, he has been a much needed booster shot for the product since he returned and went heel. He is unequivocally the leader of the current product, and all eyes are on him to see who can dethrone the current king of Smackdown.

Picture it. Roman has defeated challenger after challenger. He puts down Cesaro, Jimmy Uso, and any stragglers that have yet to step up. He’s in the middle of the ring doing his spiel, with his lackeys beside him. “Everyone has learned to acknowledge me. And if they didn’t, I made them. There’s no one to deny the Head of the Table, and no one is taking this championship from me.” Something like that. And then:

CM Punk, circa August 2013. This is when Punk has the absolute classic with Brock Lesnar and is refreshed from a long break to recovery from injuries.

Punk makes a perfect foil for Roman. He’s a babyface the crowd will get behind due to him leaving with unfinished business. He is known for breaking the fourth wall and talking about real fan opinions, and he has a mountain of ammunition against Roman when it comes to fan opinions and backstage politics. There is already an established history with Heyman and The Shield, and with Punk leaving the company disillusioned with WWE’s obsession with making Roman look strong. He can more than carry his end on the mic and bring the best out of Roman. And it’s a return and program that would get the world buzzing about the current product.

[Mikey_Jones]

I think your definition of a dream match is somewhat restrictive and I disagree that a dream match is about making the current stars matter. As the prompt states, it is about engaging the fans the most. That being said, Reigns is a great choice as a modern day superstar who has made heads turn and got fans engaged.

But CM Punk from August 2013?

This is a CM Punk who has just lost to Undertaker at WrestleMania and then to Lesnar at Summerslam. This is a CM Punk who is months away from leaving the business forever due to being broken down, disillusioned and injured. When you say...

refreshed from a long break to recovery from injuries.

...this couldn’t be further from the truth. There is no long rest here, and CM Punk in 2013 is not a mainstream star who would get the world buzzing. After all, the world wasn’t exactly buzzing about Punk back in 2013 - his historic “pipebomb” promo was a full two years prior to 2013 Punk and his 434-day title reign, although fantastic, was an afterthought when he lost to The Rock.

Punk’s mainstream appeal is questionable as well. Since retiring from WWE, Punk embarked on an awful UFC career (0-2) and...nothing else. An apt comparison would be Edge, who achieved some prominence for his acting performances in Haven and Vikings. However, when Edge recently returned there was hardly anything which would get the “world buzzing”.

Now, an easy argument against this would be to cite Hulk Hogan’s troubles in the last few years. However, Hulk Hogan circa 1997 was a world-renowned star who achieved a 1.9 PPV buy rate - outrageous numbers which far exceed anything CM Punk has brought to the table. Most fans will be clamouring to see Hollywood Hogan back in his prime.

Hell, let's take it one step further - wrestling fans would hate it. But imagine that. Wrestling fans hating someone who is coming back as the biggest heel in the industry. Why not use some real life animosity to build further towards the dream match?


If we really want to get the world buzzing, having wrestling’s two biggest stars is the logical and natural way to achieve it. As mentioned, Hogan in 1997 achieved a 1.9 PPV buy rate whilst Austin in 1999 achieved a 2.0. CM Punk? 0.5 PPV buy rate at best. There are not enough fans interested in CM Punk to truly create a “dream match” feel.

[Psycho666Soldier]

What’s the most engaged a fan can be? One that wants to keep watching to see what comes next. As I said, your dream match is fine, but what engages the fans most will also improve the state of WWE: not enough interest in the current product.

Your argument about buy rates falls short because you can’t compare the modern era’s buy rates vs. those pre-2000. The company as a whole is sinking in broadcast ratings, and most of their PPV buy rates were on the decline before they introduced the Network. But that is largely thanks to the internet becoming a life standard and pirating becoming more accessible.

Punk and Roman, however, are both two performers that brought a spotlight to the company when business was low. You yourself have admitted that Roman is a standout who made people pay attention during a crowdless, boring year for WWE.

CM Punk was the first person to outsell John Cena’s merch in 5 years in 2011, and even at WrestleMania - the first live event in a year - the fans chanted his name. You talk down his accomplishments, but a modern crowd will receive him louder than ever before.

For injuries, he had the 2-month break after Mania which allowed a recharge. He was clearly still motivated in the ring at this point as shown by the classic with Brock. And this is a brief outing for Punk. Even if injuries are plaguing him again later, he has all the time to recover afterward. In fact, him being bitter with the company’s handling of his health could play into the storyline when he calls out Roman for getting an extended break for being at risk.

Hogan was booed at WrestleMania while people cheered Titus over him. Bringing back Hollywood is a clever subversion, but this carries a vital problem: what is Hollywood without his nWo posse? You’re not getting much from the old men, and you can’t bring anyone else back from time. A gaggle of modern bozos will feel weak or marginalize talent who deserve more than being a lackey (Retribution, anyone?). Without nWo, what engaging heat can Hollywood actually draw against Austin? Not a lot.

There’s also the issue of chemistry. Austin takes putting his character over seriously, and Hogan has a history of playing politics. When it comes to business, it will be a battle of egos to determine who wins, and has a high chance of bleeding into the match quality. But Roman is a team player, and Punk has gone on record as being happy to lose as long as he gets his spotlight. Their personal business won’t be at a detriment to the product.

[Mikey_Jones]

What’s the most engaged a fan can be? One that wants to keep watching to see what comes next. As I said, your dream match is fine, but what engages the fans most will also improve the state of WWE: not enough interest in the current product.

Your argument about buy rates falls short because you can’t compare the modern era’s buy rates vs. those pre-2000. The company as a whole is sinking in broadcast ratings, and most of their PPV buy rates were on the decline before they introduced the Network. But that is largely thanks to the internet becoming a life standard and pirating becoming more accessible.

Punk and Roman, however, are both two performers that brought a spotlight to the company when business was low. You yourself have admitted that Roman is a standout who made people pay attention during a crowdless, boring year for WWE.

Even if it is true that a one-off dream match should be about engaging the fans so they keep watching (which I disagree with), there is no guarantee that will happen with either Reigns or Punk. Reigns is THE star of the current product, as I’m happy to admit. But let’s take a look at Smackdown’s rating in the nine months preceding Reigns’ return (23rd August 2020) and the nine months after:

(large images)

Average before Reigns: 2.267mil
Average with Reigns: 2.054mil

There is no “spotlight” with Reigns. He hasn’t bought extra attention or interest to the current product. In fact, the OPPOSITE is true and there are FEWER people watching with Reigns as the Tribal Chief. This is despite his excellent work as the Tribal Chief - it just hasn’t got people interested or watching the current product. Your argument doesn’t hold much water, I’m afraid.

Furthermore, you mention different era’s and how you can’t compare and I fully agree. Wrestling is much smaller nowadays, and neither Punk nor Reigns will ever be as big as the stars from pre-2000. So why are you trying to argue that picking lesser-known stars will increase interest in the current product? If you want to increase interest, then you can look at what the WWE has actually done: bring back the big stars from when wrestling is popular. And that’s exactly what I’m proposing with the two biggest stars from wrestling history! Hogan and Austin would do far more to bring back the casual fan’s interest in the current product.

CM Punk was the first person to outsell John Cena’s merch in 5 years in 2011, and even at WrestleMania - the first live event in a year - the fans chanted his name. You talk down his accomplishments, but a modern crowd will receive him louder than ever before.

Sure - but how will the current crowd liking Punk improve interest in the current product? Again, it doesn’t. There won’t be extra interest outside of the current fans.



“From the old men”? 1999 Austin is YOUNGER than both of your wrestlers, and Hulk Hogan is still only 43 with another 15+ years in the business. 1997 Hogan is still FIVE years away from his classic match against The Rock at WM X8 - a match which didn’t have the involvement of the nWo either! So it turns out that Hollywood Hogan is still quite a lot without his nWo posse. As Rock/Hogan demonstrated, when you have two of the biggest stars in wrestling you don’t need extra lackeys or bozos. You just let them perform.

As for politics? Hogan was more than happy to lose at X8 to The Rock and in this dream-match scenario there’d be no “creative control”. It really doesn’t matter who wins and loses, as the dream match is about the spectacle. The spectacle of having the two biggest stars in wrestling history face off.

[Psycho666Soldier]

I must admit, that is a strong retort from my opponent. I have a couple small bullets of ammunition left, but nothing could possibly counter the absolute tear-down of my arguments Mikey just handed me. You may let the judges do as they may, but the way I see it, I have been handily defeated.

Great shit, Mikey.

[Mazer]

let us do that then.


Judges....judge

@virms @Mr_Nobody @Badger @Jarrod1983

[Mazer]

After all has been said and done, only 3 voices remained.

And those voices....have said things




As a note, Judge virms of the 9 realms passes a note that he was stricken by Badger virus and is currently stuck in the 6th realm. The note is signed "Virms' Mom, not Virm" so it seems pretty legit.

Judge Comrade 1983

I thought both guys were laying a strong foundation for their arguments but since Psycho666Soldier kept it short so will I.

Congratulations to our two time, two time Rajah Wilfred's Heavyweight Champion of the Worrrrrrrrld (except in Russia, we don't recognize Wilfred's in Homeland. We have Kournikova Debates there, very very intense) Mikey_Jones!!!!

Thank you to Mazer, BBF, all the contestants and our judges for taking the time for this. It was a fun year of debates.

Judge Badger

Mikey made in my view a somewhat predictable choice in Hogan/Austin but his opening post was solid. When Psycho started his opening with Reigns being one half of his selection, I was getting very excited when getting to the spoiler tag thinking it was going to be the Rock. I’m sorry if this is a bit harsh but clicking on the spoiler tag I was a bit deflated it was Punk.

Psycho did try hard to argue that this was a Punk in his most successful period and he did touch on the history with Shield/Heyman but Mikey was much too strong and did a great job pointing out that buyrates/ratings were not as strong. Psycho then went on the age attack but Mikey shut that down as well pointing out 1997 Austin was younger and Hogan still had a long way to go in his career. He even used ratings to shut down Reigns a bit when he came back when compared to how successful Austin and Hogan were at that point.Psycho himself threw in the towel at the end

I feel this may have been closer but IMO he picked the wrong opponent for Reigns as you have a real family connection there and buzz. Mikey won this by some distance and as such Mikey_Jones as my pick for this year’s Wilfred’s Debate Champion.

Judge Mr. Nobody

Mikey vs. Psycho

Well, seeing Psycho has already kind of explained what happened here with his final post, I don't feel the need to do a long drawn up write-up. I actually think Psycho had a better starting argument with Reigns vs. Punk, as it was a match I didn't think I wanted to see until he was explaining it. However, he is right. From the moment Mikey was handed the ball back, he took a part everything about Psycho's argument and never looked back.

Winner: Mikey (good job in the competition. Very well deserved)

Although the final got drawn out, that shouldn't diminish the quality of posts. Psycho had a tremendous run. He was often playing the long game, and structuring points to follow through and expound on later posts.


Mikey deserves this win. He was tremendous throughout. He had an ideal balance of challenging choices that also had an easy to explain logical consistency. Part of strong debating is being able to make points be simultaneously memorable and concise. Mikey accomplishes that, both in asserting his own points and in counter. His game is absurdly well-rounded. A great run and a deserving champ.

Mikey's an all-timer



Thanks to BBF for most of the the early topic ideas. After a few years of running this, it was absurdly nice to have someone new come up with questions. jarrod, Mr N, Badge, and virms were all fantastic judges who genuinely spent time making sure they gave thorough, thoughtful, and consistent appraisals.



Thanks to all and CONGRATS TO MIKEY

[Badger]

@Mikey_Jones very well deserved! You brought the facts, figures and the heavy debates so enjoy your second trophy.
@Psycho666Soldier very unlucky. I will be honest taking my judge’s hat off, I was pulling for you to get your first trophy win and join us on the champion’s table. Though I feel harsh about my vote in the end, I also get the feeling you were also struggling for time. Up til now you’ve brought it and I sincerely hope you get there my friend as you do deserve it.

@virms Like that gun Mafia game that Psycho ran, once again you failed/took too long to get rid of all the Badgers in the multiverse. We shall not be moved!

Sincere thanks to everyone who took part though. Although was hoping for more in the final, a lot of these debates were a real joy to judge. Can’t pick a favourite but one moment I can recall was @mth and his brutal but stunning counter to PG’s Eddie Guerrero argument.

To finish off, thanks to everybody who took part and participated. Special shout-out to @Mazer and @BBF (if he’s still here) for organising this in my absence running this!

[Badger]

Also @Jarrod1983 and @Mr_Nobody, pleasure working alongside you gentlemen!

[Mr_Nobody]

Also @Jarrod1983 and @Mr_Nobody, pleasure working alongside you gentlemen!

Ditto!

[Badger]

[Mr_Nobody]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Badger again.

[Mikey_Jones]

Thanks guys!

Firstly, sorry for taking so long with each post. I know it took the piss but I didn't expect other commitments to take so long.

Thank you for the kind words, I always enjoy these debates especially since I don't actively watch anymore, it's nice to get back involved in wrestling and see what arguments can be made from an "outside" perspective. Huge thanks to Torn for being my sounding board for ideas and to all the judges throughout the competition for their time and commitment. I really enjoyed each debate and every round was incredibly tough

But most importantly

DOUBLE CHAMP