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Thread: Semi-Final 2: Rusty vs. Mikey

  1. #1
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    Semi-Final 2: Rusty vs. Mikey

    Rusty Shackleford

    vs.

    Mikey Jones




    2 Semi Final matches

    2 Posters who will advance to the championships

    2 Posters who each have 2 names

    1 Poster who will advance

    1 Dream will die

    1 Heart will go on



    Topic:
    Wrestlemania-the culmination of the year's events and stories. The main event serves as both a culmination and springboard. Some serve both purposes well. Others are quickly relegated to the dustbins of history, never to see promotion on Peacock


    Your topic: Select two male competitors to compete against each other in the Main Event of the next Wrestlemania. You may choose any two male competitors who are currently under contract with WWE. Demonstrate why your selections is superior to your opponent's.



    RULES:

    - You each have 24 hours to respond from the time a post goes up (please make BBF and myself aware of any potential delays). You may make up to 3 posts this round .A maximum word count of 450 words per post will be allowed.

    - All posts must be staggered. You can't make your next post until the other debater has had their turn. As stated, replies should typically occur within 24 hours.


    - No editing of posts allowed. Anything that is posted the first time is what will count so choose your words carefully.

    -The first post for the second poster shall not directly rebut points made by the first poster in their initial post.

    - Pictures, gifs and videos can be used in literally unlimited amounts to support your point. Information should be self-contained within your post. For example, you can't post a link to an article and expect people to go read it. Quote it in your post.

    The order of posting will be determined by a coin toss. The coin toss has revealed that Mikey will be going first!



    Your Judges:
    Jarrod
    Badger
    Mr. Nobody

  2. #2
    OK at Madden Mikey_Jones's Avatar
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    The WrestleMania main event is the biggest spectacle in wrestling. As Psycho said, itís a spot to create moments which last for a lifetime. A spot for the best wrestlers and the megastars. WWE has done a fantastic job of that in the past, with highlights such as Stone Cold vs The Rock and The Undertaker vs Shawn Michaels.

    As such, itís obvious that Roman Reigns fills one of these spots. As I highlighted in my last post, Reigns has been incredible as the Tribal Chief and the best wrestler in the WWE. He has been built into a megastar and has a real aura and presence as champion. Under his partnership with Paul Heyman, this is an easy pick. Just look at the way he was a natural fit in this yearís main event.

    The main question, in my mind, is who he should face. As mentioned, a WrestleMania main event needs to have superstars and, ideally, a match that hasnít been seen that recently. Where is the excitement of seeing a match if itís been seen six months ago? With this in mind, Iím selecting someone who was chosen last round in the debate. Someone who has superstar potential and, with the right build, will make for the perfect main event.



    Keith Lee is clearly loved in WWE. Just take a look at his first major PPV appearance:



    The obvious problem is that the Keith Lee of that magical moment two years ago is not the same Keith Lee now. The first man to simultaneously be NXT Champion and NXT North American Champion is no more. Sure, he was built up as a main event player upon his call up to the main roster debut but he slowly dropped and was due to be in a US Title match before his injury. But letís re-examine that video.

    In 30 minutes, Keith Lee became a superstar. But in the final four minutes, we got a glimpse of Roman Reigns vs Keith Lee and what a spectacle it was. It felt like a match between megastars and there is no reason over the next year that Keith Lee cannot reach those levels again. As Simon somewhat poorly explained in his previous debate, he is a megastar waiting to happen and can easily be built up to become that megastar again.

    Roman Reigns vs Keith Lee is a huge match between megastars and is the perfect option for the main event of WrestleMania..

  3. #3
    Midcarder Rusty Shackleford's Avatar
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    A few things to say before we get into my picks.

    Firstly, Iím a firm believer that the title match should go on last in the show barring absolutely exceptional circumstances. Such exceptional circumstances might mean something absolutely monumental like Career versus Streak. One of the best matches of all time.
    Said exceptional circumstances certainly do not mean Hulk Hogan v Sid Justice.

    So, the first question is Ė is there a set of circumstances that transcends the usual week to week storyline arcs and merits going ahead of either the WWE or Universal Title? I donít think so.

    The second question then becomesÖ

    ďHow can we make one of the menís championship matches the most compelling storyline on WWE programmingĒ?

    Or in storyline terms Ė how can we make the title mean as much as possible? How can we define a journey where the contest means as much as possible to the competitors?


    • One option is to go for a babyface underdog. Screwed out of previous opportunities. Adored by the fans. Well overdue an opportunity. A brand-new champion.
    • Another option is to go for a safe pair of hands. A legend. Someone who seamlessly fits into the main event of Wrestlemania.
    • And how do you do either of these things without falling into wrestling tropes. Rehashing old ground. Can you give the audience something fresh? How about something theyíve wanted for years?

    Look at the Roman Reigns heel turn. Look at the Daniel Bryan WM 30 win. Both things the fans salivated for and look at the reactions? Somewhere along the lines WWE forgot first principles Ė give the fans what they want.

    My pick ticks all of these boxes.

    My men will be fighting for the vacant WWE Heavyweight Title.
    One man, adored by the fans, has paid his dues, desperate for his first title reign. He bleeds charisma. Heís a fantastic promo. Heís everything the social media age needs.
    Another man, hated by the fans, fresh off a long-overdue heel turn.

    How do you make the title mean as much as possible? Have an underdog chasing his first versus another chasing a record.

    I present to you the main event of RustyMania



    Next post Iíll explain in more detail.

  4. #4
    OK at Madden Mikey_Jones's Avatar
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    Big E is a good pick, Iíll grant you. But there are a few key flaws within your argument.

    1. John Cena has never been a heel. Ever. Iíll admit, there was a long time where he received mixed crowd reactions for being SuperCena. But those days are long gone. Nowadays, John Cena is instead:

    - The man who has granted over 650 wishes through the Make-a-Wish Foundation, which is the most (by far) of any celebrity. He has even continued granting wishes during the ongoing pandemic. Cena gets a lot of publicity and acknowledgment for this achievement, and quite rightly. Hell, heís even a movie star now and has gained fans outside of wrestling. He is a real-life mega face and itís impossible to believe that John Cena could be seen as a heel figure, regardless of his objective.

    - The man who was last seen in WWE at last year's WrestleMania, where he wrestled The Fiend in a surreal trip through history. Cena lost this match to Wyatt where, at the end, Cenaís motionless body vanished from the ring. And yet you expect Cena to be in a position to challenge for the WWE Title? Thatís hard to swallow. Cena has had his time as an active WWE performer and itís not realistic to think he would return, regardless of any record which is at stake.


    2. Youíre having wrestlers fight over a vacant title? Youíre really willing to have the main event of WrestleMania where neither man is the champion walking in? Itís an absurd situation. Furthermore, youíve stated that youíre trying to make the title mean as much as possible, but the WWE Title is already the most prestigious thing in wrestling. You even mention this yourself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Shackleford View Post
    So, the first question is Ė is there a set of circumstances that transcends the usual week-to-week storyline arcs and merits going ahead of either the WWE or Universal Title? I donít think so.
    So why are you trying to create a circumstance where the WWE title means something? By having it vacant going into WrestleMania?


    In comparison, Iím proposing a feud between two elite wrestlers and there is a multitude of approaches that can be taken with their feud. My personal favourite is two unstoppable machines combining at WrestleMania which will create a moment that lasts a lifetime. Weíve all seen how Roman Reigns can be compelling, but Keith Lee has so much untapped potential. He has a natural ability to connect with fans combined with vicious moves and an incomparable aura. Putting him on a six-month unbeaten streak, progressing through the card until a confrontation with the Tribal Chief is unavoidable? Goosebumps.

    Thatís just one option for my feud, and if needed I can elaborate on others. You have pigeon-holed yourself into one option which doesnít even work.

  5. #5
    Midcarder Rusty Shackleford's Avatar
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    Thanks for your post and for coming out firing. Letís deal with your counter-arguments one by one.
    John Cena has never been a heel. Ever.
    Exactly. And the fans would lap it up, much like theyíre appreciating Roman Reignsí direction now.

    He is a real-life mega face and itís impossible to believe that John Cena could be seen as a heel figure, regardless of his objective.
    I remember another real-life mega face who posed at the end of the first NINE Wrestlemanias. He then conducted one of the best heel-turns in wrestling history, playing a key role in WCWís surge of the mid to late nineties. Itís possible to believe in a heel figure if itís written and booked correctly.

    Cenaís motionless body vanished from the ring. And yet you expect Cena to be in a position to challenge for the WWE Title? Thatís hard to swallow.
    This is wrestling, not a documentary! It just needs to be booked and presented correctly.
    Cena has had his time as an active WWE performer and itís not realistic to think he would return, regardless of any record which is at stake.
    Unfortunately for your argument there is a very real example of this not so long ago. Iím presuming you remember Mr Dwayne Johnson returning for a part-time title run in early 2013? And at the time, The Rock was a significantly bigger movie star than John Cena is now, or ever will be. A quick Google check will show you he was one of the biggest paid movie stars in 2012 (top 5 according to Forbes) yet he still lowered himself, as Iím assuming youíre suggesting, to return to the WWE.
    These people are entertainers and clearly love the WWE. Theyíll do it if the circumstances are correct. John Cena spoke on Jimmy Fallon back in February of this year about his love for wrestling and how he will return. To quoteÖ
    Oh yeah, I will! ÖI'm here, and I'm still away from WWE, but I very much look forward to returning as soon as I possibly can.
    Now onto your other line of argument. The vacant title.

    Youíre having wrestlers fight over a vacant title? Youíre really willing to have the main event of WrestleMania where neither man is the champion walking in? Itís an absurd situation. Furthermore, youíve stated that youíre trying to make the title mean as much as possible, but the WWE Title is already the most prestigious thing in wrestling. You even mention this yourself:
    • Itís not absurd in the slightest. Royal Rumble 1992 is routinely cited as one of the all-time great WWE pay-per-views where Ric Flair won the vacant title. Awkward.
    • Itís all about using it as the right storytelling device. As Spielberg would call it, itís the MacGuffin. The thing that means both everything and nothing at the same time. In WWE, itís the prop that is used to create conflict, the root of all good storytelling.
    • In my scenario the title would never have meant more. John Cena, going for the all-time record title wins versus the babyface going for his first. To achieve that dynamic the title has to be vacant.

    I like your choice, donít get me wrong but itís disingenuous to state that youíve got multiple options for your feud and Iím somehow pigeonholed because (1) youíve not heard how Iíd book it and (2) youíve not elaborated on very much at all. (incidentally, thereís nothing wrong with being pigeonholed if you have the best story)

    My match is simply the bigger event, befitting of the Wrestlemania finale. Not yet another Roman Reigns finish in this era.

  6. #6
    OK at Madden Mikey_Jones's Avatar
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    Your post is full of contradictions:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Shackleford View Post
    I remember another real-life mega face who posed at the end of the first NINE Wrestlemanias.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Shackleford View Post
    Not yet another Roman Reigns finish in this era.
    Citing the positive of Hogan main evenings NINE WrestleMania but complaining about ďyet another Reigns finishĒ. Even then, it plays into the 'well he always main events and wins' spot adding to the unbeatable feel and adding that extra desperation for him to lose that all gets projected onto Keith Lee!


    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Shackleford View Post
    I remember another real-life mega face who posed at the end of the first NINE Wrestlemanias. He then conducted one of the best heel-turns in wrestling history, playing a key role in WCWís surge of the mid to late nineties. Itís possible to believe in a heel figure if itís written and booked correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Shackleford View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mikey
    John Cena has never been a heel. Ever.
    Exactly. And the fans would lap it up, much like theyíre appreciating Roman Reignsí direction now.
    Hogan was actively wrestling at the time for WCW and was positioned as the top active face. Comparing to Cena, who has only had sporadic appearances in the last two years, is an unfair comparison. Even comparing to someone like Edge who returned after a long absence doesnít work. Edge had a history of being a despicable bastard. Cena has never had this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Shackleford View Post
    Itís not absurd in the slightest. Royal Rumble 1992 is routinely cited as one of the all-time great WWE pay-per-views where Ric Flair won the vacant title. Awkward.
    Youíre quoting a ROYAL RUMBLE from 29 years ago, compared to a WRESTLEMANIA main event nowadays. Not a valid comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Shackleford View Post
    These people are entertainers and clearly love the WWE. Theyíll do it if the circumstances are correct. John Cena spoke on Jimmy Fallon back in February of this year about his love for wrestling and how he will return. To quote
    Quote Originally Posted by John Cena
    Oh yeah, I will! ÖI'm here, and I'm still away from WWE, but I very much look forward to returning as soon as I possibly can.

    Letís take a look at another quote from Cena from an interview just three days ago

    Quote Originally Posted by John Cena
    "We all have a window, and I love listening to "Stone Cold" Steve Austin talk about his window. My goal when I stepped foot in WWE was to leave it better than I found it.

    "I want to be where I am and doing what I am, that's why I made that choice. "I think it's really special, and we all think they're never going to go on without us. That's not true. It's more reassuring to me to not only see that WWE has a life after me, which is inevitable for sure, but that the life is thriving.

    "There's so many great storylines, so many great matches. It's called WrestleMania, not CenaMania, you know? I've been a part [of it], and that part is over."
    As I mentioned, itís unrealistic to see John Cena return in the main event. He may be returning at some point but, as Cena says himself, it will not be in the Wrestlemania main event.




    Moving away from those discrepancies, however, brings us to the actual feud leading up to it. You have painted the picture of a babyface going for his first against Cena going for the record. Thatís the storyline. In comparison, I mentioned one possible storyline with Lee on an unbeaten streak meeting the Tribal Chief. However, there are plenty of other approaches that could be taken. Royal Rumble winner? Lee rising through the card? Reigns calling out for the last man who really tested him? Plenty of excellent ways to build the feud.

    In my eyes, you havenít really explained how your match is the bigger event. You seem fairly happy that Reigns/Lee is a great match as you havenít tried to counter it once, let alone contend that it is WrestleMania main event worthy.

  7. #7
    Midcarder Rusty Shackleford's Avatar
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    No contradictions at all my man. Let me explain in order of your replies:

    1. I wasnít citing the positive of Hulk Hogan main eventing nine Wrestlemanias. I was using him as an example of someone who stayed babyface for over a decade in the mainstream then turned heel. A completely different point
    2. The Royal Rumble is a perfectly valid comparison. Itís widely viewed as the second biggest PPV of the year (from the fans perspective). Iím illustrating that thereís precedent of a main event being used for a different purpose to great effect. WWE loves their Ďfirstsí and Ďmomentsí. I invite the judges to imagine the mileage that WWE would get from promoting Wrestlemania as the [insert Vince McMahon voice] FIRST TIME SINCE WM4 that the title has been vacant going into the biggest event of the year.
    3. It doesnít matter how long Cena has been away. You could argue that it makes it all the more impactful in pure shock value were he to return and go heel.
    4. In the John Cena quote you chose heís clearly being extremely diplomatic. Heís arguably the biggest corporate company man in WWE history. Heís hardly going to say ďyeah, theyíre really struggling without me arenít they?Ē Everyone comes back to WWE eventually. You said yourself he may come back at some stage Ė where better than the main event to put someone else over?

    Ultimately Cena is far from finished as a top talent. Heís the same age as AJ Styles. The same age as Brock Lesnar. Slightly younger than Bobby Lashley. Younger than Edge. Seven years younger than Triple H. You really think he doesnít have one last mini-run in him?

    Iíd book Big E to win the Rumble. Cena returns shortly after and causes chaos. A desperate man spoiling match after match trying to get himself inserted into the title picture to get his record. He tears through the main event scene causing the current transitional champ to get kayfabe injured. (Thereís your ready-made feud for the post-WM season). He cheats like a MF to win Elimination Chamber for the right to face Big E for the title.

    The question invites us to create the best main event so I guess I invite the judges to consider what theyíd rather see?

    • A fresh concept in front of a hot crowd with a genuinely uncertain outcome. Will John Cena break the record or is this his last run to put Big E over?
    • The sixth Roman Reigns main event in eight years?

  8. #8
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    This debate is now closed


    But here's a twist....your 2nd judge is NOT Badger. Its Problematic Ross!
    @Jarrod1983 @ProblematicRoss @Mr_Nobody

  9. #9
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    A phenomenal debate.
    But there can be only One.
    The winner becomes a phenomenal One.
    Screw you, AJ Styles.

    Judge ProblematicRoss

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    Judge Comrade1983




    Judge Mr. Nobody






  10. #10
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    How about The Miz vs. Shelton Benjamin. I would be in favor of Triple H vs. Undertaker again, but I reckon I'm the only one so moving on.

    So, these are two guys who have had long careers with the WWE, but neither has main evented The Show. They have both had exceptional performances in Money in the Bank, but one has actually won the match while the other has not. One has been to the top, while the other has not. Both have quite impressive tag team accomplishments, but only one has held to top belt. Going in to this Miz would, of course, play the excellent heel role, while Benjamin is the fan favorite finally getting his chance at the big time. Some fans will want to see The Miz at the top again as the man you love to hate, and some will want Benjamin to finally get his due and follow the likes of Kofi Kingston, Jinder Mahal, and Mankind. Guys who so many times over people would say would never be there. The Miz stomps his way all over the new era of talent all the way until WrestleMania, it looks as though nobody can stop him, that is until Benjamin does the same thing. Benjamin shows his ability to keep pace with those younger guys and prevails over them all. Now, two long time competitors who have both proven they still have what it takes collide. But now it's about so much more, it's not just about proving with age comes experience any more, but does Benjamin stop The Miz from bullying the locker room or does The Miz prove he's just that good?

  11. #11
    Judge Virms - 9th Realm virms's Avatar
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    You would have to be one hell of a debater to get that one through.

  12. #12
    Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    I don’t get why @WWXChairman doesn’t take part in these things when we’ve encouraged him before? He likes to bump these debate threads weeks after the topics over. That’s why I found it weird he was bumping old stuff last year when it was done and dusted.

    Next year take part for real!

  13. #13
    Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by virms View Post
    You would have to be one hell of a debater to get that one through.
    I beat Defrost arguing in favour of the Spirit Squad once. Never say never!

  14. #14
    Judge Virms - 9th Realm virms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProblematicRoss View Post
    I beat Defrost arguing in favour of the Spirit Squad once. Never say never!
    I defeated a host of legitimate super heroes with Barney Stinson from how I met your mother in that celeb thing we did.

  15. #15
    Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by virms View Post
    I defeated a host of legitimate super heroes with Barney Stinson from how I met your mother in that celeb thing we did.
    Think that might have been the same debate where I took the absolute piss and beat somebody with Alan Partridge because I argued how tough he was having survived a cow dropped on him and his foot pierced on a spike. Goes to show you can spin shit into gold with a choice if you’re clever.

    Didn’t @mth say he was going to do a Fiction Fight thingy or something in Board Games when this is over?

  16. #16
    Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Vice/Uncle Phil as Raw GM....the absolute pinnacle.

  17. #17
    Judge Virms - 9th Realm virms's Avatar
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    Somebody said they'd do it. I might entertain running it if he doesn't.

  18. #18
    [[be gay][do crime]] mth's Avatar
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    I don't want to spill all the beans quite yet but some of those beans are Fiction Fight flavored...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProblematicRoss View Post
    I don’t get why @WWXChairman doesn’t take part in these things when we’ve encouraged him before? He likes to bump these debate threads weeks after the topics over. That’s why I found it weird he was bumping old stuff last year when it was done and dusted.

    Next year take part for real!
    Quote Originally Posted by virms View Post
    You would have to be one hell of a debater to get that one through.
    And the long search is over

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