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Thread: Wilfred's Debate: Round21 Tie 4-Rusty Shackleford vs. Peter Griffin

  1. #1
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    Wilfred's Debate: Round21 Tie 4-Rusty Shackleford vs. Peter Griffin

    Rusty Shackleford

    vs.

    Peter Griffin




    Topic:

    Historically, Managers have come and gone in the WWE. We have seen people like Heenan elevate midcarders to the main event. And folks like Heyman can elevate the good to great. Conversely, we've seen some pairings fall flat (Heyman/Axel), which end up wasting resources and screentime.


    Select a current superstar (male or female) that would benefit from pairing them with a manager of your choice (so, specifically name the superstar and who you would have manage them). Demonstrate why this pairing would be positive, and have greater impact than your opponent's recommendation.




    RULES:

    - You each have 24 hours to respond from the time a post goes up (please make BBF and myself aware of any potential delays). You may make up to 3 posts this round .A maximum word count of 400 words per post will be allowed.

    - All posts must be staggered. You can't make your next post until the other debater has had their turn. As stated, replies should typically occur within 24 hours.


    - No editing of posts allowed. Anything that is posted the first time is what will count so choose your words carefully.

    -The first post for the second poster shall not directly rebut points made by the first poster in their initial post.

    - Pictures, gifs and videos can be used in literally unlimited amounts to support your point. Information should be self-contained within your post. For example, you can't post a link to an article and expect people to go read it. Quote it in your post.

    The order of posting will be determined by a coin toss. The coin toss has revealed that Rusty will be going first!


    Judges for the Match:
    Mr. Nobody
    Badger
    Virms

  2. #2
    Midcarder Rusty Shackleford's Avatar
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    Really interesting question.

    As the question hints at, there is no magic formula for this and recent history has thrown up as many misses as hits.

    The natural tendency for a question like this is to go for untapped potential and the stereotypical response would be to pick the wrestler with the most natural talent that is hindered by a lack of quality on the microphone. As much as I'm tempted to chuck, say Alesteir Black, a mouthpiece, I'm going to go for a slightly different approach that I believe has the potential to benefit WWE programming as a whole and fix a current problem.

    Instead, I'm going for a superstar who I believe is currently floundering. A superstar that I believe the WWE are in danger of running out of ideas with. But one who (a) still has tonnes of upside, (b) has a track record of engaging the audience with the right booking and (c) would benefit from a fundamental change of direction (something we're reaping the rewards of with Roman Reigns)

    My pick fits each of these criteria. My pick is Braun Strowman.

    So, with the first part of the exam question answered, we move onto who to pair him with.

    First, we should establish the criteria we're looking for in a manager. You need a presence and character of your own. You certainly need capability on the microphone and last of all, chemistry with your talent. But perhaps most importantly, you need to book a logical, believable progression from the superstar's current situation to the next stage of his career.

    This situation is staring us in the face right now. Post Wrestlemania, I'm booking Braun Strowman to go on a main event rampage with Shane McMahon by his side.

    Book it. Then here comes the money.

  3. #3
    Alrite? Peter Griffin's Avatar
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    spain
    I was really struggling here to be honest, But then. Out of nowhere I had a flash of inspiration.

    There are a handful of guys who are not being used to their overall potential, and sometimes a factor in this can be they are missing a certain facet, and this question focuses on the fact they may not be the best talker.

    So with that said I believe Aleister Black is the perfect choice here.

    He has a unique look and moveset (based on striking), He even has a unique character, the one think missing is a mouthpiece, His character on itself doesn't need to and maybe shouldn't speak but to sustain and build feuds and heat someone needs to do this for him, But his character would suffer if you get a manager say like mvp who is great but his sthick doesn't fit (Think Brother Love and Taker who then went to Paul Bearer)

    So who would fit in with Aleister Black, Well look no further than the Sinister Minister himself, Father James Mitchell.

  4. #4
    Midcarder Rusty Shackleford's Avatar
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    Congratulations on your flash of inspiration of a mouthpiece for Alesteir Black. I can't imagine where these revolutionary ideas must come from.

    *Double checks first post to make sure Rusty remembers suggesting that very thing*

    Sarcasm aside, I do think it's a good pick and one that is potentially necessary to take Mr Black to the next level. Full disclosure here though, I had to Google your manager selection as I don't really watch anything outside of WWE and a smattering of AEW so you won't be getting any in depth rebuttals on that front. Maybe in the last post once I do a bit of research. At first glance though it does seem a bit "throw a couple of dudes with a darker gimmick together" and hope it works. Perhaps we could get Gangrel out of retirement while we're at it. Throw in the Boogeyman and make a stable. I'll look forward to the logic behind it in your next posts.

    The main reason why I didn't choose AB in the end is that I was nervous about taking the "man who needs a mouthpiece route" as it's too obvious. Especially in the post-kayfabe era where such a move might be seen as a perceived weakness. Papering over the cracks.

    The reason why the pairing of Roman Reigns and Heyman has worked so well is that it's added much needed depth and a change of direction to the character. Reigns didn't need a mouthpiece. He needed a fresh start.

    My pick is exactly the same but for different reasons.

    They simply don't know what to do with Strowman. He's the big man with the talent of someone smaller. He can't take losses believably so you end up with all manner of bookings and gimmicks to write your way out of situations. It's the reason why he's in a gimmick match with Shane, the reason why he won the tag titles with a child and the reason he only won the big strap as a substitute. WWE believes in him, but they don't know what to do.

    A pairing with McMahon gives them a much needed out and believable transition from their current storyline.

    Shane makes him see the light, wise up and get back to working smarter. Fuck shit up and leave. The corporate assassin.

    My pick is interesting. Yours is safe.

  5. #5
    Alrite? Peter Griffin's Avatar
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    spain
    Well I may have to go through your post backwards here.

    Firstly You say James Mitchell with Black is a safe choice, I am not sure about this I think you may mean obvious, there's a subtle difference. It's obvious Black needs a reboot/revamp of some kind so why not go with that?

    Does Braun need something new as well?
    Yes definitely.
    Is Shane McMahon the answer? I don't believe so.

    It's nothing to do with Shane's abilities, I just don't think it makes any sense.
    Why would Braun align himself with Shane after being mocked and denigrated for weeks as some meathead thicko, I'd he does go with Shane it would just prove him right and make Braun look like even more of a chump than he already does.

    Also there are a select few wrestlers who go against the grain in that they don't need someone to be their mouthpiece to enhance there character as they don't really need a character.

    Just go back to basics, Have brain let his work do the talking my smacking fools upside the head, It seemed to work post Wyatt family before they 'developed' his personality.

    Now for my choice, I honestly can't put it any more simply, His look and character would absolutely mesh with and enhance, they are both heavily into the occult.

    James can also talk, really well and if you look at his run in ecw and tna, I can't think of one person he managed or even had an association with that didn't benefit and get a 'rub'.

    From Tajiri and Mikey, through Abyss and most recently his work with Rosemary and Su Yung, he is a benefit to all and would benifit Alistair Black.

  6. #6
    Midcarder Rusty Shackleford's Avatar
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    Storylines always work best when there is a natural progression. You say that it wouldn't make sense for Braun to align with Shane and would simply make Braun look like more of a chump? It's all down to the quality of the writing. Perfectly feasible that Shane is playing the long game and trying to wake the monster again. Have them align for mutual benefit.

    And wrestling is about entertainment. Some of the best moments through time have been heel and face turns.

    Janetty through the barbershop window. The Austin/Bret double turn. Bryan rejecting the Wyatt family. Batista thumbs down. Hulk Hogan is the third man. Jericho giving Owens his own list.

    Who can honestly say that turns, alignments and sudden character progressions aren't some of the best and most memorable moments in wrestling?

    My pick gives us potentially two of these. The first when Braun turns and goes on a wrecking spree with Shane. The second when he eventually comes to his senses and Shane takes an incredible bump in the process.

    Now onto your pick.

    Firstly, i really commend you for going with a leftfield choice of manager and perhaps in your last post you'll help lay out the logic as to how you'll get them together.

    It's difficult to really push back on your choice though as you've given me so little to work with. They're both into the occult... that's about it? How does this extend Black's character? How does this benefit WWE programming?

    In my choice you get instant rejuvenation of someone who is a proven main eventer when written well. You get instant legitimacy of a main storyline to carry WWE programming. You get the shock factor of the initial turn.

    Your choice is underwhelming and involves hiring someone that the majority of WWE audiences (remember, WWE caters for casual, social media generation fans) simply won't be familiar with. If James Mitchell is so talented then out of anyone you could have chosen in the wrestling world, why has he not achieved more?

    I'll close my last post by reiterating that the question invites the judges to figure out which choice has the most potential benefit. I believe that I've outlined that my choice not only benefits the career of the superstar himself, but wider WWE programming.

  7. #7
    Alrite? Peter Griffin's Avatar
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    spain
    Well, it was nice if you to shoot yourself in the foot within a few words, 'The quality of the writing' lol.
    Yes of course face and heel turns CAN make sense and enhance characters and the product, But the hazey days of Brian Gerwitz or the attitude era this Is not, It would revert to some bullshit within a few weeks.

    There is an argument that after the non sensical split of the hurt business, The only real consistent, entertaining character is the fiend, After he's finished with Orton what next?

    Well why not have a returning Black now with Mitchell by his side and tapping into the darker side of his character come back and attack the fiend, which instantly puts him In a top program and shows him willing to step up to the fiend.
    Alternatively you could have mitchell and Black come in WITH Wyatt and form a new wyatt family if sorts, this again instantly puts black back into the top of the card.

    As for your last points.

    How would I introduce them as a pair, well I've kind of answered this above, But I guess before either of those scenarios you air some famous WWE vignettes that allude to who or what is coming but not show them (black) But have Mitchell narrate them and outline what his and his clients intentions are.

    Lastly you say you can't push back because I haven't given much, I say it's because you don't know much about him. Remember Google is your friend , with Google you probably wouldn't be coming up with nonsense like he's not achieved much.

  8. #8
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    This debate is now closed.


    I commend it to the hands of the judges.
    @Mr_Nobody @Badger @virms

    If Mr Nobody is still on vacation, I'll ask Comrade83 to step in.


    Of course, its highly likely that this was a fake vacation and 83 has him sitting in a Siberian prison, even as we speak.

  9. #9
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    A fiery debate among the judges, reminiscent of the exchanges between Ginsburg and Scalia.



    Judge ProblematicRoss


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    Judge Virms of the 9 realms











    Judge Mr. Nobody






  10. #10
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    I can see the reaction to this, but I would pair Edge and David Otunga. Otunga is educated and has a legal background. His argument skills could be a great fit, and Edge can be intense too but everybody needs their own mouthpiece, and Edge is a recognized Legend.

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