Wilfred's Debate: Round21 Tie 4-Rusty Shackleford vs. Peter Griffin
Rusty Shackleford
vs.
Peter Griffin
Topic:
Historically, Managers have come and gone in the WWE. We have seen people like Heenan elevate midcarders to the main event. And folks like Heyman can elevate the good to great. Conversely, we've seen some pairings fall flat (Heyman/Axel), which end up wasting resources and screentime.
Select a current superstar (male or female) that would benefit from pairing them with a manager of your choice (so, specifically name the superstar and who you would have manage them). Demonstrate why this pairing would be positive, and have greater impact than your opponent's recommendation.
RULES:
- You each have 24 hours to respond from the time a post goes up (please make BBF and myself aware of any potential delays). You may make up to 3 posts this round .A maximum word count of 400 words per post will be allowed.
- All posts must be staggered. You can't make your next post until the other debater has had their turn. As stated, replies should typically occur within 24 hours.
- No editing of posts allowed. Anything that is posted the first time is what will count so choose your words carefully.
-The first post for the second poster shall not directly rebut points made by the first poster in their initial post.
- Pictures, gifs and videos can be used in literally unlimited amounts to support your point. Information should be self-contained within your post. For example, you can't post a link to an article and expect people to go read it. Quote it in your post.
The order of posting will be determined by a coin toss. The coin toss has revealed that Rusty will be going first!
As the question hints at, there is no magic formula for this and recent history has thrown up as many misses as hits.
The natural tendency for a question like this is to go for untapped potential and the stereotypical response would be to pick the wrestler with the most natural talent that is hindered by a lack of quality on the microphone. As much as I'm tempted to chuck, say Alesteir Black, a mouthpiece, I'm going to go for a slightly different approach that I believe has the potential to benefit WWE programming as a whole and fix a current problem.
Instead, I'm going for a superstar who I believe is currently floundering. A superstar that I believe the WWE are in danger of running out of ideas with. But one who (a) still has tonnes of upside, (b) has a track record of engaging the audience with the right booking and (c) would benefit from a fundamental change of direction (something we're reaping the rewards of with Roman Reigns)
My pick fits each of these criteria. My pick is Braun Strowman.
So, with the first part of the exam question answered, we move onto who to pair him with.
First, we should establish the criteria we're looking for in a manager. You need a presence and character of your own. You certainly need capability on the microphone and last of all, chemistry with your talent. But perhaps most importantly, you need to book a logical, believable progression from the superstar's current situation to the next stage of his career.
This situation is staring us in the face right now. Post Wrestlemania, I'm booking Braun Strowman to go on a main event rampage with Shane McMahon by his side.
I was really struggling here to be honest, But then. Out of nowhere I had a flash of inspiration.
There are a handful of guys who are not being used to their overall potential, and sometimes a factor in this can be they are missing a certain facet, and this question focuses on the fact they may not be the best talker.
So with that said I believe Aleister Black is the perfect choice here.
He has a unique look and moveset (based on striking), He even has a unique character, the one think missing is a mouthpiece, His character on itself doesn't need to and maybe shouldn't speak but to sustain and build feuds and heat someone needs to do this for him, But his character would suffer if you get a manager say like mvp who is great but his sthick doesn't fit (Think Brother Love and Taker who then went to Paul Bearer)
So who would fit in with Aleister Black, Well look no further than the Sinister Minister himself, Father James Mitchell.
Congratulations on your flash of inspiration of a mouthpiece for Alesteir Black. I can't imagine where these revolutionary ideas must come from.
*Double checks first post to make sure Rusty remembers suggesting that very thing*
Sarcasm aside, I do think it's a good pick and one that is potentially necessary to take Mr Black to the next level. Full disclosure here though, I had to Google your manager selection as I don't really watch anything outside of WWE and a smattering of AEW so you won't be getting any in depth rebuttals on that front. Maybe in the last post once I do a bit of research. At first glance though it does seem a bit "throw a couple of dudes with a darker gimmick together" and hope it works. Perhaps we could get Gangrel out of retirement while we're at it. Throw in the Boogeyman and make a stable. I'll look forward to the logic behind it in your next posts.
The main reason why I didn't choose AB in the end is that I was nervous about taking the "man who needs a mouthpiece route" as it's too obvious. Especially in the post-kayfabe era where such a move might be seen as a perceived weakness. Papering over the cracks.
The reason why the pairing of Roman Reigns and Heyman has worked so well is that it's added much needed depth and a change of direction to the character. Reigns didn't need a mouthpiece. He needed a fresh start.
My pick is exactly the same but for different reasons.
They simply don't know what to do with Strowman. He's the big man with the talent of someone smaller. He can't take losses believably so you end up with all manner of bookings and gimmicks to write your way out of situations. It's the reason why he's in a gimmick match with Shane, the reason why he won the tag titles with a child and the reason he only won the big strap as a substitute. WWE believes in him, but they don't know what to do.
A pairing with McMahon gives them a much needed out and believable transition from their current storyline.
Shane makes him see the light, wise up and get back to working smarter. Fuck shit up and leave. The corporate assassin.
Well I may have to go through your post backwards here.
Firstly You say James Mitchell with Black is a safe choice, I am not sure about this I think you may mean obvious, there's a subtle difference. It's obvious Black needs a reboot/revamp of some kind so why not go with that?
Does Braun need something new as well?
Yes definitely.
Is Shane McMahon the answer? I don't believe so.
It's nothing to do with Shane's abilities, I just don't think it makes any sense.
Why would Braun align himself with Shane after being mocked and denigrated for weeks as some meathead thicko, I'd he does go with Shane it would just prove him right and make Braun look like even more of a chump than he already does.
Also there are a select few wrestlers who go against the grain in that they don't need someone to be their mouthpiece to enhance there character as they don't really need a character.
Just go back to basics, Have brain let his work do the talking my smacking fools upside the head, It seemed to work post Wyatt family before they 'developed' his personality.
Now for my choice, I honestly can't put it any more simply, His look and character would absolutely mesh with and enhance, they are both heavily into the occult.
James can also talk, really well and if you look at his run in ecw and tna, I can't think of one person he managed or even had an association with that didn't benefit and get a 'rub'.
From Tajiri and Mikey, through Abyss and most recently his work with Rosemary and Su Yung, he is a benefit to all and would benifit Alistair Black.
Storylines always work best when there is a natural progression. You say that it wouldn't make sense for Braun to align with Shane and would simply make Braun look like more of a chump? It's all down to the quality of the writing. Perfectly feasible that Shane is playing the long game and trying to wake the monster again. Have them align for mutual benefit.
And wrestling is about entertainment. Some of the best moments through time have been heel and face turns.
Janetty through the barbershop window. The Austin/Bret double turn. Bryan rejecting the Wyatt family. Batista thumbs down. Hulk Hogan is the third man. Jericho giving Owens his own list.
Who can honestly say that turns, alignments and sudden character progressions aren't some of the best and most memorable moments in wrestling?
My pick gives us potentially two of these. The first when Braun turns and goes on a wrecking spree with Shane. The second when he eventually comes to his senses and Shane takes an incredible bump in the process.
Now onto your pick.
Firstly, i really commend you for going with a leftfield choice of manager and perhaps in your last post you'll help lay out the logic as to how you'll get them together.
It's difficult to really push back on your choice though as you've given me so little to work with. They're both into the occult... that's about it? How does this extend Black's character? How does this benefit WWE programming?
In my choice you get instant rejuvenation of someone who is a proven main eventer when written well. You get instant legitimacy of a main storyline to carry WWE programming. You get the shock factor of the initial turn.
Your choice is underwhelming and involves hiring someone that the majority of WWE audiences (remember, WWE caters for casual, social media generation fans) simply won't be familiar with. If James Mitchell is so talented then out of anyone you could have chosen in the wrestling world, why has he not achieved more?
I'll close my last post by reiterating that the question invites the judges to figure out which choice has the most potential benefit. I believe that I've outlined that my choice not only benefits the career of the superstar himself, but wider WWE programming.
Well, it was nice if you to shoot yourself in the foot within a few words, 'The quality of the writing' lol.
Yes of course face and heel turns CAN make sense and enhance characters and the product, But the hazey days of Brian Gerwitz or the attitude era this Is not, It would revert to some bullshit within a few weeks.
There is an argument that after the non sensical split of the hurt business, The only real consistent, entertaining character is the fiend, After he's finished with Orton what next?
Well why not have a returning Black now with Mitchell by his side and tapping into the darker side of his character come back and attack the fiend, which instantly puts him In a top program and shows him willing to step up to the fiend.
Alternatively you could have mitchell and Black come in WITH Wyatt and form a new wyatt family if sorts, this again instantly puts black back into the top of the card.
As for your last points.
How would I introduce them as a pair, well I've kind of answered this above, But I guess before either of those scenarios you air some famous WWE vignettes that allude to who or what is coming but not show them (black) But have Mitchell narrate them and outline what his and his clients intentions are.
Lastly you say you can't push back because I haven't given much, I say it's because you don't know much about him. Remember Google is your friend , with Google you probably wouldn't be coming up with nonsense like he's not achieved much.
A fiery debate among the judges, reminiscent of the exchanges between Ginsburg and Scalia.
Judge ProblematicRoss
Originally Posted by Badger
Okay deciding to go with my gut because may take me a day or two any longer before I watch but deciding to go with Mr Griffin but do have some constructive criticism.
Clever move by Peter to throw Father Mitchell at him but ultimately he struggled to rebut and came down to trying to discredit him based on the casual fan not knowing Father Mitchell. I wasn’t a big fan of Peter just saying Rusty should Google more in his last post plus his comment about Fiend possibly only being the most interesting character threw me off but ultimately thought Peter had a better plan whereas Rusty seemed to mainly go for shock value.
Win to Mr Griffin in my view and enjoy it but tighten up your end game for future
Judge Virms of the 9 realms
Originally Posted by virms
Virm Logs Day 28
Location: Orbit Earth Prime
After taking Golden Baby Badger with me I decided to explore the lore on this child. Turns out across the multiverse there is legend of a child that will be born that will stop a monster from destroying everything and everyone in all the multiverses. Interesting. I had planned on feeding this Golden Baby Badger to my cat but we will see how this plays out. I like a good story as much as I love a good debate. Speaking of which....
Wilfred's Debate: Round 2 Tie 4-Rusty Shackleford vs. Peter Griffin
Ah, the age old question of which superstar would benefit the most from being paired with a manager. This topic is one that never gets old and sparks a lot of conversation between wrestling fans both old and new. Rusty starts us off with a very interesting combo that could play very seamlessly into a current storyline. An interesting take for sure but one that has caught my attention. I am looking forward to how it plays out. PG, oh, PG, what a fascinating take this is. Not just on the combo level of black and Mitchell but straight up lifting from Rusty and turning it around on him. Digging the ingenuity.
Getting into the meat and potatoes of this as we launch into the first rebuttals we have some solid points from both men. Rusty let's us see how a Braun/Shane duo would be more for the same reasons as a reigns/Heyman duo in that it would be for a fresh start vs. showing a perceived weakness on the stick. Peter though, tears down the booking of a Braun and Shane alliance that really will need rebutted by Rusty as it is a very strong point. I honestly feel like this could turn into a booking debate to see who wins.
When having a debate it is key to dissect your opponents views. Rusty in his final post put out a clinical in my opinion. Like he was chopping tree by tree down. I really felt this was the end for Mr. Griffin but he also was not to be outdone. Peter laid down some bombs with how WWE writing can screw everything up coupled along with a few examples of how that's been done. This was definitely enough to cast doubt in my mind requiring me to reread again. As Rusty said, this is about showing who has the most potential being aligned with a manager. What has finally led me to a decision is Rusty presented the entire angle from start to finish showing me the build and how it could benefit Braun overall. It was this slightly more fleshed out argument that pushes Rusty, barely, into the winners column for me. This would be a lot easier to pick if one of you sucked. Great debate!
The sound of a siren wakes Golden Baby Badger into a crying fit. It is at this moment I see the resemblance between this little baby and a typical Badger. Caught between trying to comfort the child and shutting off the siren, I realized I needed a nanny of some sort. For now, the trusty old and reliable nude pic of mazer, somewhat calms the child long enough for me to tend to the siren. Something big has changed in the multiverse. In fact, it appears Mazer has a back up plan for protecting the Earth Prime Badger should I break our deal. The message before me sent a chill down to my soul.
Badger of Earth Prime no longer exists.
This is very problematic.
Judge Mr. Nobody
Originally Posted by Mr_Nobody
Rusty vs. Peter
First, I still don't know who I would pick for this, so good job on coming up with two choices that are pretty solid. Second, I loved how both of you slow played your first post, as it's a great strategy to allow for more later. Also, I feel as if both continued to slow play it for their first rebuttal posts, both doing fairly well in trying to debunk the other, but still only reaffirming why their choice is the better one.
It's not until their final rebuttal that things really heat up. Rusty's focus on the storyline to pair Braun and Shane is logical and make sense, as well as his comment that, pairing Black and Mitchell up because they're both occult characters needs more. Peter did come back with a decent idea for storyline, with the vignettes and who Black and Mitchell should be in a storyline with. However, in the end, I feel as if Rusty did a better job of showing why the pairing of Braun with Shane would be more beneficial than Peter did with his pairing of Black and Mitchell.
Winner Rusty
Rusty squeaks by in a close one. Good job to both competitors. Thank you Peter Griffin, great run and particularly excellent work with winning the requalification vote. And congratulations to Defending Champ Rusty for advancing.
I can see the reaction to this, but I would pair Edge and David Otunga. Otunga is educated and has a legal background. His argument skills could be a great fit, and Edge can be intense too but everybody needs their own mouthpiece, and Edge is a recognized Legend.
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, with Google you probably wouldn't be coming up with nonsense like he's not achieved much.
Originally Posted by Badger
