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Thread: Wilfred's Debate Round 2 Match 3: Mikey Jones vs Mth

  1. #1
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    Wilfred's Debate Round 2 Match 3: Mikey Jones vs Mth

    Topic:

    Over the last year, we've seen a difference in WWE presentation that we hadn't anticipated: the lack of live audiences. Over the last 12 months, we've seen WWE present a product that was not impacted by a physical audience responses to storylines or performers. Certainly, in the television experience, this created less spontaneous reaction. Conversely, it granted more direct control of reaction and story to WWE writers and producers.


    Your topic: Select a WWE wrestler (male or female) who has been most positively impacted by the lack of live audience. Demonstrate why the effect was more positive to your selection than to your opponent's choice.




    RULES:

    - You each have 24 hours to respond from the time a post goes up (please make BBF and myself aware of any potential delays). You may make up to 3 posts this round .A maximum word count of 400 words per post will be allowed.

    - All posts must be staggered. You can't make your next post until the other debater has had their turn. As stated, replies should typically occur within 24 hours.


    - No editing of posts allowed. Anything that is posted the first time is what will count so choose your words carefully.

    -The first post for the second poster shall not directly rebut points made by the first poster in their initial post.

    - Pictures, gifs and videos can be used in literally unlimited amounts to support your point. Information should be self-contained within your post. For example, you can't post a link to an article and expect people to go read it. Quote it in your post.

    The order of posting will be determined by a coin toss. The coin toss has revealed that mth will be going first!


    Judges for the Match:
    Mr. Nobody
    Badger
    Virms
    Last edited by Mazer; April 5th, 2021 at 3:38 PM.

  2. #2
    [[be gay]][[do crimes]] mth's Avatar
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    There once was a man named Bray Wyatt
    whose ideas he just couldn't keep quiet,
    so he told Vince McMahon
    who said, “Let's do what we can,
    without crowds, it's the best time to try it.”

    Since he couldn't let them in, it was a great time to LET HIM IN.



    No WWE superstar has benefited more from the crowdless era than Bray Wyatt.
    WWE has never been more theatrical than during the pandemic and he is by far their most theatrical character. This period has allowed almost unlimited creativity with his character and he has thrived because of it.
    Cinematic matches became a PPV staple thanks to the success of two prominent ones at 2020's WrestleMania, one of which was the incredibly experimental FireFly Funhouse Match.
    Outside of this era, you can be certain this match would have never taken place but instead, thanks to the first crowd-free Mania, Wyatt was able to bring Cena into his unique world in a “match” unlike any other that allowed for a surreal journey that traversed through various locations and parts of both Cena and Wyatt's careers and even dipped into alternate realities.
    Another later cinematic match with Strowman allowed Wyatt to shift between personas and delve into their past in a way no in-ring match ever could.
    But Wyatt's advantages were not limited only to cinematic matches but now in-ring promos and encounters could utilize special effects and editing that could not have been done in front of an audience...
    Instant transformations.
    A Playground materializing and disappearing in an instant.
    Light fixtures falling from the sky.
    A ThunderDome filled with Alexa Bliss's laughing visage.
    Flames. So many flames. Everywhere.
    Oh yeah, and A MAN BEING BURNED ALIVE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RING.
    Love it or hate it, it doesn't matter, the fact of the matter is this:
    Wyatt's pandemic era has allowed for a virtually unrestrained creative freedom that has allowed him to be and do whatever he wants in ways he never could if everything were normal.
    It has been “a new normal” for everyone.
    It has been anything but normal for all of us, and for WWE, and for Bray Wyatt...
    ...but Wyatt is anything but normal, easily the least normal superstar in WWE, and easily the one who has embraced and made the most of the most abnormal period in WWE history.

  3. #3
    OK at Madden Mikey_Jones's Avatar
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    2015. Roman Reigns wins the Royal Rumble, with the help of THE ROCK, to mass boos

    2016. Roman Reigns wins the title at WrestleMania 32 to mass boos.

    2016. WWE edit out anti-Roman Reigns signs from the audience

    2017. A fan’s negative reaction to Roman Reigns losing is edited by WWE.

    2018, MITB. Roman Reigns vs Jinder Madal. Within two minutes, chants of "CM Punk" and "Boring" are heard. The crowd play with a beach ball and perform a Mexican Wave


    You get the point. Roman Reigns has not been a popular person with the live audiences in WWE. Ever since The Shield broke up, WWE have tried again and again to push Roman Reigns as the top guy and the crowd have continually rebelled. Hell, there’s even a whole Wikipedia article about how unpopular Roman Reigns has been with the crowd. It just hasn’t worked for Roman as the fans continually rejected him.

    But let’s take a look at Roman’s last year. After missing some time due to being immunocompromised, he returned in August and aligned himself with Paul Heyman. As the “Tribal Chief”, Roman has been on a rampage as a dominant heel. Most notable, however, is just how well it’s gone. No “boring” chants during matches. No mass boos from the audience. Just the Tribal Chief taking part in excellent feuds. Speaking of feuds, let’s examine one in more detail.




    Listen closely. You can hear in painstaking detail the raw emotion of each wrestler. The referee pleading with Jey to quit, but Roman denying him. “All you had to do was acknowledge me”. Jimmy running in and the pure emotion of the moment hits Roman as he collapses and apologies for what he’s done to his family. Pure heartbreak.

    Until he snaps and chokes the life out of Jimmy, causing Jey to quit just to save his family.




    An incredible moment. One which would NEVER have happened with an audience. The words would be lost to the boring "WHAT" chants. The emotion would be drowned out. We wouldn’t be able to take in the heartfelt words. But these words made us aware of how far the Tribal Chief would go and added so much to his character.

    With an audience, we've seen how the crowd pushes back against Roman time and time again. But without the crowd, Roman has blossomed into the best wrestler in the WWE.

  4. #4
    [[be gay]][[do crimes]] mth's Avatar
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    Did you pick someone who flourished during the crowdless era? Absolutely.
    But did you pick someone who flourished because of it? No.
    You picked someone who underwent a drastic, long overdue character change.
    Roman Reigns is one of the best things in WWE not because there's no crowd in the stands but because he finally became what most people have thought he could/should become for years and is proving that “if he'd just turn heel, he'd be awesome” was right all along.
    You point out how rejected by the fans overpushed, Cena-esque, babyface Roman has been but then, for some reason, you also assume that he'd still be getting that same response even after having a complete 180 character change?
    You talk about match subtleties being drowned out by an uninterested crowd despite the fact that he has become one of the most interesting characters in the company. The crowd being there wouldn't be the only difference, Roman is a completely different character in this scenario.
    Would Roman's recent run be affected by a crowd being present? Sure.
    But would it be hindered? No.
    No, Roman could still take time off to be with his family as his wife had a second set of twins in 2020.
    He could still return, align with Heyman, and turn heel.
    He could still become the Head of The Table.
    The only difference?
    All that vitriol he used to get from the crowd? Now he'd be getting it for a reason: because he's an talented performer with a fantastic heel persona.
    So maybe some of the more nuanced in-ring things would have to be tweaked but maybe they wouldn't. The camera would still pick up on dialogue, emotion, and facial expressions. The home audience would still see and hear it. The commentary team would still address it.
    At worst, maybe Roman would have to make some minor changes to how his Tribal Chief run was accomplished but only to accommodate for the nuclear heat he'd be getting (heat that is now desired) but I fail to see that being a significant detriment to what he's done.
    Meanwhile, Wyatt literally could not do the vast majority of things he's done over this time.
    His current incarnation legitimately would not exist.
    Roman's would and honestly, would probably be doing even better with a crowd that latches on and loves to hate an amazing heel.

  5. #5
    OK at Madden Mikey_Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mth View Post
    Roman Reigns is one of the best things in WWE not because there's no crowd in the stands but because he finally became what most people have thought he could/should become for years and is proving that “if he'd just turn heel, he'd be awesome” was right all along.

    You talk about match subtleties being drowned out by an uninterested crowd despite the fact that he has become one of the most interesting characters in the company. The crowd being there wouldn't be the only difference, Roman is a completely different character in this scenario.

    Would Roman's recent run be affected by a crowd being present? Sure.

    But would it be hindered? No.

    I disagree and, more importantly, Reigns himself disagrees in this article. As Reigns himself states:

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman Reigns
    Being in this time, in these pandemic times, you gotta be able to pull out different layers to your performance, different attributes and show different tools. And that’s what I’ve done over the past six months is show a different side of me as a performer. Completely change the dynamics to my matches and the way people perceive my storytelling in-ring.

    Added so much more dialogue; to now everybody cuts a promo while they’re wrestling … and they can’t! Because I’m the one that’s doing it at the top level.
    The very fact the audience isn’t there has meant that Roman’s character and story-telling has flourished. It’s allowed him to develop his persona - as I pointed out, the crowd has continuously drowned out anything involving Reigns and it’s logical to assume the same, regardless of alignment. These promos and matches have been presented in a way more akin to a TV drama than a wrestling show. It is impossible that this character would have developed without these nuances.

    However, the same cannot be said for Wyatt. There is no doubt the matches and effects have been cool, but has Bray Wyatt been positively impacted by these events?

    That cinematic match with Strowman? Literally the worst match of the year. It was garbage and I don’t see how it positively impacted The Fiend at all. Just have a look at this scathing review. To pick just one quote, “This segment was so far out of touch with the pulse of the audience that it reminded me of 1998-2000 WCW when they were running off viewers at a record pace”. It’s such a negative point I don’t see why you would bring this up as a positive impact. It’s like saying that Rey Mysterio getting lobbed off a skyscraper helped his career?



    Quote Originally Posted by mth View Post
    Instant transformations.
    A Playground materializing and disappearing in an instant.
    Light fixtures falling from the sky.
    A ThunderDome filled with Alexa Bliss's laughing visage.
    Flames. So many flames. Everywhere.
    Oh yeah, and A MAN BEING BURNED ALIVE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RING.
    The man burned alive WAS The Fiend. Being burned alive does not positively impact your character. I'm not sure being set on fire and going missing for months is a massive career help. What has Bray Wyatt actually done with these cool, cinematic moments? Even if it did help him this year, these cinematic moments aren’t new or unique:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F7GAlQjNw8




    They have happened before with Bray, and where has it led him? The effects are cool, but Bray Wyatt the wrestler was not positively impacted.

  6. #6
    [[be gay]][[do crimes]] mth's Avatar
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    Roman is saying the pandemic forced him to rethink his approach to the craft, much like it did everyone else, the only difference being that Roman sought to do it better and did exactly that. Your article shows that Roman is intelligent, adaptable, and driven to succeed.
    That would remain the same with a crowd.
    As would the time off, the alliance with Heyman, and embracing his role as Head of the Table and Tribal Chief.
    You can add a crowd (that always gives him the loudest reactions as per your article), and he's going to do exactly the same thing he's proven he can do: approach it with smarts and the desire to shine brighter than the rest.
    And we know he can because he has.
    So, while you see him failing because you give credit to the situation and not to the man, I'm going to give credit where it's due and acknowledge my Tribal Cheif.
    So yes, he'd have to make adjustments, as I already admitted to, but the pandemic era has only proven what we all knew all along: Roman's always had it in him.
    Adding a crowd doesn't diminish Roman's ability.
    Watch him tonight.

    Regarding the Strowman match, not every DaVinci was the Mona Lisa but if his creativity was limited, he may have never produced it. The freedom is the point. There will be hits (Firefly Funhouse Match) and there will be misses but it's the chance to take those wild swings that are the benefit. The only person who came out of that worse off was Strowman. He's goddamn cartoon train now. Wyatt was not only unfazed but immediately moved on to his fascinating partnership with Alexa Bliss (another benefit) and won the Universal Title.

    Being burned alive does not positively impact your character.
    Kane? Undertaker? You seem to disregard that this is storytelling. Drama, intrigue, and curiosity don't matter? What Bray has done with these moments is created a buzz and made for a unique must-see character and product.
    Bray Wyatt the wrestler is not on Main Event. He is not floundering in the midcard.
    He is a starring character who is evolving and thriving.
    To say he hasn't benefited would be to completely disregard his current persona.
    With a crowd: Bray would not be a crispy critter but Roman would still be an epic heel.

  7. #7
    OK at Madden Mikey_Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mth View Post
    Regarding the Strowman match, not every DaVinci was the Mona Lisa but if his creativity was limited, he may have never produced it. The freedom is the point. There will be hits (Firefly Funhouse Match) and there will be misses but it's the chance to take those wild swings that are the benefit. The only person who came out of that worse off was Strowman. He's goddamn cartoon train now. Wyatt was not only unfazed but immediately moved on to his fascinating partnership with Alexa Bliss (another benefit) and won the Universal Title.
    Surely it doesn’t matter if the match was unique and had freedom - it was absolutely terrible and helped neither character. You admit that it was rubbish but try and claim it only affected Strowman? That’s hard to believe. Looking at the rest of Wyatt’s year, he did indeed capture the Universal Title which he lost exactly one week later, an utterly forgettable reign. He then disappeared for a few weeks before the Randy Orton feud, going back and forth before tonight's WrestleMania match. Upper midcard to main event status.


    Which is exactly where he was last year in his program with John Cena. Sure, it led to a unique match but Bray Wyatt’s character has not progressed at all in the last 12 months. Stuck in the same spot on the card, facing Randy Orton at WrestleMania - which happened back in 2017 anyway. Remember the cinematic segment on Smackdown where Orton burnt down Wyatt's shack? What exactly has been the positive impact if he was able to have cinematic moments back in 2017 and hasn't progressed up the card?





    Bray Wyatt is not a must-see character right now. His matches are underdelivering and his feuds repetitive. However, this is the complete opposite for Roman Reigns, as you’ve kindly agreed. But you haven’t really tried to counter the aspects of Reigns’ promos which made him unique. These different layers only existed because of the pandemic and lack of crowds. Watch the video between Jey Uso and Reigns again. That match, and feud is impossible with a crowd. It has only worked because of the lack of audience

    Reigns' Tribal Chief gimmick has been so well received by fans that they would have been likely to cheer him, which always happens to the 'cool' heels in WWE because they are incapable of making strong baby faces at the top. Without that cheering, he can continue the slow development and TV style promos without the need to react to changing crowd reactions. A huge benefit to his character only possible without an audience.


    Bray Wyatt is not a starring character. He has not progressed without a live audience. He is in the same spot as last year, having had a couple of cool moments but also a couple of horrific ones.

    Roman Reigns has flourished without a crowd, allowing his character work to shine through in a way previously impossible.

  8. #8
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    This debate is now closed.

    Just remember if you win, don't break character by smiling.

    Judge away
    @Mr_Nobody @Badger @virms

  9. #9
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    mth and mikey. The debate that tore the mod forum and chocolate covered candies apart.

    Two fine gentlemen, who produced a fine, fine debate.

    You want the verdict? fine.


    Judge ProblematicRoss








    Judge Mr. Nobody






    Judge Virms of the 9 realms










  10. #10
    [[be gay]][[do crimes]] mth's Avatar
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    Cheers to Mikey for the win. Well deserved. I thought I had something decent going until my third post. Really struggled to try to counter his second post and wasn't thrilled with what I put together to finish my side of things. Figured it was a lock for him but am glad to see that folks were impressed with my efforts ('cuz I wasn't).

  11. #11
    Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Being too harsh on yourself, it was a good one. That Reigns quote play was pretty good on Mikey’s part.

    I said in my vote that this has been my favourite.

  12. #12
    Judge Virms - 9th Realm virms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProblematicRoss View Post
    Being too harsh on yourself, it was a good one. That Reigns quote play was pretty good on Mikey’s part.

    I said in my vote that this has been my favourite.
    Wait you are Badger? THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!

  13. #13
    Not Scum Mr_Nobody's Avatar
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    Agreed, this was a war between the two of you and I thoroughly enjoyed reading both of them.

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