Wilfred's Debate Round 2 Match 3: Mikey Jones vs Mth

[Mazer]

Topic:

Over the last year, we've seen a difference in WWE presentation that we hadn't anticipated: the lack of live audiences. Over the last 12 months, we've seen WWE present a product that was not impacted by a physical audience responses to storylines or performers. Certainly, in the television experience, this created less spontaneous reaction. Conversely, it granted more direct control of reaction and story to WWE writers and producers.


Your topic: Select a WWE wrestler (male or female) who has been most positively impacted by the lack of live audience. Demonstrate why the effect was more positive to your selection than to your opponent's choice.




RULES:

- You each have 24 hours to respond from the time a post goes up (please make BBF and myself aware of any potential delays). You may make up to 3 posts this round .A maximum word count of 400 words per post will be allowed.

- All posts must be staggered. You can't make your next post until the other debater has had their turn. As stated, replies should typically occur within 24 hours.


- No editing of posts allowed. Anything that is posted the first time is what will count so choose your words carefully.

-The first post for the second poster shall not directly rebut points made by the first poster in their initial post.

- Pictures, gifs and videos can be used in literally unlimited amounts to support your point. Information should be self-contained within your post. For example, you can't post a link to an article and expect people to go read it. Quote it in your post.

The order of posting will be determined by a coin toss. The coin toss has revealed that mth will be going first!


Judges for the Match:
Mr. Nobody
Badger
Virms

[mth]

There once was a man named Bray Wyatt
whose ideas he just couldn't keep quiet,
so he told Vince McMahon
who said, “Let's do what we can,
without crowds, it's the best time to try it.”

Since he couldn't let them in, it was a great time to LET HIM IN.



No WWE superstar has benefited more from the crowdless era than Bray Wyatt.
WWE has never been more theatrical than during the pandemic and he is by far their most theatrical character. This period has allowed almost unlimited creativity with his character and he has thrived because of it.
Cinematic matches became a PPV staple thanks to the success of two prominent ones at 2020's WrestleMania, one of which was the incredibly experimental FireFly Funhouse Match.
Outside of this era, you can be certain this match would have never taken place but instead, thanks to the first crowd-free Mania, Wyatt was able to bring Cena into his unique world in a “match” unlike any other that allowed for a surreal journey that traversed through various locations and parts of both Cena and Wyatt's careers and even dipped into alternate realities.
Another later cinematic match with Strowman allowed Wyatt to shift between personas and delve into their past in a way no in-ring match ever could.
But Wyatt's advantages were not limited only to cinematic matches but now in-ring promos and encounters could utilize special effects and editing that could not have been done in front of an audience...
Instant transformations.
A Playground materializing and disappearing in an instant.
Light fixtures falling from the sky.
A ThunderDome filled with Alexa Bliss's laughing visage.
Flames. So many flames. Everywhere.
Oh yeah, and A MAN BEING BURNED ALIVE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RING.
Love it or hate it, it doesn't matter, the fact of the matter is this:
Wyatt's pandemic era has allowed for a virtually unrestrained creative freedom that has allowed him to be and do whatever he wants in ways he never could if everything were normal.
It has been “a new normal” for everyone.
It has been anything but normal for all of us, and for WWE, and for Bray Wyatt...
...but Wyatt is anything but normal, easily the least normal superstar in WWE, and easily the one who has embraced and made the most of the most abnormal period in WWE history.

[Mikey_Jones]

2015. Roman Reigns wins the Royal Rumble, with the help of THE ROCK, to mass boos

2016. Roman Reigns wins the title at WrestleMania 32 to mass boos.

2016. WWE edit out anti-Roman Reigns signs from the audience

2017. A fan’s negative reaction to Roman Reigns losing is edited by WWE.

2018, MITB. Roman Reigns vs Jinder Madal. Within two minutes, chants of "CM Punk" and "Boring" are heard. The crowd play with a beach ball and perform a Mexican Wave


You get the point. Roman Reigns has not been a popular person with the live audiences in WWE. Ever since The Shield broke up, WWE have tried again and again to push Roman Reigns as the top guy and the crowd have continually rebelled. Hell, there’s even a whole Wikipedia article about how unpopular Roman Reigns has been with the crowd. It just hasn’t worked for Roman as the fans continually rejected him.

But let’s take a look at Roman’s last year. After missing some time due to being immunocompromised, he returned in August and aligned himself with Paul Heyman. As the “Tribal Chief”, Roman has been on a rampage as a dominant heel. Most notable, however, is just how well it’s gone. No “boring” chants during matches. No mass boos from the audience. Just the Tribal Chief taking part in excellent feuds. Speaking of feuds, let’s examine one in more detail.




Listen closely. You can hear in painstaking detail the raw emotion of each wrestler. The referee pleading with Jey to quit, but Roman denying him. “All you had to do was acknowledge me”. Jimmy running in and the pure emotion of the moment hits Roman as he collapses and apologies for what he’s done to his family. Pure heartbreak.

Until he snaps and chokes the life out of Jimmy, causing Jey to quit just to save his family.




An incredible moment. One which would NEVER have happened with an audience. The words would be lost to the boring "WHAT" chants. The emotion would be drowned out. We wouldn’t be able to take in the heartfelt words. But these words made us aware of how far the Tribal Chief would go and added so much to his character.

With an audience, we've seen how the crowd pushes back against Roman time and time again. But without the crowd, Roman has blossomed into the best wrestler in the WWE.

[mth]

Did you pick someone who flourished during the crowdless era? Absolutely.
But did you pick someone who flourished because of it? No.
You picked someone who underwent a drastic, long overdue character change.
Roman Reigns is one of the best things in WWE not because there's no crowd in the stands but because he finally became what most people have thought he could/should become for years and is proving that “if he'd just turn heel, he'd be awesome” was right all along.
You point out how rejected by the fans overpushed, Cena-esque, babyface Roman has been but then, for some reason, you also assume that he'd still be getting that same response even after having a complete 180 character change?
You talk about match subtleties being drowned out by an uninterested crowd despite the fact that he has become one of the most interesting characters in the company. The crowd being there wouldn't be the only difference, Roman is a completely different character in this scenario.
Would Roman's recent run be affected by a crowd being present? Sure.
But would it be hindered? No.
No, Roman could still take time off to be with his family as his wife had a second set of twins in 2020.
He could still return, align with Heyman, and turn heel.
He could still become the Head of The Table.
The only difference?
All that vitriol he used to get from the crowd? Now he'd be getting it for a reason: because he's an talented performer with a fantastic heel persona.
So maybe some of the more nuanced in-ring things would have to be tweaked but maybe they wouldn't. The camera would still pick up on dialogue, emotion, and facial expressions. The home audience would still see and hear it. The commentary team would still address it.
At worst, maybe Roman would have to make some minor changes to how his Tribal Chief run was accomplished but only to accommodate for the nuclear heat he'd be getting (heat that is now desired) but I fail to see that being a significant detriment to what he's done.
Meanwhile, Wyatt literally could not do the vast majority of things he's done over this time.
His current incarnation legitimately would not exist.
Roman's would and honestly, would probably be doing even better with a crowd that latches on and loves to hate an amazing heel.

[Mikey_Jones]

Roman Reigns is one of the best things in WWE not because there's no crowd in the stands but because he finally became what most people have thought he could/should become for years and is proving that “if he'd just turn heel, he'd be awesome” was right all along.

You talk about match subtleties being drowned out by an uninterested crowd despite the fact that he has become one of the most interesting characters in the company. The crowd being there wouldn't be the only difference, Roman is a completely different character in this scenario.

Would Roman's recent run be affected by a crowd being present? Sure.

But would it be hindered? No.

I disagree and, more importantly, Reigns himself disagrees in this article. As Reigns himself states:

Being in this time, in these pandemic times, you gotta be able to pull out different layers to your performance, different attributes and show different tools. And that’s what I’ve done over the past six months is show a different side of me as a performer. Completely change the dynamics to my matches and the way people perceive my storytelling in-ring.

Added so much more dialogue; to now everybody cuts a promo while they’re wrestling … and they can’t! Because I’m the one that’s doing it at the top level.

The very fact the audience isn’t there has meant that Roman’s character and story-telling has flourished. It’s allowed him to develop his persona - as I pointed out, the crowd has continuously drowned out anything involving Reigns and it’s logical to assume the same, regardless of alignment. These promos and matches have been presented in a way more akin to a TV drama than a wrestling show. It is impossible that this character would have developed without these nuances.

However, the same cannot be said for Wyatt. There is no doubt the matches and effects have been cool, but has Bray Wyatt been positively impacted by these events?

That cinematic match with Strowman? Literally the worst match of the year. It was garbage and I don’t see how it positively impacted The Fiend at all. Just have a look at this scathing review. To pick just one quote, “This segment was so far out of touch with the pulse of the audience that it reminded me of 1998-2000 WCW when they were running off viewers at a record pace”. It’s such a negative point I don’t see why you would bring this up as a positive impact. It’s like saying that Rey Mysterio getting lobbed off a skyscraper helped his career?

Instant transformations.
A Playground materializing and disappearing in an instant.
Light fixtures falling from the sky.
A ThunderDome filled with Alexa Bliss's laughing visage.
Flames. So many flames. Everywhere.
Oh yeah, and A MAN BEING BURNED ALIVE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RING.

The man burned alive WAS The Fiend. Being burned alive does not positively impact your character. I'm not sure being set on fire and going missing for months is a massive career help. What has Bray Wyatt actually done with these cool, cinematic moments? Even if it did help him this year, these cinematic moments aren’t new or unique:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F7GAlQjNw8




They have happened before with Bray, and where has it led him? The effects are cool, but Bray Wyatt the wrestler was not positively impacted.

[mth]

Roman is saying the pandemic forced him to rethink his approach to the craft, much like it did everyone else, the only difference being that Roman sought to do it better and did exactly that. Your article shows that Roman is intelligent, adaptable, and driven to succeed.
That would remain the same with a crowd.
As would the time off, the alliance with Heyman, and embracing his role as Head of the Table and Tribal Chief.
You can add a crowd (that always gives him the loudest reactions as per your article), and he's going to do exactly the same thing he's proven he can do: approach it with smarts and the desire to shine brighter than the rest.
And we know he can because he has.
So, while you see him failing because you give credit to the situation and not to the man, I'm going to give credit where it's due and acknowledge my Tribal Cheif.
So yes, he'd have to make adjustments, as I already admitted to, but the pandemic era has only proven what we all knew all along: Roman's always had it in him.
Adding a crowd doesn't diminish Roman's ability.
Watch him tonight.

Regarding the Strowman match, not every DaVinci was the Mona Lisa but if his creativity was limited, he may have never produced it. The freedom is the point. There will be hits (Firefly Funhouse Match) and there will be misses but it's the chance to take those wild swings that are the benefit. The only person who came out of that worse off was Strowman. He's goddamn cartoon train now. Wyatt was not only unfazed but immediately moved on to his fascinating partnership with Alexa Bliss (another benefit) and won the Universal Title.

Being burned alive does not positively impact your character.

Kane? Undertaker? You seem to disregard that this is storytelling. Drama, intrigue, and curiosity don't matter? What Bray has done with these moments is created a buzz and made for a unique must-see character and product.
Bray Wyatt the wrestler is not on Main Event. He is not floundering in the midcard.
He is a starring character who is evolving and thriving.
To say he hasn't benefited would be to completely disregard his current persona.
With a crowd: Bray would not be a crispy critter but Roman would still be an epic heel.

[Mikey_Jones]

Regarding the Strowman match, not every DaVinci was the Mona Lisa but if his creativity was limited, he may have never produced it. The freedom is the point. There will be hits (Firefly Funhouse Match) and there will be misses but it's the chance to take those wild swings that are the benefit. The only person who came out of that worse off was Strowman. He's goddamn cartoon train now. Wyatt was not only unfazed but immediately moved on to his fascinating partnership with Alexa Bliss (another benefit) and won the Universal Title.

Surely it doesn’t matter if the match was unique and had freedom - it was absolutely terrible and helped neither character. You admit that it was rubbish but try and claim it only affected Strowman? That’s hard to believe. Looking at the rest of Wyatt’s year, he did indeed capture the Universal Title which he lost exactly one week later, an utterly forgettable reign. He then disappeared for a few weeks before the Randy Orton feud, going back and forth before tonight's WrestleMania match. Upper midcard to main event status.


Which is exactly where he was last year in his program with John Cena. Sure, it led to a unique match but Bray Wyatt’s character has not progressed at all in the last 12 months. Stuck in the same spot on the card, facing Randy Orton at WrestleMania - which happened back in 2017 anyway. Remember the cinematic segment on Smackdown where Orton burnt down Wyatt's shack? What exactly has been the positive impact if he was able to have cinematic moments back in 2017 and hasn't progressed up the card?





Bray Wyatt is not a must-see character right now. His matches are underdelivering and his feuds repetitive. However, this is the complete opposite for Roman Reigns, as you’ve kindly agreed. But you haven’t really tried to counter the aspects of Reigns’ promos which made him unique. These different layers only existed because of the pandemic and lack of crowds. Watch the video between Jey Uso and Reigns again. That match, and feud is impossible with a crowd. It has only worked because of the lack of audience

Reigns' Tribal Chief gimmick has been so well received by fans that they would have been likely to cheer him, which always happens to the 'cool' heels in WWE because they are incapable of making strong baby faces at the top. Without that cheering, he can continue the slow development and TV style promos without the need to react to changing crowd reactions. A huge benefit to his character only possible without an audience.


Bray Wyatt is not a starring character. He has not progressed without a live audience. He is in the same spot as last year, having had a couple of cool moments but also a couple of horrific ones.

Roman Reigns has flourished without a crowd, allowing his character work to shine through in a way previously impossible.

[Mazer]

This debate is now closed.

Just remember if you win, don't break character by smiling.

Judge away
@Mr_Nobody @Badger @virms

[Mazer]

mth and mikey. The debate that tore the mod forum and chocolate covered candies apart.

Two fine gentlemen, who produced a fine, fine debate.

You want the verdict? fine.


Judge ProblematicRoss

May as well get this in before my monacre is changed lol.

This was without a doubt my favourite debate so far and really really close. I would post paragraphs more but I am going to try and keep it concise while getting my points across.

While mth does state that the Fiend/Wyatt is allowed to get away with more crazy shit with no crowd (which is true) and heel Reigns may be successful with a crowd, I think the question “Who was more positively impacted” comes into play here. Mikey played this very intelligently hammering home the point that Wyatt has not really moved up the card whereas Reigns has really honed his skills and ran with the ball. I did sorta appreciate mth’s “Well Kane and Undertaker were burned too” when Mikey pointed out Wyatt had been gone for months but ultimately while a great effort by mth, Mikey just had too much in his arsenal and backed up his evidence well with supporting articles.

Vote goes to Mikey_Jones Sorry mth x

Judge Mr. Nobody

Mikey_Jones vs. mth

Damn. This was a good one. This might have been my favorite that I've judged so far. Both picked the first two people that personally came to mind when I read the question. Both gave great explanations as to why they chose who they did. I loved mth's rhyme at the beginning of his, at it set the mood nicely, while at the same time, him laying out all the theatrical nature of Bray and how it could never be done pre-Covid was very well done. For Mikey, I enjoyed the set-up of Roman's issues with the crowds and not getting over, before explaining why he flourished without them. I feel as if both did fairly equal with their introductions.

mth, in his first rebuttal, explained very well how Roman's improvement didn't have anything to do with the lack of crowds, but more change of character, while explaining that Bray cold not be the Fiend with the crowds. In Mikey's first rebuttal, I loved how he used Roman's own words to help further support his argument for Roman. His use of other sources to show how Bray's cinematic matches might not have been a good thing or help his character was very well done as well, but even without them, he explained it very well in his own words as well. Also showing that the cinematic elements that Bray does were happening before Covid as well.

On the second rebuttal, mth did a very good job of answering Mikey's defenses of Roman, showing that with or without the crowd, it probably wouldn't matter. mth also further clarified why Bray is still the better choice by showing, even with the flaws, it was about the storytelling and not necessarily quality. Mikey's final rebuttal once again did a good job of shooting down mth's defense of Bray being elevated without crowds, while at the same time once again showing that Roman is better off without the crowds.

This one was a close one and very enjoyable, but, by the narrowest of margins...

Winner: Mikey_Jones

Judge Virms of the 9 realms

Virm Logs Day 27 - Golden Baby Badger

Location - Earth Prime

Today I do something I never do. I'm going against my word. Even though I promised Mazer and Master Thief BBF I would not kill this Earth's Badger, I feel there is no better time. Between Mania, his friends game, his impending dose of the deadly covid vaccine, I know his death will be easy...and fun. As I teleport inside his house I hear the familiar jingle in my ear. My judgment is needed. Badger will have to wait.

Wilfred's Debate Round 2 Match 3: Mikey Jones vs Mth


I am no doubt believing that this debate could be one for the ages. Two of rajahs finest going at it over who benefited from not having a live crowd the most. Seeing the question and the fact mth is going first, it came as no shock to me that he picked Bray Wyatt and with good reason. Mth bullet pointed this down very concisely, making an opening argument that is going to be tough to overcome.

As much as it seems like a clear cut winner, Mikey picked one hell of a champion for himself in Roman Reigns. With a list of bullet points of his own, Mikey sets the stage for his champion who, in fact, has come into his own. The points he makes for Roman not having to deal with the live crowd and build his character presents an interesting observation, and a very solid case.

As we dive into the first rebuttals, mth came in very strong for me overall, breaking down how Roman would still be in the same spot regardless of a crowd. Mth has definitely hit on a weakness as Roman is definitely going to be booked at the top of the card without question. Mikey's rebuttal was an interesting one adding a couple of off site articles to show definite points that just because Bray didn't have an audience doesn't mean it was beneficial for him.

Doing a fine job countering Mikey, mth gives Roman his due by intelligently putting Roman over in how Reigns would make the adjustments needed. This is the Roman we knew had it in him all along was a solid line. Mth would also hit up a few other points with noting not every match will be a masterpiece and that Bray has definitely become a must see character.

As Mikey wraps up his final rebuttal I have to give mad props to the man for some hard hitting points that could probably been refuted fairly easily but they can't and oh boy, did they sting. However, his closing of Bray not moving anywhere over the past year is a homerun and leaves him standing in a very strong spot.

Overall, a fantastic debate and one that is very hard to decide. I honestly thought about sending this one in as a tie it was that close to me. With that said, I am picking mth as the winner. For me, he was in the lead most of this debate until Mikey's ending. Even with that, mth just slightly edges it out as Bray could not have done what he has done this past year with a crowd vs the fact Roman would be in the same spot regardless. Amazing job by these two men. Unreal.

Location - Earth Prime (Badgers House)

After a mental Rollercoaster ride it was now time to finish business. Badger sits watching maina. I see a fresh tear in his eye as he realizes his Mania prediction of the faces both walking out with the titles was as far fetched as a big dick Badger. Deciding to pay homage to Reservoir Dogs, my plan was to knock Badger out, tie him up and torture him to death when I noticed time had suddenly stopped around me. I turned around to see Mazer looking very disappointed that I had nearly broken my promise. Instead of banishing me he made an offer. Spare Badger of Earth Prime, for now, and I could have this baby. A golden child, supposedly destined to save the multiverse. Ironically, this baby was another Badger. The choice to spare its life or raise it to fulfill its destiny was mine, and mine alone. Perhaps feeling guilt almost over breaking my word, I took the Golden Baby Badger. I got the feeling that something ain't right.

Well boys, that one was pretty hot for a hootenanny. Mikey advances by a split decision. Mth, thank you for a fine debate performance. Your work in both rounds was superb, and balanced interesting choices with rock solid reasoning. Congrats to Mikey for ultimately prevailing and making the semis

[mth]

Cheers to Mikey for the win. Well deserved. I thought I had something decent going until my third post. Really struggled to try to counter his second post and wasn't thrilled with what I put together to finish my side of things. Figured it was a lock for him but am glad to see that folks were impressed with my efforts ('cuz I wasn't).

[Badger]

Being too harsh on yourself, it was a good one. That Reigns quote play was pretty good on Mikey’s part.

I said in my vote that this has been my favourite.

[virms]

Being too harsh on yourself, it was a good one. That Reigns quote play was pretty good on Mikey’s part.

I said in my vote that this has been my favourite.

Wait you are Badger? THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!

[Mr_Nobody]

Agreed, this was a war between the two of you and I thoroughly enjoyed reading both of them.