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Thread: The Winged Eagle Championship

  1. #1
    Intercontinental Champion Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    The Winged Eagle Championship



    One of the greatest periods in WWF/E history featured the Winged Eagle Championship. Some of the most celebrated wrestlers in history proudly wore this title into the heat of battle.

    In your opinion-

    Who was your favorite Winged Eagle Champion?
    Bret Hart.

    Who was the worst Champion to carry this title?
    Andre The Giant.

    What was your favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    Royal Rumble 1992.
    Shawn Michaels vs Diesel- IYH: Good Friends, Better Enemies if you want a one on one title match.

    Least favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    Diesel vs King Mabel- SummerSlam 1995.

    Who had the best storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Randy Savage vs. Hulk Hogan, leading up to Wrestlemania V.

    Who had the worst storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Bret Hart vs The Undertaker, leading up to Royal Rumble 1996.

    Who should have held the Winged Eagle but didn't?
    "Million Dollar Man" Ted Dibiase

    This was off the top of my head but would bet I over looked some stuff. What is your opinion on the Winged Eagle Championship and the absolute greats that carried that title?

  2. #2
    Champ is Gone
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    Andre was literally champion for less than 5 minutes. That's not fair. Has to be Diesel.

    Hogan vs Slaughter using an actual ongoing war is the worst storyline.

    Hogan vs Savage is the best storyline Vince has ever done.

    Mabel vs Diesel is really really bad

    Shawn vs Foley might be the best match for it

  3. #3
    Main Eventer Sasori's Avatar
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    Who was your favorite Winged Eagle Champion?
    Savage


    Who was the worst Champion to carry this title?
    Sid


    What was your favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    Flair vs Savage - 'Mania 8


    Least favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    Yokozuna vs Luger - 'Mania 10


    Who had the best storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Hogan vs Savage - 'Mania 5


    Who had the worst storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Maybe Lex Express if you can call that a storyline. Leading up to SummerSlam '93


    Who should have held the Winged Eagle but didn't?
    Mr. Perfect

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    Who was your favorite Winged Eagle Champion?
    Savage


    Who was the worst Champion to carry this title?
    Hogan


    What was your favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    Flair vs Savage - 'Mania 8


    Least favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    Yokozuna vs Luger - 'Mania 10


    Who had the best storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Montreal Screwjob. People debated it for YEARS, probably more than any other wrestling story.


    Who had the worst storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Hogan beating Yokozuna after he just won the title from Bret Hart, at Mania IX. Yokozuna (nor Fuji) should never have immediately challenged Hogan.


    Who should have held the Winged Eagle but didn't?
    Rowdy Roddy Piper or Mr. Perfect

  5. #5
    Intercontinental Champion Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    I said I'd forget something! Michaels vs Foley is a spectacular match. That Sweet Chin Music off a chair to Foley holding a chair into Foley's face was awesome! Shawn took the fight to Mankind all night.. Really helped him regain a edge he might have lost hanging out with Jose Lothario. Michaels looked tough as nails that night. Just wish there was a definite winner instead of the DQ finish.

    Yokozuna vs Luger at WMX is pretty bad. Too bad they couldn't get Perfect in the ring to face Lex. I remember they brought up how Perfect might still be mad about his WXIX loss to Luger and how a match between the two was teased but never delivered. Another nail in the coffin of Lex's WWF push.

    Totally agree Perfect should have had a run with the Winged Eagle. Piper however, probably not. By the time the Eagle was introduced Piper had retired. I think he should have had a run with the title before the Eagle.

    Another question. What design do you like most? I like the classic black but I know somebody who loved Warrior's baby blue design.

    Sid and Hogan being worst champions is surprising a bit. Sid was pretty dam over when he claimed his championship. Hogan is Hogan, although his 4th and 5th reigns were pretty lacking.

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    OBJECTION Psycho666Soldier's Avatar
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    I was always partial to how it looked with The Undertaker when he did the pose


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    Who was your favorite Winged Eagle Champion?
    Ric Flair

    Who was the worst Champion to carry this title?
    Bob Backlund

    What was your favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    Flair v Savage WM8
    Royal Rumble 1992.
    Bret v HBK WM12

    Least favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    Diesel vs King Mabel- SummerSlam 1995.
    Sid v Taker WM13

    Who had the best storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Flair/Hogan/Taker from SS91 to RR92

    Who had the worst storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Sid/Taker just so underwhelming

    Who should have held the Winged Eagle but didn't?
    Roddy Piper

    This was off the top of my head but would bet I over looked some stuff. What is your opinion on the Winged Eagle Championship and the absolute greats that carried that title?

  8. #8
    R.I.P Vader Brock Kasady's Avatar
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    They've yet to make a belt that looks anywhere near as good it never should've been replaced. That photo shoot with current guys holding it proves it still looks great. Changing the way the belt looks creates a disconnect with its heritage Vader should've held it

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    I really liked the belt they gave Austin in 98 as well. I think that and the winged belt were the best two.

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    Intercontinental Champion Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Yeah Undertaker does look dam cool in that picture.

    Too bad Vince didn't have Vader in the period after WMVIII. I feel like with Hogan gone Vader could have made a impact. Plus Vader vs Bret in 92 seems like a sure fire winner.

    Definitely a great title design but the men that carried this Championship surely help its legacy too. The picture posted at the top says it all. These men truly are the best of the best. Between the men that carried the Eagle and the design it all gets wrapped nicely together.

    How about Bob Backlund? I think he represents a lost opportunity. Guy was building steam and was pretty hot at the time he won it. I'm not suggesting Diesel not beat him for it but maybe give the guy more than three days.

    The fact that Hogan was the first to carry it and Austin was the last is also just the most perfect bookend to the Eagles storied history. The 2 biggest wrestling stars the WWF ever produced introduce and retire the greatest World title design is more than appropriate.

    Seriously though. Every man to touch this title has left his thumb print on the business. The Winged Eagle club is very select and doesn't have David Arquettes (WCW title), Jinder Mahals (WWE champion but a lame design, would have never even been able to sniff the Eagle, let alone call himself a champion in that era) or even a second World championship (Does the Universal championship even mean anything? No it doesn't) to suck the shine off the title. When you won the Eagle you were undoubtedly the very best in professional wrestling at the time.

  11. #11
    OBJECTION Psycho666Soldier's Avatar
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    Man, now I'm thinking how damn great that belt would have looked on Vader and I'm mad at history all over again.

  12. #12
    Top Hulkamaniac Bluegunn's Avatar
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    who was your favorite Winged Eagle Champion?
    Hulk Hogan
    Savage

    Who was the worst Champion to carry this title?
    Warrior
    Backlund

    What was your favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    Hogan vs Macho
    123 kid vs Bret

    Least favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    Yokohama vs Corey Student
    Yokozuna vs Dan Dubiel

    Who had the best storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Megapowers explode
    Bret vs Owen

    Who had the worst storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Sid/Taker
    Hogan vs Flair (cause it went nowhere)

    Who should have held the Winged Eagle but didn't?
    Owen
    Luger
    Last edited by Bluegunn; October 21st, 2020 at 2:36 AM.

  13. #13
    The 'me' in 'team' Stan Accy's Avatar
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    Who was your favorite Winged Eagle Champion?
    Bret Hart/Austin.

    Who was the worst Champion to carry this title?
    Backlund.

    What was your favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    Savage vs DiBiase, WM IV

    Least favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    Hogan vs Yokozuna WM IX.

    Who had the best storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Savage vs. Hogan, leading up to Wrestlemania V.

    Who had the worst storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Hogan/Slaughter going into WM VII.

    Who should have held the Winged Eagle but didn't?
    Vader

  14. #14
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Who was your favorite Winged Eagle Champion?
    Bret Hart/Austin.

    Who was the worst Champion to carry this title?
    Backlund.

    What was your favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    Savage vs Flair WM VIII

    Least favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    Bret/Yoko followed by Hogan vs Yokozuna WM IX right after (lumping it together).

    Who had the best storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Savage vs. Flair leading up to WM VIII

    Who had the worst storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Hogan/Slaughter going into WM VII.

    Who should have held the Winged Eagle but didn't?
    Vader

  15. #15
    3x beaters of LiVARpool
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    I thought the first Bret/Yoko match was pretty good. Definitely Yokos best match. The WM10 match was worse in my opinion.

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    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romford Pele View Post
    I thought the first Bret/Yoko match was pretty good. Definitely Yokos best match. The WM10 match was worse in my opinion.
    That part wasn’t bad to be fair up to the finish. I just lumped the whole thing as one because the stupid Hogan shit afterwards overshadowed it.

  17. #17
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Who was your favorite Winged Eagle Champion?
    Diesel/HBK (tie)


    Who was the worst Champion to carry this title?
    Bob Backlund


    What was your favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    HBK v. Diesel IYH Good Friends, Better Enemies


    Least favorite Winged Eagle Championship match?
    Luger v. Yoko Summerslam


    Who had the best storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Diesel v. Shawn Michaels


    Who had the worst storyline over the Winged Eagle?
    Diesel v. Mabel


    Who should have held the Winged Eagle but didn't?
    Mr. Perfect

  18. #18
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Actually Diesel/Mabel is up (or down there) with the worst. Break Undertaker’s face, get a title match.

    He’s had a mixed career, Men On a Mission were over in the day then the King Mabel shite. Viscera (ministry version) wasn’t quite as bad but really liked him as the “Love Machine”. I think Big Daddy V was the favourite for me though, he really was into something as a heel there. He was a solid worker for his size overall and it was a shame health caught up to him in the end. RIP

  19. #19
    World Champion Donald's Avatar
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    Can't really be 500 pounds and expect to live long.

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    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald View Post
    Can't really be 500 pounds and expect to live long.
    I definitely think if he’d dropped more weight he could have been something more. He still moved quite well before his health took a toll but could have been even better.

    He could be charismatic and do the comedy stuff as well as being monster.

  21. #21
    World Champion Donald's Avatar
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    Yoko's another guy I wish had lost weight, instead he just got bigger. It's tough I know, but I often think of poor Yoko. Miss him.

  22. #22
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald View Post
    Yoko's another guy I wish had lost weight, instead he just got bigger. It's tough I know, but I often think of poor Yoko. Miss him.
    It’s a mental as well as a physical thing to overcome for the obese and unfortunately not everyone can. Back then they didn’t have the best of health care either.

  23. #23
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Actually Diesel/Mabel is up (or down there) with the worst. Break Undertaker’s face, get a title match.

    He’s had a mixed career, Men On a Mission were over in the day then the King Mabel shite. Viscera (ministry version) wasn’t quite as bad but really liked him as the “Love Machine”. I think Big Daddy V was the favourite for me though, he really was into something as a heel there. He was a solid worker for his size overall and it was a shame health caught up to him in the end. RIP
    The fact he won KOTR was terrible and then they started building it up during the lumberjack match at IYH 2. Fucking terrible.

    I don't think MOM were ever "over". Did people cheer them out of habit for cheering good guys? Sure. But it was few and far between. I've never really been a fan. An example of someone who was simply around for being a giant. He was careless as fuck, couldn't talk, looked like shit and despite being dead I'm just glad he didn't fucking kill anyone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    It’s a mental as well as a physical thing to overcome for the obese and unfortunately not everyone can. Back then they didn’t have the best of health care either.
    For sure. Plus genetics. I don't see too many scrawny Samoans unless they're smoking crank.

  24. #24
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    The fact he won KOTR was terrible and then they started building it up during the lumberjack match at IYH 2. Fucking terrible.

    I don't think MOM were ever "over". Did people cheer them out of habit for cheering good guys? Sure. But it was few and far between. I've never really been a fan. An example of someone who was simply around for being a giant. He was careless as fuck, couldn't talk, looked like shit and despite being dead I'm just glad he didn't fucking kill anyone.

    - - - Updated - - -



    For sure. Plus genetics. I don't see too many scrawny Samoans unless they're smoking crank.
    If MOM stuck around in the tag division, could have been fine but completely the wrong guy to push as singles let alone give him a title feud when they were already up against it.

    Razor likely would have won KOTR if he wasn’t injured so it did hurt them but even then, not Mabel (also broke Taker’s face in the process) and I would’ve taken his replacement Savio Vega. Somebody like Jeff Jarrett would have still been a better option though.

  25. #25
    Intercontinental Champion Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    I think the best segment Viscera ever did was his date with Trish Stratus on Raw. I can't find the video but when they are ordering dinner and Big Vis points to the page of the menu and tells the server "That's me dog", I still remember laughing hard.

    I'm surprised by all the Backlund hate. They actually used Bob to the fullest up until he won the title. Even capped his story off from his first run by having him win the title he, in his eyes, never lost.

    Owen Hart is a interesting choice for never won but should have. Where would his reign be placed? Maybe he gets the 3 day reign Backlund got?

    I'm enjoying everyone's answers but if you'd care to elaborate on why you picked what you picked that wod be great! Love to hear everyone's opinions on this subject or just tell me why you think the Eagle doesn't deserve it's lofty position in history. Just post me something I can conversate about while I'm being bored at work.

  26. #26
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod1983 View Post
    I think the best segment Viscera ever did was his date with Trish Stratus on Raw. I can't find the video but when they are ordering dinner and Big Vis points to the page of the menu and tells the server "That's me dog", I still remember laughing hard.

    I'm surprised by all the Backlund hate. They actually used Bob to the fullest up until he won the title. Even capped his story off from his first run by having him win the title he, in his eyes, never lost.

    Owen Hart is a interesting choice for never won but should have. Where would his reign be placed? Maybe he gets the 3 day reign Backlund got?

    I'm enjoying everyone's answers but if you'd care to elaborate on why you picked what you picked that wod be great! Love to hear everyone's opinions on this subject or just tell me why you think the Eagle doesn't deserve it's lofty position in history. Just post me something I can conversate about while I'm being bored at work.
    Re Backlund.

    From my perspective, the one silver lining in that SS94 was Owen’s great performance hamming it up in front of Stu and Owen to throw the towel in, but Backlund was still a bad choice to be champion and especially when he was going to job to Diesel three days later in seconds. Also they were on the verge of going into the “New Generation” era so having Backlund as champ was still worthless albeit brief.

    If I was retroactively booking it, have Owen be in the match and win it injuring Bret but get too cocky and lose to Diesel in similar quick fashion. Build heat for the rematch with Diesel plus Bret’s revenge on Owen. Backlund was old and the wrong guy IMO.

  27. #27
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    If MOM stuck around in the tag division, could have been fine but completely the wrong guy to push as singles let alone give him a title feud when they were already up against it.

    Razor likely would have won KOTR if he wasn’t injured so it did hurt them but even then, not Mabel (also broke Taker’s face in the process) and I would’ve taken his replacement Savio Vega. Somebody like Jeff Jarrett would have still been a better option though.
    When you look at the brackets it's like, how the fuck did we not get Shawn or Taker? IMHO, it should've been Shawn Michaels. It was his year to win it. They had a good streak going, imagine if you had Bret, Owen, then Shawn in 1995. Incredible. But I get it. They needed to build up the guy as best as they could because 2 months prior he was a fucking idiot.

    Shit even Savio winning or Kama would have been better. It was shit a shit ppv top to bottom. Motherfuckers act like Diesel being World champion mattered during this era lol. Flip to WCW it's even fucking worse.

  28. #28
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    When you look at the brackets it's like, how the fuck did we not get Shawn or Taker? IMHO, it should've been Shawn Michaels. It was his year to win it. They had a good streak going, imagine if you had Bret, Owen, then Shawn in 1995. Incredible. But I get it. They needed to build up the guy as best as they could because 2 months prior he was a fucking idiot.

    Shit even Savio winning or Kama would have been better. It was shit a shit ppv top to bottom. Motherfuckers act like Diesel being World champion mattered during this era lol. Flip to WCW it's even fucking worse.
    Yeah they definitely had options. Two years prior you had Bret and Owen then two years after you had Austin and HHH after the curtain call (Shamrock in 98 wasn’t so bad and could have been more but we’ll just ignore Billy Gunn in 1999 after that).

    It was a shit sandwich.

  29. #29
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod1983 View Post
    I think the best segment Viscera ever did was his date with Trish Stratus on Raw. I can't find the video but when they are ordering dinner and Big Vis points to the page of the menu and tells the server "That's me dog", I still remember laughing hard.

    I'm surprised by all the Backlund hate. They actually used Bob to the fullest up until he won the title. Even capped his story off from his first run by having him win the title he, in his eyes, never lost.

    Owen Hart is a interesting choice for never won but should have. Where would his reign be placed? Maybe he gets the 3 day reign Backlund got?

    I'm enjoying everyone's answers but if you'd care to elaborate on why you picked what you picked that wod be great! Love to hear everyone's opinions on this subject or just tell me why you think the Eagle doesn't deserve it's lofty position in history. Just post me something I can conversate about while I'm being bored at work.
    I'll also speak on Backlund. It's 50/50 for me. Looking back I see why they did what they did. But like Badger said, maybe Owen should have been the transitional champion. He FINALLY beats his brother and they could have done a similar angle where Owen puts Bret in the Sharpshooter for 10 minutes and Helen throws in the towel, boom Owen's the champion.

    Owen then losing it in fucking 6 seconds would've been accepted during that time. The smart marks were like 2% of the audience back in 1994-1995. I think that move doesn't go over well a few years later or even today with someone who's work rate and talent overall were as respected as Owen's were.

    I just always felt like maybe they were moving too fast with Diesel BUTTTT I wouldn't change a fucking thing with him because we got some pretty awesome storylines going forward for several years involving him.

  30. #30
    R.I.P Vader Brock Kasady's Avatar
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    I would've replaced Bret getting that 1 day reign with Vader getting a 1 day reign at the least. Or let him hold it until the following PPV.

  31. #31
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Kasady View Post
    I would've replaced Bret getting that 1 day reign with Vader getting a 1 day reign at the least. Or let him hold it until the following PPV.
    Just checking if you’re referring to the time Bret won the title briefly at IYH then lost it to Sid on Raw thanks to Austin’s interference because I actually think that was booked quite well and helped build Bret/Austin at Mania 13.

    I think Vader’s time was Summerslam 96. They restarted the match twice which initially was good storytelling because Vader didn’t want to win that way but Shawn being Klique Shawn at the time had to win clean and did it via moonsault on a guy 200 plus pounds heavier than him. They could have done a dirty finish via a ref bump through Cornett interference or something then have Shawn regain it on Raw but he pulled the strings at the time because he felt Vader was “too stiff” despite his pedigree. Whole thing was a load of crap

  32. #32
    R.I.P Vader Brock Kasady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Just checking if you’re referring to the time Bret won the title briefly at IYH then lost it to Sid on Raw thanks to Austin’s interference because I actually think that was booked quite well and helped build Bret/Austin at Mania 13.

    I think Vader’s time was Summerslam 96. They restarted the match twice which initially was good storytelling because Vader didn’t want to win that way but Shawn being Klique Shawn at the time had to win clean and did it via moonsault on a guy 200 plus pounds heavier than him. They could have done a dirty finish via a ref bump through Cornett interference or something then have Shawn regain it on Raw but he pulled the strings at the time because he felt Vader was “too stiff” despite his pedigree. Whole thing was a load of crap
    I thought that it was really supposed to be Vader getting the title shot at Survivor Series and not Sid. Supposedly, Michaels put the kibosh on this plan as well, leading to Sid becoming the #1 contender and winning the title instead. The guy had personal problems, and it amazes me that Vince gave him much power then. If I were Vince, the first sign that I got that Michaels refused to put anyone over, I'd have taken the title off of him and not put it back on him unless his attitude changed. He was supposed to lose the IC title to Tatanka at WM9, Dean Douglas, Owen Hart, Bret Hart, Vader, and he tried it with Austin and countless others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Kasady View Post
    I thought that it was really supposed to be Vader getting the title shot at Survivor Series and not Sid. Supposedly, Michaels put the kibosh on this plan as well, leading to Sid becoming the #1 contender and winning the title instead. The guy had personal problems, and it amazes me that Vince gave him much power then. If I were Vince, the first sign that I got that Michaels refused to put anyone over, I'd have taken the title off of him and not put it back on him unless his attitude changed. He was supposed to lose the IC title to Tatanka at WM9, Dean Douglas, Owen Hart, Bret Hart, Vader, and he tried it with Austin and countless others.
    Oh no doubt I totally agree with you. Part of this may be reading Bret’s book and maybe there’s another side to it, but from what I know, I think because business was so bad at the time with Bret being away and Vince feeling like he didn’t have many other options so punished HHH for the curtain call as a scapegoat even though Shawn was more than involved that he just gave into Shawn.

    Maybe a bit tin foil hat there but it seems to fit.

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    Intercontinental Champion Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    They were in the New Generation when Backlund won the gold. That is another point that makes it better. Bob didn't want to let go of his glory days which makes him even more crazy and desperate to hold onto them. Diesel beating him in 8 seconds just adds to his New Generation leader moniker because he took the old generation out with one swift Jackknife Powerbomb.

    We should have got Undertaker vs Shawn Michaels at KOTR 95. I agree it was HBK's year to win it, guy was white hot coming back after being gone.

    I could see Owen getting Backlund's run. It would've been more accepted like ND said. Not like Christian for example. When he won the gold and dropped it to Orton right away, internet was pissed.

    Another person that could have won KOTR 95 was Razor Ramon. I think Badger already mentioned this. I've read that Razor was going to turn heel and face Undertaker at WMXI. Going from that to a KOTR wjn and then maybe facing Diesel at SummerSlsm 95 sounds a helluva lot better than what we got.

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    I would've had Owen beat Bret then lose to Diesel like a month later. Backlund added color to the drama back then, but booking him as champion in '94 was a head scratcher. I'm still baffled that the WWF chose a guy who was alien to much of the fanbase to be the guy to beat Bret when Owen was a heat magnet in '94. They had phased Randy Savage out of the picture, and Backlund was pre-Hogan. Would've been perfect to have Owen beat Bret at Survivor Series, drop to Diesel prior to the Rumble, and finish his feud with Bret at Mania 11. Bret vs. Owen was an engaging feud.

    I get they wanted Helen to throw the towel... but Owen should've been the guy winning, and Backlund convincing her or ranting... "How can you allow this to continue Mrs. Hart? Your son is the champion either way!" browbeating Helen into making Owen the champion just to save Bret. The feud with Bret would've continued as it did, but if the plan was always to give Diesel the belt then him beating Owen was a better option than Backlund.

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    I always thought that putting the title on Backlund was an attempt to grab the same media attention that George Foreman got for winning the Heavyweight Title in 94.

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    Intercontinental Champion Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Yes Vince definitely made that comparison with Foreman on commentary.

    Backlund convincing Helen to throw the towel in would have been pretty great. Maybe even slap the Chicken Wing on Stu.

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    I somewhat get the logic of him avenging his “loss” years earlier but having him tear through the roster, beat Bret in a 40 minute then lose to Diesel in seconds still felt like a waste to me just to get the title onto Diesel. He didn’t even get a chance at revenge as far as I could recall.

    If they had the Owen be the go-between to get the belt onto Diesel, I feel it may have been more effective and they could have got better mileage and business out of a time they really needed it but maybe that’s personal preference. I don’t recall much of a big deal over Backlund winning the title other than Vince’s Foreman comparison on commentary.

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    R.I.P Vader Brock Kasady's Avatar
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    It could've worked in a Submission match with Neidhart convincing Helen to throw the towel in. Bret and Owen feud up until Mania 11 and have their final match there. The ideas for booking Backlund were solid, but he often stumbled in the execution and was met with minimal reaction by the crowds. Backlund managing Owen to a title win would've made more sense. I've always wondered if Vince felt indebted to Backlund and reciprocated his past efforts with one more run. If Backlund didn't drop the championship in 1983, there wasn't going to be an expansion. Perhaps that was Vince's way of saying thanks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Kasady View Post
    It could've worked in a Submission match with Neidhart convincing Helen to throw the towel in. Bret and Owen feud up until Mania 11 and have their final match there. The ideas for booking Backlund were solid, but he often stumbled in the execution and was met with minimal reaction by the crowds. Backlund managing Owen to a title win would've made more sense. I've always wondered if Vince felt indebted to Backlund and reciprocated his past efforts with one more run. If Backlund didn't drop the championship in 1983, there wasn't going to be an expansion. Perhaps that was Vince's way of saying thanks?
    Fair points.

    Speaking of Backlund managing, that whole partnership with Darren Young later on made zero sense lol. They just went full on old man coot with him like when they mockingly had him run for President. Imagine if they did that now!

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    Bret Hart was the worst champion in history. If you look up "worst midget transitional champion" in the dictionary there is a photo of bret hart the coward.

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    Intercontinental Champion Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Ha. If you look up "clueless, talentless, bald asshole" you'd find a picture of that flash in the pan Billy boy Goldberg. The only thing he could do better than Bret was headbutt a locker and that's because Bret is smart enough not to give himself a concussion before he goes to the ring. Bret waits to be inside the ring then lets green amateurs kick him in the head.

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    No mention of Nash when he had the title? I think 1995 was really their worst year, financially. I know from my own experience that a lot of guys switched over to WCW once he got the title. But, Bret?

    His non-title stuff with Lawler drew better than most stuff from that era, as did some of the house shows against Owen and Yoko. His early 1996 title run also certainly rebounded numbers at the gate and also TV. PPV numbers also increased during that time period.

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    Lawler's beat down and feud with Bret was some great TV. I remember we got SummerSlam that year in 93 and I was pumped for Bret's revenge. Lawler trotted out Doink and Bret disposed of him. Lawler interference of course and that match kicks off and Bret proceeds to work pretty snug with Lawler. Just The end too with Lawler getting a DQ win, being stretcherd out but raising his finger in victory. Bobby Heenan's commentary through the whole thing is superb as well.

    Too bad the match at Survivor Series had to be changed to Shawn last second. Deflated the whole thing.

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    Top Hulkamaniac Bluegunn's Avatar
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    I think Vince was too busy salivating over LT at Mania to care about the title.

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    R.I.P Vader Brock Kasady's Avatar
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    I wonder why Lawler stopped feuding with Bret in 1994 and wasn't more of an integral part of the Bret/Owen feud as an instigator. He could easily have had the Backlund reign in 1994. The only thing he lacked was that unstoppable impression. Propping him up with 2-3 guys would've made him truly debatable. Especially if it was all to support keeping the title on him at any cost. There were many players around the fed at that time that weren't doing anything. I always thought having Owen side with him would be amazing and could've had a blow up a la Faarooq/Rock vying for power. I don't know. 1993-1995 was a stupid time for WWF when they barely got anything right, despite having all the moves and players available.

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    A kingly alliance between Lawler and Owen would have been great. Lawler had insane heat, crazy to think they used him mostly for comedy back then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Kasady View Post
    No mention of Nash when he had the title? I think 1995 was really their worst year, financially. I know from my own experience that a lot of guys switched over to WCW once he got the title. But, Bret?

    His non-title stuff with Lawler drew better than most stuff from that era, as did some of the house shows against Owen and Yoko. His early 1996 title run also certainly rebounded numbers at the gate and also TV. PPV numbers also increased during that time period.
    It wasn't like Bret Hart as champion in late 93 into 1994 was keeping the business afloat. It really wasn't about who was World champion or WCW would've had better numbers than WWF, which they didn't. Hulk Hogan as champion in 1994-1995 didn't do better than Bret and Diesel as champion during that same time. That's why people like Hogan said he would make more money in Japan during the early mid-90's.

    Like you said, FINANCIALLY 1995 was their worst year but definitely wasn't their worst year in terms of the product. Most of the talent you're thinking of left before he was champion in 1994. I'd be curious who you're talking about because guys like Hogan, Savage, Earthquake, Brutus Beefcake, Big Bossman, Jake the Snake, Rick Rude, they were all long gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    It wasn't like Bret Hart as champion in late 93 into 1994 was keeping the business afloat. It really wasn't about who was World champion or WCW would've had better numbers than WWF, which they didn't. Hulk Hogan as champion in 1994-1995 didn't do better than Bret and Diesel as champion during that same time. That's why people like Hogan said he would make more money in Japan during the early mid-90's.

    Like you said, FINANCIALLY 1995 was their worst year but definitely wasn't their worst year in terms of the product. Most of the talent you're thinking of left before he was champion in 1994. I'd be curious who you're talking about because guys like Hogan, Savage, Earthquake, Brutus Beefcake, Big Bossman, Jake the Snake, Rick Rude, they were all long gone.
    I don't know if the WWF would've survived 1993-1995 without Bret. Those were rough waters, and to me, Bret was the glue that held the WWF together. Him not being there those years is a scary thought.

    I wasn't talking about guys who left before Diesel was champion. I meant that a lot of fans and friends of mine switched over to WCW after he won the title.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Kasady View Post
    I don't know if the WWF would've survived 1993-1995 without Bret. Those were rough waters, and to me, Bret was the glue that held the WWF together. Him not being there those years is a scary thought.

    I wasn't talking about guys who left before Diesel was champion. I meant that a lot of fans and friends of mine switched over to WCW after he won the title.
    I was watching both WCW and WWF at the time and holy shit I can't imagine someone thinking they were going to get a better show from the WCW side during that time than the WWF. But who knows, maybe you were into the Dungeon of Doom and the Yeti over Diesel v. Bret Hart.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I was watching both WCW and WWF at the time and holy shit I can't imagine someone thinking they were going to get a better show from the WCW side during that time than the WWF. But who knows, maybe you were into the Dungeon of Doom and the Yeti over Diesel v. Bret Hart.........
    WWF was behind the times, in terms of what kids like, in 1995.

    They were still trying to sell everything in an '80s style, just a bit flashier; but unlike in 1984, this time they were way past the zeitgeist. Kurt Cobain was already buried before they even started pushing HBK as a babyface, Razor Ramon was based on a movie that was a dozen years old, 1-2-3 Kid's gimmick was apparently from Sesame Street, and the champion was a trucker. Trucker movies were popular back when Clint Eastwood was doing them in the 1970s, but this gimmick was way past its expiration date. I swear, if Bret hadn't beaten Diesel at Survivor Series, I wouldn't be watching wrestling today. WCW had its moments, but WWF was a trainwreck the whole year.
    Last edited by Brock Kasady; October 30th, 2020 at 2:14 PM.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Kasady View Post
    WWF was behind the times, in terms of what kids like, in 1995.

    They were still trying to sell everything in an '80s style, just a bit flashier; but unlike in 1984, this time they were way past the zeitgeist. Kurt Cobain was already buried before they even started pushing HBK as a babyface, Razor Ramon was based on a movie that was a dozen years old, 1-2-3 Kid's gimmick was apparently from Sesame Street, and the champion was a trucker. Trucker movies were popular back when Clint Eastwood was doing them in the 1970s, but this gimmick was way past its expiration date. I swear, if Bret hadn't beaten Diesel at Survivor Series, I wouldn't be watching wrestling today. WCW had its moments, but WWF was a trainwreck the whole year.
    And WCW had their finger on the pulse? I'm just trying to figure out what was so appealing about WCW during this time that made you ditch the WWF and not watch it.

    Yes, Razor Ramon was based on one of the most iconic gangster movies that inspires people to this day. Rappers, actors, etc. all still inspired by Scarface.....

    Diesel was a trucker? I'm very confused by how you view some of these gimmicks especially in comparison to WCW in 1994-1995. Again, I was watching both and neither show were doing anything wonderful. Imagine someone trying to knock Razor Ramon while trying to say the Dungeon of Doom was cool.....And that was just one aspect but it dominated the entire show thanks to Hogan, who apparently couldn't outdraw Diesel.......a truck driver. lol.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    I also love you saying the WWF in 1995 were stuck in the 80's....Did you pay any attention to the fact that WCW's roster was almost nothing but wrestlers that made their name in the 80's. Imaging knocking Shawn Michaels or Diesel or Razor or even the 123 Kid but thinking Kamala, Big Bubba Rogers, Blacktop Bully, Hacksaw Duggan, The Shark, The Zodiak, etc were somehow up to date......

    I guess that was your problem, once all the established 80's guys left for WCW you felt you needed to follow them. Again, show me who was a fresh face in the main event of WCW or even the midcard that were drawing you to them. Sgt Craig Pittman? 1995 Dean Malenko? Yeah I'm sure that's what it was.

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    A lot of stuff was questionable during this time in both WCW and WWF alike but the WWF is another story and for another thread.

    However shifting the focus to WCW, things started with promise, Hogan's jumping ship to enemy territory was a great move, all honesty, and there were good matches and moments with Flair and Hogan actually having the feud should've had in the WWF.

    Savage came to WCW and gave his career a much needed shot in the arm. Dungeon of Doom was a lot of fun until it became bloated. I like how WCW repackaged Haku and turned him into a beast for a while. The advent of Monday Nitro in late '95 was a highlight industry wide, easily the most exciting thing in either company. WCW was still top heavy, too much attention on the top of the card, too little on the undercard, but while WWF was more balanced they weren't good. An interesting dynamic ratingswise started where RAW would consistently lead narrowly in the early portions head to head vs. Nitro, but WCW would draw even often winning the ratings for the main event portions. WCW produced its first legit star (Giant) in several years. The talent in WCW was good during this time frame, and that's why I have a soft spot for it.

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    The turnover around 1995/96 is fascinating. Especially if Bret left when it was initially speculated. They basically traded, or were close to, all of their major stars besides Shawn and Undertaker, replaced them with Terra Ryzing, Johnny B Badd, Stunning Steve Austin, Cactus Jack, Dustin Rhodes and Rocky Johnson's son, and became a billion dollar company off the back of that gamble. It is amazing when you consider the young talent that WCW let go when they were pissing about with Hulk Hogan vs. Roddy Piper.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanny Batter View Post
    The turnover around 1995/96 is fascinating. Especially if Bret left when it was initially speculated. They basically traded, or were close to, all of their major stars besides Shawn and Undertaker, replaced them with Terra Ryzing, Johnny B Badd, Stunning Steve Austin, Cactus Jack, Dustin Rhodes and Rocky Johnson's son, and became a billion dollar company off the back of that gamble. It is amazing when you consider the young talent that WCW let go when they were pissing about with Hulk Hogan vs. Roddy Piper.
    I didn't think they lost any solid young talent during the Hogan/Piper stuff. We're talking late 1996 into 1997. Who did the WWF get during that time that were any good? All those names you mentioned that were former WCW guys were in WWF before Piper showed up, some were in the WWF working with Piper (Goldust v. Piper for example).

    I think ultimately we have to thank 2 people: Kevin Nash and Scott Hall. Had they stayed, pro wrestling would be a completely different animal. Would it be better? Who knows. WCW and WWF weren't exactly turning over a new leaf before those 2 jumped ship, it actually felt like both companies were getting worse and who knew all it would take is Scott Hall to make that jump followed by Nash to seriously change the game forever.

    Those 2 going to WCW put a ton of eyes on WCW, more than even Hogan could do when he jumped. It forced Vince to push people he didn't want to push (i.e. Steve Austin) and it made fans take more notice of what WCW had to offer beyond old dudes from the 80's. I wonder without the boom, where do people like Chris Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, etc. wind up in the future? I don't see any of them getting a fair shake like they did in the early 2000's by Vince.

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