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Thread: Top 5 Missed Opportunities: New Generation Era

  1. #1
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Top 5 Missed Opportunities: New Generation Era

    1. Doink the Clown
    -In a perfect world he sticks around, he's a heel, and maybe gets the IC strap. Could have morphed into his ECW persona where he was half Doink Half Matt Bourne, struggling with the character and his real self. I know he was a little before the New Gen era but came in right on the line and then they made Doink a goofy ass idiot.

    2. Bam Bam Bigelow
    -Something about Bigelow at the top as a heel World champ or at the very least a credible challenger for Bret, Diesel, Shawn, and Undertaker.

    3. Diesel
    -The guy was over, but I felt he should have turned heel during his reign. I'm splitting hairs, the guy was a badass that could have been an Austin-style character if they knew about Austin-style characters. This is why he worked so well in WCW, they were heels by traditional standards but even the top WCW babyfaces came across pretty fuckin whack.

    4. Tatanka
    -Borderline New Gen talent but I think he could have been neck and neck with Razor as a top IC contender, maybe take Razor's spot.

    5. Razor Ramon
    -Did all they could with him as a top tier midcarder. A heel to battle Shawn, Takert, and Diesel would have been cool or the guy to dethrone a heel Diesel in the summer of 1995.

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    The 'me' in 'team' Stan Accy's Avatar
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    ukraine
    Probably Lex Luger. Wiki says Vince thought he wouldn't draw, but I'm sure I heard he told someone about the planned finish to Summerslam 93 and was punished for breaking kayfabe

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    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Accy View Post
    Probably Lex Luger. Wiki says Vince thought he wouldn't draw, but I'm sure I heard he told someone about the planned finish to Summerslam 93 and was punished for breaking kayfabe
    Yeah that’s a popular net story that Luger bragged about in a bar. Luger says that is false and was nowhere near a bar.

  4. #4
    Born a loser Peter Griffin's Avatar
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    spain
    Bulldog

    Drew McIntyre becomes first brit to win World title, Should have happened 25 years previous

    Bam Bam

    Monster heel who could go, could have been a main eventer

    IRS

    Good worker who could have been IC material after split of Money Inc

    Steiners

    Had a couple of title reigns but left because unhappy, Should have built a better tag division around these guys

    Owen Hart

    After the Bret feud should have won title and been the man. Great worker and fucking obnoxious as fuck heel. Camp Cornette and tagging with Davey was fine, But they should have strapped a rocket to him.

  5. #5
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Owen beating Bret for the title instead of Backlund in 94. What a glorious heel title run that would have been.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Owen beating Bret for the title instead of Backlund in 94. What a glorious heel title run that would have been.
    And I know this sounds cold but at least if Diesel beat Owen a week later in 6 seconds Owen would have easily recovered and been an even bigger heel OR shit it could have made him a babyface...I don't think the WWF audience, myself included, were really in tune to that aspect of someone getting the shaft even if they're a heel so you cheer for them in disdain lol.

    I never liked Backlund winning the belt, storyline wise it did make sense BUT it was a mistake even if it made sense. Owen went backwards, he went from climbing the ranks to the top to tag-team feuds with Smoking Gunnz.

    WOOOOO

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    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    yugoslavia
    Has there ever been anyone worse on the stick than Davey Boy Smith? He liked to state the fucking obvious, that's for sure. Was watching a bit of him from early '97 yesterday and it was him and Owen against Furniss and LaFon from IYH Final Four. Davey is about to running powerslam LaFon for the win and Owen runs in and hits the guy with his slammy. And Davey's shouting to the ringside fans "He did it on purpose". Yeah, no shit, Sherlock. He did the same at the Rumble the month before when Owen turfed him out.

    And this was pre the micro-managed era. This was just Davey, coming across as being as thick as shit. It was painful most of the time.

    That said, with the popularity of the WWF back in the day over here and with him as well, he probably should have been World Champion.

  8. #8
    Born a loser Peter Griffin's Avatar
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    spain

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    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    yugoslavia


    I loved Davey, but Christ. I liken him to Mike Awesome a bit. Just embarrassing when called on to verbalise anything.

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    Love Davey too but his promos were awful.

    On topic:-

    Totally agree with Razor Ramon. I get the impression that Vince just couldn't commit to having a drug dealer character being his world champion which is why he never got that bump up.

    I thought Diesel turned heel before he left for WCW? Was he not champ when he turned heel?

    Bam Bam agree with too, where was that feud with Taker? Doink was an awesome heel.

    Owen Hart should have gone all the way to a world title reign. I think 123 Kid was underutilised as well.

    Can I throw Sid out there? Was supposed to be the heir to Hogan but loved softball too much.

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    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    Has there ever been anyone worse on the stick than Davey Boy Smith? He liked to state the fucking obvious, that's for sure. Was watching a bit of him from early '97 yesterday and it was him and Owen against Furniss and LaFon from IYH Final Four. Davey is about to running powerslam LaFon for the win and Owen runs in and hits the guy with his slammy. And Davey's shouting to the ringside fans "He did it on purpose". Yeah, no shit, Sherlock. He did the same at the Rumble the month before when Owen turfed him out.

    And this was pre the micro-managed era. This was just Davey, coming across as being as thick as shit. It was painful most of the time.

    That said, with the popularity of the WWF back in the day over here and with him as well, he probably should have been World Champion.
    One of the worst ever. Stands out even more because a lot of the Brits are pretty good on the mic.

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    Born a loser Peter Griffin's Avatar
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    spain
    I hate you all.

  13. #13
    GO ON LAD Fanny Batter's Avatar
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    The British Bulldog is going to win the Royal Rumble. Why? Because I'm BIZARRRRE. He was the best.

    There's a lot of reactionary decisions in that era that muds up the timeline. If Wembley was always the plan rather than last minute, I'm convinced they keep the belt on Flair and have him lose it to Davey Boy at Summerslam. That likely shuffles 'Mania too. Probably stays Hogan vs. Flair after all with the DQ and Warrior return. Undertaker probably stays heel and loses to Bulldog, as Savage has his blow off with Jake. If Flair doesn't rupture his ear I'm sure they hold off him dropping the belt until 'Mania. If that's the case, Yokozuna probably never really gets the monster push. That was a back up anyway for Warrior getting sacked. That whole period is a mess.

    After that, I'm not sure you alter too much. Yoko should never have been champion. If a heel has a long run going into 'Mania (ie Flair holding it for 15 of the last 16 months), then a long Bret reign would have been due. That opens up that King of the Ring to make somebody, and at that point it was probably Razor. He should have definitely been pushed further with his charisma, size and talent.

  14. #14
    Born a loser Peter Griffin's Avatar
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    spain
    I was so hyped when Davey won the rumble for ten seconds in 95 Fuck you HBK.

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    ain't got wings Brock Kasady's Avatar
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    Letting Savage walk away in 1994 is one of two decisions that baffle me from this time from Vince. Bret was anointed the top babyface in the company in 1992 and into 1994, but had zero credible heels to work with up until Yokozuna had established himself. Michaels and Razor weren't ready for the jump up, so he was desperate for opposition. After that, I would've definitely turned Macho Man heel, citing a lack of respect shown to him by the WWF and its new poster boy Bret Hart and had the two of them feud throughout 1993. This could easily have kept the WWF ticking over from WrestleMania 9 through to SummerSlam '93 and possibly even Survivor Series while the seeds of a Bret vs. Owen feud were being planted. Savage could've been an asset to Hart and then Diesel, Michaels, etc. from 1994 to 1997 had he been kept around, and in truth, around the time Austin was feuding with Bret, Macho Man was feuding with DDP, and the two angles had a similar theme to them, I imagine Austin vs. Savage at that point would've created some magic.

  16. #16
    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    yugoslavia
    Quote Originally Posted by Fanny Batter View Post
    The British Bulldog is going to win the Royal Rumble. Why? Because I'm BIZARRRRE. He was the best.
    Aha, this was the '97 Royal Rumble too, that I watched the other day. Just so random.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
    I was so hyped when Davey won the rumble for ten seconds in 95 Fuck you HBK.
    Yeah, I was too. Totally.

  17. #17
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Kasady View Post
    Letting Savage walk away in 1994 is one of two decisions that baffle me from this time from Vince. Bret was anointed the top babyface in the company in 1992 and into 1994, but had zero credible heels to work with up until Yokozuna had established himself. Michaels and Razor weren't ready for the jump up, so he was desperate for opposition. After that, I would've definitely turned Macho Man heel, citing a lack of respect shown to him by the WWF and its new poster boy Bret Hart and had the two of them feud throughout 1993. This could easily have kept the WWF ticking over from WrestleMania 9 through to SummerSlam '93 and possibly even Survivor Series while the seeds of a Bret vs. Owen feud were being planted. Savage could've been an asset to Hart and then Diesel, Michaels, etc. from 1994 to 1997 had he been kept around, and in truth, around the time Austin was feuding with Bret, Macho Man was feuding with DDP, and the two angles had a similar theme to them, I imagine Austin vs. Savage at that point would've created some magic.
    Co-sign this one. I know the Savage loss was one that Vince talked about really hurting at the time. For all the later stuff and theories, in 94 that one was shocking

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    Conflicting stories about Savage, depending on who you believe. Some say he didn't want to wrestle anymore whereas others say he wanted a program with HBK before retiring.

  19. #19
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    Lots of rumors, feelings, etc since then.

    But I do remember how Vince was right after it happened. I remember reading a Mike Mooneyham column in post and courier (I lived in SC at the time) where Vince talked about it as a flagship loss.

    How often did Vince do something like this?


    On November 7, 1994, Vince McMahon addressed “Raw” viewers with a candor rare for that time:

    “At this time, obviously conspicuous by his absence, is the “Macho Man” Randy Savage. And I’d like to announce, unfortunately, that Randy Savage has been unable to sign a contract with the World Wrestling Federation—not unable to, rather to come to terms with the World Wrestling Federation for a new contract. But Randy, I know you’re out there listening, and on behalf of all us here in the World Wrestling Federation, all of your fans, and certainly me, the number one fan, I’d like to say thank you for all of your positive contributions to the World Wrestling Federation. Thank you, Randy Savage, for all the wonderful memories for so many years here in the World Wrestling Federation. We wish you nothing but the best. God speed, and good luck.”

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    Shame for next 17 years Vince couldn't even have his name mentioned.

  21. #21
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romford Pele View Post
    Shame for next 17 years Vince couldn't even have his name mentioned.
    that's very true. And tough to know the exact cause. Multiple takes from multiple people. Sometimes different takes from the same people at different times.



    But still in 1994 it was very shocking, given everything that was said at that specific time. The feelings and coverage since then have distorted a little bit the vibe and surprise that existed in the month it happened.

  22. #22
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    If we put ourselves back in 1994 and not 2020, or even 2010 when you think about the part-timer explosion....Is it that difficult to think about Vince not wanting Savage, who was in his early 40's, not working? It's not like we saw Stone Cold feuding with Tito Santana for the World title in 1998.

    The opinion I have is that it was all mutual. Back in that day Vince was trying to make it about the future and if you really remember, the guys from Savage's era that were around during the early to mid 90's were not used in big spots 99% of the time. Bob Backlund was rare, outside of him who else? You didn't see King Kong Bundy in a World title program with Bret and Diesel.

    Then you factor in WCW where they would feature him in a top spot and he would be able to work but for less dates than he would if Vince gave him the greenlight. I know the Slim Jim sponsorship basically paid for Savage's WCW run (not sure the whole run but the first couple years). I also think Vince knew the value Savage had and if he were to leave what that name value would do for WCW and stop doing for Vince. They had a solid relationship and if you think about it, Savage was the last guy of that era to bounce on Vince before the next cycle (Diesel, Razor, Kid, Piper, Bret, and so on).

  23. #23
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    If we put ourselves back in 1994 and not 2020, or even 2010 when you think about the part-timer explosion....Is it that difficult to think about Vince not wanting Savage, who was in his early 40's, not working? It's not like we saw Stone Cold feuding with Tito Santana for the World title in 1998.

    The opinion I have is that it was all mutual. Back in that day Vince was trying to make it about the future and if you really remember, the guys from Savage's era that were around during the early to mid 90's were not used in big spots 99% of the time. Bob Backlund was rare, outside of him who else? You didn't see King Kong Bundy in a World title program with Bret and Diesel.

    Then you factor in WCW where they would feature him in a top spot and he would be able to work but for less dates than he would if Vince gave him the greenlight. I know the Slim Jim sponsorship basically paid for Savage's WCW run (not sure the whole run but the first couple years). I also think Vince knew the value Savage had and if he were to leave what that name value would do for WCW and stop doing for Vince. They had a solid relationship and if you think about it, Savage was the last guy of that era to bounce on Vince before the next cycle (Diesel, Razor, Kid, Piper, Bret, and so on).
    Even Savage said that he thought Vince wanted to go in a different/younger direction. So I'm in no way implying that it was forced upon someone. Many decisions come from multiple rationales and reasons. Certainly we could expect that the same is true here.

    We know that what Vince said publicly at that time was unique against how he spoke about most other departures in the mid 90s, and certainly atypical for it to become a piece of RAW. Randy was a big public face in the company. When baseball was about to go on strike, it wasn't the champs who WWE put on commercials about how they cared for their fans, etc. It was announcer Randy Savage offering to go play catch with a kid.


    Probably a lot of reasons, but it felt shocking to wrestling fans in 94.



    But to the original question, of something could have changed that exit (for whatever reason) ...it does seem like there would have been cool opportunities over the next 2-3 years for macho man.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    I do think that using Savage even at that stage was a missed opp no doubt. Even if it only took them into 1995. The biggest problem the New Generation had was that it didn't have any real passing of the torch moments. I don't mean that Bret should have subbed Hogan and Warrior in a 6 month timespan like he dreamed he was going to do lol. But just that rub of working with those legends. I think what realllly helped Razor and Undertaker early on was that they were able to work with the likes of Hogan, Flair, and Savage. Shawn didn't get that chance, Bret really didn't get that chance even though he beat Flair but there was zero storyline going into that match.

    Imagine Savage working with the top 5 up and comers: Bret, Taker, Shawn, Razor, and Diesel. I mean, look at WCW. They even had guys like Sting who were big names get elevated by working with Hogan and Savage.

  25. #25
    Main Eventer Horatio's Avatar
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    usa
    Davey Boy Smith should never have gotten into using growth-hormone. I think he totally would have gotten a mega-push had he not been a known user.
    I don't recall him ever needing a mic. His gimmick was fantastic.

    Luger should have gotten the title at SummerSlam and then dropped it to Borga, but who knows what sort of issues prevented that.

    Tatanka, as bread-winner of the Million Dollar Corporation, would have been a great champion. A bitter savage who could go would have been money.

    Marty Jannetty should have challenged for the world title. I could see him being over huge chasing the title on a heel or face. He was our McFly.

    I'll give Owen the nod. If Backlund could get a fluke run as champion, Owen should have had at least one run during his glorious heel run. The fans would have hated it, but it would be one of his bragging points, like the Slammys.

  26. #26
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I do think that using Savage even at that stage was a missed opp no doubt. Even if it only took them into 1995. The biggest problem the New Generation had was that it didn't have any real passing of the torch moments. I don't mean that Bret should have subbed Hogan and Warrior in a 6 month timespan like he dreamed he was going to do lol. But just that rub of working with those legends. I think what realllly helped Razor and Undertaker early on was that they were able to work with the likes of Hogan, Flair, and Savage. Shawn didn't get that chance, Bret really didn't get that chance even though he beat Flair but there was zero storyline going into that match.

    Imagine Savage working with the top 5 up and comers: Bret, Taker, Shawn, Razor, and Diesel. I mean, look at WCW. They even had guys like Sting who were big names get elevated by working with Hogan and Savage.
    I was mainly thinking of the feuds as guys were getting ready, but thinking about a real passing of the torch moment takes that to the next level. Now I'm retroactively pissed that we never saw that with this generation.


    Great point. Shoot Savage to the top of the missed list.

  27. #27
    ain't got wings Brock Kasady's Avatar
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    McMahon wanted to push the New Generation, and Savage represented the past. Savage had loads more to give and was still having high quality matches in WCW in 1997. He wanted to be in there wrestling...not being a desk jockey sitting next to Vince announcing every Monday night. He was willing to feud with the likes of Bret Hart, Jeff Jarrett, and other mainstays of the New Generation and give them the rub...but in Vince's eyes Savage's best days were behind him, and he wanted him to just retire, remaining as a color commentator. When WCW came calling he answered...knowing it'd strain his long relationship with Vince. It's really a shame that we got robbed of some feuds. This is what pisses me off. At the age Savage was when Vince started slowing him down he could wrestle circles around 99% of the wrestlers who are 40+ nowadays. Vince seemed to think Macho Man needed to retire...but it's kind of funny that he dusted off old toys such as Jake Roberts and The Ultimate Warrior who were around Savage's age and trotted them out into the spotlight in 1996.

  28. #28
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Kasady View Post
    McMahon wanted to push the New Generation, and Savage represented the past. Savage had loads more to give and was still having high quality matches in WCW in 1997. He wanted to be in there wrestling...not being a desk jockey sitting next to Vince announcing every Monday night. He was willing to feud with the likes of Bret Hart, Jeff Jarrett, and other mainstays of the New Generation and give them the rub...but in Vince's eyes Savage's best days were behind him, and he wanted him to just retire, remaining as a color commentator. When WCW came calling he answered...knowing it'd strain his long relationship with Vince. It's really a shame that we got robbed of some feuds. This is what pisses me off. At the age Savage was when Vince started slowing him down he could wrestle circles around 99% of the wrestlers who are 40+ nowadays. Vince seemed to think Macho Man needed to retire...but it's kind of funny that he dusted off old toys such as Jake Roberts and The Ultimate Warrior who were around Savage's age and trotted them out into the spotlight in 1996.
    Vince definitely started to have somewhat of a change of heart but I think he had no choice. I mean to be fair, BRET HART was older than Ultimate Warrior. Bret and Savage were actually only 5 years apart in age. But I think Vince started seeing with WCW that hey you know what, maybe these guys in that 38-45 age range still have something to offer at a top level.

    Before when NWA/WCW weren't doing that well on ppv and in the ratings with a lot of featured talent former 80's wrestlers I could see why Vince wasn't giving a shit. But I think he knew that losing Hogan, Warrior, and then Savage was a fucking blow. Andre's time was done by Mania 4-5 but still a draw just couldn't work that often. Had WCW only been able to get guys like Earthquake, Bossman, and Beefcake, yeah that wouldn't have bothered Vince. But those 3 guys I mentioned were without a shadow of a doubt the most popular, biggest draws in the company.

  29. #29
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    It's an interesting time period. When you consider that when WWE was coming up, Vince was establishing stars in new eras. Once he had built the machine, this was really his first experience with this type of "era" transition.

    And obviously it was rough.

    Its interesting to speculate on how it might have influenced future decision making.

  30. #30
    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horatio View Post
    Davey Boy Smith should never have gotten into using growth-hormone. I think he totally would have gotten a mega-push had he not been a known user.
    I don't recall him ever needing a mic. His gimmick was fantastic.
    What gimmick?

    I don't think being born in Britain is a gimmick as such. That's all he really did. I suppose he carried a dog with him for a bit.

  31. #31
    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Kasady View Post
    McMahon wanted to push the New Generation, and Savage represented the past. Savage had loads more to give and was still having high quality matches in WCW in 1997. He wanted to be in there wrestling...not being a desk jockey sitting next to Vince announcing every Monday night. He was willing to feud with the likes of Bret Hart, Jeff Jarrett, and other mainstays of the New Generation and give them the rub...but in Vince's eyes Savage's best days were behind him, and he wanted him to just retire, remaining as a color commentator. When WCW came calling he answered...knowing it'd strain his long relationship with Vince. It's really a shame that we got robbed of some feuds. This is what pisses me off. At the age Savage was when Vince started slowing him down he could wrestle circles around 99% of the wrestlers who are 40+ nowadays. Vince seemed to think Macho Man needed to retire...but it's kind of funny that he dusted off old toys such as Jake Roberts and The Ultimate Warrior who were around Savage's age and trotted them out into the spotlight in 1996.
    He also had Piper and Lawler headlining a PPV and put the belt on Bob Backlund during this time.

  32. #32
    Main Eventer Horatio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMH View Post
    What gimmick?

    I don't think being born in Britain is a gimmick as such. That's all he really did. I suppose he carried a dog with him for a bit.
    As a kid, I thought of him as a patriot of sorts, and the best Britain had to offer.

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    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horatio View Post
    As a kid, I thought of him as a patriot of sorts, and the best Britain had to offer.
    He was a Brit patriot. "Rule Britannia" was his theme as well.

  34. #34
    Main Eventer Horatio's Avatar
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    And that was totally cool to me. I was born in 87 so Dynamite Kid was like a myth or a legend. British Bulldog was my introduction to England.

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    too big to fail Tainted Eclipse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMH View Post
    What gimmick?

    I don't think being born in Britain is a gimmick as such. That's all he really did. I suppose he carried a dog with him for a bit.
    in america being british is absolutely a gimmick

  36. #36
    Real Sam Hill Sinner's Avatar
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    I never got to see Randy Savage vs Chris Candido - woulda been cool.

  37. #37
    ain't got wings Brock Kasady's Avatar
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    Wrestling in 1995 is about as bad as it gets.

  38. #38
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    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    Loved Waylon. Sadly, he was broken down by the time he got to play the character. Sad times.

  40. #40
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Kasady View Post
    Wrestling in 1995 is about as bad as it gets.
    The IC title scene was good but at least with Shawn/Jeff/Razor.

  41. #41
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tainted Eclipse View Post
    in america being british is absolutely a gimmick
    Also when they come over here:

    “Oh I went down to the pub, had some fish and chips! Manchester Uniiiiited!”

  42. #42
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    If Hacksaw Jim Duggan can be a gimmick than Davey Boy can be a gimmick.







    You think that Davey's gimmick is so much better than Hacksaw's?

    The answer should be yes.

  43. #43
    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazer View Post
    If Hacksaw Jim Duggan can be a gimmick than Davey Boy can be a gimmick.
    I wouldn't say Duggan was a gimmick either.

    He was just Hacksaw Jim Duggan. Liked his country, don't most people?

  44. #44
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMH View Post
    Liked his country, don't most people?
    Is this a trap?



    I feel safe answering that most people don't carry a flag with them at all times. Or a 2x4.

    I still see him as a bit of caricature/gimmick.

  45. #45
    Main Eventer Horatio's Avatar
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    Hacksaw was a jobber.

    Where was his Hacksaw?

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    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horatio View Post
    Hacksaw was a jobber.

    Where was his Hacksaw?
    Bruiser Brody gave him the Hacksaw name on a night out drinking just because it sounded cool.

  47. #47
    Main Eventer Horatio's Avatar
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    Ah, I wonder how much revenue Hacksaw Jim Duggan brought in. I had his action figure very young.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horatio View Post
    Hacksaw was a jobber.

    Where was his Hacksaw?
    Hacksaw was more of a jobber to the stars. His American Patriot character was easy to get the crowd behind him, but more effective as a way to get heat on a heel opponent who was beating the snot out of him after a cheap shot. He was an effective stepping stone to build a heel up.

    Sure, he won the first ever Royal Rumble, and he held the WCW US title and he was the last WCW TV title holder, but other than that, his next biggest accomplishment is being a 2-time Slammy award winner. What memorable feuds did he have?

    He came across as a likeable guy who was in the right spot at the right time, and he somehow parlayed it into a Hall of Fame career.

  49. #49
    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    Wasn't he a bigger deal in Mid-South Wrestling? Like JYD.

    Must get to watching that Blu-ray...

  50. #50
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    I don't think it's a negative to say Hacksaw's gimmick was being that ultra patriotic tough guy. He represented the working class but in looks and life. He was like if you found a bad ass bar fighter and put him in the ring. Kind of sloppy but more believable than most. In the 90's was he jobber to the stars? Sure. But at his peak, he was one of the stars. Damn near everyone but maybe 5 people were more over in comparison to 90% of the wrestlers that have come through in the last 2 decades, in any company. Fuckin Sam Houston in comparison was probably as over as Daniel Bryan lol. I kid, but you get it.

    Hacksaw was over, he beat ass, only lost to the elite because that's how high up on the card he was.

  51. #51
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Davey Boy had the better look, matches and there’s an argument for him that he could’ve had a title run.

    When it comes to personality and entertainment though.....HOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

  52. #52
    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    Davey, for me, only really had good matches with the Bret's and Owen's of this world.

    That said, I'm assuming he was better in the Stampede days, before he was 'roided to the eyeballs.

  53. #53
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Davey Boy had the better look, matches and there’s an argument for him that he could’ve had a title run.

    When it comes to personality and entertainment though.....HOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
    Eh, I think it's taste. I thought Hackaw had a believable look and style and I don't think anyone would've shit on him if he won the belt. It was a different time though, I don't even see Davey Boy as World champion. He was shredded, but the dude was like 5'9" and when they did put him in that main event, it was whack. He had World title programs with Shawn, Diesel, and Bret and the only one they gave a fuck about was Shawn and Davey Boy wasn't down with the angle so it came across dumb because The Smith's didn't want to play their role in the McMahon Soap Opera lol.

    Duggan wasn't roided up but he had a believable look, good matches for the time and promotion (kick, punch, signature, finisher=mega draw). Maybe take away some of the ultra big names like Warrior, Hogan, Savage, and Flair and you might have seen these 2 guys as World champions. They definitely would have if they showed up in 2005-present.

  54. #54
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    He had good matches with Shawn too. Until that bullshit ending I was loving the One Night Only match. Didn’t the outcome of that get changed at the last minute to protect Shawn? Could be wrong on that.

  55. #55
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    He had good matches with Shawn too. Until that bullshit ending I was loving the One Night Only match. Didn’t the outcome of that get changed at the last minute to protect Shawn? Could be wrong on that.
    I think 99% of the results are changed last minute. That's why I never believe people like Cody when he goes "I was supposed to win the 2010 and 2011 MITB" Were you? Or did they mention you were a possible winner? Shit changes.

    He did have good matches with Shawn but who didn't? Seriously, name 1 person who Shawn has ever had a bad match against, like an actual bad match not just one that looks bad because HBK's "worst" is most people's best lol.

  56. #56
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I think 99% of the results are changed last minute. That's why I never believe people like Cody when he goes "I was supposed to win the 2010 and 2011 MITB" Were you? Or did they mention you were a possible winner? Shit changes.

    He did have good matches with Shawn but who didn't? Seriously, name 1 person who Shawn has ever had a bad match against, like an actual bad match not just one that looks bad because HBK's "worst" is most people's best lol.
    Oh that was more in response to Murphy saying it was just Bret and Owens not you. Just being a bit nit-picky but generally agree that Davey’s great matches were a lot due to who he worked with.

    It is extremely difficult to find a bad match. Never denied his talent even if he could be a douche in the mid-90s. The Survivor Series “Knights” match wasn’t great but the upshot of that was the start of the Owen heel turn.

  57. #57
    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    I thought it was widely accepted that Shawn got the finish of the One Night Only match changed. It was bad in the sense that Davey had already dedicated the match to his dying sister.

    I was in the nosebleeds that night.

  58. #58
    GO ON LAD Fanny Batter's Avatar
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    One Night Only was only really a misfire due to circumstance. I'm fairly sure without all of the Montreal stuff and Shawn's injury they rematch in Manchester after 'Mania and he gets the win back, setting up a title challenge in the fall at another UK show. Things just didn't go to plan. The logistics of the European extension in the 90's were dependent on Davey Boy, and he probably gets a title run somewhere around 93 or 98 because of the commitment to the UK audience, but he either failed his steroids test or left with Bret soon after they got the ball rolling with plans. In an ideal world around then, you have Flair hold the title through 'Mania, Bret gets the Rumble win and takes the title without Hogan shenanigans, Bulldog wins the first King of the Ring (he's British after all!) and you do Hart vs. Bulldog 2 for the WWF title at Summerslam '93.

  59. #59
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    I thought it was widely accepted that Shawn got the finish of the One Night Only match changed. It was bad in the sense that Davey had already dedicated the match to his dying sister.

    I was in the nosebleeds that night.
    I have never seen so much rubbish thrown in the ring since Hogan joined the NWO.

  60. #60
    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    I have never seen so much rubbish thrown in the ring since Hogan joined the NWO.
    Indeed. It was crazy.

    I'm currently re-watching 1997 PPVs and with all the IYH events being under 2 hours, shouldn't take long. Looking forward to watching One Night Only again, as well as Canadian Stampede, SummerSlam, Revenge of Taker and pretty much everything! Maybe not IYH: DX.

  61. #61
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    I thought it was widely accepted that Shawn got the finish of the One Night Only match changed. It was bad in the sense that Davey had already dedicated the match to his dying sister.

    I was in the nosebleeds that night.
    Oh i'm sure it was widely accepted to put it on Shawn lol. But anyone with a fucking brain knows that Vince changes his mind and does weird shit not just before but DURING the event. WM 31, Seth Rollins had no idea until after he lost to Orton he'd be cashing in and winning the World title in the main event. That's the World title, so imagine even 25 years ago where the European title ranked.

    And to be honest, it was brilliant to have Shawn win it. Ultra heat. I guess I never understood the gripes from those who would go "Oh he shouldn't have lost in Montreal because he's Canadian" or "He should have won because he's from England!" It must be due to the fact that WWE is an American based company, and Americans lose left and right. We don't go "Oh that's bullshit he should have retained they were in his hometown!" That's some old ass territory shit that never got anyone really over outside the city limits of the bingo halls and secondary school gyms lol.

    It wasn't bad as you put it about Davey dedicating the match to his dying sister. The heat was tremendous. Shawn needed that win more than Davey Boy because Shawn was starting to get the dual props. He'd get heat, but DX was just starting and it was cool to see people being real during that era of WWF.

    People get so caught up in Shawn's behavior because he was loud. I see Bret's camp as being just as if not more fucked up because they were quiet about everything. So yeah, of course the narrative is Shawn had the result changed but even if he did so what? I just don't see them booking that match and it ending any other way than Shawn getting the title. In reality, probably should have just done a tag-team match with like DX v. Bret/Davey Boy and have DX get the win.

    It's too bad about Montreal, who knows what would have happened after with that title. Probably the same thing. Austin v. Shawn was already inked in for Mania 14 so I imagine Shawn would have vacated or had Trips pin him like he did (stupid but HEAT).

  62. #62
    GO ON LAD Fanny Batter's Avatar
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    Essentially it's only considered a bad call in retrospect. Bulldog didn't get his redemption, but he almost certainly would have at the next UK PPV if he was still around. The lack of pay off makes it seem like a bad call, but the opposite rings true because having Shawn lose to a guy like Bulldog then him bouncing with Bret 2 months later would have been a waste of a loss for Shawn, and might have diluted the eventual Austin win at 'Mania. The bastard just never got his comeuppance from Summerslam onwards, and that arc was vital for Austin overcoming him at the big show.

  63. #63
    ain't got wings Brock Kasady's Avatar
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    Anything other than Hogan dropping the title to Bret is incorrect.

    SNME would've been perfect for that.

  64. #64
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    With Hacksaw-the concept of Jobbers was different in the Pre-Raw era.

    If you watched Superstars, you basically knew who was going to win every match but one every week. And the main event you usually knew, but that's where they threw surprises. He never beat the top 2 or 3 guys, but even in things like build-up feuds for Yokozuna, they protected him enough to have him be the "first man to knock yokozuna off his feet" (which was a weird challenge match, and actually wasn't true-but whatever) He won a lot more than a real jobber. Beyond that, he came out on top in solid amount of mid card feuds.

    It was a different time, Duggan's win rate back then was probably higher than most top guys now.

  65. #65
    Main Eventer Sasori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    Has there ever been anyone worse on the stick than Davey Boy Smith? He liked to state the fucking obvious, that's for sure. Was watching a bit of him from early '97 yesterday and it was him and Owen against Furniss and LaFon from IYH Final Four. Davey is about to running powerslam LaFon for the win and Owen runs in and hits the guy with his slammy. And Davey's shouting to the ringside fans "He did it on purpose". Yeah, no shit, Sherlock. He did the same at the Rumble the month before when Owen turfed him out.

    And this was pre the micro-managed era. This was just Davey, coming across as being as thick as shit. It was painful most of the time.

    That said, with the popularity of the WWF back in the day over here and with him as well, he probably should have been World Champion.
    Davey Boy was his own worst enemy. His substance abuse got in the way so many times. Brett told a story about their match at SummerSlam. He tried to get together with Davey Boy to go over it, but Smith kept disappearing. Eventually, they met up to discuss the match, but when they got in the ring, Davey Boy had forgotten everything they'd gone over. Brett then had to call everything on the fly and guide him through the entire thing. Davey Boy was in the vein of Marty Jannetty. Incredibly talented, but liked to party way too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    He was a Brit patriot. "Rule Britannia" was his theme as well.
    He also rocked the braids with red, white, and blue beads. I'm accepting that as part of his gimmick.

  66. #66
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Nothing really too much wrong with the patriotic gimmicks though ironically the Patriot gimmick itself itself didn't work out. That was more to do with fast-forwarding Del Wilkes into the title picture he was not even close to being ready for plus his injuries. Felt bad for him at One Night Only having the shit booed out of him by the Brits.

    He gave us the Angle song though.

  67. #67
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    A lot of gimmicks in the late 80s were defined by someone's nationality/origin story. Hacksaw was one variation of that. As was Davey Boy.

    I mean it was like one step up from GLOW as far as lot of that was concerned.

  68. #68
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    I might have seemed harsh on him earlier but really I fucking loved Hacksaw.

    Davey Boy having the better gimmick though? Hacksaw had the charisma and personality. Mazer if @Hacksaw comes back and reads that post, be prepared my friend lol.

  69. #69
    OMG ELITIST Hacksaw's Avatar
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    HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I thought I felt my spidey senses tingling, I hadn't logged on in a couple months.

    Hacksaw Jim Duggan was one of the best booked wrestlers in WWF history - he spent years comfortably in the midcard, with enough time against big competitors to be seen as dangerous, and was usually used to elevate heels to take on that OTHER Patriotic Real American. How many times was he the opening match on Superstars? It seemed like every week. Like you said, that's a pretty stark contrast to The Patriot, who was fast-tracked. People loved Hacksaw but I'm not sure if they'd have bough him, say, challenging Hart and Flair and Savage in 1992. He never lost popularity despite being in a comedy gimmick. I also think people think less of his ring work because most of their memories of him were working with Andre when Andre was basically broken, and then Hacksaw's later-career stuff including WCW. Also Hacksaw's Mid-South ringwork is really good but I think I'm preaching to the choir on that one.

    Davey Boy was wonderful. They both were charismatic, but in different ways. Gimmick-wise, Hacksaw was a *little* deeper - he was very much in a Dusty Rhodes blue collar identifiable working man role, but with that more obviously patriotic tilt. In his first WWF singles run, Davey was... British and strong? They definitely fell back on "foreign guy is foreign" a lot but Davey's skills were evident anyway.

  70. #70
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    I might have seemed harsh on him earlier but really I fucking loved Hacksaw.

    Davey Boy having the better gimmick though? Hacksaw had the charisma and personality. Mazer if @Hacksaw comes back and reads that post, be prepared my friend lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hacksaw View Post
    HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I thought I felt my spidey senses tingling, I hadn't logged on in a couple months.

    Hacksaw Jim Duggan was one of the best booked wrestlers in WWF history - he spent years comfortably in the midcard, with enough time against big competitors to be seen as dangerous, and was usually used to elevate heels to take on that OTHER Patriotic Real American. How many times was he the opening match on Superstars? It seemed like every week. Like you said, that's a pretty stark contrast to The Patriot, who was fast-tracked. People loved Hacksaw but I'm not sure if they'd have bough him, say, challenging Hart and Flair and Savage in 1992. He never lost popularity despite being in a comedy gimmick. I also think people think less of his ring work because most of their memories of him were working with Andre when Andre was basically broken, and then Hacksaw's later-career stuff including WCW. Also Hacksaw's Mid-South ringwork is really good but I think I'm preaching to the choir on that one.

    Davey Boy was wonderful. They both were charismatic, but in different ways. Gimmick-wise, Hacksaw was a *little* deeper - he was very much in a Dusty Rhodes blue collar identifiable working man role, but with that more obviously patriotic tilt. In his first WWF singles run, Davey was... British and strong? They definitely fell back on "foreign guy is foreign" a lot but Davey's skills were evident anyway.
    I can now reveal that this entire conversation to re-engage Hacksaw with Rajah.


    I love it when a plan comes together.

  71. #71
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Main Eventer Horatio's Avatar
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    usa
    Does anyone remember Jobber to the stars? I miss that guy...

  73. #73
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horatio View Post
    Does anyone remember Jobber to the stars? I miss that guy...
    Indeed I do.

    Can't remember exactly when he last posted though, years and years back.

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    OMG ELITIST Hacksaw's Avatar
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    Top Hulkamaniac Bluegunn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
    Bulldog

    Drew McIntyre becomes first brit to win World title, Should have happened 25 years previous

    .
    Drew is Scottish, not British. Yet to be a British champ

    But anyway it's sad how guys did not get pushed due to real life:
    Bulldog
    Texas Tornado
    Jannetty
    Warrior

    Bulldog is probably one of the biggest what a ifs. If HBK botched the finish Bulldog would be forced into the spotlight. You either turn him early or turn Diesel.

    Vader was stuck in the HBK politics

    I think Flash Funk was a big missed opportunity. Should not be jibber to the stars.

    Also a shame Vince had to clue what he had when PCO was there.

    Finally Hakushi was fine until teamed with a jobber. His match in Japan against the Undertaker is something to see.
    Last edited by Bluegunn; June 8th, 2020 at 4:53 AM.

  76. #76
    Born a loser Peter Griffin's Avatar
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    spain
    What exactly do you think Britain is?

  77. #77
    Top Hulkamaniac Bluegunn's Avatar
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    Try talking to a Scot they won't let it go.
    But if you really go by the map Finlay would also be British.
    Last edited by Bluegunn; June 8th, 2020 at 4:50 AM.

  78. #78
    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegunn View Post
    Drew is Scottish, not British. Yet to be a British champ
    This isn't right. Scotland is a part of the UK (Britain basically). So there has been a British champion.

    There has not been an English champion, which is mad really when you think about it.

    And yes Fit Finlay is also from the UK as he is Northern Irish.

  79. #79
    The 'me' in 'team' Stan Accy's Avatar
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    ukraine

  80. #80
    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    Thankfully they just ignored wales as a big dragon in the middle would just look silly.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegunn View Post
    Try talking to a Scot they won't let it go.
    But if you really go by the map Finlay would also be British.
    It’s the media. When a Scot wins they’re British, when they fail they’re Scottish lol.

  82. #82
    Born a loser Peter Griffin's Avatar
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    spain
    OK Karen.

  83. #83
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    Knew that would wind you up.
    Last edited by Badger; June 8th, 2020 at 9:35 AM.

  84. #84
    Born a loser Peter Griffin's Avatar
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    spain
    I would edit that if I were you.

  85. #85
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    I also knew that was going to wind you up, just waited for you to see it before editing.

  86. #86
    Born a loser Peter Griffin's Avatar
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    spain
    Hilarious.

  87. #87
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    I don’t mind people here using my first name really (didn’t actually post his btw), gives them a nice personal touch. Full names are different.

    Also I write “Scottish” as my nationality in forms when given the option but if someone were to say to me “British” I wouldn’t get uptight and was taking the piss out of the uptight Scots that do. Saw you in here and had a feeling you’d jump in.

    Getting back on topic a bit, Roddy Piper and Ted Dibiase. Just one title victory over Hogan could’ve sufficed before Hogan gets it back as Roddy could’ve lorded it over him as well as saying Hogan never beat him clean before Hogan gets it back. Dibiase with a good title run (not counting that whole Mania 4 thing with Andre) would have been great too.

    Missed opportunities these days. Cesaro. He’s still a regular feature but he could be so much more than he is.

  88. #88
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    I don’t mind people here using my first name really (didn’t actually post his btw), gives them a nice personal touch. Full names are different.

    Also I write “Scottish” as my nationality in forms when given the option but if someone were to say to me “British” I wouldn’t get uptight and was taking the piss out of the uptight Scots that do. Saw you in here and had a feeling you’d jump in.

    Getting back on topic a bit, Roddy Piper and Ted Dibiase. Just one title victory over Hogan could’ve sufficed before Hogan gets it back as Roddy could’ve lorded it over him as well as saying Hogan never beat him clean before Hogan gets it back. Dibiase with a good title run (not counting that whole Mania 4 thing with Andre) would have been great too.

    Missed opportunities these days. Cesaro. He’s still a regular feature but he could be so much more than he is.
    Without bogging up this thread about current talent I will say this...No other promotion on Earth pushed Cesaro harder than the WWE did and I think he proved tag-team work is his bread and butter. Just like Billy Gunn. They tried, but tag-team stuff suited him better.

    Actually, nothing you said in that post is on topic lol. Piper and Million $ Man and Hogan talk is better for the 80's thread you should start up.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegunn View Post
    Drew is Scottish, not British.
    Well said. Although, as a big Rangers man I reckon he'd disagree.

  90. #90
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    Without bogging up this thread about current talent I will say this...No other promotion on Earth pushed Cesaro harder than the WWE did and I think he proved tag-team work is his bread and butter. Just like Billy Gunn. They tried, but tag-team stuff suited him better.

    Actually, nothing you said in that post is on topic lol. Piper and Million $ Man and Hogan talk is better for the 80's thread you should start up.
    Or better we just use this thread to talk about missed opportunities as a whole not just the New Generation.

  91. #91
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Or better we just use this thread to talk about missed opportunities as a whole not just the New Generation.
    Or not

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    Or not
    Does it really matter? New Generation’s pretty much been covered. So what if other eras get brought in. Discussion is discussion.

  93. #93
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Does it really matter? New Generation’s pretty much been covered. So what if other eras get brought in. Discussion is discussion.
    I just like threads that are specific and focused and not just a clusterfuck. It centralizes the discussion. If you think it's been covered cool, but you're hijacking my thread out of either laziness or pity for the mods if they feel there are too many "Top 5 Missed Opp" threads.

    It'd be like if I just started talking about Smackdown in the Raw thread. Not a big deal, it's WRESTLING. That's just me.

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I just like threads that are specific and focused and not just a clusterfuck. It centralizes the discussion. If you think it's been covered cool, but you're hijacking my thread out of either laziness or pity for the mods if they feel there are too many "Top 5 Missed Opp" threads.

    It'd be like if I just started talking about Smackdown in the Raw thread. Not a big deal, it's WRESTLING. That's just me.
    I didn’t hijack your thread, I took part in the earlier discussion. Things already got a little side-tracker with the British Scottish stuff. I was actually trying to get things back on topic a bit, sorry it wasn’t in the specified era you asked for. Hardly the crime of the century.



    Just don’t think it’s that big of a deal.

  95. #95
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    I didn’t hijack your thread, I took part in the earlier discussion. Things already got a little side-tracker with the British Scottish stuff. I was actually trying to get things back on topic a bit, sorry it wasn’t in the specified era you asked for. Hardly the crime of the century.



    Just don’t think it’s that big of a deal.
    It's not the end of the world and yeah a little sidetracking about who is British and who isn't, whatever. Not the crime of the century, save the drama for the Wednesday night theater club Badg I'm just saying....Me personally, the guy who started the thread, would prefer it be about the New Generation era. Someone might see it and go yeah I want to talk about that specific time frame so I'm not sifting through 100 posts about 12 different eras.

    Trust me I thought about a general thread but figured it was pointless since I didn't want to talk about every possible wrestler over the last 100 years.

  96. #96
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    I was just trying to add a bit to it, wasn’t trying to hijack and only went as far back as the 80s. I don’t see the harm or see there being much wrong in talking about missed opportunities elsewhere for a bit.

    Your thread though dude.

  97. #97
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    So guys, I was thinking about how Mildred Burke was originally presented, and......


    I'm sorry.



    I'll see myself out.

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