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Thread: Wilfred's Debate: Round 2 Tie 4-Romford Pele vs. Kdestiny

  1. #1
    The Fresh Maker Mazer's Avatar
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    Wilfred's Debate: Round 2 Tie 4-Romford Pele vs. Kdestiny

    Round 2 @Romford Pele vs. @kdestiny

    Round 2 continues. Who will rise? Who will fall? Who will win the coveted trophy? Who can make it through as the air gets thinner?

    And since Mikey withdrew last time....



    Fall 2019 was a big time period for WWE. RAW stayed in place, but Smackdown went to Fox. NXT went to USA. During this time period, who has done the most for their brand?

    Your Topic: Since October 2019 (when Smackdown went to Fox), which performer has been the most valuable for their brand? Looking at the rosters of NXT, Smackdown, and Raw-determine which individual has been the most important/valuable for their brand, and has helped that show raise or maintain its value in comparison to the other shows. Establish why your selection is superior to your opponent's choice.

    RULES:

    - You have 5 days/120 hours and 3 posts each in this debate. A maximum word count of 500 words per post will be allowed. Please do not go over this limit.

    - All posts must be done within the 120 hour time limit so any posts made after the time limit will not count even if there is in an uneven number of posts at the end.

    - All posts must be staggered. You can't make your next post until the other debater has had their turn.

    - If there is a no-show from anyone after 120 hours, then their opponent who does turn up will automatically advance.

    - No editing of posts allowed unless it is for something spelling, grammatical mistakes or accidentally going over your word count. However you must come and inform myself or Badger first where we will approve them.

    - Pictures, gifs and videos can be used in literally unlimited amounts to support your point. Information should be self-contained within your post. For example, you can't post a link to an article and expect people to go read it. Quote it in your post.

    - Quoting words from your articles does count towards your word count but quoting your opponent does not.

    The order of posting will be determined by a coin toss. The coin toss has revealed that Romford Pele will be going first!


    Let's get dangerous.

  2. #2
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    This is a very interesting question as first of all who have to define what ‘valuable’ is in this context. In October 2019, what were the state of each of the rosters?
    NXT, I would argue was and has been at a very high level for a long time. Smackdown was still the ‘B’ show, but had been punching above its weight, and I wouldn’t say much has changed either. No, it is Raw that was not in a good place in October 2019.

    So who is the man who has done the most? Kevin Owens. The guy that actually is over as a top babyface. Whilst Seth Rollins was sinking faster than a stone in his face run, Raw badly needed a top face. With Seth being switched to a heel, Raw needed someone to step in.

    Kevin Owens kick-started a new era on Raw after Survivor Series. He represented something new and fresh. Yes, we had the brief face run on Smackdown, but he was turned quickly heel to feud with Kofi earlier in 2019. Raw desperately needed something, and Owens was it. Whereas Rollins pandered to the fans, Owens didn’t . He was able to keep fighting AOP (and later Rollins) and get sympathy from the audience.

    This is the only decent angle on Raw right now. Kevin Owens has turned Raw from being garbage to watchable.

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    Turning back time Kdestiny's Avatar
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    This is my brutality.



    The correct answer to this question is Rhea Ripley.

    Rhea has been a top star since her return to NXT and since Smackdown moved to Fox there has not been a more crucial superstar for their brand. We are looking into the build up to War Games/Survivor Series where she would get a pinball victory over Fire and Desire with Tegan Nox, but also scoring a pinball over the Queen herself Charlotte Flair.

    That weekend, Rhea overcame a 4 vs. 2 disadvantage and pinned Shayna Baszler and she also scored the victory for team NXT in the women’s survivor series match. If that isn’t a vote of confidence in her ability to carry a brand then I don’t know what is.

    She would go onto defeat the seemingly unstoppable Shayna Baszler at the end of NXT on December 15 and was put onto the shoulders of her fellow roster members in celebration. They made this victory seem like the biggest in a long time for the brand and a Star is continuing to be formed here.

    That isn’t even the best part of what she has done. She was able to convince Rumble winner Charlotte Flair to challenge her to a match at Wrestlemania. So now we will be having the first NXT title defense on a Wrestlemania card, and she is doing it against someone who was in the main event of Wrestlemania last year.

    Add on her victory over Bianca Belair and you have someone who has has the rocket strapped to them as they say, and there isn’t a single thing stopping her. She continues to be at the top of a division that is stacked with talent. Not only that, but she continues to break boundaries between the brands and continues to cement the NXT women’s division as not only the best in the company, but some of the best in the world.

    She carries herself well as champion, and she does cut a hell of a promo. This video package really tells you all you need to know about her journey and really shows how the NXT fans really got behind her.



    Rhea has brought NXT to the point to where it was on equal footing with Raw and Smackdown, and maybe even better. She continues to do that now with her program with Charlotte. This is why she has been the most valuable to her brand since October, without question.

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    Ok, Rhea Ripley is a great wrestler but lets look at these points:-

    Rhea has been a top star since her return to NXT and since Smackdown moved to Fox there has not been a more crucial superstar for their brand. We are looking into the build up to War Games/Survivor Series where she would get a pinball victory over Fire and Desire with Tegan Nox, but also scoring a pinball over the Queen herself Charlotte Flair.




    All impressive achievements, no doubt but the questions was who added the most value to the brand. NXT was already the top ‘wrestling’ show in WWE. It has been hot for years, probably since 2014-15.

    So no change there. Where has she improved the NXT brand as a whole?
    What about the ratings? Since going up against AEW in October they have been beaten most weeks. So she hasn’t moved the ratings either.

    The first time that NXT beat AEW was when they stacked the show with talents from outside NXT. That tells me that the more established brands and stars are still the ones who move ratings. A large proportion of the audience doesn’t know who Rhea Ripley is.

    Add on her victory over Bianca Belair and you have someone who has has the rocket strapped to them as they say, and there isn’t a single thing stopping her. She continues to be at the top of a division that is stacked with talent. Not only that, but she continues to break boundaries between the brands and continues to cement the NXT women’s division as not only the best in the company, but some of the best in the world.

    If the NXT women’s division is so good, then why the need to involve Charlotte? The fact is that NXT has a niche hardcore following but simply isn’t as well know as Raw or Smackdown. That’s why no man or woman from NXT has ever won the Royal Rumble.

    She carries herself well as champion, and she does cut a hell of a promo. This video package really tells you all you need to know about her journey and really shows how the NXT fans really got behind her.
    Rhea has brought NXT to the point to where it was on equal footing with Raw and Smackdown, and maybe even better. She continues to do that now with her program with Charlotte. This is why she has been the most valuable to her brand since October, without question.


    They tried to present NXT as an equal show to Raw and Smackdown at Survivor Series, but it didn’t work. They hasn’t been a boost in the ratings. Rhea Ripley is a great wrestler, but she won’t be considered a ‘top’ womens star until she is on Raw or Smackdown. Charlotte, Becky, Sasha, Bayley and Asuka are all bigger stars than her at this moment in time.

    The situation is different on the mens roster on Raw. You have a part-time WWE Champion, and the top face had to be turned heel because he got stale. If Kevin Owens hadn’t been there to carry the slack as Raws top babyface, then I dread to think how bad Raw could have been. For that reason he has added more value than Rhea has.

  5. #5
    Turning back time Kdestiny's Avatar
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    So you say Rhea is on the best wrestling show. While KO brings a garbage show to watchable is all? How does that make him valuable.

    You also need to realize that despite only having recently started their tv deal as a legit third brand, NXT was always seen as a developmental brand.

    So you are telling me that someone who is part of a show that has been running for years that has been struggling with ratings is better than someone who is part of a brand that is new to tv.... and a brand that is matched up against another wrestling show mind you and has beaten some of those main roster stars?

    Case and point. This last Raw has its highest rating of the year which I'll give you. The third hour had the biggest drop off, do you know what match ended that show?

    Kevin Owens and the Viking Raiders vs. Buddy Murphy and AOP.

    Hour 1 - 2.671 million

    * Hour 2 - 2.559 million

    * Hour 3 - 2.082 million

    So if you want to argue ratings, I can.

    NXTs women's division doesn't need Charlotte. I think Charlotte needed it. She has been in a bit of limbo for a while now. She chose to face the women's champion with the most momentum. That isn't Becky and that isn't Bayley right now, its Rhea. I proved that earlier with her crossover to Raw/Smackdown pinning Charlotte and Sasha for example.

    So this "audience" who doesn't know Rhea is going to very soon because she's having a match with Charlotte at Wrestlemania. It isn't Adam Cole getting that match or Keith Lee despite the success they've had against Raw/Smackdown superstars, it's Rhea because they know they've got a star on their hands. They know it's time to let it shine at the biggest stage of them all. Add onto that the fact that we officially get heel Charlotte again, which is definitely the best version of herself to face Rhea who will in no way back down.

    So NXT beating Raw/Smackdown at Survivor Series means it didn't work? Sure...

    Kevin Owen's has been in this storyline for so long. As per my original argument it's beginning to get a bit boring for my taste. Sure, every show needs a babyface at the top, but none of what they do matters if they face the same combination of people every week. You put down her achievements as far as helping NXT, which she certainly has helped with a champion before her that was getting borderline stale, while defending someone who is on a show that you've merely called watchable despite him being in this same storyline for several months now.

    Maybe I'm missing something, but I am not sure how Rhea couldn't be the right answer here. She is more than a good wrestler as I showed in my original post, she can talk too. Shes taking her NXT title to Wrestlemania. That's really valuable for NXT.

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    So you say Rhea is on the best wrestling show. While KO brings a garbage show to watchable is all? How does that make him valuable.

    Because making the flagship show watchable is far more important than being great on an already great show. In short, NXT would be fine without Rhea, but Raw wouldn’t be without Owens.

    You also need to realize that despite only having recently started their tv deal as a legit third brand, NXT was always seen as a developmental brand.

    NXT has had a hardcore fanbase for probably the past 5 years. The die hard wrestling fans who appreciated good matches more than the ‘entertainment’ part of the WWE. The problem with that audience is that it is small. WWE knows that they will always tune in, but the ‘casuals’ is what they really want. NXT won’t get that because a) that isn’t their audience b) they are now against AEW who have the same audience and c) that demographic is far more likely to tune into Raw or Smackdown

    So you are telling me that someone who is part of a show that has been running for years that has been struggling with ratings is better than someone who is part of a brand that is new to tv.... and a brand that is matched up against another wrestling show mind you and has beaten some of those main roster stars?

    Yes. Because Raw is far more important to WWE and Vince McMahon than NXT is. NXT he been run at a loss for years – WWE can absorb that partly because of the great rights fees they receive for Raw and Smackdown. For that reason it is all the more important that they can keep the Raw audience. If ratings tank, sponsors go, then the rights fees go down. A slippery slope.

    Case and point. This last Raw has its highest rating of the year which I'll give you. The third hour had the biggest drop off, do you know what match ended that show?

    Kevin Owens and the Viking Raiders vs. Buddy Murphy and AOP.

    Hour 1 - 2.671 million

    * Hour 2 - 2.559 million

    * Hour 3 - 2.082 million

    So if you want to argue ratings, I can.

    But tell me, if Kevin Owens isn’t there then what would be instead? Drew is only warming up now. Rusev has been stuck in a horrible storyline. Rey is a part-timer.

    NXTs women's division doesn't need Charlotte. I think Charlotte needed it. She has been in a bit of limbo for a while now. She chose to face the women's champion with the most momentum. That isn't Becky and that isn't Bayley right now, its Rhea. I proved that earlier with her crossover to Raw/Smackdown pinning Charlotte and Sasha for example.

    If that is the case, why have they never done an NXT womens title match before at Wrestlemania? As you say, the division there is stacked, so it isn’t the lack of talent. No, it is because none of them are bona fide stars like Charlotte is. Charlotte is elevating NXT, the womans title, and Rhea Ripley by challenging for that title.


    So this "audience" who doesn't know Rhea is going to very soon because she's having a match with Charlotte at Wrestlemania. It isn't Adam Cole getting that match or Keith Lee despite the success they've had against Raw/Smackdown superstars, it's Rhea because they know they've got a star on their hands. They know it's time to let it shine at the biggest stage of them all. Add onto that the fact that we officially get heel Charlotte again, which is definitely the best version of herself to face Rhea who will in no way back down.

    I’m sure they will – because Charlotte is there.

    So NXT beating Raw/Smackdown at Survivor Series means it didn't work? Sure...

    Kevin Owen's has been in this storyline for so long. As per my original argument it's beginning to get a bit boring for my taste. Sure, every show needs a babyface at the top, but none of what they do matters if they face the same combination of people every week. You put down her achievements as far as helping NXT, which she certainly has helped with a champion before her that was getting borderline stale, while defending someone who is on a show that you've merely called watchable despite him being in this same storyline for several months now.

    So its Kevin Owens fault that the booking is poor is it? That’s the reason I said watchable. I wouldn’t suggest the storyline has been great, but at least makes it a bit interesting. He has taken something shit and made it decent. Some value right there

    Maybe I'm missing something, but I am not sure how Rhea couldn't be the right answer here. She is more than a good wrestler as I showed in my original post, she can talk too. Shes taking her NXT title to Wrestlemania. That's really valuable for NXT.

    She is taking the NXT title to Wrestlemania. But she is facing a top female competitor from Raw. If she was that big a star she wouldn’t need to.

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    Turning back time Kdestiny's Avatar
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    You choosing Kevin Owens is like choosing the best player on the Cleveland Browns. Sure, he’s done good, but overall the team hasn’t been great so is he really that valuable? They could definitely have used Ricochet in that role against Seth or Aleister if not Rey or Rusev.

    The reason there hasn’t been an NXT title match on Wrestlemania before is because there wasn’t enough value in the brand to have one.

    Rhea is the champion, and now she is on her way to a Wrestlemania match defending her championship. The reason why it wasn’t done before is they didn’t have the right build or right timing for it. The time is now for Rhea because of what she has done since the fall. She already has a victory over Charlotte, so why not put herself on the map by doing it at the greatest stage?

    You made my point about ratings not mattering by saying AEW has the same audience. So if that is the case, NXTs numbers would be higher if they didn’t have to compete with another show. Hell, they were higher when they didn’t have to compete against AEW for those same fans.

    NXT has run at a loss, but now it has its own TV deal. Vince is starting to step further from Wrestling with his revival of the XFL. Even then, Rhea fits into the mound of the most valuable performer. She is tall, blonde, talented, and has a different look from everyone else.

    Raw has always been seen as the A show, I admit that, but like I said earlier...someone making it somewhat watchable isn’t enough. Owens doing his same shtick week in and out isn’t enough to make him the most valuable to his brand. He hasn’t done ANYTHING to elevate Raw.

    Rhea has done many things that I have mentioned to help elevate NXT.

    Charlotte was in the main event last year with freakin’ Ronda Rousey... but there’s a reason that Rhea is in this spot and not Bianca or Candace... Rhea has that momentum against some of the top stars, and she has the it factor they have been looking for. She has put NXT on her back and is taking it to NXT. You continue to make that seem like it’s all Charlotte, but they wouldn’t have made this match if they weren’t confident in Rhea as well.

    Rhea is her own person, her own creation, and she has elevated NXT by defeating top stars from Raw and Smackdown on her way to making this incredible match up for Mania. She has gotten fans behind her on NXT and even on the main roster by being a bad ass who never backs down.

    Kevin Owens is literally trying to be Stone Cold.... you can’t be too valuable when you are trying to emulate someone from the past while Rhea Ripley is helping elevate herself and NXT for the future.

  8. #8
    Furry, Filthy and Fun Badger's Avatar
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    ROUND OVER!

    Voting commences now, here's how it works:

    - The winner of each tie will be chosen equally from 4 sources. 3 selected judges and a public vote.

    - The 3 selected judges who will PM their votes to Mazer and myself. The judges are @Jarrod1983, @Psycho666Soldier and @virmicious so please send us your votes. Each judge's vote will be worth one point each to the total overall score.

    - The 4th source is a public vote where readers can post in this thread who they felt had the better argument. The combined public vote will count as one point towards the overall score.

    - If there is a 2-2 score in the total score of a tie after all the judging and public voting, then special guest judge Mazer shall break the tie.

    - All votes must be backed up with solid reasoning. Anyone who just says stuff in their votes like "I voted for Mikey just because his argument was better or I agree with him" will be asked to elaborate on their vote further before it can be counted.

    Voting will be open for 120 hours, same length as the tie.

    VOTE NOW!

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    Dug this debate even if Rom's last post was a little hard to follow since he switched up how he was quoting KD lol.

    I would have liked quite a bit more reasoning as to why Kevin Owens out of everyone in the entire WWE across 3 brands was the MVP of Raw. I don't feel like we got much of WHY he was the choice and WHY he was more of an asset to Raw than Rhea is to NXT in terms of depth. Saying "He made an unwatchable angle watchable" is hard to argue for and against so that also hurt KD in his responses. This was basically a debate about NXT and Rhea Ripley and very little about what Kevin Owens actually has contributed to Raw in the last 4-5 months.

    20 minutes of going back and forth I'm going to side with KDESTINY

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    I dug this debate as well. I think Rom's opening point wasn't all that well developed, but his counter to KD's argument was much much stronger in his takedown of KD's choosing someone from a lesser show. KD made several really strong points and I strongly considered giving him the nod, because of the initial post being stronger. But as I reflected on both arguments, I think kdestiny missed an opportunity that was wide open. When Rom mentioned that

    This is the only decent angle on Raw right now.
    KD should have hammered him on this, and countered by bringing up other compelling storylines going on now, as even if we discount how impressive Drew's positioning is becoming, it's foolish to forget how compelling the Orton/Edge story is right now. So for that omission, and for the strength of Rom's rebuttals, I am going with Rom

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    Who is elevating their brand from where it currently is? The absolute KO punch (geddit) here was that Rhea is defending her championship against last year's main eventer Charlotte Flair. She has brought NXT up to something approaching parity with Raw and SD. Kevin Owens can't claim to have taken Raw anywhere and while yes he's been one of the better things on it, I can't look past kdestiny's argument there.

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    Unanimous Judges Vote so results incoming.

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    RESULTS

    PUBLIC VOTE - kdestiny takes this 2-1. 1 point to kdestiny.

    JUDGE JARROD1983



    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod1983
    Another tight match up and great read here people.

    From the outset here I thought kdestiny was controlling the bout and the flow of the debate. kdestiny illustrated awesome points about how Rhea is getting this Wrestlemania match and not Cole or Lee. How Rhea is being her own person and not a second hand version of Stone Cold.

    Pele tried to sell Owens as starting a new era on Raw after Survivor Series but I think that is stretching the truth a bit to be fair. His whole second post concerned Rhea more than trying to double down on how Kevin started this new era but I was left wanting more from Pele about Owens. The third post we went further from new eras to "That’s the reason I said watchable. I wouldn’t suggest the storyline has been great, but at least makes it a bit interesting. He has taken something shit and made it decent. Some value right there". Not the way to sell the Kevin Owens era on Raw.

    With that I vote for kdestiny to move on. His use of video and his points were too strong to be battled. Excellent job people!
    1 point to kdestiny.

    JUDGE PSYCHO666SOLDIER



    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho666Soldier
    I believe both choices were rather interesting. I had honestly not expected Kevin Owens, but considering the popularity of the main event angle of RAW the month or two, it was a strong option. It also happened to continue the theme of a previous debate, kind of subconsciously boosting the credibility of Romford's choice. Despite my initial doubts on Owens, his first post actually convinced me that Owens was definitely a strong positive for his brand. It seemed inevitable that someone would go with an NXT choice, and while I think there are at least 2 other people you could have went for, Destiny made one of the strongest choices with Rhea Ripley. kdestiny had a bit more recent history to play around with to support his argument, doling out the details on her successes surround Surivor Series and her NXT Championship victory. It was a powerful first post, and I think it definitely forced Romford onto the ropes before the rebuttal.


    Romford had made a strong starting point when bringing up NXT's ratings, and I think he made the right call in calling out kdestiny's hyperbole about NXT's equal footing with the main roster. As Romford said, it still feels like NXT is the level below. That said, he sold NXT short by saying they "tried" at Survivor Series, only for Destiny to counter it by reminding us that NXT and Rhea Ripley in particular dominated that night. Overall, I think Romford came up a bit short in his follow-up posts. I think his second post in particular would have benefited from an exploitation of the word limit, as he had little to say in support of his own choice, leaving Destiny the opportunity to rebut less content AND counter Romford's points against Ripley. There was a aissed opportunity to counter Destiny by noting the third hour drop-off is a consistent ratings issue, and less an indictment of those involved with the main event and more against the general state of the show. It doesn't help that I think his given counter to that argument was lacking. For what it's worth, I thought the argument about Charlotte being the one elvating NXT, not Rhea, was a natural angle to take, and a valid point. However, it's a double-edged sword. Because, yes, she is. But destiny's angle includes Charlotte as a piece of the puzzle that Rhea Ripley completed. I do think that some merit needs to be given to his argument that if Rhea was a true boon to her brand, she wouldn't need to defend at WrestleMania against a main roster star. That was actually a masterful stroke of genius that I don't think destiny ever found a way to counter.


    But destiny was precise in his counter-arguments. It felt like every point Romford brought up was turned around as a further positive for Ripley. From saying Charlotte needs NXT, to the ratings argument actually looking worse for Owens, to the "Why hasn't the NXT title been defended at Mania before now?" trap that RP set up against himself, if he countered it, his argument won out. The entire way, he continued to boost up his choice of Rhea, and I think he made a strong point that regardless of how much Charlotte is helping NXT, Rhea was the one they had faith to do this with. I think his point about choosing Rhea over the likes of Adam Cole or Keith Lee for this first-time ever declaration was an immense one. And while I spoke on his counters to RP's rebuttals, destiny was able to tear through Kevin Owens as well. The aforementioned ratings drop was crucial, and the idea that it didn't have to be Owens was another argument that RP opened up and destiny closed the deal on. The Cleveland Browns line sort of sums up his point, but I think ultimately destiny made Owens' contributions feel less impactful than what Rhea Ripley had to offer.


    A valiant effort by Romford here, but I see the victor as kdestiny
    1 point to kdestiny.

    JUDGE VIRMICIOUS



    Quote Originally Posted by virmicious
    While usually the great, admirable, amazing, outstanding, comma, Judge Virmshire likes to be more entertaining than the other two over rated judges (names escape me.) This time around we shall keep it short and quick. Much like Badger in bed with his plastic lady friend M. Tight Thatcherla.

    Great question given, great answers retorted but one man did stand a bit taller than the other. That man is none other than KDestiny. This judge feels in his heart of hearts and soul of souls KDest took the fastball and smacked that sumbitch out of the park. He countered everything the Rom threw and then some. From winning the ratings debate and talking why his pick was more instrumental Kdest definitely delivered why Rhea was more of a solid choice to the brand of NXT.
    Final point to kdestiny.

    @kdestiny continues his redemption march by romping this one 4-0. Unlucky @Romford Pele.

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