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Thread: Wilfred's Debate Round 2 Tie 2 - mth vs Nash Diesel

  1. #1
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Wilfred's Debate Round 2 Tie 2 - mth vs Nash Diesel

    @mth vs @Nash Diesel

    Well done for making it past a gruelling first round. We kick off Round 2 with the second of two questions that are based on:



    Topic - Your task is to choose a talent or group (tag teams and stables are allowed) that has been employed by the WWE in a wrestling or non-wrestling capacity that is in the WWE Hall of Fame that is least deserving of their place. You must also argue why your choice is less deserving than your opponent's.

    As this is Round 2, we are going to make this is a little more challenging and say that you are NOT allowed to choose celebrities from the celebrity wing. Anyone else in the Hall of Fame is fine.

    To help you out in researching your choice, I have included a wiki link below to the complete Hall of Fame along with the current inductees for the 2020 class:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWE_Hall_of_Fame

    RULES:

    - You have 5 days/120 hours and 3 posts each in this debate. A maximum word count of 500 words per post will be allowed. Please do not go over this limit.

    - All posts must be done within the 120 hour time limit so any posts made after the time limit will not count even if there is in an uneven number of posts at the end.

    - All posts must be staggered. You can't make your next post until the other debater has had their turn.

    - If there is a no-show from anyone after 120 hours, then their opponent who does turn up will automatically advance.

    - No editing of posts allowed unless it is for something spelling, grammatical mistakes or accidentally going over your word count. However you must come and inform myself or Mazer first where we will approve them.

    - Pictures, gifs and videos can be used in literally unlimited amounts to support your point. Information should be self-contained within your post. For example, you can't post a link to an article and expect people to go read it. Quote it in your post.

    - Quoting words from your articles does count towards your word count but quoting your opponent does not.

    The order of posting will be determined by a coin toss. The coin toss has revealed that mth will be going first!

    Bring on the Hall of Pain!

  2. #2
    god's perfect boy mth's Avatar
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    “A sure-fire Hall of Famer”
    “A Hall of Fame worthy career”
    When phrases like these are used to refer to a WWE superstar not yet in the Hall, they aren't used willy-nilly. They are reserved for those who have made significant achievements: multiple championships, memorable feuds, performing at the top of their division and the top of the card, a lasting impact that cements their status as a pillar of the wrestling business.
    There is a status that is implied when someone is a Hall of Famer.

    But there is one wrestler that brought the Hall's credibility into question upon his induction.
    A man who set the bar so low you might trip on it.
    A man whose name continues to be brought up every year when a dubious inductee is announced.
    A man who caused wrestling fans to begin to say, “Well, if he's in, anyone can get in.”
    You can search this very board and find repeated posts about how his induction is undeserved (it's just about the only thing a search for him results in and my opponent probably said it himself if I could wrangle the goddamn search to find it).
    A man who won ZERO championships while being with the company for about eight years.
    A man who never rose above the midcard.
    A man best remembered as a “jobber to the stars”.
    A man who has himself gone on record as saying the only reason he thinks he was inducted was as an apology from Vince McMahon.
    A man who never made another appearance with the company after being inducted.
    A man who's parrot deserved the induction just as much, if not more so, than he did.
    And that man is Koko B. Ware.

    I'm not going to discount Koko had pretty solid in ring ability. I'm not going to discount that he had charisma or that his colorful persona and bird sidekick weren't appropriate for the time period he performed during. I'm not going to say jobbers don't have their purpose to help build the bigger stars. I'm not here to bash Koko.
    But I will say that there were and are hundreds of Kokos passing though WWE.
    Plenty of “good enough” performers, hell, even underrated/underutilized performers which Koko very well might have been.
    But we're talking about Hall of Fame worthy wrestlers.
    And those should be rare.
    Those should be stands outs.
    Those should be pillars and icons.
    People who changed the game and shaped the industry with accomplishments and accolades not easily attained.
    Those should not be a dime a dozen (or a penny a hundred).
    And Koko B. Ware was exactly that.
    He was good.
    Almost everyone is good.
    But almost everyone shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame.
    But every year when inductions come around, you can count on rolled eyes and sighs at even the least deserving being OK because hey, Koko B. Ware is in.
    Might as well just throw the door open.

  3. #3
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Carlos Colon Sr


    Aside from a few matches 50+ years ago in the WWWF, a random Raw appearance in 2006 that nobody saw, and a forgotten entrant among a list of forgotten entrants in one of the worst Rumbles ever (1993), what did this man ever accomplish to warrant a spot in the WWE Hall of Fame?


    Putting your own championship on yourself 20+ times in a territory inside a territory? Threatening to stab Vince McMahon to death if he tried to expand into Puerto Rico in the 80’s before sabotaging the murder trial of Bruiser Brody, that right there is what makes his induction so mind boggling. Daniel Bryan wore furry boots ala Brody to protest the induction at Mania 30. The Vice episode “The Killing of Bruiser Brody” did this man absolutely NO FAVORS. Tony Atlas, Dutch Mantel, and others give firsthand accounts of the situation that paints Colon in the worst way.




    Sure, there are MANY talents both in the main and the legacy wing that never received a paycheck from Vince’s family, but how many of them have the dirty history of Colon?


    From using his sons as bargaining chips to (one day) get the WWC library to helping cover up the murder of the iconic Bruiser Brody, using his political stroke in Puerto Rico to help Invader 1 be cleared of chargers. Not to mention using his death as a means to make himself a bigger babyface than he already was booking himself as. To say his induction was disgusting is putting it mildly.


    On top of all of this, nothing memorable under the WWE banner, barely any footage for fans of the past, present, and future to see on the Network.


    What boxes does he check? Influence? Zero. Major championships? Zero. Memorable? For all the wrong reasons. If we can’t touch the celebrity wing with the winners like Donald Trump and Pete Rose, 2 scumbags that didn’t even help cover up a murder, then I see no reason to include Carlos Colon Sr. I would go as far to say that he should be removed if we’re going to remove people like Hulk Hogan for saying something behind closed doors, then we should remove someone who has ultimately made his name off the blood of one of the boys.

  4. #4
    god's perfect boy mth's Avatar
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    What did Carlos Colon, Sr. do to warrant a spot in the WWE Hall of Fame?

    It should be noted that the WWE Hall of Fame not only recognizes those who have had success within the company itself but also recognizes worldwide talent by inducting some of the biggest names from Japan, Mexico, etc.. People who have influenced and shaped the industry around the globe.
    And Carlos Colon, Sr. undeniably did that in Puerto Rico.
    Colon, along with Victor Jovica, filled a void in the Puerto Rican scene by starting a promotion that not only gave native wrestlers a chance to become stars but also brought in some of the world's top talent (Savage, Flair, Hansen, Brody, Abdullah the Butcher) to give the fans the chance to see stars they'd never have seen outside of their island otherwise. That promotion, World Wrestling Council, still exists to this day.
    Colon was essentially the father of Puerto Rican wrestling, putting it on the map, making it bloom, and keeping it alive.

    You can point to him being champion 26 times like it's a bad thing but unless you can also provide support to prove it was harmful, I'm just going to point to the fact that him being champion only tied into the success of the company, that maybe he was the best man for the job, that the fans embraced him as a star, and that he was willing to literally bleed on the regular to ensure its success (such as the legendary two-decade-spanning feud with Abdullah), and he continued to be a draw even into his sixties (his in-ring career spanned over forty years).

    If you want to say zero influence and zero major championships, you might as well say Purto Rico doesn't exist.
    And that's pretty disrespectful to essentially write-off an entire country's wrestling history that is so firmly entrenched in this man.
    If folks like El Santo, Mil Mascaras, Rikidozan, and Antonio Inoki deserve to be for their global contributions, Colon absolutely does, as well.
    While he may not have done much on camera in WWE, he did wrestle and appear for them (which is more than can be said for other inductees) and played a significant role behind the scenes maintaining a WWE-Purto Rico relationship that helped bring the company there on numerous occasions.

    People are petitioning for Chris Benoit to be not only be un-erased from WWE history but to also go into the Hall of Fame. An actual murderer. A child murderer. Benoit was not the founding father of wrestling for an entire country. And Colon was not an actual murderer even if he might have been involved in shady business. Half the Hall of Fame was involved in shady business. Wrestling has always been rife with shady business. Vince McMahon himself is balls deep in shady business.

    So yes, Colon may have done some bad things but he also almost single-handedly made Puerto Rican wrestling a thing.
    Meanwhile, Koko B. Ware did fuck all.

  5. #5
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Half of the Hall of Fame weren't involved in covering up a murder to ensure they could continue making money hand over first with the murderer. Completely watering down what happened to Brody and Colon's involvement as to say it's commonplace. Chris Benoit isn't either and despite all his in ring glory he still murdered his young son and wife in cold blood. What does that say about fans wanting to prop up murderers? Colon might as well have stuck Frank himself.

    And I'm in no way dismissing contributions, you made a great case for him to be inducted into the Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame. The WWE have definitely broadened who gets accepted to fill time. Or as a gesture to get a video library.



    Koko gets a bad wrap because a lot of fans don't understand how these things work. Some aren't in because the WWE legally cannot induct them or they're spreading out some of the larger names. But Koko was no 1 in a 1000. He's from an era where unlike in WWC he didn't have to book himself 26 times as champ to get over. Jake the Snake, another icon, zero titles in the WWF. Some talent didn't need the gold to become a legend. 30 years later Kok is still one of the most recognized wrestlers. Even appeared on Tosh.0. WWE fans know Koko and his contributions inspired many wrestlers past and present.

    What's even worse is Brody wasn't even properly inducted. Nope. He's in the fucking legacy wing while the man who put himself and business above humanity gets the red carpet treatment.

  6. #6
    god's perfect boy mth's Avatar
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    If one is going to set qualifications for the WWE Hall of Fame based on moral standards then one must have some sort of baseline to attempt to draw a line. The most logical person for that purpose is the man whose Hall it is, because this is the WWE Hall, and that means one thing: it is Vince McMahon's Hall, therefore, that moral measuring stick should be him.

    Vince McMahon, who is, in only a couple of days, running another of a series of shows as part of a multi-show, long-term, big money deal with Saudi Arabia.
    Some call that big money “blood money”.
    Why's that?

    One month before one of these shows, Crown Jewel 2018, Saudi agents murdered Jamal Khashoggi.
    Massive attention and pressure came from politicians and the media urging WWE to cancel the show and reconsider their business dealings the Saudi Arabia.
    Members of WWE's own roster refused to participate (and continue to refuse to work these shows).
    WWE essentially did little more than stop mentioning the country for a bit but moved forward regardless because it was strictly business.

    So wait, mth, you're telling us that Vince McMahon readily makes blood money by running a company that proceeded with its business dealings working with someone who committed murder?
    Hmm, that sounds familiar.
    But wait, there's more!
    Let's not forget Saudi Arabia's human rights issues, women's rights issues, LGBTQ rights issues, and the war in Yemen!
    I don't think Invader 1 had all that attached to him, too.

    ALSO! Jimmy Snuka might have murdered his girlfriend and Vince went ahead and continued to work with him, too.

    So that's twice Vince basically did exactly what Colon did. And Vince has plenty of other shady shit to his name beyond this.
    But if you're going to say there needs to be a moral line for his Hall, you have to draw that line with him.
    And Colon does not cross that line. If you're going to take him out, you need to be consistent and thus, would have to dismantle the entire Hall because it belongs to someone happy to “put himself and business above humanity” on a regular basis.

    Koko is recognizable because he had a parrot. Ditch the bird and he'd be a much more faded memory. Sure, Jake Roberts also won zero titles but c'mon, you know he's not comparable to Koko otherwise. Roberts is at the top of the list of talkers and workers while Koko is somewhere far below beside hundreds of others.

    And again, Koko himself thinks the only reason he's in is not because of accomplishments or being deserving but because Vince wanted to apologize for firing him. Koko himself would agree with me on this, my dude.

  7. #7
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Koko B Ware is also a humble, self-deprecating individual. Just because someone can’t understand why his presence in the business would be acknowledged on the stage that it was doesn’t mean it wasn’t a good thing. Despite his win loss record he was a featured talent in and out of the ring. He did give us PILEDRIVER, the anthem of the 80’s wrestling fan. Again, in an era where championships were held to a higher standard, guys like Koko B Ware didn’t need gold and didn’t even need a huge win streak to warrant a spot in a Hall of Fame that apparently has no issues with inducting people who most of the audience has never even heard of, contributing nothing to the WWE brand. Koko was a memorable talent for all the right reasons.


    One of the FEW African-Americans of his era. You could count on one hand how many black wrestlers Vince had on the payroll. That alone was an inspiration to many. He was also one of the few smaller wrestlers who did high flying moves. While Carlos was down in Puerto Rico threatening to slit Vince’s throat, strong arming him into a relationship that only benefited WWC, Koko was cementing his spot as a guy who could work with anyone and entertain the demographic like no other back in the late 80’s into the early early 90’s. He did have the 1st match on Raw, that says a lot about how Vince viewed him.


    Carlos Colon is an embarrassment. According to you his qualifications are he did some things in Puerto Rico that helped the wrestling business there. One of those things were covering up the murder of Bruiser Brody then doing a spin story trying to say Invader was justified while threatening any of the witnesses.


    And I’ll say this, you definitely made a good argument for why Vince shouldn’t be given the Nobel Peace Prize. None of it excuses the reality that Carlos Colon doesn’t deserve a spot in the World Wrestling Entertainment Hall of Fame. I’m not here to talk about Vince and what he’s done in his business and personal lives. His moral compass isn’t what’s up for debate here. We might as well just close the hall of fame asap but even then when one sprouts up based on the WWE, Carlos Colon is not going to be a name that jumps out for a while. He’s filler. Koko went in based on impact, entertainment value, the Morris Day and the Time theme song at one point, as well as breaking barriers and being an inspiration not just to minority wrestlers but fans of color that weren’t represented. Colon has done none of that for the WWE brand. He’s only used the WWE brand to help further his own promotion while the WWE gets nothing but a bunch of fans wondering “WHO THE FUCK IS THIS GUY?”


  8. #8
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    ROUND OVER!

    Voting commences now, here's how it works:

    - The winner of each tie will be chosen equally from 4 sources. 3 selected judges and a public vote.

    - The 3 selected judges who will PM their votes to Mazer and myself. The judges are @Jarrod1983, @Psycho666Soldier and @virmicious so please send us your votes. Each judge's vote will be worth one point each to the total overall score.

    - The 4th source is a public vote where readers can post in this thread who they felt had the better argument. The combined public vote will count as one point towards the overall score.

    - If there is a 2-2 score in the total score of a tie after all the judging and public voting, then special guest judge Mazer shall break the tie.

    - All votes must be backed up with solid reasoning. Anyone who just says stuff in their votes like "I voted for Mikey just because his argument was better or I agree with him" will be asked to elaborate on their vote further before it can be counted.

    Voting will be open for 120 hours, same length as the tie.

    VOTE NOW!

  9. #9
    I Went To America Gangers's Avatar
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    It's a tough one to call. I like that the argument is almost about two different things; Nash was smart to not fight on the same battlefield of someone who has achieved little as mth is absolutely right that Koko is pretty much the yardstick as far as that goes, instead reframing the debate about someone with a dubious moral character, to say the least.

    mth is also right that there are some real pieces of shit in the Hall of Fame, AND there are people who did most of their work outside of the WWF/E. But I don't think there are too many that are both. I don't think the arguments about Vince and the blood money etc are really that relevant to the topic at hand.

    Ultimately, I can believe that Koko B Ware was a popular performer whose personality probably did appeal to a lot of fans in his heyday who would still remember him fondly, and I think there are many lower card performers who have barely flirted with titles that I'd totally back to go into the HoF for their longevity and characters. Nash Diesel made me hate Carlos Colon in this thread, a man I barely knew existed. He sounds like a piece of shit. When you add in to that how little he actually did within the WWF/E, I have to say I'm more convinced that Carlos Colon should be booted out of the Hall of Fame and society as a whole so I'm giving my nod to Nash Diesel.

  10. #10
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    I liked both arguments as well. When I read the question, I immediately thought of Koko B Ware as being among the least worthy inductees, based on his talent and resume. And I don't mean to disrespect the Bird Man, because as an entertainer, he was OVER, just not nearly at what many would consider Hall of Fame worthy. mth did a great job in pointing out the reasons why Koko didn't do all that much to stand out. I think Nash's second post was weak, in that he acknowledged that Colon's contributions to wrestling were significant - but IMHO Nash failed to address mth's point -
    And that's pretty disrespectful to essentially write-off an entire country's wrestling history that is so firmly entrenched in this man.
    Even when PR is a US territory, and not its own country.

    And mth correctly noted that it's Vince's Hall, and that he is the ultimate judge of questionable character allowing folks in or out - which took the wind out of Nash's argument. When you think about everything, including contributions to the industry as a whole, if we tossed out people of less-than-ideal character (as Nash suggested by ignoring that it's Vince's call), then Koko would still be very far down the list compared to the other inductees. But if we followed mth's argument, which he supported well by bringing up Mil Mascaras, Inoki, etc., Colon does have more reason to be in the Hall based on his contributions.

    For that reason, I am going with mth.

  11. #11
    Foot on a spiiiiiiiiike
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    ND

    He made a great point about Colon being involved and covering up a murder. Pretty compelling.

  12. #12
    Once upon a time... kdestiny's Avatar
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    I have to side slightly with mth here.

    This was one of the most interesting debates I remember reading and it was pretty close to me for the most part until I thought about how one could've countered the other a bit more. I think ND could've expanded a bit more on why Koko deserved to be in based on not only what he did for Vince, but also before it.

    He did not, and I feel that mth countered the shady business dealings and several title reigns well enough to take it here.

    Good work guys, legitimately one of the more difficult ones I can recall.

  13. #13
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Okay attention!

    The public vote is tied 2-2 and the judges are split 2-1. I shall leave this open until tomorrow night til
    I get home from the football match I will be attending. I would love more public votes so this can be settled once and for all.

    If the vote tally is a tie with the public and the judges tomorrow night, I will put on the judge’s robes myself and break the tie. If the public vote along with the judges votes is tied after tomorrow night, then will go on the judge’s majority.

    Essentially public this in your hands at the moment. This is probably the closest tie in this competition and would like to see overall what the public like rather than leave that vote at a 2-2. If it’s an overall tie I will sort it, but would love to see more public votes and a public winner. mth and Nash worked very hard and IMO had one of the best debates not just in this competition but amongst all the tournaments ran and they deserve your time and votes.

    Please vote more by tomorrow. Thank you for your time.

  14. #14
    Basic Bish virmicious's Avatar
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    germany
    Vote virm

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by virmicious View Post
    Vote virm
    Wrong game.

    But after my post, let’s avoid further posting til I end it.

  16. #16
    Basic Bish virmicious's Avatar
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    ^this post?

  17. #17
    Sometimes I disagree Mazer's Avatar
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    This was a tough one. TI went back and forth on this one. Nash Diesel's choice was great and compelling. He drew on a sense of decency to make a compelling argument. mth's ability to paint a narrative, and even draw on Koko's statement led to a compelling choice. Ultimately, I go with mth. I believe that the point that separates has to do with Colon's influence in PR, and ND's point about the Wrestling Observer HOF and focus on WWE was largely undone by the mth's straightforward counter of the WWE's precedent. ND almost had me back with his build-up on Koko at the end, but it wasn't quite enough to overcome mth's earlier effective devaluation of koko.


    This was my favorite debate so far.

  18. #18
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    Cheers Mazer! Okay beleive it or not this is still a tie lol!

    Right if there's no more public votes, when I get finished with football tomorrow afternoon, will put on the robes and have to break someone's hearts. This will be done, before I do, wanna say advance to @mth and @Nash Diesel thank you guys for pushing this to the absolute limit. Real shame to see one of you guys go out, I've read this a couple of times casually and been undecided but I'm going to have to be absolute precise and nitpick this to hell if I have to.

    If somebody or more people vote before I get back, then that will be added to public vote. Absolutely Even Stevens now.

  19. #19
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Re-reading this again, I know who I will be voting for if I have to and what I want to say have picked out a few points to nitpick. Great debate by both but there's some red flags I cannot ignore and fair warning because this will be quite brutal if I have to vote.

    Will leave this till after football though in case there's other opinions.

  20. #20
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    Working on my tie-breaking plus results now. Stay chooned!

  21. #21
    Legend Badger's Avatar
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    Before I post my thoughts, here are the rest of the results first:

    PUBLIC VOTE: mth wins 3-2 so one point to mth. Well done dude!

    JUDGE JARROD1983




    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod1983
    Another great debate. Everybody has done really well this year. This was a great back and forth that I have pondered quite a bit.

    Nash really had strong arguments with how slimey Carlos is, how no one gave a drizzle shit when Carlos showed up on WWF/E TV, how Koko was a inspiration to a lot of fans in the 80s and how Koko's Piledriver involvement and career are fondly remembered. I might have even mentioned Koko's work before the WWF (since Colon's outside achievements were mentioned) and how over he was, which is why Vince brought him into the WWF in the first place. Koko was no slouch, nobody was in the 80s WWF as most were top talents from all over. The use of the Viceland video was also a nice touch.

    For the record, I did disagree with ND saying the 93 Rumble was one of the worst. My first live PPV and boy was the room behind Bobby Backlund. My uncles and father that watched with me were highly disappointed when Yokozuna finally tossed Bob out.

    On the flip side, mth had solid arguments with how Vince is equally slimey with his involvement in things like the Snuka situation. He explained how no titles, no sustained main event runs and how Koko was a jobber to the stars while Carlos was winning championships and carrying the flag for Puerto Rican wrestling really put Carlos as a more deserving pick than Koko.

    In the end I really felt, by a hair, that Nash Diesel won this showdown of the immortals. I felt like his use of video was great and that he really sold me on why Carlos shouldn't be in and why Koko had his place in the WWF in the 1980s which led to his eventual induction. Great job guys. It really could have gone either way!
    1 point to Nash.

    JUDGE PSYCHO666SOLDIER



    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho666Soldier
    (Sorry for the delay, Badge. Between mafia and seriously not knowing who I gave the edge to, it was hard to find the time to sit down and hash this out).












    This wasn't a debate I could really read and come back to the overall package and make a decision on. So this vote is more of my real-time notes on the second read-through, with sort of a summary at the end of it. Trying to do it my traditional just didn't seem to work for this debate, so props to both of you for making me work extra hard here.

    -Nash Diesel took a very interesting and smart approach as a counter. Rather than just find someone who has less accomplishments than Koko, he found someone who has next to zero WWE accomplishments and a horrible real-life rap sheet in Carlos Colon, Sr. This was the kind of option that I think put mth on the ropes. It was an unexpected approach, and one that within one post, seemed to be a more convincing option than Koko.
    -Comparing Colon to the likes of the celebrity wing and pointing out how he's even a worse choice than them really struck a chord here.
    -Powerful quote: "What boxes does he check? Influence? Zero. Major championships? Zero. Memorable? For all the wrong reasons."


    -While I don't know how much I personally agree, mth was smart to use Colon's legacy outside of WWE as a counter-argument. It's right there and unless you have better ammo, it should be used. This is an argument that can be easily countered by saying that the WWE HoF shouldn't be about outside legacies. However, while Nash kind of had a whiff at it, I think he came up short in hammering the fact that the WWE Hall of Fame shouldn't be about outside legacies alone. And let's face it, Colon's overall wrestling legacy is greater than Koko's was. Perhaps Nash knew this was opening a can of worms that would have only hurt his case.
    -Turning Nash's championship reign argument against him was pretty clever, as I don't know if Nash ever turned that back around.
    -I wasn't as wowed by the argument that Carlos was there at points and helped with the WWE-Puerto Rico relationship, especially after hearing Nash talk about threatening to stab Vince. I also thought bringing up the likes of Inoki and El Santo was a moot point simply because each person was confined to pick one choice, and I think Nash proved that Carlos is, in the least, the least deserving of them as a human being.
    -Perhaps mth's strongest point here, which he builds upon in the final post, is that "shady business" is commonplace in the WWE, Vince's life, and the Hall of Fame. In that sense, there are many others you could take out for that reason alone. And if you disregard that, than Koko has less accomplishments than Colon. I do think that using the hypothetical of Benoit was not a great example to start with, though.


    -And Nash shuts that down pretty well in his second post, showing that "half of the Hall of Fame" that mth brought up wasn't involved in something as shady as a murder, and comparing him to the likes of those who would support "murderer" Benoit to go into the Hall of Fame was an interesting comparison.
    -Nash does make the point that the outside contributions would be good for the Observer HoF vs. WWE's, and it was a point that needed to be made. But I still think Nash didn't quite hammer down on this point more to emphasize it.
    -The comparison to Jake the Snake was a strong selling point, though. Koko was over with a silly gimmick and undesirable booking, so for him to get over without "booking himself 26 times as champ" says a lot of Koko's place in the HoF.
    -Overall, though, I felt this second post was lacking meat compared to his first round salvo, and it could have strongly benefitted from more elaboration.


    -Overall, up to this point, I think Nash still had a stronger argument based off the quality of his first post, and even though mth threw some shit at him, I don't know that it discounted Nash's pick too much. But the third post is where mth makes his strongest point against Carlos Colon, and officially draws a line to create two debates: Who deserves it least as a human being and who deserves it least as an important part of WWE. And that's where the debate becomes particularly tough, because it's a valid question: if Vince McMahon is the measuring stick for moral character, how can you say someone doesn't deserve it because their character is lacking? So now the reader must decide which matters more: moral character or contribution and legacy? Because the answer for each seems obvious on the surface. So I guess the question for me should be, "Did mth convince me that Carlos Colon, Sr.'s moral character didn't hold weight compared to Koko's lack of contributions?"
    -For starters, when comparing the dealings with Saudi Arabia to the likes of Colon and Invader 1, he makes a strong point for the association with Saudi being worse than the association with Colon. And bringing up Jimmy Snuka was the clincher, showing that Vince basically did the same thing that Colon did.
    -I think saying Koko wouldn't be recognizable without the parrot is a bit dismissive, as I had always known the name and the character before I ever actually paid attention to the parrot. That said, shutting down the comparison to Jake Roberts was necessary, as they truly are in two different leagues.


    -Nash has a lot to counter against here, but he does make some key points. PILEDRIVER was a pretty big deal during that era, and he was a regularly featured superstar. I also think pointing out that he's humble was smart, as you hear many HoF'ers say in thier speeches that they didn't think they deserved it or would make it that far. This was something I thought when mth first brought it up, but I didn't want to count it unless Nash mentioned it, and he did.
    -I think Nash doesn't have a lot of specific accomplishments to bring up about Koko, which doesn't help, but he does bring up some key facts that really bring up his profile. He was an inspiration for being a prominent black wrestler, and being in the first match of RAW is actually a fine honor(If you ignore what actually happens in that match). But I think most powerfully in this paragraph, he reiterates that Carlon Colon strong-armed Vince into a working relationship. This is the sort of thing that says to me that, despite never pushing him, Vince chose Koko because he wanted Koko to go in. Vince probably wouldn't have given Carlos Colon a sniff if not for Colon forcing his way into his company, much like he did when forcing his position at the top like Nash pointed out.
    -The final paragraph. Hot damn. This is where Nash throws down the gauntlet. After a thorough debate where he seemed to mostly hinge on Carlos Colon's moral character, which mth had to spend plenty of words justifying, he comes out with his ultimate point: Carlos Colon, Sr. is filler. I think one of mth's biggest weaknesses to his arguments about why Colon could be justified in the Hall of Fame was his reliance on the idea that if Colon doesn't deserve it, then neither do the other people. But the debate ultimately isn't about those other people: it's about the simple fact that Koko is more recognizable and has done more for WWE than Carlos Colon, a man who most will say, "WHO THE FUCK IS THIS GUY?"



    While Nash was not excellent at selling Koko B. Ware as being particularly deserving, he did more to justify his place in the WWE Hall of Fame than mth did disqualifying it. Even though he could have touched on it more, I think he made a good argument that outside contributions mean nothing, and all of Colon's successes relied on him being in control of his position. When you look at it this way, you can say Koko stamped his name in the minds of WWE fans without power or control, and seemed to be a humble, alright dude. Whereas Colon not only had little to nothing to do with WWE, but also was an awful person on the level of, or perhaps worse than, Vince McMahon.

    mth really came out swinging in this match, and despire his obvious concern for Nash's choice, I think he countered effectively and made me think he could the whole thing around. I think there is plenty of merit in using Vince as the moral measuring stick, but I think making the debate a two-pronged point ended up hurting him in the end. The big reason for this was that he could never argue Koko was morally worse than Vince, and ultimately...mth had nothing for Koko as far as why he doesn't deserve it. Nothing that actively detracted from his placement, just that he wasn't good enough. Nash actively has negative points that detract from Colon's worth, both as a person and in contributions to WWE. And while it's a hair margin and I think mth almost squeaked this out, I think Nash Diesel's ultimate point that Carlos Colon, Sr. is more irrelevant to the WWE Hall of Fame wins out.
    Another point to Nash.

    JUDGE VIRMICIOUS




    Quote Originally Posted by virmicious
    The lord of jungle juice, judge virmicious of the virmtex, now presides over this debate to give his most well thought out vote.

    Truth be told I thought this thing was over after reading nash's 1st post. The man just threw the hammer down. It was what you younglings call a mic drop I do believe. However, mth picked that mic up, turned that sumbitch sideways and debated his ass off. Point after point and turn after turn mth smelled what the nash was cooking, ate it, and asked for dessert. Nash unfortunately had no desserts to give. Mth wins this one in an excellent debate. Mth may now have 10 minutes alone with the boogeyman.
    One point to mth.

    Currently 2-2. I will break it quite shortly.
    Last edited by Badger; March 1st, 2020 at 7:26 PM. Reason: Fixing judge pic

  22. #22
    Basic Bish virmicious's Avatar
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    Those robes must be tricky to put on

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    Psycho really goes for it with those judgements eh!? Fair play.

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    I don't understand, so mth wins public vote and voted by Virm. Then Nash ties it by being voted by Jarrod and Psycho. Finally then Mazer votes for mth...I just don't understand it.

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    Basic Bish virmicious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Diamond View Post
    I don't understand, so mth wins public vote and voted by Virm. Then Nash ties it by being voted by Jarrod and Psycho. Finally then Mazer votes for mth...I just don't understand it.
    Public vote =1 for mth (mazer vote counted with public)
    My vote = 1 for mth
    Psycho = 1 for nash
    Jarrod = 1 for nash

    Therefore it is 2 to 2
    2 to 2

  26. #26
    OBJECTION Psycho666Soldier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Shackleford View Post
    Psycho really goes for it with those judgements eh!? Fair play.
    #judgelife

    I'm usually not so detailed when I'm a public voter. But I try to give it serious thought when I'm an official judge.

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    Basic Bish virmicious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho666Soldier View Post
    #judgelife

    I'm usually not so detailed when I'm a public voter. But I try to give it serious thought when I'm an official judge.
    I dialed my last one back to give you a rub. Least I could do.

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    OBJECTION Psycho666Soldier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by virmicious View Post
    I dialed my last one back to give you a rub. Least I could do.
    I won't drag you through the mud when I release my next best-selling auto-biography.

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    Basic Bish virmicious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho666Soldier View Post
    I won't drag you through the mud when I release my next best-selling auto-biography.
    Uh, let me call my agent real fast. I might need to make a few changes in my book.

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    Sorry got sidetracked.

    Gimme a bit.

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    JUDGE BADGER



    Sorry for the delay gentlemen, Mrs Badger shrunk my robe in the wash somI had to go buy another one.

    Sterling effort by both guys and this was very close. A few points I have to nitpick in orfer for me to setlle post and so I'm going to go through each post and nitpick points to settle this. First off mth's first post:

    Quote Originally Posted by mth View Post
    "A sure-fire Hall of Famer”
    “A Hall of Fame worthy career"
    When phrases like these are used to refer to a WWE superstar not yet in the Hall, they aren't used willy-nilly. They are reserved for those who have made significant achievements: multiple championships, memorable feuds, performing at the top of their division and the top of the card, a lasting impact that cements their status as a pillar of the wrestling business.
    There is a status that is implied when someone is a Hall of Famer.

    But there is one wrestler that brought the Hall's credibility into question upon his induction.
    A man who set the bar so low you might trip on it.
    A man whose name continues to be brought up every year when a dubious inductee is announced.
    A man who caused wrestling fans to begin to say, ¬“Well, if he's in, anyone can get in.¬”
    You can search this very board and find repeated posts about how his induction is undeserved (it's just about the only thing a search for him results in and my opponent probably said it himself if I could wrangle the goddamn search to find it).

    A man who won ZERO championships while being with the company for about eight years.
    A man who never rose above the midcard.
    A man best remembered as a “jobber to the stars”.
    A man who has himself gone on record as saying the only reason he thinks he was inducted was as an apology from Vince McMahon.
    A man who never made another appearance with the company after being inducted.
    A man who's parrot deserved the induction just as much, if not more so, than he did.
    And that man is Koko B. Ware.

    I'm not going to discount Koko had pretty solid in ring ability. I'm not going to discount that he had charisma or that his colorful persona and bird sidekick weren't appropriate for the time period he performed during. I'm not going to say jobbers don't have their purpose to help build the bigger stars. I'm not here to bash Koko.
    But I will say that there were and are hundreds of Kokos passing though WWE.
    Plenty of “good enough” performers, hell, even underrated/underutilized performers which Koko very well might have been.
    But we're talking about Hall of Fame worthy wrestlers.
    And those should be rare.
    Those should be stands outs.
    Those should be pillars and icons.
    People who changed the game and shaped the industry with accomplishments and accolades not easily attained.
    Those should not be a dime a dozen (or a penny a hundred).
    And Koko B. Ware was exactly that.
    He was good.
    Almost everyone is good.
    But almost everyone shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame.
    But every year when inductions come around, you can count on rolled eyes and sighs at even the least deserving being OK because hey, Koko B. Ware is in.
    Might as well just throw the door open.
    Okay a very good opening post by mth but a few things jump out at me.

    1, While I am in no doubt mth is telling the truth about the amount of times Koko has come up on this board as a HOF-worthy candidate, he admittedly fails to present the evidence because he could not produce the search results. If you're going to make a point like that, back it up with the evidence.
    2. Koko feeling his selection was an apology from Vince. A true statement but I think bringing it up here does not help mth's case. I'll come back to this point because mth brings it up again later on,
    3. Saying the parrot deserved the induction just as much is complete hyperbole which really weakens his argument in my opinion in an otherwise very good opening post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    Carlos Colon Sr


    Aside from a few matches 50+ years ago in the WWWF, a random Raw appearance in 2006 that nobody saw, and a forgotten entrant among a list of forgotten entrants in one of the worst Rumbles ever (1993), what did this man ever accomplish to warrant a spot in the WWE Hall of Fame?


    Putting your own championship on yourself 20+ times in a territory inside a territory? Threatening to stab Vince McMahon to death if he tried to expand into Puerto Rico in the 80¬’s before sabotaging the murder trial of Bruiser Brody, that right there is what makes his induction so mind boggling. Daniel Bryan wore furry boots ala Brody to protest the induction at Mania 30. The Vice episode "The Killing of Bruiser Brody" did this man absolutely NO FAVORS. Tony Atlas, Dutch Mantel, and others give firsthand accounts of the situation that paints Colon in the worst way.




    Sure, there are MANY talents both in the main and the legacy wing that never received a paycheck from Vince¬’s family, but how many of them have the dirty history of Colon?


    From using his sons as bargaining chips to (one day) get the WWC library to helping cover up the murder of the iconic Bruiser Brody, using his political stroke in Puerto Rico to help Invader 1 be cleared of chargers. Not to mention using his death as a means to make himself a bigger babyface than he already was booking himself as. To say his induction was disgusting is putting it mildly.


    On top of all of this, nothing memorable under the WWE banner, barely any footage for fans of the past, present, and future to see on the Network.


    What boxes does he check? Influence? Zero. Major championships? Zero. Memorable? For all the wrong reasons. If we can’t touch the celebrity wing with the winners like Donald Trump and Pete Rose, 2 scumbags that didn¬’t even help cover up a murder, then I see no reason to include Carlos Colon Sr. I would go as far to say that he should be removed if we're going to remove people like Hulk Hogan for saying something behind closed doors, then we should remove someone who has ultimately made his name off the blood of one of the boys.
    Instead of picking another jobber to counteract Koko, Nash actually goes in another direction and makes a very smart pick in Carlos by describing his infamous he was with the Brody scandal and bringing up his control over the booking.. I actually could not find much wrong with his opener. Using video was good although I could not see it but I think that's a regional issue with me being in the UK so can't fault him for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by mth View Post
    What did Carlos Colon, Sr. do to warrant a spot in the WWE Hall of Fame?

    It should be noted that the WWE Hall of Fame not only recognizes those who have had success within the company itself but also recognizes worldwide talent by inducting some of the biggest names from Japan, Mexico, etc.. People who have influenced and shaped the industry around the globe.
    And Carlos Colon, Sr. undeniably did that in Puerto Rico.
    Colon, along with Victor Jovica, filled a void in the Puerto Rican scene by starting a promotion that not only gave native wrestlers a chance to become stars but also brought in some of the world's top talent (Savage, Flair, Hansen, Brody, Abdullah the Butcher) to give the fans the chance to see stars they'd never have seen outside of their island otherwise. That promotion, World Wrestling Council, still exists to this day.
    Colon was essentially the father of Puerto Rican wrestling, putting it on the map, making it bloom, and keeping it alive.

    You can point to him being champion 26 times like it's a bad thing but unless you can also provide support to prove it was harmful, I'm just going to point to the fact that him being champion only tied into the success of the company, that maybe he was the best man for the job, that the fans embraced him as a star, and that he was willing to literally bleed on the regular to ensure its success (such as the legendary two-decade-spanning feud with Abdullah), and he continued to be a draw even into his sixties (his in-ring career spanned over forty years).

    If you want to say zero influence and zero major championships, you might as well say Purto Rico doesn't exist.
    And that's pretty disrespectful to essentially write-off an entire country's wrestling history that is so firmly entrenched in this man.

    If folks like El Santo, Mil Mascaras, Rikidozan, and Antonio Inoki deserve to be for their global contributions, Colon absolutely does, as well.
    While he may not have done much on camera in WWE, he did wrestle and appear for them (which is more than can be said for other inductees) and played a significant role behind the scenes maintaining a WWE-Purto Rico relationship that helped bring the company there on numerous occasions.

    People are petitioning for Chris Benoit to be not only be un-erased from WWE history but to also go into the Hall of Fame. An actual murderer. A child murderer. Benoit was not the founding father of wrestling for an entire country. And Colon was not an actual murderer even if he might have been involved in shady business. Half the Hall of Fame was involved in shady business. Wrestling has always been rife with shady business. Vince McMahon himself is balls deep in shady business.

    So yes, Colon may have done some bad things but he also almost single-handedly made Puerto Rican wrestling a thing.
    Meanwhile, Koko B. Ware did fuck all.
    mth comes back swinging here and makes a lot of good points, but seeing as I'm nitpicking, I do have to point out that Puerto Rico is not a country but a US territory. He should have checked what he was saying before posting. That may be a bit petty on my part, but I have to bring up the small differences to separate these guys.

    mth mentions a few other guys like Santo and Mascaras by mentioning their contributions but he glazed over this a bit. A little bit of background as to why they're in could have helped here.

    Also bringing up that people are petitioning for Benoit to get in I felt was a bit irrelevant. If Benoit was in the Hall of Fame then you could perhaps compare his atrocities side by side with Carlos but Benoit is not in the Hall of Fame so I felt this point was a bit of a moot one.

    Also he only dedicates one sentence to Koko in his second pist instead of hammering home why he does not deserve it. I felt he spent too much time on the counter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    Half of the Hall of Fame weren't involved in covering up a murder to ensure they could continue making money hand over first with the murderer. Completely watering down what happened to Brody and Colon's involvement as to say it's commonplace. Chris Benoit isn't either and despite all his in ring glory he still murdered his young son and wife in cold blood. What does that say about fans wanting to prop up murderers? Colon might as well have stuck Frank himself.

    And I'm in no way dismissing contributions, you made a great case for him to be inducted into the Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame. The WWE have definitely broadened who gets accepted to fill time. Or as a gesture to get a video library.



    Koko gets a bad wrap because a lot of fans don't understand how these things work. Some aren't in because the WWE legally cannot induct them or they're spreading out some of the larger names. But Koko was no 1 in a 1000. He's from an era where unlike in WWC he didn't have to book himself 26 times as champ to get over. Jake the Snake, another icon, zero titles in the WWF.Some talent didn't need the gold to become a legend. 30 years later Kok is still one of the most recognized wrestlers. Even appeared on Tosh.0. WWE fans know Koko and his contributions inspired many wrestlers past and present.

    What's even worse is Brody wasn't even properly inducted. Nope. He's in the fucking legacy wing while the man who put himself and business above humanity gets the red carpet treatment.
    Nash had a decent counter here by bringing up the lack of WWE contributions. Went maybe slightly off-topic a bit by bringing up some peooke who cannot be legally inducted.

    Biggest mistake here was bringing up Jake the Snake. Complete apples and oranges with him and Koko and I felt this did greatly weaken an otherwise great oost and left mth with an opening which he does take advantage of in his final pist,

    Quote Originally Posted by mth View Post
    If one is going to set qualifications for the WWE Hall of Fame based on moral standards then one must have some sort of baseline to attempt to draw a line. The most logical person for that purpose is the man whose Hall it is, because this is the WWE Hall, and that means one thing: it is Vince McMahon's Hall, therefore, that moral measuring stick should be him.

    Vince McMahon, who is, in only a couple of days, running another of a series of shows as part of a multi-show, long-term, big money deal with Saudi Arabia.
    Some call that big money “blood money”.
    Why's that?

    One month before one of these shows, Crown Jewel 2018, Saudi agents murdered Jamal Khashoggi.
    Massive attention and pressure came from politicians and the media urging WWE to cancel the show and reconsider their business dealings the Saudi Arabia.
    Members of WWE's own roster refused to participate (and continue to refuse to work these shows).
    WWE essentially did little more than stop mentioning the country for a bit but moved forward regardless because it was strictly business.

    So wait, mth, you're telling us that Vince McMahon readily makes blood money by running a company that proceeded with its business dealings working with someone who committed murder?
    Hmm, that sounds familiar.
    But wait, there's more!
    Let's not forget Saudi Arabia's human rights issues, women's rights issues, LGBTQ rights issues, and the war in Yemen!
    I don't think Invader 1 had all that attached to him, too.


    ALSO! Jimmy Snuka might have murdered his girlfriend and Vince went ahead and continued to work with him, too.

    So that's twice Vince basically did exactly what Colon did. And Vince has plenty of other shady shit to his name beyond this.
    But if you're going to say there needs to be a moral line for his Hall, you have to draw that line with him.
    And Colon does not cross that line. If you're going to take him out, you need to be consistent and thus, would have to dismantle the entire Hall because it belongs to someone happy to “put himself and business above humanity” on a regular basis.

    Koko is recognizable because he had a parrot. Ditch the bird and he'd be a much more faded memory. Sure, Jake Roberts also won zero titles but c'mon, you know he's not comparable to Koko otherwise. Roberts is at the top of the list of talkers and workers while Koko is somewhere far below beside hundreds of others.

    And again, Koko himself thinks the only reason he's in is not because of accomplishments or being deserving but because Vince wanted to apologize for firing him. Koko himself would agree with me on this, my dude.
    A very strong closing post including shutting down the Jake comparison and good thought saying Vince is the measuring stick but a few things.

    1, I felt mth rambled on a bit with the Saudi Arabia point and could have condensed that.
    2. Parrot hyperbole again and he already mentioned it in his first post. Didn't like it then, don't like it here.
    3. Remember earlier when I said I would come back as to why I felth mth bringing up Koko's feelings was a bad thing and I would come back to it? Well now I'll come back to it. I feel this point is very misleading into getting people to think Koko feels he is unworthy. That's not what he's saying really. Koko is very proud of his career and what he's done, he just didn't agree with the circumstances as to why he thinks Vince inducted him.

    Nash's last post was very strong. I felt he shut down mth's argument in Kofo allegedly feeling he did not deserve it and makes a couple of very good points bringing up Koko being one of the few African Americans ofvhis era and also his distinctive wrestlung theme. Much more than just a parrot.

    A very very close one but I have to put @Nash Diesel through. I felt he was overall stronger and made fewer mistakes than @mth. I'm sorry mth.

  32. #32
    god's perfect boy mth's Avatar
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    I ain't fussed. We both fought hard and it was tight, somebody had to go down and I honestly thought I'd lose in much easier fashion all things considered. to Diesel.

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