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February 3rd, 2020, 2:58 PM
#1
Wilfred's Debate Round 1 Tie 5 - mth vs Gangers
@Gangers vs @BBF
It's time to shaaaake things up!
Traditionally the Superstar Shake-Up was just between Raw and Smackdown, but as NXT is now considered a third brand it's gonna be a triple threat!
Your task is to choose a singles star or a tag team and also choose which brand you wish them ro move to. You must argue why your choice would most benefit from a switch as well as how the brand woukd benefit. Of course you must argue why your choice is a better switch than your opponent's. You can pick the same brand to move your choices to but not the same choice obviously!
RULES:
- You have 72 hours and 2 posts each in this debate. A maximum word count of 400 words per post will be allowed.
- All posts must be done within the 72 hour time limit so any posts made after the time limit will not count even if there is in an uneven number of posts at the end.
- All posts must be staggered. You can't make your next post until the other debater has had their turn.
- If there is a no-show from anyone after 72 hours, then their opponent who does turn up will automatically advance.
- No editing of posts allowed. Anything that is posted the first time is what will count so choose your words carefully.
- Pictures, gifs and videos can be used in literally unlimited amounts to support your point. Information should be self-contained within your post. For example, you can't post a link to an article and expect people to go read it. Quote it in your post.
The order of posting will be determined by a coin toss. The coin toss has revealed that Gangers will be going first!
Bring the Pain
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February 4th, 2020, 6:25 AM
#2
Firstly, let’s establish the problem to be solved, to show what the point of this ‘shakeup’ would be. WWE have suffered in recent years from an inability to create top level stars, and maintain their credibility. Even current and recent champions like Wyatt, Kingston and Orton lack a certain X-factor that elevates them from the level of, to use an analogy, 2002 Chris Jericho to the level of 2000 Triple H – a genuine feeling that the champion is among the best in the business, whether they hold the belt or not. Other near-main event level guys like Strowman and Corbin are already busted flushes due to inconsistent booking and in Strowman’s case, several failed attempts, placing them firmly in the position of Kane or Big Show; superstars that the audience is constantly told are a big threat but rarely actually threaten to win ‘the big one’. Other than possibly Kevin Owens, who could be redeemed, there don’t appear to be any talents knocking on the door to this exclusive club.
But there’s a megastar waiting in the wings in NXT who has the youth, the looks, the athleticism, the character, the ability and definitely above all, the charisma to truly be taken seriously at the top level and put a new face at the top of the card for the next decade or more. Moving from NXT to Raw is The Velveteen Dream.
The Dream is 24 years old, the same age as The Rock and Randy Orton when they won their first World Championships. Watch The Dream’s match with Ricochet from Takeover, or his title attempt vs. Tommaso Ciampa from the same year. This is a guy who can work different styles, against different opponents and generate huge audience responses regardless of the situation. WWE fans everywhere should be salivating at the prospect of matches against AJ Styles, Seth Rollins and Brock Lesnar, as well as rekindling his feud with Ricochet, which I could picture being a career long rivalry ala Rock/Austin, Cena/Punk or Rollins/Reigns.
Comparisons with The Rock are abundant – The Dream has trodden the well worn path of the heel that becomes so charismatic they win the crowd over and the springboard is set for the Velveteen Dream to become a mega babyface in the mould of The Great One. Upon his return from injury, it’s time for Raw to Dream.
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February 5th, 2020, 3:45 PM
#3
I think we can all agree that moving superstars from RAW to SD and vice versa isn't really going to make much of a ripple in the grand scheme of things. If you're going to do a move that matters, it's going to involve NXT. From there, your options are either to call someone up or move someone down.
An important thing is that at this point in time WWE are making efforts towards raising NXT to the same level as RAW/SD. This is part of why I think the best move is to move an established main roster superstar to NXT. I would explain why I wouldn't bring someone from NXT to RAW/SD, however that may be interpreted as me responding to my opponent's initial post so I will save it for later suffice it to say, there's a reason there's always a general concern about call ups and I'm not a gambling man.
If you're going to move someone to NXT, it needs to be someone that matters, someone that will benefit the brand, raise its status, and get more eyes on the product and improve it once they're there. For example, moving a floundering guy like Tyler Breeze might benefit the talent himself but doesn't do much for the overall product. Finn Balor likely did both, however, you can do something bigger and better. Finn should be a litmus test for bigger things to follow.
You need to move someone with experience and skill, who can work with new talent to help improve their ability and also have classic top-tier matches with the veterans. Someone who is passionate about wrestling who can thrive on a more wrestling-focused show and infect those around him with that passion. Someone beloved by fans across the spectrum, from hardcore internet nerds to easy-to-please WWE sheep. Someone would would make headlines and immediately bring eyes to the product and then take that attention and do something worthwhile with it. Someone who has feuds waiting with Adam Cole (who beat him) and Finn Balor (who underwent a similar journey).
Someone who's ready for a change.
Because feuding with The Fiend changes people.
It changed Balor. It changed Rollins.
And it started changing this man.
He got a haircut.
He reunited with his movement.
But it's time to complete the change.
It's time for Daniel Bryan to move to NXT.
YES YES YES.
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February 6th, 2020, 6:18 AM
#4
Daniel Bryan would undoubtedly have great matches with the NXT roster (including The Dream). But at 38 years old, with a young family and a series of injuries in his past, it’s hard to imagine Daniel Bryan being active for more than another three or four years. In addition, NXT is still ultimately supposed to be a feeder to Raw and Smackdown; make no mistake, it’s a step down and if you don’t believe me, check the bank balance of Adam Cole compared to even a midcard guy like Cesaro.
The other issue with moving Bryan to NXT is that it’s taking another spot from a developmental talent who needs the time. Balor made some sense with his history, but if the trend continues and guys like Bryan are moving down, why not Styles? Owens? Rollins? I think the same argument could be made for any of those guys and while I can see some benefit to the brand, I think there’s a downside too. NXT is already stuffed with experienced hands. At the same time, the loss of a credible main eventer, a former WWE Champion, to the main roster would be significant. NXT doesn’t need Bryan as much as Smackdown does.
As for Bryan himself, I don’t see much upside although I’m sure he’d enjoy it. He’s doing stellar work on Smackdown elevating guys like Bray Wyatt already – the suggestion seems to be to move him to NXT to do similar work but on a smaller platform, rather than promote someone to work with Bryan on the larger stage.
Yes, many NXT stars have been misused on Raw, but others have thrived. The Velveteen Dream is lightning in a bottle and like Daniel Bryan in 2014, I think would be almost impossible to keep down. This is a fully fleshed out, rounded character and to reiterate my earlier post, has the potential to be a main event star for ten years or more.
NXT is growing in significance but it will never be on the same level as Raw or Smackdown; to reach the upper echelons of the business, you have to move up. Daniel Bryan belongs on the biggest stage, and so does The Dream. The impact of another experienced hand in NXT is limited; but strap the rocket to The Velveteen Dream and the entire company could be transformed for years.
We can but Dream.
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February 7th, 2020, 11:48 AM
#5
Your opening point about Daniel's age, family, and remaining career time is all the more reason he SHOULD go to NXT where he can work a limited schedule, travel less, spend more time with his family and use his remaining career to make a significant, lasting contribution giving back to the business by elevating the brand and its talent before he hangs 'em up. Also, you mention paychecks like those are the primary motivator while someone like Ciampa has fought a call-up and gone on record saying he'd retire rather than move to RAW/SD for very similar reasons a guy like Bryan would probably be glad to go there (health, family) because some things are more important than money. And again, Balor was happy to take the pay cut (if indeed there even was one).
Bryan wouldn't be taking a spot if NXT is a feeder. New spots would be opening on the regular if other talent are moving up. You can unstuff it with the annual Shake Up. I'm not arguing against cycling down some of the other roster members you mentioned, either. If anything, guys like Balor and Bryan, as I said, should be the start of that being a thing to elevate the brand and benefit the novice talent.
Moving Bryan does create a hole on SD. AKA Opportunity. Finally elevate Ali. A well-timed superkick from Ziggler to Corbin and a strong top face emerges. Say Bryan was traded for the very Bryan-esque Gargano to come to SD and shine. Need I also remind you that Bryan was retired for two years and SD kept on just fine. SD doesn't need Bryan, SD needs new stars and his departure would open a spot for someone to step up.
Yes, Dream has potential. So did EC3, Dallas, Ascension, Breeze, SanitY, and countless other fleshed out, rounded characters. Even folks like Nakamura and Asuka, both seemingly undeniable sure-fire successes like Dream, have done far more floundering than flourishing since leaving NXT. In fact, those charismatic, colorful, flamboyant, talented two are very similar to Dream and I could easily see him following suit when Vince doesn't know what he is or what to do with him. Perhaps a strong start and some dabbling at higher levels but ultimately, Dream will follow the suit of so many who have made the move: better off before and better off in our dreams.
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February 7th, 2020, 12:28 PM
#6
ROUND OVER!
Voting commences now, here's how it works:
- The winner of each tie will be chosen equally from 4 sources. 3 selected judges and a public vote.
- The 3 selected judges who will PM their votes to Mazer and myself. The judges are @Jarrod1983, @Psycho666Soldier and @virmicious so please send us your votes. Each judge's vote will be worth one point each to the total overall score.
- The 4th source is a public vote where readers can post in this thread who they felt had the better argument. The combined public vote will count as one point towards the overall score.
- If there is a 2-2 score in the total score of a tie after all the judging and public voting, then either myself, Mazer or perhaps a mystery judge will be asked to step in and break the tie.
- All votes must be backed up with solid reasoning. Anyone who just says stuff in their votes like "I voted for Mikey just because his argument was better or I agree with him" will be asked to elaborate on their vote further before it can be counted.
Voting will be open for 72 hours, same length as the tie.
VOTE NOW!
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February 7th, 2020, 12:47 PM
#7
mth
This was all riding on how mth would respond with his 2nd post. He did it brilliantly. Strong rebuttals for everything Gangers threw at him.
So yeah, mth gets the W due to his strong closing argument especially where he not only mentioned the schedule and unknown info as to how much of a paycut main roster talent might take but also showing Gangers what a very strong possibility the future for Velveteen Dream has waiting for him on the main roster.
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February 7th, 2020, 1:06 PM
#8
Turning back time
- Rep Power
- 1167179