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Thread: Wilfred's Debate Round 1 Tie 5 - mth vs Gangers

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    Furry, Filthy and Fun Badger's Avatar
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    Wilfred's Debate Round 1 Tie 5 - mth vs Gangers

    @Gangers vs @BBF



    It's time to shaaaake things up!

    Traditionally the Superstar Shake-Up was just between Raw and Smackdown, but as NXT is now considered a third brand it's gonna be a triple threat!

    Your task is to choose a singles star or a tag team and also choose which brand you wish them ro move to. You must argue why your choice would most benefit from a switch as well as how the brand woukd benefit. Of course you must argue why your choice is a better switch than your opponent's. You can pick the same brand to move your choices to but not the same choice obviously!

    RULES:

    - You have 72 hours and 2 posts each in this debate. A maximum word count of 400 words per post will be allowed.

    - All posts must be done within the 72 hour time limit so any posts made after the time limit will not count even if there is in an uneven number of posts at the end.

    - All posts must be staggered. You can't make your next post until the other debater has had their turn.

    - If there is a no-show from anyone after 72 hours, then their opponent who does turn up will automatically advance.

    - No editing of posts allowed. Anything that is posted the first time is what will count so choose your words carefully.

    - Pictures, gifs and videos can be used in literally unlimited amounts to support your point. Information should be self-contained within your post. For example, you can't post a link to an article and expect people to go read it. Quote it in your post.

    The order of posting will be determined by a coin toss. The coin toss has revealed that Gangers will be going first!


    Bring the Pain

  2. #2
    I Went To America Gangers's Avatar
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    Firstly, let’s establish the problem to be solved, to show what the point of this ‘shakeup’ would be. WWE have suffered in recent years from an inability to create top level stars, and maintain their credibility. Even current and recent champions like Wyatt, Kingston and Orton lack a certain X-factor that elevates them from the level of, to use an analogy, 2002 Chris Jericho to the level of 2000 Triple H – a genuine feeling that the champion is among the best in the business, whether they hold the belt or not. Other near-main event level guys like Strowman and Corbin are already busted flushes due to inconsistent booking and in Strowman’s case, several failed attempts, placing them firmly in the position of Kane or Big Show; superstars that the audience is constantly told are a big threat but rarely actually threaten to win ‘the big one’. Other than possibly Kevin Owens, who could be redeemed, there don’t appear to be any talents knocking on the door to this exclusive club.

    But there’s a megastar waiting in the wings in NXT who has the youth, the looks, the athleticism, the character, the ability and definitely above all, the charisma to truly be taken seriously at the top level and put a new face at the top of the card for the next decade or more. Moving from NXT to Raw is The Velveteen Dream.

    The Dream is 24 years old, the same age as The Rock and Randy Orton when they won their first World Championships. Watch The Dream’s match with Ricochet from Takeover, or his title attempt vs. Tommaso Ciampa from the same year. This is a guy who can work different styles, against different opponents and generate huge audience responses regardless of the situation. WWE fans everywhere should be salivating at the prospect of matches against AJ Styles, Seth Rollins and Brock Lesnar, as well as rekindling his feud with Ricochet, which I could picture being a career long rivalry ala Rock/Austin, Cena/Punk or Rollins/Reigns.

    Comparisons with The Rock are abundant – The Dream has trodden the well worn path of the heel that becomes so charismatic they win the crowd over and the springboard is set for the Velveteen Dream to become a mega babyface in the mould of The Great One. Upon his return from injury, it’s time for Raw to Dream.

  3. #3
    an affront to god mth's Avatar
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    I think we can all agree that moving superstars from RAW to SD and vice versa isn't really going to make much of a ripple in the grand scheme of things. If you're going to do a move that matters, it's going to involve NXT. From there, your options are either to call someone up or move someone down.

    An important thing is that at this point in time WWE are making efforts towards raising NXT to the same level as RAW/SD. This is part of why I think the best move is to move an established main roster superstar to NXT. I would explain why I wouldn't bring someone from NXT to RAW/SD, however that may be interpreted as me responding to my opponent's initial post so I will save it for later suffice it to say, there's a reason there's always a general concern about call ups and I'm not a gambling man.

    If you're going to move someone to NXT, it needs to be someone that matters, someone that will benefit the brand, raise its status, and get more eyes on the product and improve it once they're there. For example, moving a floundering guy like Tyler Breeze might benefit the talent himself but doesn't do much for the overall product. Finn Balor likely did both, however, you can do something bigger and better. Finn should be a litmus test for bigger things to follow.

    You need to move someone with experience and skill, who can work with new talent to help improve their ability and also have classic top-tier matches with the veterans. Someone who is passionate about wrestling who can thrive on a more wrestling-focused show and infect those around him with that passion. Someone beloved by fans across the spectrum, from hardcore internet nerds to easy-to-please WWE sheep. Someone would would make headlines and immediately bring eyes to the product and then take that attention and do something worthwhile with it. Someone who has feuds waiting with Adam Cole (who beat him) and Finn Balor (who underwent a similar journey).
    Someone who's ready for a change.
    Because feuding with The Fiend changes people.
    It changed Balor. It changed Rollins.
    And it started changing this man.
    He got a haircut.
    He reunited with his movement.
    But it's time to complete the change.
    It's time for Daniel Bryan to move to NXT.



    YES YES YES.

  4. #4
    I Went To America Gangers's Avatar
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    Daniel Bryan would undoubtedly have great matches with the NXT roster (including The Dream). But at 38 years old, with a young family and a series of injuries in his past, it’s hard to imagine Daniel Bryan being active for more than another three or four years. In addition, NXT is still ultimately supposed to be a feeder to Raw and Smackdown; make no mistake, it’s a step down and if you don’t believe me, check the bank balance of Adam Cole compared to even a midcard guy like Cesaro.

    The other issue with moving Bryan to NXT is that it’s taking another spot from a developmental talent who needs the time. Balor made some sense with his history, but if the trend continues and guys like Bryan are moving down, why not Styles? Owens? Rollins? I think the same argument could be made for any of those guys and while I can see some benefit to the brand, I think there’s a downside too. NXT is already stuffed with experienced hands. At the same time, the loss of a credible main eventer, a former WWE Champion, to the main roster would be significant. NXT doesn’t need Bryan as much as Smackdown does.

    As for Bryan himself, I don’t see much upside although I’m sure he’d enjoy it. He’s doing stellar work on Smackdown elevating guys like Bray Wyatt already – the suggestion seems to be to move him to NXT to do similar work but on a smaller platform, rather than promote someone to work with Bryan on the larger stage.

    Yes, many NXT stars have been misused on Raw, but others have thrived. The Velveteen Dream is lightning in a bottle and like Daniel Bryan in 2014, I think would be almost impossible to keep down. This is a fully fleshed out, rounded character and to reiterate my earlier post, has the potential to be a main event star for ten years or more.

    NXT is growing in significance but it will never be on the same level as Raw or Smackdown; to reach the upper echelons of the business, you have to move up. Daniel Bryan belongs on the biggest stage, and so does The Dream. The impact of another experienced hand in NXT is limited; but strap the rocket to The Velveteen Dream and the entire company could be transformed for years.

    We can but Dream.


  5. #5
    an affront to god mth's Avatar
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    Your opening point about Daniel's age, family, and remaining career time is all the more reason he SHOULD go to NXT where he can work a limited schedule, travel less, spend more time with his family and use his remaining career to make a significant, lasting contribution giving back to the business by elevating the brand and its talent before he hangs 'em up. Also, you mention paychecks like those are the primary motivator while someone like Ciampa has fought a call-up and gone on record saying he'd retire rather than move to RAW/SD for very similar reasons a guy like Bryan would probably be glad to go there (health, family) because some things are more important than money. And again, Balor was happy to take the pay cut (if indeed there even was one).

    Bryan wouldn't be taking a spot if NXT is a feeder. New spots would be opening on the regular if other talent are moving up. You can unstuff it with the annual Shake Up. I'm not arguing against cycling down some of the other roster members you mentioned, either. If anything, guys like Balor and Bryan, as I said, should be the start of that being a thing to elevate the brand and benefit the novice talent.

    Moving Bryan does create a hole on SD. AKA Opportunity. Finally elevate Ali. A well-timed superkick from Ziggler to Corbin and a strong top face emerges. Say Bryan was traded for the very Bryan-esque Gargano to come to SD and shine. Need I also remind you that Bryan was retired for two years and SD kept on just fine. SD doesn't need Bryan, SD needs new stars and his departure would open a spot for someone to step up.

    Yes, Dream has potential. So did EC3, Dallas, Ascension, Breeze, SanitY, and countless other fleshed out, rounded characters. Even folks like Nakamura and Asuka, both seemingly undeniable sure-fire successes like Dream, have done far more floundering than flourishing since leaving NXT. In fact, those charismatic, colorful, flamboyant, talented two are very similar to Dream and I could easily see him following suit when Vince doesn't know what he is or what to do with him. Perhaps a strong start and some dabbling at higher levels but ultimately, Dream will follow the suit of so many who have made the move: better off before and better off in our dreams.

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    ROUND OVER!

    Voting commences now, here's how it works:

    - The winner of each tie will be chosen equally from 4 sources. 3 selected judges and a public vote.

    - The 3 selected judges who will PM their votes to Mazer and myself. The judges are @Jarrod1983, @Psycho666Soldier and @virmicious so please send us your votes. Each judge's vote will be worth one point each to the total overall score.

    - The 4th source is a public vote where readers can post in this thread who they felt had the better argument. The combined public vote will count as one point towards the overall score.

    - If there is a 2-2 score in the total score of a tie after all the judging and public voting, then either myself, Mazer or perhaps a mystery judge will be asked to step in and break the tie.

    - All votes must be backed up with solid reasoning. Anyone who just says stuff in their votes like "I voted for Mikey just because his argument was better or I agree with him" will be asked to elaborate on their vote further before it can be counted.

    Voting will be open for 72 hours, same length as the tie.

    VOTE NOW!

  7. #7
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    mth

    This was all riding on how mth would respond with his 2nd post. He did it brilliantly. Strong rebuttals for everything Gangers threw at him.

    So yeah, mth gets the W due to his strong closing argument especially where he not only mentioned the schedule and unknown info as to how much of a paycut main roster talent might take but also showing Gangers what a very strong possibility the future for Velveteen Dream has waiting for him on the main roster.

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    Turning back time Kdestiny's Avatar
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    Might be the closest one yet. Excellent debate by both!

    There were great punches and counters here with Gangers bringing up Bryan's age, the pay difference, and the sheer talent in nxt.

    Mth countered with the main rosters bad track record with call ups, the comparison to Balor/Ciampa, and his creation of opportunities on Smackdown in his steady when they already have filled that void before.

    I gotta go with mth after seeing him kill it on his rebuttal and naming several examples where WWE has failed NXT stars on the main roster and drawing parallels to Nak and Asuka specifically. Gangers saying Bryan would enjoy it tipped it a bit more for me.

    Lovely stuff

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    I thought mth came too close to referring to his opponent's pick in his first post, and Gangers really made me want to see Velveteen Dream come to the main roster, where he'll get to work with Styles, Rollins, and maybe Lesnar, not to mention rekindling his feud with Ricochet. Because Velveteen Dream is only getting better.

    Also, Gangers rightly expected/predicted much of what mth would include in his rebuttal. Given that there are only 2 posts each, we don't want to allow recency bias to cloud judgment and rely only on who had the last word. mth did a stellar job with his rebuttal because there lots of examples of NXT superstars who don't thrive on the main roster. But mth really didn't convince me how Bryan - or the brand - would be better off on NXT. When mth reminded us that Bryan was retired for 2 years and SD didn't need him, that worked against his argument about how it would be better with him moving to a smaller audience on NXT. mth didn't really have a good answer to Gangers' valid point about the smaller audience for NXT.

    So to me, this is really close. So I step back, and try to think about what the WWE fans would want more? DB is one of the few real draws and the reactions he gets are at the very top of the business. Fans don't want to see him in arenas with 1500-3500 fans - and part of the fun of the YES! chants are enjoying the reaction with 20,000 other people. Fans do see NXT as a step down from the main roster, but the also see RAW as a deserved step up from NXT.

    For this reason, I'm going with Gangers as he presented the more likely, and also more deserving pick.

  10. #10
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    MTH

    He final post was excellent - he pointed out how a lot of the NXT guys were wasted on the main roster and countered all the other points well.

    Great debate by both

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    Furry, Filthy and Fun Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3puppies View Post
    I thought mth came too close to referring to his opponent's pick in his first post, and Gangers really made me want to see Velveteen Dream come to the main roster, where he'll get to work with Styles, Rollins, and maybe Lesnar, not to mention rekindling his feud with Ricochet. Because Velveteen Dream is only getting better.

    Also, Gangers rightly expected/predicted much of what mth would include in his rebuttal. Given that there are only 2 posts each, we don't want to allow recency bias to cloud judgment and rely only on who had the last word. mth did a stellar job with his rebuttal because there lots of examples of NXT superstars who don't thrive on the main roster. But mth really didn't convince me how Bryan - or the brand - would be better off on NXT. When mth reminded us that Bryan was retired for 2 years and SD didn't need him, that worked against his argument about how it would be better with him moving to a smaller audience on NXT. mth didn't really have a good answer to Gangers' valid point about the smaller audience for NXT.

    So to me, this is really close. So I step back, and try to think about what the WWE fans would want more? DB is one of the few real draws and the reactions he gets are at the very top of the business. Fans don't want to see him in arenas with 1500-3500 fans - and part of the fun of the YES! chants are enjoying the reaction with 20,000 other people. Fans do see NXT as a step down from the main roster, but the also see RAW as a deserved step up from NXT.

    For this reason, I'm going with Gangers as he presented the more likely, and also more deserving pick.
    Okay I've had a steward's enquiry and mth has a valid point. Remember voting is on who you felt debated better not your personal feelings.

    Also mth only made a passing comment about a star not going to Raw from NXT and didn't rebut Gangers at alk.

    You can still vote for Gangers if you feel he had the better argument but please edit and vote on the argument not your feelings.

  12. #12
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    Thanks for the clarification. Upon further reflection, I think I understand the voting process fairly but I didn't articulate how I got to my decision so well. When mth posted

    "
    I would explain why I wouldn't bring someone from NXT to RAW/SD, however that may be interpreted as me responding to my opponent's initial post so I will save it for later suffice it to say, there's a reason there's always a general concern about call ups and I'm not a gambling man."

    I thought he didn't really need to add the part I have underlined, as we've already seen his opponent's initial post, so the clear implication was being made that Gangers pick was a gamble. This is a tricky call and since you're the official arbitor, if you thought it was a problem you'd have made a ruling and cut it. As I read all the posts in order, I am allowed to consider that uneasy feeling about the debate style/posts into account. I was trying to explain that after both guys made their initial posts, I had Gangers ahead. As I evaluated their rebuttal points, I gave the nod to mth, so I more or less had them pretty much even.

    In a situation like this being so close, when we have to decide who has the better overall argument, it is inherently subjective and our personal feelings will no doubt cloud our judgment. On balance, I should say that I thought Gangers had me so looking forward to Dream's call up after the first post, and mth did not do enough to convince me that it'd be anything other than sad if DB was playing in front of smaller crowds. Since the instructions involved proving the benefit of your choice - to the wrestler and to the brand, there was little doubt to me that Gangers was able to do this as Dream, and Raw, would both benefit from a call up. I don't think that mth did as well with his choice - DB would not personally benefit from a move to the smaller arenas, but the NXT brand would benefit.

    Therefore, my vote remains with Gangers.



  13. #13
    an affront to god mth's Avatar
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    Just because I can clarify now, the reason I had that stuff in there had nothing to do with Gangers post and would have been in there regardless of what he was arguing. I was going through my rationale for my own pick, that a RAW/SD to SD/RAW move was a nothing move, that an NXT to the main roster move was a gamble with a bad track record, and thus, moving a RAW/SD superstar to NXT was the best option. My post would have been the same if I were the one making the first post except I wouldn't have had to worry about it seeming like a rebuttal to Gangers if that were the case.

  14. #14
    Furry, Filthy and Fun Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3puppies View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. Upon further reflection, I think I understand the voting process fairly but I didn't articulate how I got to my decision so well. When mth posted

    "
    I would explain why I wouldn't bring someone from NXT to RAW/SD, however that may be interpreted as me responding to my opponent's initial post so I will save it for later suffice it to say, there's a reason there's always a general concern about call ups and I'm not a gambling man."

    I thought he didn't really need to add the part I have underlined, as we've already seen his opponent's initial post, so the clear implication was being made that Gangers pick was a gamble. This is a tricky call and since you're the official arbitor, if you thought it was a problem you'd have made a ruling and cut it. As I read all the posts in order, I am allowed to consider that uneasy feeling about the debate style/posts into account. I was trying to explain that after both guys made their initial posts, I had Gangers ahead. As I evaluated their rebuttal points, I gave the nod to mth, so I more or less had them pretty much even.

    In a situation like this being so close, when we have to decide who has the better overall argument, it is inherently subjective and our personal feelings will no doubt cloud our judgment. On balance, I should say that I thought Gangers had me so looking forward to Dream's call up after the first post, and mth did not do enough to convince me that it'd be anything other than sad if DB was playing in front of smaller crowds. Since the instructions involved proving the benefit of your choice - to the wrestler and to the brand, there was little doubt to me that Gangers was able to do this as Dream, and Raw, would both benefit from a call up. I don't think that mth did as well with his choice - DB would not personally benefit from a move to the smaller arenas, but the NXT brand would benefit.

    Therefore, my vote remains with Gangers.


    Okay thanks for resubmitting your vote.

    As mth just said there, the underlined part wasn’t really responding to Gangers as such but overall if you thought Gangers did a better job of convincing you with the debate being so close then that’s good enough for me. It was more the last paragraph in your initial vote I had a problem with.

  15. #15
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    RESULTS

    PUBLIC VOTE mth 3-1 Gangers 1. 1 point to mth

    JUDGE PSYCHO666SOLDIER



    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho666Soldier
    I want to start this by saying that both Gangers and mth made excellent choices. In fact, this might have been the best debate of the tournament so far. Both were firing strong and made some excellent points. What's tough about it is they're arguments are on opposite sides of a coin, so they're counters almost balance each other in both being

    Gangers excellent set-up both the angle of the debate topic and the strength of his choice in the first post, really selling that Dream can do it all and has all the time and improvement in the world to get better than he already is. I think he lost some points in saying Finn made sense because of his history with NXT, but then followed that up by comparing it to 2 out of 3 guys that have significant history in NXT. But I think his statement that Smackdown needs him more than NXT rings true, selling me that adding a main roster star to NXT would be a bonus rather than a necessity. I also like the way he accounted for the 2-post limit by pre-emptively countering an argument that NXT stars don't often do well on the main roster. Comparing Dream to Daniel Bryan to show that his talent will allow him to break through was a nice touch, as well. Capping everything off by saying that the long-term possibilities of Dream elevating the entire company to new heights from the main roster vs. Bryan elevating NXT to a glass ceiling was a powerful way to end that I think offsets the flaws I find in his argument.

    While Gangers angled the topic about the main roster's need for genuine stars, mth both agreed and subverted this by saying the most impactful shake-up will involve a trade with NXT. Nailing home that sending a big star to NXT would certainly make an impact gave him a strong start, especially with such a strong choice in Daniel Bryan. He was very thorough in setting up the benefits Bryan would provide to the brand, and probably laid it on a bit thicker than Gangers, which certainly helped with his first post. He came back strong with his second post by turning Gangers arguments about Bryan's lifestyle into positives for his choice, and backing up the idea that some people don't want to leave NXT. In fact, I believe his second post excellently counters everything Gangers threw against Daniel Bryan. He also made a good point about the potential new spots opening from Bryan's departure, as well as the idea that SD doesn't need him.

    I think where Gangers came up short was relying a bit too much on our understanding of Dream rather than selling him with more examples or attention. There may have been too much of a focus on trying to counter the choice of Bryan to NXT, which was a tough sell. He made up for this a bit with countering the general choice of moving a main roster star to NXT, though. Most importantly because I don't think mth countered the choice of Dream very well, which probably comes down to the fact that Dream is so incredible and mth just so happens to be a fan. In that sense, he basically allowed Gangers the opportunity to not promote his choice more. The examples of the outright flops on the main roster pale in comparison to the likes of Dream. And while he made a good point about Nakamura and Asuka, that's a tough comparison because the biggest barrier for them is their nationality and rough English.

    This is tough, but I think ultimately, mth just edges this one out. I think mth did a lot more selling of his choice, and even though he didn't counter Dream well, he didn't have too much to counter. Gangers made a lot of sense in emphasizing the bigger impact Dream to RAW could be, but I don't think he ever fully convinced that Bryan to NXT wouldn't be similar. And the way mth turned most of Gangers points around in his favor really does it. With a third post, Gangers might have won...

    ...but unfortunately for him, mth gets it.
    1 point to mth.

    JUDGE JARROD1983



    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod1983
    A solid showing from both participants here. Both came out with fresh views on why their choice would be best.

    Gangers seemed to have strong points but, honestly, mth blew them out of the water in his second post. Anything Gangers tried to argue mth handled like professional. mth wasted no words in that second post and pretty much set the bar for strongest go home post in this whole competition. Everyone who posts second should view this as a "how to" in our debates here.

    mth moves on in my book.
    1 point to mth.

    JUDGE VIRMICIOUS



    Quote Originally Posted by virmicious
    Judge virm, 1st of his name, deliverer of judgements has reached a verdict.

    After reading both debates, sorting the annuals of time and fact checking cat memes, I can say mth has justified his pick and gets my vote.

    He countered gangers points nicely but made more of an impact to me with his choice and why it would truly shake things up. Nice job to both competitors and an excellent choice by mr. Gangers but his dream came just a touch short of winning.
    In a debate was much closer than the scoreline suggests, @mth beats @Gangers in a clean sweep 4-0. Very good match which many have said was the best of the round.

  16. #16
    I Went To America Gangers's Avatar
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    Well done mth - no arguing with that!

    I felt after reading the debate through that I wasn't sure who I'd vote for if I was a neutral so no surprise to see this. Thanks all, enjoyed it!

  17. #17
    an affront to god mth's Avatar
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    Good work, Gangers, you made a damn fine pick and argued it well.

    Thanks for all the votes and kind words, folks. As I've said elsewhere, I don't always have a lot of confidence about this stuff so it's nice to get some affirmation.

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