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Thread: Wilfred’s Debate Round One Tie - Nash Diesel vs kdestiny (Live from Iowa)

  1. #1
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    Wilfred’s Debate Round One Tie - Nash Diesel vs kdestiny (Live from Iowa)

    @Nash Diesel vs @kdestiny

    BUUURNN IT DOOOOOWN!

    As both our contestants taking part from here from Iowa, we thought it should only be appropriate that we almost make the subject of the question be related to Iowa too! The subject of the question is none other than Iowa’s own Seth Rollins!



    Seth has had a roller-coaster of a past year. He has gone from winning the Royal Rumble last year to capturing the title at last year’s Wrestlemania. After feuding with Corbin and Wyatt plus with fan reaction turning sour, he was eventually turned heel aligning himself with AOP feuding along the way with the likes of Owens, Joe, Big Show and Rey and now he is now tag team champions with Buddy Murphy. He was then eliminated from this year’s Royal Rumble despite drawing number 30 and seemingly (but you never know) out of the Raw title picture for Mania.

    The question now is what’s next for Rollins and Wrestlemania this year? Your task is to choose and build up to who he should face and what match he should have at this year’s Wrestlemania. This can be singles, tag, multi-man elimination or any type of gimmick you want. You must also argue why your choice is stronger and would be more compelling to watch at Wrestlemania than your opponent’s would be.

    RULES:

    - You have 72 hours and 2 posts each in this debate. A maximum word count of 400 words per post will be allowed.

    - All posts must be done within the 72 hour time limit so any posts made after the time limit will not count even if there is in an uneven number of posts at the end.

    - All posts must be staggered. You can't make your next post until the other debater has had their turn.

    - If there is a no-show from anyone after 72 hours, then their opponent who does turn up will automatically advance.

    - No editing of posts allowed. Anything that is posted the first time is what will count so choose your words carefully.

    - Pictures, gifs and videos can be used in literally unlimited amounts to support your point. Information should be self-contained within your post. For example, you can't post a link to an article and expect people to go read it. Quote it in your post.

    The order of posting will be determined by a coin toss. The coin toss has revealed that Nash Diesel will be going first!

    Happy debating!

  2. #2
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    The natural route would be Kevin Owens. This doesn’t feel like a feud that just stops at a random Raw or even Elimination Chamber and the upcoming Saudi show. These are arguably the top 2 guys below Lesnar and Drew on Raw right now, and one has to think that this is essentially a #1 contender’s match to see who goes on to face the winner of Lesnar/Drew for the Spring/Summer of 2020.


    I would use the Saudi show and EC as a way to utilize the other people involved. Maybe we get an 8-man tag in Saudi with Seth’s crew against KO, Joe, and Viking Raiders to keep it fresh but not wasting a singles match (which WWE are so quick to do even for a Mania match). I would also look at doing the Raw match from last night where Joe and KO challenge for the belts at EC, again to keep things fresh enough and not just promo after promo.


    And like I said earlier, this seems to be a “who’s next in line to challenge the champ” type of feud. If Drew wins, we get a solid rivalry from a year or 2 ago on the main event level with the World championship against Seth Rollins. A huge feather in Drew’s cap if he goes over Seth. And I truly believe the WWE are very high on KO, so he could easily be next and give us some great matches and promo segments with Drew.


    WrestleMania also needs a show stealer, and this match has without a shadow of a doubt has the ingredients to make it a great match that will be remembered for years to come. That’s a payoff to an already solid feud that is hard to come by in any era of WWE.

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    Once upon a time... kdestiny's Avatar
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    You could go several ways with the answer to this question, especially given the way the Royal Rumble ended and where things could go from there.

    I wanted to choose the option that would not only give us something fresh, but also gives someone an opportunity to show that they can be a main event player.

    That opponent would be Aleister Black.

    Aleister has decided that he is going to take the fight to everyone rather than wait, which is a perfect set up for a feud with Seth and friends. He was already involved in an altercation with them after being eliminated by nefarious means. Black looked to be on his way to eliminating Seth until Murphy got involved. Murphy wasn’t able to defeat Black on his own, so he will have the bigger brother of the group finish what he started.

    There are a lot of ways they can go about this to keep both guys looking good. I can already see some of the promos leading up to it being very interesting. Maybe having Black bring up when Seth was an intense babyface similar time himself, using Seth’s past to get into his head and play mind games similar to a modern day Undertaker.

    Black also has a past with the Viking Raiders. Perhaps down the line they get their title rematch and AOP starts getting involved but Black comes out with kicks a blazing, it sends Seth into a tizzy to where he loses focus... leaving Buddy to fend for himself and eventually lose. Maybe sew some seeds of tension there to give Seth the idea that maybe he isn’t as in control as he thinks he is.

    There are loads of possibilities in this scenario, but I think most important of all it gives us a new match up to be excited about at Wrestlemania and will feature a nice blending of styles between two of the best in ring workers the company has. It helps someone get to the next level and can continue Seth’s reign as the Messiah as well. I think this is the best possibility Seth and for the company as well.

  4. #4
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Black v. Black? I think that’s a great feud for the summer or even going into 2021 for next year’s Mania. The problem with this match is simple: Timing. The KO-Rollins feud has been given solid tv time, and has been made to feel more important than anything on Raw in the last 2 months. Where do you wrap this feud up that doesn’t feel like it’s on it’s last leg if not WrestleMania? That was a question I asked myself when looking at the upcoming ppvs. And you can’t. Ending it on Raw isn’t happening, ending it at a random Supershow or B-level ppv like Elimination Chamber doesn’t scream “feud ending ppv” for something this big.


    Like I said, you have the promos already proven to be very, very good. Black is not a promo guy. Nobody has really came out and praised his ability to speak so I feel the entertainment value in terms of non-wrestling segments are too much of a mystery. Black is a talented in-ring performer so match quality I’m not concerned about, but I am concerned that he won’t be able to carry his own on the stick. And no offense to the Messiah, but there are more times where I want to shoot myself than listen to him talk. So that’s why KO is a much better adversary going into the biggest ppv of the year. You have the wrestling on point, but then the non-wrestling segments are without a doubt just as good thanks to Kevin. He’s one of if not the best talker in the WWE today and he has massive fan support. More than I can say for Black who is still building his own name and getting more familiar with the fans. Keep in mind, he hasn’t really done anything since last year’s Mania aside from a feud with Cesaro and a lopsided feud with Buddy Murphy.


    I’m not sure I’m buying the WWE is going to kill this huge top tier feud with KO and Seth Rollins in Saudi to do a quick build with Black. If Mania is where the big matches happen, then KO is the guy to be on the other end of the ring with Seth. Maybe next year Black can knock on the door of Seth Freakin’ Rollins when he’s developed more than just a look and a spin kick.

  5. #5
    Once upon a time... kdestiny's Avatar
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    We still have until April to build this feud up. He’s been added into the fray, there is plenty of time to build this up just like every other Wrestlemania match is. You could say KO/Rollins being given so much time thus far could be at its detriment. Their story is already getting. A bit stale as it is so maybe that story needs to end at Fast Lane, especially given the status of Samoa Joe as a possible corner man for KO.

    Aleister Black has the ability to get the job done as far as promos go, of course his knocking on the door story, while weird, isn’t his fault and I think he has made the most of his time.

    I would compare his rise of late to our Royal Rumble winner who will be facing off against Brock at Mania. Why not make this match a reality and see if Black belongs in the main event?

    The story makes sense, he has Buddy’s number in the ring so now he goes to his big brothers to help get the job done.

    I love KO as much as anyone, but do you truly believe that the can keep this feud going for another three months without it getting stale? I don’t, even with his promo ability that would be something that is very hard to do given it’s been nearly two months already.

    Even your point of Mania being a “feud ending ppv” roughly half of the matches at the last five or so Manias have not ended the feud but have continued it, so I consider that a moot point as well.

    The fact that you say that Black is only a look and a spin kick means you haven’t seen what he can do. Now that they’ve pulled the trigger on Drew and let him be more natural, let the reigns off of Black as well. Let him be more like he was in NXT when he had some great feuds with wrestling styles all over the spectrum from Lars Sullivan to Johnny Gargano. He is more than capable of being in a top feud and delivering.



    Imagine a feud with a similar central story, but with the additions of the heavies surrounding Seth. I think it would be magic, and win or lose it would help send Black to the next level which is what I think should be done with Seth at Mania.

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    ROUND OVER!

    Voting commences now, here's how it works:

    - The winner of each tie will be chosen equally from 4 sources. 3 selected judges and a public vote.

    - The 3 selected judges who will PM their votes to Mazer and myself. The judges are @Jarrod1983, @Psycho666Soldier and @virmicious so please send us your votes. Each judge's vote will be worth one point each to the total overall score.

    - The 4th source is a public vote where readers can post in this thread who they felt had the better argument. The combined public vote will count as one point towards the overall score.

    - If there is a 2-2 score in the total score of a tie after all the judging and public voting, then either myself, Mazer or perhaps a mystery judge will be asked to step in and break the tie.

    - All votes must be backed up with solid reasoning. Anyone who just says stuff in their votes like "I voted for Mikey just because his argument was better or I agree with him" will be asked to elaborate on their vote further before it can be counted.

    Voting will be open for 72 hours, same length as the tie.

    VOTE NOW!
    Last edited by Badger; January 28th, 2020 at 3:29 PM.

  7. #7
    75% Insane Rip's Avatar
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    I think a huge part of this debate was influenced by timing, and the draw.

    WWE has done a fair chunk of the groundwork here with their programming having already built the ‘obvious’ Mania match for Seth, his current position and program is quite clearly aimed at a final destination and @Nash did the sensible thing in simply allowing it to roll, he structured his argument well, hit the required marks along the way and didn’t leave any obvious holes. @kdestiny made a good choice, one that I really look forward to seeing down the line, but at this point in time it would have taken a combination of a bad argument from Nash and a phenomenal one from kdest to shift the existing narrative, Nash didn’t make a mistake and kdest was good, but not enough to beat Nash AND the writers room.

    I feel sorry for kdest here, he was on a hiding to nothing, but...

    @Nash Diesel gets my vote.

  8. #8
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    I am going with Nash Diesel. Kdestiny did bring up a good point about how will WWE be able to keep the KO/Rollins feud fresh knowing WWE but ND explained how in his first point. 8 man tags, tag title matches to keep things moving. Like Rip said, this came down to luck of the draw. both did a good job

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    Nash Diesel. He successfully explained why Rollins v Owens needs to go to Mania and showed the difference between that and the Black feud which wouldnt have the star power for that kind of match.

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    I'm going with kdestiny - he had a much harder job to do and I think you have to put yourself in the mindset of ignoring things that make other options totally nonsensical. Otherwise every time there's a question like this and someone already has a trajectory you could basically guarantee yourself a win by just saying 'well this seems to be the plan, so probably do that'. The point is to make a case based on something that would be interesting and entertaining, not just logical based on what we already know.

    I agree that there is plenty of time to parley the current Seth/Joe/Owens stuff into a Seth vs Black feud, wouldn't be too much of a stretch at all especially following the Rumble.

    ND did a fine job too, good match.

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    I have to agree that Nash did a great jop showing that KO has the star power needed, as well as the better promo skills, that Black currently lacks, to deserve a featured match at Mania. kdestiny raised a really good point about their ability to string out the KO feud for 3 more months, since they've already had 2 months, without it getting stale. I also agree with Gangers that kdestiny had a tougher job picking second, as we all want/need to see Owens / Rollins get a satisfying conclusion before we're ready to see anything else for Rollins.

    Since the instructions were to pick the opponent/match, and then to build them up, and to argue why its a better pick than their opponent.

    Even though Nash took the "easy" pick, I think kdestiny did a better job building up Black, especially by including the clip reminding us of Black's NXT work with Gargano. I think if I were in kdestiny's position, I would have gone with Samoa Joe as the preferred Mania opponent for Rollins. But I probably would have lost, too, to both of them. I felt that Nash's arguing why Owens is better than Black comes down to what they've both done, and how good Owens is. kdestiny had a harder job so he rightly focused on how much better Black will be after he gets a high profile feud, and how much better WWE will be once Black is elevated. But I would have though kdestiny would have pointed out that win or lose, Owens won't get any more over than he already is - a main-event caliber face. Similarly, Rollins probably won't look better beating either one of these two, but if Black goes over Rollins, or even if he looks great and comes close, he will be accepted as a main event level guy.

    My vote goes to Nash, but now that their posts are over, once all the votes are in, I'd like to ask kdestiny if he'd have gone with Black if he'd picked first, or would he have taken Owens.

  12. #12
    where.is.dexter? mth's Avatar
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    Voting for kdestiny. ND had a bit of an unfair advantage considering all the parts in place to give him the obvious answer and leverage but kd also pointed out there are some parts in place for his pick as well. But I think ND undid himself by selling Black short saying he's not a promo guy which kd countered by pointing to the "behind the door" promos he's been cutting for months, and that he's just a "look and a kick" which kd countered by pointing to his solid work in NXT. kd also did well to point out that Mania is quite often not a feud ending PPV and that things can bend before/after it and that there's still ample time to wrap up things with Owens and that continuing them for three more months might be overkill.

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    RESULTS

    PUBLIC VOTE - Nash Diesel takes it 4-2 so 1 point to Nash

    JUDGE JARROD1983



    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod1983
    I thought both did a great job in this opening round.

    I liked ND talking about how Black really hasn't done much this year and how the foundation of this Rollins/Owens feud has been laid the last couple months and can build steam through tag matches and great mic work.

    I think kdestiny had good points in that there was a natural story to be told with Black involved with Murphy (now a Seth minion) and with what happened at the Royal Rumble to Black.

    However, quoting kdestiny "Why not make this match a reality and see if Black belongs in the main event". Wrestlemania is not the time to test the waters. ND has a good point about how, down the line in the summer or next year's WM, Black would be in a better posistion to take on Seth.

    Ultimately, I feel Nash Diesel better posistioned Owens as the go to opposition for Seth Rollins at this years Wrestlemania.
    1 point to Nash

    JUDGE PSYCHO666SOLDIER



    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho666Soldier
    This was a well-argued bout to kick off the tournament, and I think both had made some strong points while missing the mark on a couple things.

    At first glance, it feels like Nash has the stronger choice by virtue of having the groundwork laid. And I think he did a wonderful job of backing his choice up. The bit about Owens and Seth being the ingredients for a great in-ring match really resonated with me, and I think he had a strong recurring point about ending the feud anywhere other than WM would be a disservice. I also think pointing out Rollins' occasional weakness on the mic was smart, further emphasizing the importance of Owens' involvement via his mic skills. However, with 2 whole months and 2 big shows to come, Nash's strategy of an 8-man tag and rehashing the Tag Title match didn't sound very fresh considering we've already seen a couple variations of tag matches. I also think his angle on Black's ability to deliver was skewed in a way I couldn't fully agree with.

    kdestiny's biggest attributes come from attacking those two points. His final post really nailed the point that the feud would be fresh with Aleister Black, while putting over that this would be his opportunity to bring that fire and developed involvement we've seen on NXT. I think ND made a good point about Black not fully catching on yet, but I think he's underestimated the crowd's willingness to latch-on once there's something to dig into, and destiny touching on that earned him major points. And on first read-through, the argument that WWE would likely let the feud go stale before it reaches Mania really struck me. Reading over it again, while I was almost more swayed by ND, I have a hard time not being sold by this nail in the coffin.

    I do think his first post didn't clearly paint the picture of his idea of how the feud would go down. And I think destiny's use of Buddy Murphy was a bit detrimental in the sense that his needing Seth and AOP to finish his work makes him look a bit weak. But Nash never attacked this point, so it's hard to use it against destiny on its own.

    Ultimately, kdestiny really convinced me that no matter how we get there, a feud for a WrestleMania match between Black and Rollins would be hype, and compelling, while not running the risk of getting stale, even if it means Owens' involvement is cut short.
    1 point to kdestiny

    JUDGE VIRMICIOUS



    (I picked Judge Philip Banks for you hope that’s cool)

    Quote Originally Posted by virmicious
    After much internal debate I am going to have to go with Nash. He got the hanger and belted it out of the park. Kdest put up a damn good series of posts and had a strong, really strong, debate but it just didn't have quite enough to sway me away from Nash's.

    Great job to both contenders.
    Final point to Nash

    @Nash Diesel takes the all-Iowan Derby 3-1 and advanced to the next round! Unlucky @kdestiny but you’re on the reserves list if anyone drops out this week

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