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Thread: AEW Wednesday Night Dynamite

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    too big to fail Tainted Eclipse's Avatar
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    AEW Wednesday Night Dynamite

    I think it's worth having a separate thread dedicated to the weekly TV show.

    First show tonight. I still think Cody/Samy as first TV match is suspect, but the hype show on TNT last night actually got me excited for it. Hope there's a big moment somewhere tonight.

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    too big to fail Tainted Eclipse's Avatar
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    aew would be VERY smart to strongly encourage fans to bring signs. seeing a crowd full of signs like the attitude era would make an impression for any casual or lapsed fans tuning in.

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    Oh look, fat Ellsworth got his usual front row center seat for AEW too.

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    too big to fail Tainted Eclipse's Avatar
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    fun match so far, super hot crowd.

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    too big to fail Tainted Eclipse's Avatar
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    i hate spanish flys in general but that was one of the better spanish fly spots.

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    too big to fail Tainted Eclipse's Avatar
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    ended up being a very good match. good commentary, awesome crowd, cody feels like a major star. great start to the show.

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    I know it’s not “cool” in modern wrestling to like old, white guys anymore- but right now, Tony “Biggest Night In The History Of Our Sport” Schiavone, Jim Ross, and Excalibur might be the best announce team on TV right now.

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    too big to fail Tainted Eclipse's Avatar
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    when MJF turns on cody it's gonna be a heck of a program.

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    Brandon Cutler is either legit hurt or that finish just sucked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tainted Eclipse View Post
    when MJF turns on cody it's gonna be a heck of a program.
    That or they bring in the rest of MJF’s crew from MLW and make them and Cody into a badass little stable.

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    PAC/Page, the pacing has been weird.

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    too big to fail Tainted Eclipse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VHS View Post
    PAC/Page, the pacing has been weird.
    yeah, really. there was a lot of down time. definitely went too long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VHS View Post
    PAC/Page, the pacing has been weird.
    PAC jacked himself up on that springboard 450 splash. I think he was calling the match and had to really slow it down.

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    I’ve taken dumps bigger than Riho.

    Trans or not, Nyla Rose should eat the kindergarten kid alive.

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    Riho sucks, her offense is like throwing a candy rapper at a brick wall.

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    Is Nyla a heel?

    Riho dropping on you with a double stomp is like a kitten dropping on your belly from the back of the couch.
    Last edited by Spudz Mackenzie; October 2nd, 2019 at 9:28 PM.

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    That was either a great sell or Riho botched a backdrop.

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    End this.

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    women's title match got really hot towards the end. way better than expectations (garbage)

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    Ridiculous

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    Quote Originally Posted by VHS View Post
    End this.
    That really picked up at the end.

    Nyla needs to protect herself more and not give people so much, but on the same token, it’s nice to see a big monster heel willing to bump and feed. She just needs to bump and feed for someone bigger than my dog.

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    too big to fail Tainted Eclipse's Avatar
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    that match had its moments but still didn't inspire confidence in this division

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    That was pretty cringe, that post match shenanigan. Glad she regripped, but damn... way to botch that whole thing up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tainted Eclipse View Post
    that match had its moments but still didn't inspire confidence in this division
    Ring Of Honor made their inaugural Women’s Champion a tiny Japanese woman, too. Must be the thing to do. Meh?

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    So... Kenny Omega vs. Nyla Rose?

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    Cool idea, but Mox put himself through more of that glass table than Omega.

  27. #27
    too big to fail Tainted Eclipse's Avatar
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    DUSTIN!!!!!!!!!!!

  28. #28
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    SWAGGER!!!! ... err... HAGER!!!!

  29. #29
    too big to fail Tainted Eclipse's Avatar
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    i like swagger and think he can be a very good addition to the roster, but it's underwhelming as the big surprise to end the first show.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VHS View Post
    PAC/Page, the pacing has been weird.
    Felt like they had very little chemistry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spudz Mackenzie View Post
    SWAGGER!!!! ... err... HAGER!!!!
    @Donald is going to be a happy man.

  31. #31
    hey Matthew's Avatar
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    decent start

  32. #32
    you either die a hero... Morrison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tainted Eclipse View Post
    i like swagger and think he can be a very good addition to the roster, but it's underwhelming as the big surprise to end the first show.
    i thought the same thing when i heard the rumor, but i liked how they executed it. the table spot with dustin was great.

  33. #33
    too big to fail Tainted Eclipse's Avatar
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    it was a good show. the beginning was great. cody/jericho is over as a big program, cody feels like a big star, moxley/omega angle was good.

    but they could have done better. swagger should have been a mid-show surprise and they should have thought of something more impressive for the end of the show. and they should have announced more stuff to hook you for next week.

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    too big to fail Tainted Eclipse's Avatar
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    they need to go hard after lance archer. would be a big asset.

  35. #35
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    Jack Swagger is their Lex Luger. Yeah...

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tainted Eclipse View Post
    they need to go hard after lance archer. would be a big asset.
    Lance Archer and Davey Boy Smith Jr would really shore up their tag-team division.

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    I've thought about this and Hot Take time:

    For a company that constantly and incessantly and annoyingly brands itself as being "inclusive", by booking trans folks and gay folks and giving fans with mental issues a place to have a super toxic freak out at their shows and all that happy horseshit, not making Nyla Rose their first Women's Champion is a terrible decision. Absolutely God awful. And making Nyla a fucking heel makes me wonder how many monkeys on typewriters it took to come up with that awful decision.

    Because look; Giving Nyla a platform to ply her trade on, on a national level is fantastic. There's never been a trans athlete in wrestling given that level of opportunity. But making her a heel is going to absolutely sink her and its going to create a PR nightmare for AEW.

    You're going to have one of two things happen with heel Nyla Rose. Or, if they're really unlucky, two of two shitty things.

    AEW is going to give a platform, not purposefully mind you, to all the transphobes and pricks that want to make fun of Nyla already. And by making her a heel, they're going to encourage that sort of behavior. Heels work to get booed. They work to get heat. Heat leads to insults and jeers and social media sniping and all manner of bullshit. Don't think for one hot second that Nyla isn't going to get "tranny bitch" and shit like that shouted at her, under the auspices of heel heat. Because her being a heel makes it "okay" to be an asshole toward her. We all know Kenny Olivier and The Young Fucks don't mind breaking kayfabe, but I doubt they'd be so blatant as to ask AEW's fans to boo Nyla "the right way".

    The other thing that's going to kill AEW purely from a PR standpoint is if Nyla decides to play the "angry trans person" character. There's nothing new under the sun, and the "angry black person" gimmick has been done to death. But take that idea, replace being black with being trans, and then replace being angry at white people with being angry at cisgender people, and AEW has a recipe to piss off all the wrestling Twitter SJW's, all the trans-advocacy groups, and every other Goddamn person who might even be a little insulted. If AEW's only trans woman becomes an angry stereotype, AEW look like a bunch of miserable assholes. They look like they're marginalizing their one trans person for the sake of cheap heat. They're not the "forward thinking, "inclusive" company. They're just carny bullshit.

    Nyla Rose, despite what you think of her bell-to-bell, should've won tonight. They should've made her winning a feel good story and trumpeted it as a win for all trans folks and marginalized people. (And yes, I know a tiny, Japanese woman won it. But that's besides the point.) They should have built Nyla up as a fighting champion, made her first long-term feud with Dr. Britt Baker, D.D.S. and after a few months, turned her heel.

    I'm not saying that Nyla Rose can't be a heel, but they need to be very, very careful with the way they let her play her character. Because things could blow up in their faces if they don't.

  38. #38
    too big to fail Tainted Eclipse's Avatar
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    i dont think there are too many people out there who really want to see them overpush a sub par wrestler just so they can pat themselves on the back for PR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tainted Eclipse View Post
    i dont think there are too many people out there who really want to see them overpush a sub par wrestler just so they can pat themselves on the back for PR.
    Probably not, but if they really want to seem like a legit alternative to the WWE, they need to make the wrestling SJW's happy.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudz Mackenzie View Post
    I've thought about this and Hot Take time:

    For a company that constantly and incessantly and annoyingly brands itself as being "inclusive", by booking trans folks and gay folks and giving fans with mental issues a place to have a super toxic freak out at their shows and all that happy horseshit, not making Nyla Rose their first Women's Champion is a terrible decision. Absolutely God awful. And making Nyla a fucking heel makes me wonder how many monkeys on typewriters it took to come up with that awful decision.

    Because look; Giving Nyla a platform to ply her trade on, on a national level is fantastic. There's never been a trans athlete in wrestling given that level of opportunity. But making her a heel is going to absolutely sink her and its going to create a PR nightmare for AEW.

    You're going to have one of two things happen with heel Nyla Rose. Or, if they're really unlucky, two of two shitty things.

    AEW is going to give a platform, not purposefully mind you, to all the transphobes and pricks that want to make fun of Nyla already. And by making her a heel, they're going to encourage that sort of behavior. Heels work to get booed. They work to get heat. Heat leads to insults and jeers and social media sniping and all manner of bullshit. Don't think for one hot second that Nyla isn't going to get "tranny bitch" and shit like that shouted at her, under the auspices of heel heat. Because her being a heel makes it "okay" to be an asshole toward her. We all know Kenny Olivier and The Young Fucks don't mind breaking kayfabe, but I doubt they'd be so blatant as to ask AEW's fans to boo Nyla "the right way".

    The other thing that's going to kill AEW purely from a PR standpoint is if Nyla decides to play the "angry trans person" character. There's nothing new under the sun, and the "angry black person" gimmick has been done to death. But take that idea, replace being black with being trans, and then replace being angry at white people with being angry at cisgender people, and AEW has a recipe to piss off all the wrestling Twitter SJW's, all the trans-advocacy groups, and every other Goddamn person who might even be a little insulted. If AEW's only trans woman becomes an angry stereotype, AEW look like a bunch of miserable assholes. They look like they're marginalizing their one trans person for the sake of cheap heat. They're not the "forward thinking, "inclusive" company. They're just carny bullshit.

    Nyla Rose, despite what you think of her bell-to-bell, should've won tonight. They should've made her winning a feel good story and trumpeted it as a win for all trans folks and marginalized people. (And yes, I know a tiny, Japanese woman won it. But that's besides the point.) They should have built Nyla up as a fighting champion, made her first long-term feud with Dr. Britt Baker, D.D.S. and after a few months, turned her heel.

    I'm not saying that Nyla Rose can't be a heel, but they need to be very, very careful with the way they let her play her character. Because things could blow up in their faces if they don't.
    last week you said she needed to have her rosebuds cut off. i don't wanna hear a fucking thing outta you about any of this shit, you heedless goon.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morrison View Post
    last week you said she needed to have her rosebuds cut off. i don't wanna hear a fucking thing outta you about any of this shit, you heedless goon.
    I can tell a bad joke and still have a strong opinion.

    I'm allowed.

  42. #42
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    This was the first time I actually got to see Nyla do her thing and what I saw tonight was not good at all. As big as she is and as menacing as she's been hyped up to be... her offense looked weak against Riho. She did hit a sick DVD, but that was it. That was all. She's ploddingly slow and telegraphed everything 2 seconds before she did it. She could barely lift Riho and it resulted in a botch. She nearly dropped what's his face on his head and she was barely able to land a power bomb on him.

    And Riho... lord almighty. I know she's been doing this since she was a kid, but she flat out stinks. Everything she does in unconvincing from her strikes to her knees. Her doing a superplex against Nyla was retarded.

    And Britt Baker sounded bored at the booth. Sound like you're a part of something special, you generic mannequin.

    Everybody came out of that looking like shit.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudz Mackenzie View Post
    I've thought about this and Hot Take time:

    For a company that constantly and incessantly and annoyingly brands itself as being "inclusive", by booking trans folks and gay folks and giving fans with mental issues a place to have a super toxic freak out at their shows and all that happy horseshit, not making Nyla Rose their first Women's Champion is a terrible decision. Absolutely God awful. And making Nyla a fucking heel makes me wonder how many monkeys on typewriters it took to come up with that awful decision.

    Because look; Giving Nyla a platform to ply her trade on, on a national level is fantastic. There's never been a trans athlete in wrestling given that level of opportunity. But making her a heel is going to absolutely sink her and its going to create a PR nightmare for AEW.

    You're going to have one of two things happen with heel Nyla Rose. Or, if they're really unlucky, two of two shitty things.

    AEW is going to give a platform, not purposefully mind you, to all the transphobes and pricks that want to make fun of Nyla already. And by making her a heel, they're going to encourage that sort of behavior. Heels work to get booed. They work to get heat. Heat leads to insults and jeers and social media sniping and all manner of bullshit. Don't think for one hot second that Nyla isn't going to get "tranny bitch" and shit like that shouted at her, under the auspices of heel heat. Because her being a heel makes it "okay" to be an asshole toward her. We all know Kenny Olivier and The Young Fucks don't mind breaking kayfabe, but I doubt they'd be so blatant as to ask AEW's fans to boo Nyla "the right way".

    The other thing that's going to kill AEW purely from a PR standpoint is if Nyla decides to play the "angry trans person" character. There's nothing new under the sun, and the "angry black person" gimmick has been done to death. But take that idea, replace being black with being trans, and then replace being angry at white people with being angry at cisgender people, and AEW has a recipe to piss off all the wrestling Twitter SJW's, all the trans-advocacy groups, and every other Goddamn person who might even be a little insulted. If AEW's only trans woman becomes an angry stereotype, AEW look like a bunch of miserable assholes. They look like they're marginalizing their one trans person for the sake of cheap heat. They're not the "forward thinking, "inclusive" company. They're just carny bullshit.

    Nyla Rose, despite what you think of her bell-to-bell, should've won tonight. They should've made her winning a feel good story and trumpeted it as a win for all trans folks and marginalized people. (And yes, I know a tiny, Japanese woman won it. But that's besides the point.) They should have built Nyla up as a fighting champion, made her first long-term feud with Dr. Britt Baker, D.D.S. and after a few months, turned her heel.

    I'm not saying that Nyla Rose can't be a heel, but they need to be very, very careful with the way they let her play her character. Because things could blow up in their faces if they don't.
    Bit of an odd take but I see your point.

    I will say if she had won the backlash would be just as bad and you'd get the same transphobes doing transphobe stuff.

    I think the biggest thing AEW has done in regards to helping the LGBT community here is that they haven't booked Nyla as a transwoman. I'm not entirely sure because I still haven't seen all out but I don't even think they've ever mentioned on a live show she's trans. It's not a part of her character, she's just Nyla, a monster heel. I also think that kind of saves AEW when a segment of their fans do say and do hateful shit. Also... Those fans were always going to do that regardless of Nyla's heel/face alignment. AEW has treated Nyla as nothing but a woman and I don't see them changing that at all.

  44. #44
    too big to fail Tainted Eclipse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudz Mackenzie View Post
    Probably not, but if they really want to seem like a legit alternative to the WWE, they need to make the wrestling SJW's happy.
    no they don't. they can be a legit alternative to WWE while entirely ignoring this small constituency.

  45. #45
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    This is my first time seeing AEW outside of a match here and there. Right out of the gate, AEW looks legit. They have a great production look, their intro has POWER and is fun, the set looks good and the dark features really add to the feel of being a darker show and not colorful and bright like Raw. Cody feels like a big deal and that opening match was good. Only problem I have is one too many big moves only getting two counts, but that's the way it is nowadays.

    Commentary was GOLDEN. I've always loved JR and I've always been a big fan of Tony Schiovane. His voice was greatly missed on my television. And I must say, I like that both of them are genre savvy enough to scold the wrestlers about posing for the crowd or taking too much time after a big move.

    Women's championship match was better than I thought it would be. I agree, Riho looks like a kitten and shouldn't be able to beat most competitors, let alone someone as big and strong as Nyla Rose. But I think that the commentary sold how she has the experience edge was a plus. I think the crowd will get behind her because she's plucky. For some reason, I'm thinking that false three was actually a mistake and they rolled with it. If it was by design, it was a great idea because that is what got the crowd really into the match. I'm glad Nakazowa didn't get his neck broken in that powerbomb spot. Now that made me cringe.

    Moxley and Omega and the fighting in the crowd was great. That table spot was a great throwback to the more "dangerous" era. And if they limit those spots to a few, then they will still feel special and dangerous.

    That ending with Jack "not" Swagger was good also. I always thought he got kind of a bad shake in WWE, and I liked his stuff in Lucha Underground, so I'm glad he's working with AEW now. Also, seems the "we the people" chant is something that is going to follow him from now on. I wonder how the WWE will feel about that. Not that they can control what a crowd chants.


    Speaking of Lucha Underground, I guess they're done now since I've seen a good amount of their stars on not only here, but Impact the other night.


    I had more, but lost it. All in all, this show needs to be on Monday. They have the energy, momentum, and production to give Raw a run for its money on a head to head. I understand why they didn't, but damn, if you were to compare this show to what I saw outside of the first hour of Raw, it is like night and day in terms of entertainment to me.

  46. #46
    you either die a hero... Morrison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudz Mackenzie View Post
    I can tell a bad joke and still have a strong opinion.

    I'm allowed.
    yeah, of course you can say some intolerant bullshit you thought was clever and still have a strongly unaware and oblivious opinion on a matter. live the fucking dream and all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spudz Mackenzie
    Fucking trannies these days have to make the world so fucking complicated.

    Here, let's break it down for you, so you fuckers get it:

    If you're born with a penis, you're a man. Go piss in the fucking men's room. Change in the men's locker room. If you want to sit down to pee? Fine. Nobody's going to care. They'll think your're taking a dump. And you'll make a lot less women scared than you would if you "identified as a woman" and whipped out your Johnson (not your "Jenny") to get changed in a gym or at the pool.

    If you're born with a vagina, you're a woman. Get this through your head. You can be as masculine as you want, but you shouldn't want to spend time in the men's room. I'm a guy. Trust me; the average men's room is fucking terrifying. You'll smell things you'll wish you'd never smelled. I don't even want to go in there. Also, change with the women at the gym or the pool or whatever. If you go and change in the men's lockers you're just going to have a bunch of half-naked gym rats hitting on your or trying to check you out. Unless that's what you want? I don't know.

    Guys; if you can't hack it in men's sports, don't become a woman to try it in theirs. Women already have a hard enough time getting their sports to be taken seriously. You have a biological advantage being an ex-man (not an X-Man, but that would be pretty cool, too) and its basically cheating.

    Ladies; Stick with your own sports. Becoming a man, injecting yourself with testosterone is basically like taking steroids. And that's basically cheating. So, yeah, stick with your own shit.

    Everybody: When you're not in the crapper, the locker room, or playing professional sports, be the best damn you you want to be. I don't fucking care if you've got a dick, a vag, or sixteen cans of Pringles up there. I don't care if you're a man who wants to be a woman, a woman who wants to be a man, or a man and a woman combined in some terrible industrial solvent accident who wants to be a samurai Abraham Lincoln.

    Just stop making fucking bathrooms, sports, and locker rooms so fucking complicated, you big bunch of weirdos. Be trannies in your personal time, but when you're out in front of normal people, just be whatever's in your damn pants.
    you made that post within this calendar year, and made a point to tell everyone you weren't trying to be funny with it. so fucking excuse me for not just accepting your shitty attempt at humor or your insane rant about what it means to be inclusive at face value. cause, like, i fucking know better.

  47. #47
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    Just got back from watching both. It's my 2nd time watching AEW's product and i'm just blown away and super excited to what the future holds. As much as I enjoyed both shows, AEW's was the victor of the two in my opinon. I'm not familiar with a lot of the wrestlers but they all impressed me. There was not a match where I wasn't interested from start to finish. Just hope they can start to build some solid storylines instead of just doing the cliche interrupt debut like theyve been doing (Moxley, LAX, now Swagger) and build some solid debuts and teasers through-out the weeks.

    It feels strangely good to be a wrestling fan again, my week seems to be packed with shows to watch.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morrison View Post
    yeah, of course you can say some intolerant bullshit you thought was clever and still have a strongly unaware and oblivious opinion on a matter. live the fucking dream and all that.



    you made that post within this calendar year, and made a point to tell everyone you weren't trying to be funny with it. so fucking excuse me for not just accepting your shitty attempt at humor or your insane rant about what it means to be inclusive at face value. cause, like, i fucking know better.
    In that same thread I also apologized for making that post and admitted that, upon thinking about it, I approached the issue from a place of negativity and was arguing in bad faith. I admitted I was wrong. But you don't bother with that. I didn't delete or edit that post, not because I'm proud of it or I still think I'm right, but because I want it to stand as an example of a terrible argument against trans people.

  49. #49
    you either die a hero... Morrison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudz Mackenzie View Post
    In that same thread I also apologized for making that post and admitted that, upon thinking about it, I approached the issue from a place of negativity and was arguing in bad faith. I admitted I was wrong. But you don't bother with that. I didn't delete or edit that post, not because I'm proud of it or I still think I'm right, but because I want it to stand as an example of a terrible argument against trans people.
    you apologized after going nuts and posting a bunch of transphobic memes and getting banned. you apologized four days after that post i just quoted. i didn't bother including that, cause it was a soulless, canned apology. in the apology itself you said you were trying to express your personal beliefs on the issue, so if you remove the shit attempt at humor(seems all you ever can make are shit attempts), you're still left with intolerant bullshit opinions. and then you wanna try and talk about what AEW should be doing to be inclusive. miss me with that horseshit. just cause you are allowed to have a strong opinion doesn't mean you ever should.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morrison View Post
    you apologized after going nuts and posting a bunch of transphobic memes and getting banned. you apologized four days after that post i just quoted. i didn't bother including that, cause it was a soulless, canned apology. in the apology itself you said you were trying to express your personal beliefs on the issue, so if you remove the shit attempt at humor(seems all you ever can make are shit attempts), you're still left with intolerant bullshit opinions. and then you wanna try and talk about what AEW should be doing to be inclusive. miss me with that horseshit. just cause you are allowed to have a strong opinion doesn't mean you ever should.
    Nah bro, it was a true apology. I was just working through some anti-trans biases.

    If you don't like my attempts at being funny, that's fine. But don't try to paint me as some kind of transphobe monster when I just tried to make a bad dick joke/word pun about Nyla and her "buds". Its harmless stuff.

  51. #51
    you either die a hero... Morrison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudz Mackenzie View Post
    Nah bro, it was a true apology. I was just working through some anti-trans biases.

    If you don't like my attempts at being funny, that's fine. But don't try to paint me as some kind of transphobe monster when I just tried to make a bad dick joke/word pun about Nyla and her "buds". Its harmless stuff.
    fuck off with what you think is harmless.

    in your apology you say you were just trying to be funny and express your personal beliefs, yet when JP shits on you for what he assumed was you trying to be funny directly after your original rant, you got offended, told him to fuck off and said you werent trying to be funny, you were trying to prove a point. fuck outta here.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morrison View Post
    fuck off with what you think is harmless.

    in your apology you say you were just trying to be funny and express your personal beliefs, yet when JP shits on you for what he assumed was you trying to be funny directly after your original rant, you got offended, told him to fuck off and said you werent trying to be funny, you were trying to prove a point. fuck outta here.
    I re-read my own apology post and I meant every bit of it. Hell, I'd even been back in that thread to discuss more on the issue and I've had nothing but civilized conversations with folks there since that point.

    You're the only one who's calling me out, and its for no good reason. Lay off.

  53. #53
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    and what im trying to paint you as is someone who didn't know what the fuck they were talking about nine months ago, and doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about right now. I'm saying that a dude who had those thoughts about the bathroom debate nine months ago, and who is making dick jokes about a trans person within the last week, still ain't got the deftness of perception and understanding to be weighing in on AEW's approach to inclusivity. go ahead and form your strong opinions, but it's already been shown that you probably shouldn't be so fucking gung ho about these opinions when you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spudz Mackenzie View Post
    I re-read my own apology post and I meant every bit of it. Hell, I'd even been back in that thread to discuss more on the issue and I've had nothing but civilized conversations with folks there since that point.

    You're the only one who's calling me out, and its for no good reason. Lay off.
    hahaha, no good reason my ass.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morrison View Post
    and what im trying to paint you as is someone who didn't know what the fuck they were talking about nine months ago, and doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about right now. I'm saying that a dude who had those thoughts about the bathroom debate nine months ago, and who is making dick jokes about a trans person within the last week, still ain't got the deftness of perception and understanding to be weighing in on AEW's approach to inclusivity. go ahead and form your strong opinions, but it's already been shown that you probably shouldn't be so fucking gung ho about these opinions when you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
    I know exactly what I'm talking about. I might not be an expert on trans issues or whatever, but I know my shit when it comes to pro-wrestling. And this isn't a trans issue. Its a pro-wrestling issue. I don't trust any wrestling company to get a heel trans woman right without pissing off a legion of trans fans, SJW's, their sponsors, or management. I don't trust a wrestling company to book a trans heel and not still protect their own image by stopping transphobes from doing transphobic shit.

    Its not about toilets. Its booking. We're in a wrestling thread discussing a wrestling show.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordo View Post
    Bit of an odd take but I see your point.

    I will say if she had won the backlash would be just as bad and you'd get the same transphobes doing transphobe stuff.

    I think the biggest thing AEW has done in regards to helping the LGBT community here is that they haven't booked Nyla as a transwoman. I'm not entirely sure because I still haven't seen all out but I don't even think they've ever mentioned on a live show she's trans. It's not a part of her character, she's just Nyla, a monster heel. I also think that kind of saves AEW when a segment of their fans do say and do hateful shit. Also... Those fans were always going to do that regardless of Nyla's heel/face alignment. AEW has treated Nyla as nothing but a woman and I don't see them changing that at all.
    AEW never mentioned it on TV, but its all over their social media. Its not a secret. I'm not saying it should be, either.

    AEW is the wrestling company created because a bunch of hipster twats wanted to have a Superkick Party and create an alternative to the WWE. And they found a sucker with a bunch of money and a TV station with a spot for them.

    They might put on a good show, but that's what got them there.

  56. #56
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    Spudz, I totally understand what you're saying bro. Although I wouldn't really call it an issue... but I know where you're heading. The bottom line is: the fans aren't going to take any mind to Nyla being a heel because we're all smartened up here. No wrestling fan in their right and logical mind is going to see AEW booking a big tough trans woman and get pissed off. They're just not. Because they're already proud that she's there. If you're trans and you're watching tonight's AEW, then you're already a pretty devoted wrestling fan and you know what's up.

    AEW has done a pretty good job of establishing open arms to all orientations. In today's landscape where everybody is super humble and double handshaking the opportunities they have... nobody cares if so and so is booked as a heel or face. They see Nyla powerbomb a puppy in the ring, they'll still cry happy tears that she's in that ring as a trans person representing trans people.

    Second bottom line... nobody is going to be upset.

  57. #57
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    AEW is treating Nyla AS a WOMAN

    Not a TRANS WOMAN

    So she should, and is, able to be a Heel

  58. #58
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    I'll give things the benefit of the doubt, I guess.

    I just foresee some ways it could all go sideways. Hopefully it doesn't.

    That’s why it’s a “hot take”. Hot takes aren’t always the best thought out opinions.
    Last edited by Spudz Mackenzie; October 3rd, 2019 at 1:54 AM.

  59. #59
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    brazil
    Good start. The show had good energy with good action throughout and felt like a more traditional pro-wrestling show which I love. Reminded me of WCW TV from the good old days. "With TV time remaining", Omega coming out to help Riho because he was probably hanging around near the curtain getting ready for his match and he's a babyface so why wouldn't he come to her aid?, Sammy Guevara coming back at the end rather than just being forgotten. It's little touches like that which give me confidence in this show moving forward. Announce team were solid and felt a lot more legit than what we've had on Raw and Smackdown for years. I like Hager as part of Team Jericho and I was thrilled to see Dustin getting involved. Decent group of talent that look like stars now. Unfortunately there's still a handful that look quite bush league.

    World: Jericho/Cody
    Moxley/Omega
    Bucks/LAX
    Dustin/Hager
    Hangman/PAC
    Tag: SCU/Lucha Bros
    Womens: Riho/Rose/Baker
    PP/Angelico & Evans

    Seems a pretty strong card for the next PPV. Maybe something like MJF, Guevara and Spears vs. the three deathmatch guys too.

  60. #60
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    Apparently, Kenny Omega is the shoot agent for all the women's stuff on the show.

    I wonder if they'll bring that up on the air at some point?

  61. #61
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    Didn’t know Nyla was trans until I read this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StevieV View Post
    Didn’t know Nyla was trans until I read this thread.
    You and me both.

    And now that I know, I feel the exact same. She is awesome!

  63. #63
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    I caught the first 2 matches. I liked the way the show looked. First 2 matches were good. My best friend is DVRing it since I don't have cable but for some reason it recorded the replay instead so we caught the tail end with Swagger, which to be honest without seeing the rest of the show was probably the cringe moment that soured me on the show. I think the guy is extremely monotone both in entertainment and wrestling value. To me that was just like, come on AEW you can do better than be TNA 2.0 picking up the scraps of WWE.

    With all of that said, I can't wait to watch everything else and continue watching. Jim Ross and Tony Schiavone working together was very solid and Excalibur always done a pretty decent job. I like that it wasn't so much "this guy is color, this is play by play, this guy is for laughs" It felt like 3 people calling a match without needing to be defined the way Vince does it.

  64. #64
    you either die a hero... Morrison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudz Mackenzie View Post
    I'll give things the benefit of the doubt, I guess.

    I just foresee some ways it could all go sideways. Hopefully it doesn't.

    That’s why it’s a “hot take”. Hot takes aren’t always the best thought out opinions.
    almost every single thing you post isnt well thought out

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    As a whole, I thought the show was very entertaining. The production was pretty good, with some minor weird stuff along the way, but I thought they transitioned to things fairly well. This was, by far, the best outing for JR for AEW. He wasn't doing his grumpy man yelling at a cloud bit that he's done over the course of the PPVs so this was refreshing. Schiavone was REALLY good for his role. I thought he was great so the MLW stuff he's been doing had him ready to go for this.

    The women's division still feels generally flat. I thought they did a nice job putting over the match itself but I'm not sure the match itself was that good.

    I didn't get why the finish of the six-man went on after Moxley came out. The ref clearly was in the line of sight of the attack and commentary really did question why the match was still going on. That kind of lost me for the remainder of that match. That had to be the biggest screw-up of the entire evening. It made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    From an overall optics standpoint, especially compared to the reveal NXT had at the start, I don't know if Hager is really that big of a meter mover. The crowd definitely ate it up but I'm not sure if I'm that motivated to see what he specifically has to offer.

    They didn't do a good job at all at promoting what is coming up for next week.

    All in all, there were some flat or confusing moments but it was a pretty entertaining show. Have to see how long they can keep things going.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morrison View Post
    almost every single thing you post isnt well thought out
    Here we go......

  67. #67
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    brazil
    Oh yeah, Moxley not causing a DQ right in front of the ref was dumb. Jericho and co stood tall at the end of the show so I don't think he needed the win. Should've just done a DQ or called it a no contest.

    Also not sure about Schiavone bringing up wrestling being back on TNT after 18 years a couple of times and then referring to Nitro as "our old show". I mean, we know what he meant, but it did make it sound a bit like AEW is the continuation of WCW or something.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by BGMaverick View Post
    As a whole, I thought the show was very entertaining. The production was pretty good, with some minor weird stuff along the way, but I thought they transitioned to things fairly well. This was, by far, the best outing for JR for AEW. He wasn't doing his grumpy man yelling at a cloud bit that he's done over the course of the PPVs so this was refreshing. Schiavone was REALLY good for his role. I thought he was great so the MLW stuff he's been doing had him ready to go for this.

    The women's division still feels generally flat. I thought they did a nice job putting over the match itself but I'm not sure the match itself was that good.

    I didn't get why the finish of the six-man went on after Moxley came out. The ref clearly was in the line of sight of the attack and commentary really did question why the match was still going on. That kind of lost me for the remainder of that match. That had to be the biggest screw-up of the entire evening. It made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    From an overall optics standpoint, especially compared to the reveal NXT had at the start, I don't know if Hager is really that big of a meter mover. The crowd definitely ate it up but I'm not sure if I'm that motivated to see what he specifically has to offer.

    They didn't do a good job at all at promoting what is coming up for next week.

    All in all, there were some flat or confusing moments but it was a pretty entertaining show. Have to see how long they can keep things going.
    ref's discretion. doesn't want to end the main event of their first show on a DQ less than five minutes into the match. commentary brought up referees discretion as a thing during the woman's title match when nyla started messing around with chairs, so they established it, but they probably should've addressed it again after moxley interfered.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudz Mackenzie View Post
    giving fans with mental issues a place to have a super toxic freak out at their shows
    such a nice way to talk about autistic kids

    what a scumbag

  70. #70
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    show looked good, aesthetically. pyro was a bit shit here and there, but it was a nice change of pace.

    camera work/production was way better than at their PPVs. not really many missed spots or hiccups.

    show flowed fairly well. matches were good and not a lot of filler.

    Hager appearing wasn't huge to me either, but i do like the inclusion. a lot of players that can be going for the gold. he already looks like more of a formidable foe than say... Adam Page

    lack of jimmy havoc was a plus as well

    7.2

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morrison View Post
    ref's discretion. doesn't want to end the main event of their first show on a DQ less than five minutes into the match. commentary brought up referees discretion as a thing during the woman's title match when nyla started messing around with chairs, so they established it, but they probably should've addressed it again after moxley interfered.
    That's fine but to me, I think that gives NJPW vibes and not the good kind. The refs are easily one of the most annoying things with lack of consistency with NJPW so I don't want that to trickle to AEW. It feels like they dropped the ball to that extent for that specific instance. Prior to last night's show, JR seemed to be a stickler for the referees and things of that nature so it created a disconnect for me when they really didn't bring it up for your main event.

    Another thing that was weird but minor: Cody was awfully quick to shake Sammy's hand after he tried to use and ultimately hurt Cody's wife to win a match. I understood it built for the finish of the night but that was a little silly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo View Post
    Oh yeah, Moxley not causing a DQ right in front of the ref was dumb. Jericho and co stood tall at the end of the show so I don't think he needed the win. Should've just done a DQ or called it a no contest.

    Also not sure about Schiavone bringing up wrestling being back on TNT after 18 years a couple of times and then referring to Nitro as "our old show". I mean, we know what he meant, but it did make it sound a bit like AEW is the continuation of WCW or something.
    I don't think anyone thinks it's a continuation of WCW. None of the wrestlers are the same and it's a different name and Jim Ross is there. If you are watching AEW for the first time, I'd imagine even the casual fans know WWE bought WCW.

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    Awesome show. We can nitpick but that was great.

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    I haven't been that taken by any of the AEW shows up until this point, so I wasn't really expecting that much.

    One of the main problems for me on previous shows has been the commentary, especially JR, who I felt was going through the motions. Well not anymore, the commentary last night was the best in any major wrestling show I've seen in years. JR was JR again, Schiavone played his role to perfection and it was by far and away the best I've ever heard from Excalibur.

    The look, the feel, the structure, it just connected in a way I wasn't expecting.

    It helped that the first match was out of this world and featured my new favourtie wrestler in Sammy Guevara (I swear down, if any of you even look at him I WILL CUT YOU!).

    Everything on the show had a purpose, nothing felt boring or not given the correct attention.

    Some people will gripe about the logic failings, and I can understand why. But when something is so entertaining, it becomes easier to forgive those failings.

    The main event and fallout were magnificent. That DDT through the table was ridiculous. The pops for Dustin and Hager were deafening.

    It felt right. It's obviously what they were aiming for, and constantly alluding to, but it felt like when Nitro was great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spudz Mackenzie View Post
    But don't try to paint me as some kind of transphobe monster when I just tried to make a bad dick joke/word pun about Nyla and her "buds". Its harmless stuff.
    It's not harmless, at all.

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    Typically, this doesn’t appear to be on ITV Hub yet...

    ‘Technical issues’. Oh dear.

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    Full viewership figures not available yet but percentage shares enough to say AEW won in the ratings bigly

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    It's fair game on Nyla Rose. Her response to someone saying something stupid like Spudz said was insinuating the person was possibly molested by their father.

    Neither one is something to joke about. It's 2019.

    Fact is, Nyla Rose fucking sucks anyway but so does Jack Swagger, regardless if they both have their "buds" or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tainted Eclipse View Post
    Full viewership figures not available yet but percentage shares enough to say AEW won in the ratings bigly
    I think it says a lot when we're jacked up about a war between, not AEW and WWE, but AEW and the 3rd brand which serves mainly as developmental.

    I promise you, now that we've seen what the WWE are willing to do for NXT per last night's 2 big returns, get ready motherfuckers.

    But we also have to understand the reality. Just like back in the day, people thought it was like 10 million wrestling fans every Monday. No, it was mostly people bouncing back and forth. I would imagine due to the way we watch t.v. now, especially with NXT being available the very next day in it's entirety on the Network, that a lot of people wanted to watch AEW's debut firsthand and then will go back and watch NXT later.

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    Nyla Rose is just not that good in the ring or on the mic imo..

    Solid start for AEW! let's hope this AEW vs. NXT thing continues to build bigger and we get the best out of both brands! I'm curious to see where they go with this Jericho angle.. if it's an actual stable or just the heels coming together on the first show to draw a line in the sand between faces and heels of the company moving forward.

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    I would honestly be incredibly surprised if AEW didn't outdraw NXT in the ratings. It should. It was the first week and it was advertised like crazy. Not Fox/Smackdown crazy but strong for them. That said, it's probably going to be around half (I'm guessing) what a typical Raw and/or Smackdown gets. NXT is serving its purpose right now by presenting a good alternative for WWE-proper programming AND running something that undercuts the max number AEW could get. It's probably a general win for everyone involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BGMaverick View Post
    I would honestly be incredibly surprised if AEW didn't outdraw NXT in the ratings. It should. It was the first week and it was advertised like crazy. Not Fox/Smackdown crazy but strong for them. That said, it's probably going to be around half (I'm guessing) what a typical Raw and/or Smackdown gets. NXT is serving its purpose right now by presenting a good alternative for WWE-proper programming AND running something that undercuts the max number AEW could get. It's probably a general win for everyone involved.
    I agree with all of this.

    And I'm not even trying to be negative, we're 1 tv show in with AEW. A year from now who knows where they will be. For a first show, very impressive.

    I'll be honest, it look very similar to how the WWE shoots their live shows especially the angles for in-ring action. Tony Schivaone as the new Mean Gene is cool and I hope he sticks around.

    But Jack Swagger..........I just can't get over that as I feel it really took away from a promising star only for me to think great, another promotion dumpster diving for former WWE talent. And I get it, the WWE is the Galactus of pro wrestling, eating up everything and most known talent, in and out of the wrestling bubble, over the last 20 years have worked for the WWE in some capacity. I just wish it wasn't so desperate on AEW's part.

    Who's next? Eugene?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I agree with all of this.

    And I'm not even trying to be negative, we're 1 tv show in with AEW. A year from now who knows where they will be. For a first show, very impressive.

    I'll be honest, it look very similar to how the WWE shoots their live shows especially the angles for in-ring action. Tony Schivaone as the new Mean Gene is cool and I hope he sticks around.

    But Jack Swagger..........I just can't get over that as I feel it really took away from a promising star only for me to think great, another promotion dumpster diving for former WWE talent. And I get it, the WWE is the Galactus of pro wrestling, eating up everything and most known talent, in and out of the wrestling bubble, over the last 20 years have worked for the WWE in some capacity. I just wish it wasn't so desperate on AEW's part.

    Who's next? Eugene?
    There's a framework there within their show that suggests it can be viable or sustainable. They've got talent and even didn't really delve into their presumed strength or calling card for the company: tag team wrestling. They had a six-man tag, but it really wasn't the general framework because they're focused on their tournament after this week.

    They'll need to figure out the right balance of wrestling and talking. Nobody has figured that out yet so I'm not expecting them to but maybe the better calibration is humor versus aggressive promos.

    The Hager stuff just didn't do anything for me. Like I said, optics wise, Hager versus the two separate reveals NXT had and you can't say with a straight face that Hager's appearance was as strong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gampo View Post
    Nyla Rose is just not that good in the ring or on the mic imo..
    Twitter folks were saying it's like Awesome Kong vs. Gail Kim... and it was more like a poor woman's version of a poor woman's version of that.

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    Well I thought it was a decent enough start but nothing amazing. Its early doors, theyve got a lot of building to do and a few things to iron out but it was good enough.

    Cody v Sammy was fine though thr Brandy thing in the middle didnt make a lot of sense to me. Cody watching his wife get pushed into danger and then laughing about it was weird then you had Brandy attack sammy for a false finish which made that whole segment of the match pointless. Then afterwards Codys happy enough to shake Sammys hand. Made no sense but othet than that the match was decent enough.

    MJF v Cutler was basically a way to give some shine to MJF. Finish was weird, dunno if it was a botch or a legit injury. Wasnt much of a match but wasnt meant to be, Im fine with them giving MJF some time to shine.

    Page v Neville was enjoyable, the pacing was off but I think they could have a good match once theyve been in together a few times. Think thats been a problem for AEW so far, wrestlers arent used to each other and nonhouse shows so you get botches, pacing being out etc, that shouod improve over time though. Neville is a great edition to the roster and hopefully gets pushed as a main eventer, hes been booked great so far. Page not so much, hes new to a lot of people, he needs a few wins over jobber to rebuild already.

    Nyka v Rio had a good end but Im not really rating either off them as yet and dont think they got the right women for the first title match. Crowd got into it though so thats a plus. Cant see Riho getting much traction as champ.

    Six Man Tag was a cluster fuck. Was this no DQ? or did the ref not care that Moxley came in and attacked Omega in front of him? Good way to build their feud but that just seemed off. Having Santana and Ortiz show up on the PPV ruined the surprise in this one. Swagger isnt really gonna bring you a lot of buzz but Im happy tonsee him back and if he can do any better with a fresh build.

    Was that meant to be some sort of stable forming or just random heels?

    Anyway Id give it a 7/10, was enjoyable but lots to improve on.

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    The show debuted with 1,409,000 viewers.
    Week one on NXT debuted with 1,179,000 viewers.

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    I'm reading a lot of people talking about the end with Moxley showing up attacking Omega.

    Can we maybe assume that the rules might be a little more relaxed in this promotion? ECW had DQ's and countouts, but they were very and far between.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I'm reading a lot of people talking about the end with Moxley showing up attacking Omega.

    Can we maybe assume that the rules might be a little more relaxed in this promotion? ECW had DQ's and countouts, but they were very and far between.
    Relaxed doesn't jive if the mantra is that wins and losses matter. The rules have to be the rules if they're going to matter. It feels like a dissonance that cheapens something you had as a major selling point.

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    1.4 MILL, right on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BGMaverick View Post
    The show debuted with 1,409,000 viewers.
    Week one on NXT debuted with 1,179,000 viewers.
    Good numbers for the premier. It will be interesting if and how much it drops by in the next month. Once everything levels out and the hype wears out for both AEW and NXT, I wonder what the magic number is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BGMaverick View Post
    Relaxed doesn't jive if the mantra is that wins and losses matter. The rules have to be the rules if they're going to matter. It feels like a dissonance that cheapens something you had as a major selling point.
    Well, what are AEW's rules? Wins and losses can still matter. I mean shit, I'm only saying they're relaxed because everyone seems to be basing their "rules" on the WWE. Which even they have matches where they'll allow certain things to happen like fighting out in the crowd and the count magically stops lol.

    The rules to my knowledge have not been established in great detail and really when you think about it, what promotion in wrestling history has ever truly 100% followed their own rules in graphic detail? I'd say none lol. And again, some promotions have different rules. TNA had a rule where you could win the World title on a DQ or countout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    Well, what are AEW's rules? Wins and losses can still matter. I mean shit, I'm only saying they're relaxed because everyone seems to be basing their "rules" on the WWE. Which even they have matches where they'll allow certain things to happen like fighting out in the crowd and the count magically stops lol.

    The rules to my knowledge have not been established in great detail and really when you think about it, what promotion in wrestling history has ever truly 100% followed their own rules in graphic detail? I'd say none lol. And again, some promotions have different rules. TNA had a rule where you could win the World title on a DQ or countout.
    It seems like they're very insistent on trying to book to avoid DQs because they want definitive finishes. The only real instances I can remember on previous AEW events involve Brandi (either in a match herself or she's ringside) where she was involved in acts that should have been DQs but the ref didn't see it. While I get what you're saying, I think it's general common sense that the people running this company work under the presumption that a 3-on-3 match is compromised and a DQ is worth calling when a 7th person comes in, in sight of the referee, and attacks one of the six performers...eventually doing a brainbuster on a glass table lol.

    You're providing an alternative perspective which is fine and has some merit but based on reviews I've listened to and read, your stance is in the minority of questioning why this wasn't a blatant DQ.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BGMaverick View Post
    It seems like they're very insistent on trying to book to avoid DQs because they want definitive finishes. The only real instances I can remember on previous AEW events involve Brandi (either in a match herself or she's ringside) where she was involved in acts that should have been DQs but the ref didn't see it. While I get what you're saying, I think it's general common sense that the people running this company work under the presumption that a 3-on-3 match is compromised and a DQ is worth calling when a 7th person comes in, in sight of the referee, and attacks one of the six performers...eventually doing a brainbuster on a glass table lol.

    You're providing an alternative perspective which is fine and has some merit but based on reviews I've listened to and read, your stance is in the minority of questioning why this wasn't a blatant DQ.
    This is exactly why I said at the start of this particular topic that I'm seeing a lot of people saying this but they're basing it on what?

    Imagine you're watching the WWF in 1993-1994 and you're like, "WCW is better because they're more strict with the DQ's, you can't even go off the top or throw a dude over the top rope to the outside!" So again, who's to say what constitutes a DQ in AEW?

    Yep, I'm in the minority because people are literally comparing every fucking thing AEW does to the WWE. Including how/why they should DQ people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    This is exactly why I said at the start of this particular topic that I'm seeing a lot of people saying this but they're basing it on what?

    Imagine you're watching the WWF in 1993-1994 and you're like, "WCW is better because they're more strict with the DQ's, you can't even go off the top or throw a dude over the top rope to the outside!" So again, who's to say what constitutes a DQ in AEW?

    Yep, I'm in the minority because people are literally comparing every fucking thing AEW does to the WWE. Including how/why they should DQ people.
    Wrestling?

    If that's the case and I shouldn't have a baseline, then that simply boils down to suggest they've done an absolutely terrible job of outlying what people are watching and what to watch for. For example, how am I supposed to know the match isn't over when the ref gets a one count? I think it's one or the other at that point. I tend to think it's not that egregious and they just missed a key detail in a match.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BGMaverick View Post
    Wrestling?

    If that's the case and I shouldn't have a baseline, then that simply boils down to suggest they've done an absolutely terrible job of outlying what people are watching and what to watch for. For example, how am I supposed to know the match isn't over when the ref gets a one count? I think it's one or the other at that point. I tend to think it's not that egregious and they just missed a key detail in a match.
    ECW wasn't wrestling?

    WWE was not as strict as TNA when it comes to World title changes as they would allow it if the champion was DQ'd or counted out.

    So again, there is no real bible of rules everyone has to follow. You trying to say wins and losses matter more if they adhere to a particular company's set of rules makes no sense. If you're DQ'd in the UFC for throwing knees to a grounded opponent's head but Pride allows it, does that automatically mean the UFC is better than Pride?

    It's something that again, fans are just comparing it to what they might see in the WWE. And even then, we could probably go back over the last 4-5 Raw's and find examples where the ref didn't automatically DQ someone where they might have in another match.

    So basically for me it's hard to say that wins and losses don't matter as much as AEW say they do based solely on the ref not DQing Jericho's team for the Moxley interference because for example, in ECW, that wouldn't matter. And no company has ever really taken wins and losses as serious as AEW claims to be so what are we basing the merit of that mantra?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    ECW wasn't wrestling?

    WWE was not as strict as TNA when it comes to World title changes as they would allow it if the champion was DQ'd or counted out.

    So again, there is no real bible of rules everyone has to follow. You trying to say wins and losses matter more if they adhere to a particular company's set of rules makes no sense. If you're DQ'd in the UFC for throwing knees to a grounded opponent's head but Pride allows it, does that automatically mean the UFC is better than Pride?

    It's something that again, fans are just comparing it to what they might see in the WWE. And even then, we could probably go back over the last 4-5 Raw's and find examples where the ref didn't automatically DQ someone where they might have in another match.

    So basically for me it's hard to say that wins and losses don't matter as much as AEW say they do based solely on the ref not DQing Jericho's team for the Moxley interference because for example, in ECW, that wouldn't matter. And no company has ever really taken wins and losses as serious as AEW claims to be so what are we basing the merit of that mantra?
    If that's all the case, then then a general presumption should be they're bad at this because it should have been outlined right at the beginning. I mean, people should know what they're watching and people should present it in a way that takes away ambiguity. I don't think the question I have based on your example of whether one MMA organization is better than the other based on that. The point I would take is that both have made it perfectly clear that one views that act as illegal and the other doesn't view it as illegal. It's clearly outlined.

    I would probably disagree on principle to the WWE example because they are more than okay booking a DQ to prolong a story or avoid booking someone to lose. They probably go overboard in that regard or they do a better job of protecting the ref's "integrity" by having a distraction or bump of some kind.

    We're basing the merit of the mantra on the fact that they've communicated it multiple times over multiple months. They didn't do it last night but they have had events where the records are in the chiron with the performer's name. So they've communicated that explicitly but I guess based on the main point again, we can make a case it doesn't matter at all because the rules haven't been expressed. So if that's the case, again...they either dropped the ball entirely with the rules or they booked a wonky finish. One feels more likely than the other.
    Last edited by BGMaverick; October 3rd, 2019 at 5:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BGMaverick View Post
    If that's all the case, then then a general presumption should be they're bad at this because it should have been outlined right at the beginning. I mean, people should know what they're watching and people should present it in a way that takes away ambiguity. I don't think the question I have based on your example of whether one MMA organization is better than the other based on that. The point I would take is that both have made it perfectly clear that one views that act as illegal and the other doesn't view it as illegal. It's clearly outlined.

    I would probably disagree on principle to the WWE example because they are more than okay booking a DQ to prolong a story or avoid booking someone to lose. They probably go overboard in that regard or they do a better job of protecting the ref's "integrity" by having a distraction or bump of some kind.

    We're basing the merit of the mantra on the fact that they've communicated it multiple times over multiple months. They didn't do it last night but they have had events where the records are in the chiron with the performer's name. So they've communicated that explicitly but I guess based on the main point again, we can make a case it doesn't matter at all because the rules haven't been expressed. So if that's the case, again...they either dropped the ball entirely with the rules or they booked a wonky finish. One feels more likely than the other.
    They've communicated explicitly that wins and losses matter. That part is correct. You're whole argument is that by them not DQing Jericho's team for Moxley attacking Omega that somehow puts the integrity of that mantra in question. Based on what? Again, you said "Wrestling" but what about ECW? And what promotion has ever really came out and said they're going to treat wins and losses like professional sports where they matter?

    Sure, maybe AEW needs to come out and say "Ok, here are our rules and here are the circumstances in which we'll automatically DQ someone for no matter what!" Maybe they eventually will. Does the WWE come out every show, every match, and give you the explicit rules for that match? Because yes, they do tend to be relaxed with what a ref sees that should be a DQ or should be a countout.

    You keep talking about rules, that you're basing on another promotion and how they would have reacted. New Japan is another great example of a promotion that doesn't have an explicit rule book. We've seen DQ's in that company, and in the same night, we'll see a motherfucker get hit with a baby chair and get put through a baby table. These rules you speak of are not gospel for every promotion nor does it take away a win or loss just because during 1 match we didn't see an automatic DQ like we might have in the WWE for the same thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    They've communicated explicitly that wins and losses matter. That part is correct. You're whole argument is that by them not DQing Jericho's team for Moxley attacking Omega that somehow puts the integrity of that mantra in question. Based on what? Again, you said "Wrestling" but what about ECW? And what promotion has ever really came out and said they're going to treat wins and losses like professional sports where they matter?

    Sure, maybe AEW needs to come out and say "Ok, here are our rules and here are the circumstances in which we'll automatically DQ someone for no matter what!" Maybe they eventually will. Does the WWE come out every show, every match, and give you the explicit rules for that match? Because yes, they do tend to be relaxed with what a ref sees that should be a DQ or should be a countout.

    You keep talking about rules, that you're basing on another promotion and how they would have reacted. New Japan is another great example of a promotion that doesn't have an explicit rule book. We've seen DQ's in that company, and in the same night, we'll see a motherfucker get hit with a baby chair and get put through a baby table. These rules you speak of are not gospel for every promotion nor does it take away a win or loss just because during 1 match we didn't see an automatic DQ like we might have in the WWE for the same thing.
    Because if wins and losses matter, there needs to be a uniformed set of rules - without any deviation - that clearly work for any and all circumstances unless otherwise agreed upon (No DQ match, etc. etc.). If that's not established, you can't use that as a foundation because the rules aren't worth much because they can change based on a referee's discretion, which was noted by commentary earlier (which Morrison used as an example). That's a slippery slope that you probably don't want to go down if the mantra is part of your mission statement. In regards to what promotion has done that? This one has lol. So if that's the case, everything has to be crystal clear. The rules of sports are clear. Refs blow calls in real sports but they're generally addressed via commentary or a commissioner after the fact. As of now, the actions of the main event haven't been addressed.

    WWE isn't very consistent with expressing the rules but in new situations, they are pretty good at outlining the rules even if they are convoluted to hell. Commentary will usually chime in with random rules in situational moments (champion's advantage on count outs, no DQs in a triple threat, etc.). AEW has done that with the battle royals (which are silly), so they are capable of expressing rules if they're out of the norm.

    You bring up NJPW and that's an example that I agree with in terms of the ambiguity and that inefficiency is annoying to me, which would support the point of view I have with this. It would be heightened to a degree because AEW, unlike NJPW, has gone out of their way to express that the records mean more. If it really is a big deal, there needs to be uniformity and order or it's just lip service.

  99. #99
    E-Bow The Poster Rancid_Planet's Avatar
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    So AEW did beat the pants off of NXT. That's good and all but hopefully they keep shooting for more.

    I feel like if they can keep viewership above 1 mil for the year end average that's a victory.

  100. #100
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    I generally enjoyed what I saw of AEW last night. Which wasn't the whole thing.

    Jericho looks like he's drunk it in, man, an awful lot. Starting to look like Tommy Dreamer around the gut.

    Cody looks really sharp, and helped make Guevara look like he has a bright future.

    PAC did his job - he managed to make me interested in seeing more of Adam Page.

    The problem I have with the main event was that even though it was executed well enough, it was just so overbooked it just doesn't make sense. Longtime fans understand the concept of a heel run-in to make a heelish point, and a face run-in to even the sides. But Moxley, Cody, Guevera, Dustin, and Hager all running in was a bit too much. I understand why they did it this way - they want to do everything they can to attract fans who don't know much outside the WWE, so they have to show off their talent.

    I admit I will be watching more.

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