WWE SummerSlam - August 11th 2019

[Bill Casey]

August 11th, 2019

---

WWE Universal Championship
Brock Lesnar vs. Seth Rollins

---

WWE World Heavyweight Championship
Kofi Kingston vs. Randy Orton

---

WWE RAW Women's Championship - Submission Match
Becky Lynch vs. Natalya

---

Grudge Match
Kevin Owens vs. Shane McMahon

---

WWE SmackDown Women's Championship
Bayley vs. Ember Moon

---

Grudge Match
Finn Balor vs. The Fiend

---

WWE US Championship Match
AJ Styles vs. Ricochet

---

Grudge Match
Trish Stratus vs. Charlotte

---

Grudge Match
Goldberg vs. Dolph Ziggler

---

WWE Cruiserweight Championship
Drew Gulak vs. Oney Lorcan

---

[Psycho666Soldier]

From the looks of it, we'll also be getting Kofi/Orton, Shinsuke/Ali, and IIconics/Kabuki Warriors. I expect we get some form of Owens vs Shane, probably an AJ/Ricochet rematch, and perhaps Wyatt/Finn. Not a bad looking card considering the possibilities.

[BGMaverick]

From the looks of it, we'll also be getting Kofi/Orton, Shinsuke/Ali, and IIconics/Kabuki Warriors. I expect we get some form of Owens vs Shane, probably an AJ/Ricochet rematch, and perhaps Wyatt/Finn. Not a bad looking card considering the possibilities.

The big unknowns are Drew, Taker, Reigns, Strowman, Bryan, both tag titles.

[Psycho666Soldier]

Yeah, I'm really curious what Bryan's announcement was gonna be. It seemed like it was about something other than the tag titles, but the segment went a big way towards hinting at it. Hope it's just an obvious misdirect, but I don't know what he would do if Randy's going for the WWE Title. Maybe he calls out Taker?

[BGMaverick]

Yeah, I'm really curious what Bryan's announcement was gonna be. It seemed like it was about something other than the tag titles, but the segment went a big way towards hinting at it. Hope it's just an obvious misdirect, but I don't know what he would do if Randy's going for the WWE Title. Maybe he calls out Taker?

Taker would require the least amount of time to build towards it. Drew seemed like the prime choice for Taker but they kind of wasted this week in terms of getting towards it, and next week could be a waste too because he's likely getting some vengeance towards Cedric.

[NWo4LifeOr2Years]

The big unknowns are Drew, Taker, Reigns, Strowman, Bryan, both tag titles.

and Rousey,
.

No way Natty is taking on anybody at a 'Major' ppv.

[Rancid_Planet]

and Rousey,
.

No way Natty is taking on anybody at a 'Major' ppv.

They may feel that the Raw women's title needs a good old fashioned barn bunner to get the division heated up. I think she's largely overrated as a worker but Nattie is perceived to be that type of wrestler by WWE.

[Bill Casey]

SummerSlam is also in Canada...

[Tainted Eclipse]

what a boring ass card

[Peter Griffin]

what a boring ass card

Am I right?

[Donald]

I'm not thrilled by Seth/Brock again, but I am excited to see unsexpected women getting title shots.

[PurePlayer]

I think the card will deliver big time in terms of match quality. Every match listed has a possibility to be a great match

[mth]

Not too thrilled about the RAW Women's and Universal matches but a few of the other matches and implied matches are looking pretty tasty.

[Psycho666Soldier]

It's hard to be thrilled about another Lesnar title match(particularly with him as champion), and Rollins did have kind of a lukewarm reign(I think mostly due to being forced to fuck with Corbin through most of it), but I think the crowd wants to love Rollins as champion, and having Rollins prove himself again by beating Brock definitively would do that. That potential has me excited for the match, because the idea of Rollins working a bit more of a match where he actually has to fight from underneath without shenanigans would be great if actually executed that way.

[Donald]

I hope they add another person to the Universal Champion, I seem to enjoy multi-man Lesnar matches more.

[Psycho666Soldier]

I'd be cool with another Brock Triple Threat. Those almost always deliver.

Seems Braun would be the logical answer there.

[Peter Griffin]

Fatal fourway with Lashley.

[Nash Diesel]

Bayley v. Ember Moon is the only match I'm digging right now. Rollins v. Lesnar will have the same bland build most of Lesnar's matches have had the last couple years. And I'm sorry but Natalya v. Becky Lynch....? I get it. Canada. A year after Anvil passed. Any other talent other than Becky and I'd say Nattie would win the belt again at Summerslam (defeated Naomi @ the 2017 show). But Becky needs to lose to someone that isn't a cornball.

[Badger]

At the very least, I hope they make Rollins/Lesnar No DQ.

[PurePlayer]

They really couldn't make Ember Moon win matches for the last month or so to at least make her look like a credible challenger that's worthy of a title shot? Jeez. Some of the booking makes no sense. yes the match could be good but come on.

[Nash Diesel]

At the very least, I hope they make Rollins/Lesnar No DQ.

I think they will.

I am a little on the fence about the timing of Lesnar cashing in. Felt they could have held off and given Seth a few more months.

[Nash Diesel]

They really couldn't make Ember Moon win matches for the last month or so to at least make her look like a credible challenger that's worthy of a title shot? Jeez. Some of the booking makes no sense. yes the match could be good but come on.

Well, what makes her NOT appear like a credible challenger? I don't think anyone is looking at her and thinking she's not credible because she didn't have the appropriate number of victories. What makes her less credible than say Natalya?

[PurePlayer]

Well, what makes her NOT appear like a credible challenger? I don't think anyone is looking at her and thinking she's not credible because she didn't have the appropriate number of victories. What makes her less credible than say Natalya?

I could say the same for Nattie as well. They obviously are doing this shit on the fly or else they would've used Nattie or Ember Moon weeks ago. We obviously have different opinions on this. I think someone should be built up and look strong before getting a title shot. I made the same case about Samoa Joe.

Your argument is always, well they do it all the time or they did it with this person. Again, it doesn't make it right. The Joe and Kofi feud was pointless and just a match to get us to summerslam. The match wasn't even anything special.

[Nash Diesel]

I could say the same for Nattie as well. They obviously are doing this shit on the fly or else they would've used Nattie or Ember Moon weeks ago. We obviously have different opinions on this. I think someone should be built up and look strong before getting a title shot. I made the same case about Samoa Joe.

Your argument is always, well they do it all the time or they did it with this person. Again, it doesn't make it right. The Joe and Kofi feud was pointless and just a match to get us to summerslam. The match wasn't even anything special.

Ah man I disagree I really enjoyed the little feud with Joe and Kofi and thought the match was dope. Helped Kofi look good against a beast like Joe.

My argument is more about what makes these people less credible? Is it literally just wins and losses? I don't pretend to remember everything so I'll ask if this has always been an issue, the number of wins/losses someone has leading up to a title match?

See, I'm someone who looks at the body of work a talent brings to the table and how they're making you care about the feud. So for Joe/Kofi, you cared because Joe was attacking Kofi despite not really being in the hunt so you wanted Kofi to get his revenge. But you also knew that despite Joe's win/loss record, he's still a monster who COULD beat your ass and take your title.

So I think the same thing with Ember Moon. There's some doubt if she can win due to not having a decent resume with wins left and right. But she has also proven that she CAN be a threat. Realistically the only other women next to Bayley that she could beat that would make her more credible would be a win over Charlotte.

[PurePlayer]

Remember the case you made about Jinder getting a title shot against Orton? Same case basically applies to all these jabronis getting title shots for no reason

[PurePlayer]

Ah man I disagree I really enjoyed the little feud with Joe and Kofi and thought the match was dope. Helped Kofi look good against a beast like Joe.

My argument is more about what makes these people less credible? Is it literally just wins and losses? I don't pretend to remember everything so I'll ask if this has always been an issue, the number of wins/losses someone has leading up to a title match?

See, I'm someone who looks at the body of work a talent brings to the table and how they're making you care about the feud. So for Joe/Kofi, you cared because Joe was attacking Kofi despite not really being in the hunt so you wanted Kofi to get his revenge. But you also knew that despite Joe's win/loss record, he's still a monster who COULD beat your ass and take your title.

So I think the same thing with Ember Moon. There's some doubt if she can win due to not having a decent resume with wins left and right. But she has also proven that she CAN be a threat. Realistically the only other women next to Bayley that she could beat that would make her more credible would be a win over Charlotte.

I did not think the match between Joe and Kofi was anything memorable. I don't think anyone really thought deep down Joe had a chance. At least with the people I talk to. had Joe beaten some dudes before Kofi, it would've made Kofi look more like a beast

But why take the lazy route and not have Ember Moon wrestle on Smackdown against people and then come out and team with Bayley and demand a title shot? It just seems lazy to me that they randomly team up and then boom title match because they don't have anyone else for Bayley to face. I like the pair up and think they can have a good match. I just wish they built out a better story to lead to this. It's not a matter of being creative either. It's a matter of being lazy

[Nash Diesel]

But why take the lazy route and not have Ember Moon wrestle on Smackdown against people and then come out and team with Bayley and demand a title shot? It just seems lazy to me that they randomly team up and then boom title match because they don't have anyone else for Bayley to face.

I mean she did beat Mandy Rose 2 weeks ago and then came out and teamed with Bayley and then demanded a title shot......

Is it lazy? It's a different approach. And Ember Moon was one of the women that Bayley said she wanted to defend her title against several weeks ago. So there's a little bit of a backstory already in place as they also interacted on the Moment of Bliss segment. And now we have a good month to build even more between the 2.

[Sasori]

Time and time again, they've shown that wins and losses don't matter when someone can just get up in the champ's face and get a title match.

[Nash Diesel]

Time and time again, they've shown that wins and losses don't matter when someone can just get up in the champ's face and get a title match.

That's the joy of pro wrestling. It never has and never will be solely about wins and losses. At least not in the last like 60 years. If you can deliver that's all that matters. Anyone who is looking at Ember Moon like she doesn't have what it takes to beat Bayley need to educate themselves.

[BGMaverick]

I don't think the build of Ember over the last month or two has been lazy. It's unorthodox but it's passable. It's not like Liv, who randomly just reappeared on TV, and was put into the title match. Ember has been on TV over the last few weeks, with a story, and has shown some personality along the way. She wasn't going to put up with the bullying and even confronted them in a situation where she was outnumbered. Not everything has to happen in the ring in terms of building a person up.

[Nash Diesel]

I don't think the build of Ember over the last month or two has been lazy. It's unorthodox but it's passable. It's not like Liv, who randomly just reappeared on TV, and was put into the title match. Ember has been on TV over the last few weeks, with a story, and has shown some personality along the way. She wasn't going to put up with the bullying and even confronted them in a situation where she was outnumbered. Not everything has to happen in the ring in terms of building a person up.

Exactly. Liv being put in the title match would have been an obvious questionable decision. I don't think she's pinned but maybe 1 person the entire time she's been on the main roster, maybe 3 people total counting NXT. Ember on the other hand....Her in-ring skills speak for themselves, she's popular, she's a former NXT champion.

I'm flexible when it comes to this kind of stuff. Trust me, I am on board with Pure Player's idea of building up people and having them look stronger going into a title match regardless the title. But I also understand that, especially in the WWE, wins and losses are only part of the story. The WWE have so much 50/50 booking it's hard to validate really anyone but a handful of wrestlers as ultra credible and worthy.

[Donald]

That's the joy of pro wrestling. It never has and never will be solely about wins and losses. At least not in the last like 60 years. If you can deliver that's all that matters. Anyone who is looking at Ember Moon like she doesn't have what it takes to beat Bayley need to educate themselves.

I'm all for battle royals or multi-person matches to determine number one contenders. Like, sure it doesn't make sense that Cesaro is in a battle royal when he lost the night before, but Aleister Black isn't, but it's better than Cesaro coming out and challenging Brock Lesnar (though that would probably be the coolest thing since Licensed to Ill came out).

I'm not ok with guys like Dolph Ziggler being gone for 5 months trying to make people laugh just coming in and being put in the title matches. It shouldn't have been him, it should have been Ali vs. Kofi, imagine those matches?

Only problem I had with Joe being put in the feud with Kofi is cause they always build Joe up as a threat then he loses the big matches. And it was just going to happen again with Kofi. Fucking have Joe win the big one already.

[BGMaverick]

Exactly. Liv being put in the title match would have been an obvious questionable decision. I don't think she's pinned but maybe 1 person the entire time she's been on the main roster, maybe 3 people total counting NXT. Ember on the other hand....Her in-ring skills speak for themselves, she's popular, she's a former NXT champion.

I'm flexible when it comes to this kind of stuff. Trust me, I am on board with Pure Player's idea of building up people and having them look stronger going into a title match regardless the title. But I also understand that, especially in the WWE, wins and losses are only part of the story. The WWE have so much 50/50 booking it's hard to validate really anyone but a handful of wrestlers as ultra credible and worthy.

I don’t really know Ember’s character still. It’s not a personality they’ve fully developed. To be fair, it want in NXT either. That’s definitely a shortcoming on their part with her. Based on what I’ve seen, she just comes off as a loaner who has interests and is mocked because they’re not “cool”. Fundamentally, She’s just a solid worker, she can talk, and she’s got a hell of a finisher.

I give them way too much of a pass on satisfying the core basis of logic, which PurePlayer (and anyone who likes a story) wants, but if they work around the edges with a story that’s not just ultimately thrown on TV, then I can work with it.

[PurePlayer]

I don't think the build of Ember over the last month or two has been lazy. It's unorthodox but it's passable. It's not like Liv, who randomly just reappeared on TV, and was put into the title match. Ember has been on TV over the last few weeks, with a story, and has shown some personality along the way. She wasn't going to put up with the bullying and even confronted them in a situation where she was outnumbered. Not everything has to happen in the ring in terms of building a person up.

I don't want it to be passable though. I want a little more effort in their main women's storyline on smackdown. Is it that much to ask? lol

[PurePlayer]

I'm flexible when it comes to this kind of stuff. Trust me, I am on board with Pure Player's idea of building up people and having them look stronger going into a title match regardless the title. But I also understand that, especially in the WWE, wins and losses are only part of the story. The WWE have so much 50/50 booking it's hard to validate really anyone but a handful of wrestlers as ultra credible and worthy.

Right. I can argue that the 50/50 booking is basically one of the main reasons for a lackluster product. No stars.

[Nash Diesel]

I don’t really know Ember’s character still. It’s not a personality they’ve fully developed. To be fair, it want in NXT either. That’s definitely a shortcoming on their part with her. Based on what I’ve seen, she just comes off as a loaner who has interests and is mocked because they’re not “cool”. Fundamentally, She’s just a solid worker, she can talk, and she’s got a hell of a finisher.

I give them way too much of a pass on satisfying the core basis of logic, which PurePlayer (and anyone who likes a story) wants, but if they work around the edges with a story that’s not just ultimately thrown on TV, then I can work with it.

Ember Moon the character, yeah I have no real clue what makes her different other than her look. But that is a problem with so many people in WWE. And maybe that's what a lot of fans want. They don't care about a backstory as much as they do about what happens in the ring. But yeah I've always been intrigued with what Ember Moon is all about.

And it doesn't seem like a STORY is what PurePlayer is looking for. It's just the fact that some wrestlers come in to a title match with not having enough wins. There was a story with Joe and Kofi for example. There was a story with Dolph and Kofi. But it's the fact they were either coming off losses or hiatus or both that is an issue for some fans.

- - - Updated - - -

Right. I can argue that the 50/50 booking is basically one of the main reasons for a lackluster product. No stars.

50/50 booking has nothing to do with no stars.

[PurePlayer]

And it doesn't seem like a STORY is what PurePlayer is looking for. It's just the fact that some wrestlers come in to a title match with not having enough wins. There was a story with Joe and Kofi for example. There was a story with Dolph and Kofi. But it's the fact they were either coming off losses or hiatus or both that is an issue for some fans.

- - - Updated - - -



50/50 booking has nothing to do with no stars.

I think 50/50 booking has a lot to do with it. Elias was climbing the ladder to become a pretty big star but they killed him with a heel turn and then a bunch of losses. He was getting some of the biggest reactions as a heel and a face. Now, he's just another guy. Samoa Joe was a beast but now doesn't look special. Sami Zayn ? What the hell happened to him. KO was lifeless until this recent face turn.

I agree in that I have more of an issue with the wins and losses and credibility of opponents getting title shots over the actual storylines. Having both a credible challenger and a good story is ideal.

[BGMaverick]

I don't want it to be passable though. I want a little more effort in their main women's storyline on smackdown. Is it that much to ask? lol

In reality, no. In WWE, yes.

I’ve just abandoned the concept for the foreseeable future that we’ll get credible challengers AND a story. It’s not happening with the man in charge staying there. That said, I get that placated in NXT and other outlets.

[Psycho666Soldier]

I think what's more important is that Ember racks up a couple wins in the weeks leading up to the PPV. That will show all the doubters that it's something she deserves, not just handed to her.

[BGMaverick]

Ember Moon the character, yeah I have no real clue what makes her different other than her look. But that is a problem with so many people in WWE. And maybe that's what a lot of fans want. They don't care about a backstory as much as they do about what happens in the ring. But yeah I've always been intrigued with what Ember Moon is all about.

I don’t think that’s the answer: that the fans don’t want layers and substance. I just think the creators think that’s what they want and they give just enough there.

This isn’t a knock but I think there’s a ton of crossing over of wrestling fans being fans of comics or video games. Just look at what’s made shit loads of money for movies: comic book movies. What have the most successful ones done? Told stories, build people up, those people have substance and layers and it’s all paid off at the end. It’s not that hard. It is for Vince but other people are capable of doing it.

[PurePlayer]

I don’t think that’s the answer: that the fans don’t want layers and substance. I just think the creators think that’s what they want and they give just enough there.

This isn’t a knock but I think there’s a ton of crossing over of wrestling fans being fans of comics or video games. Just look at what’s made shit loads of money for movies: comic book movies. What have the most successful ones done? Told stories, build people up, those people have substance and layers and it’s all paid off at the end. It’s not that hard. It is for Vince but other people are capable of doing it.

Is Ember Moon going to lose this match and then go back to doing nothing? The answer is absolutely. I haven't seen any indication that this isn't just a one off to put the smackdown title on the card

[Nash Diesel]

I don’t think that’s the answer: that the fans don’t want layers and substance. I just think the creators think that’s what they want and they give just enough there.

This isn’t a knock but I think there’s a ton of crossing over of wrestling fans being fans of comics or video games. Just look at what’s made shit loads of money for movies: comic book movies. What have the most successful ones done? Told stories, build people up, those people have substance and layers and it’s all paid off at the end. It’s not that hard. It is for Vince but other people are capable of doing it.

And had a great marketing plan lol.

Seriously though....Look @ all the top talent in the WWE. Where are the layers to Charlotte's character? How about Becky? How about Daniel Bryan, Kofi, Seth?

And when they do try to add layers and make an interesting story beyond "#1 contender v. the champ", people kind of frown on it. Not a lot of people, but some.

[Nash Diesel]

Is Ember Moon going to lose this match and then go back to doing nothing? The answer is absolutely. I haven't seen any indication that this isn't just a one off to put the smackdown title on the card

Or it could be the launching pad to make her into a bigger star.....

You haven't seen any indication....So her being on t.v. every week for the last couple months, being one of the 3 names Bayley said she wanted to fight, and now in a title match=indication they are going to do nothing with her after Summerslam?

[PurePlayer]

Or it could be the launching pad to make her into a bigger star.....

You haven't seen any indication....So her being on t.v. every week for the last couple months, being one of the 3 names Bayley said she wanted to fight, and now in a title match=indication they are going to do nothing with her after Summerslam?

Yes, if I had to put money on this being a launching pad or her going back to being in backstage segments, i will say the backstage segments and doing nothing. I have no faith in whoever is handling this storyline. I think it's just a one time throwaway. I hope to be wrong. I hope this leads to a heel turn for one of them and then a blood feud in the fall. I just think it's a holdover until Sasha comes back

[BGMaverick]

And had a great marketing plan lol.

Seriously though....Look @ all the top talent in the WWE. Where are the layers to Charlotte's character? How about Becky? How about Daniel Bryan, Kofi, Seth?

And when they do try to add layers and make an interesting story beyond "#1 contender v. the champ", people kind of frown on it. Not a lot of people, but some.

They’re all very generic. I could label them all in one sentence and that’s all they do for them from feud to feud. They don’t add much layering of contextual substance to a character after they move on. That’s a problem.

[BGMaverick]

Someone won a minor victory over Vince, though. Based on Prichard, Vince doesn’t see the value in face-face matchups. So either he sees value in Ember by eventually turning her or someone went to bat for her and sees a lot of value in her.

[Nash Diesel]

Yes, if I had to put money on this being a launching pad or her going back to being in backstage segments, i will say the backstage segments and doing nothing. I have no faith in whoever is handling this storyline. I think it's just a one time throwaway. I hope to be wrong. I hope this leads to a heel turn for one of them and then a blood feud in the fall. I just think it's a holdover until Sasha comes back

Yeah people have been thinking everything is just a holdover until Sasha comes back. People thought Sunday was going to be the return of Sasha. People thought Sasha was going to be back months ago to challenge Becky or to step up to Bayley prior to Bliss. I'm not holding my breath.

I'm going to be glass half full on Ember Moon because I'm sick of the same 5 people (4 Horsewomen and Alexa) being the center of attention pretty much the last 4 years.

When you have the 2 best wrestlers in a tag-team (Asuka and Sane) but still think Charlotte needs a 9th title reign....there's something sketchy.

They’re all very generic. I could label them all in one sentence and that’s all they do for them from feud to feud. They don’t add much layering of contextual substance to a character after they move on. That’s a problem.

It's almost like we have to seek out these layers. For example, all you have to do is watch that Seth Rollins doc when he was hurt and damn there's like 4-5 interesting aspects of his life that could make you a fan of his.

I will say this....Daniel Bryan shouldn't have been on that quick list because he has shown layers aside from "guy who worked his ass off to get to the top of the WWE" persona so many others have. I always wanted his vegan lifestyle and pro-Earth views to be part of his character, heel or face.

It's little shit like that where the WWE has ditched the over the top Bray Wyatt gimmicks for EVERYONE and focused more on a WCW approach of making everyone "real" so we need to know what about them as "people" should we take in and enjoy? Like Ali...I'm digging the fuck out of this guy because of the story they're providing. And on the flipside, that's what I love about Bray Wyatt. It's not a "reality" gimmick, so he stands out because it's done so fucking well despite his win/loss record.

[Nash Diesel]

Someone won a minor victory over Vince, though. Based on Prichard, Vince doesn’t see the value in face-face matchups. So either he sees value in Ember by eventually turning her or someone went to bat for her and sees a lot of value in her.

Vince had that mentality like 25 years ago but judging by the enormous amount of face v. face matches since WM 6 when Vince is said to have taken issue with face v. face matches, I think he got over it lol.

90% of John Cena's career has been against other babyfaces lol.

[BGMaverick]

Yeah people have been thinking everything is just a holdover until Sasha comes back. People thought Sunday was going to be the return of Sasha. People thought Sasha was going to be back months ago to challenge Becky or to step up to Bayley prior to Bliss. I'm not holding my breath.

I'm going to be glass half full on Ember Moon because I'm sick of the same 5 people (4 Horsewomen and Alexa) being the center of attention pretty much the last 4 years.

When you have the 2 best wrestlers in a tag-team (Asuka and Sane) but still think Charlotte needs a 9th title reign....there's something sketchy.



It's almost like we have to seek out these layers. For example, all you have to do is watch that Seth Rollins doc when he was hurt and damn there's like 4-5 interesting aspects of his life that could make you a fan of his.

I will say this....Daniel Bryan shouldn't have been on that quick list because he has shown layers aside from "guy who worked his ass off to get to the top of the WWE" persona so many others have. I always wanted his vegan lifestyle and pro-Earth views to be part of his character, heel or face.

It's little shit like that where the WWE has ditched the over the top Bray Wyatt gimmicks for EVERYONE and focused more on a WCW approach of making everyone "real" so we need to know what about them as "people" should we take in and enjoy? Like Ali...I'm digging the fuck out of this guy because of the story they're providing. And on the flipside, that's what I love about Bray Wyatt. It's not a "reality" gimmick, so he stands out because it's done so fucking well despite his win/loss record.

The Ali and Bray examples are astute because there’s a lot of time and effort delivered to them both. Gritty and different. It just makes you really wonder why more aren’t just done outside the box more. Those two clearly are working.

[Nash Diesel]

The Ali and Bray examples are astute because there’s a lot of time and effort delivered to them both. Gritty and different. It just makes you really wonder why more aren’t just done outside the box more. Those two clearly are working.

And it can work against a talent as well if they try to add layers because it depends on that layer lol.

Bobby Lashley is a great fucking example. Instead of maybe focusing on what people find interesting about him i.e. his athletic ability, his involvement in pro wrestling AND MMA....they had him do that lame sit down about his sisters lol.

Or Seth Rollins.....Let's incorporate his real life gf Becky Lynch, only let's do it in the most cornball way possible lol. That layer is 50/50 for me in terms of what works and what doesn't. What doesn't is when they both have a mic and talk to each other lol. What does is them kicking ass side by side.

But I mean shit, sometimes a layer comes around and you didn't even expect it and it actually helps. Roman Reigns' cancer coming back. As cold as it might sound, that was another layer and nobody has booed that guy since. So now he has this real layer to his character, and him as a man in general, and it's actually interesting despite the seriousness of cancer.

[Donald]

People can say how shit this card looks, or how they don't want to see certain matches again, but the truth is that the talent will knock this one out of the park, just like they did with Stomping Grounds and Extreme Rules.

If Kofi and Randy square off, will Randy yell "Stupid" at Kofi again?

[BGMaverick]

I'm pretty sure Kofi did in their back and forth interactions/matches leading up to Mania. Can't exactly remember if Orton did.

[Jarrod1983]

I'm pretty sure Kofi did in their back and forth interactions/matches leading up to Mania. Can't exactly remember if Orton did.

Kofi did for sure. Even still, hoping they bring this up and let that help build this match.

[Bagel]

Or it could be the launching pad to make her into a bigger star.....

You haven't seen any indication....So her being on t.v. every week for the last couple months, being one of the 3 names Bayley said she wanted to fight, and now in a title match=indication they are going to do nothing with her after Summerslam?

My guess is it's the former, and I think they like Ember and what she's capable of. Crowd seems to like her, while silly she's at least put into some kind of a continuing story which has led now to a title match.

[3puppies]

But some of the shit that works best just falls into their lap. Becky's broken nose. The crowd reaction to Kofi's substitution for Ali. On a much lower level, throw in James Ellsworth, the early incarnation of the B team, or Heath "I got Kids" Slater's free agency.

But for every one of these, there seem to be more that they totally miss the crowd reactions and don't pull the trigger on, or just waste. Rusev Day. Strowman. Samoa Joe. Drew McIntyre. Sasha. Elias. Zach Ryder. Mickie James. Asuka.

Because they insist on pushing crap we don't care about, well after the crowd shits on it. Corbin. SaNiTy or the Ascension. Bliss, Dana Brooke, or Nia Jax in the ring. Jinder Mahal. Kanelises.

[Peter Griffin]

I hope you find happiness one day Pureplayer.

[Nash Diesel]

But some of the shit that works best just falls into their lap. Becky's broken nose. The crowd reaction to Kofi's substitution for Ali. On a much lower level, throw in James Ellsworth, the early incarnation of the B team, or Heath "I got Kids" Slater's free agency.

But for every one of these, there seem to be more that they totally miss the crowd reactions and don't pull the trigger on, or just waste. Rusev Day. Strowman. Samoa Joe. Drew McIntyre. Sasha. Elias. Zach Ryder. Mickie James. Asuka.

Because they insist on pushing crap we don't care about, well after the crowd shits on it. Corbin. SaNiTy or the Ascension. Bliss, Dana Brooke, or Nia Jax in the ring. Jinder Mahal. Kanelises.

Well you have to respect that most of the stuff that does in fact get over is by luck.

And I'm not sure I'm following you on the crap they insist on pushing after the crowd shits on it. I don't remember Dana Brooke getting a push, ever lol. I don't remember Sanity getting a push or even Ascension.

Alexa Bliss in the ring? Well she has to wrestle. If not then what's the point? And are you just basing that off the match with 3 other women the other night on Raw because Seth Rollins and Dean Ambrose got the same treatment not even a year ago. Bliss gets a pass for average in-ring work because her character work is better than most of the talent including men.

No wrestling promotion has ever got it right 100% of the time. The only one that seems to be getting right more often than not is the WWE because they're still here and no other company in the history of wrestling has made as much money or had the number of fans as the WWE.

[3puppies]

I just meant they put Dana Brooke out there a LOT when she had no business being out there. When she was managing / valet for Charlotte, and just there to take the pin in tag matches, fine. But she was not close to being ready in the ring nor did they give her any mic time to show character for us to want to care about her at all. The same thing applied to most of the ladies roster. If we aren't given any reason to care about them (which can be either a promo or great ring work), why should we care?

Sure, I respect that much of what gets over is luck. But it is not luck when Vince decides not to push someone the crowd really wants to see more of. Whys do guys like Goldust, Wade Barrett, Sandow, or R-Truth languish on the roster for YEARS, even though just about every time they were given a small opportunity they knock it out of the park?

[PurePlayer]

I hope you find happiness one day Pureplayer.

are you mad I am saying mean things about wwe lol

[Nash Diesel]

I just meant they put Dana Brooke out there a LOT when she had no business being out there. When she was managing / valet for Charlotte, and just there to take the pin in tag matches, fine. But she was not close to being ready in the ring nor did they give her any mic time to show character for us to want to care about her at all. The same thing applied to most of the ladies roster. If we aren't given any reason to care about them (which can be either a promo or great ring work), why should we care?

Sure, I respect that much of what gets over is luck. But it is not luck when Vince decides not to push someone the crowd really wants to see more of. Whys do guys like Goldust, Wade Barrett, Sandow, or R-Truth languish on the roster for YEARS, even though just about every time they were given a small opportunity they knock it out of the park?

Well I think they realized after Dana split from Charlotte that she had no business being on t.v. which is why you have barely seen her on Raw or Smackdown since lol.

And I guess it depends on the situation you're talking about with those wrestlers you mentioned at the end. I can tell you right now why Wade Barrett didn't pop off....The guy is made of glass. Every single time they did try to do something with him he'd get hurt and he'd be out for 8 months.

So yeah it just really depends on the situation you're talking about and what other factors played into it. But a big problem imo is something we're agreeing on and that's the WWE not going with the flow of the fans when something they do put on t.v. gets a good response. When did we become the ones who didn't know what we wanted? lol. We were pretty good at telling Vince no, we don't want Rocky Maivia, we want The Rock. No we don't want bad guy Austin, we want to cheer Austin!

I blame John Cena. But that's for a totally different thread.

are you mad I am saying mean things about wwe lol

I'm shocked he didn't reply with :LKFJ:EIfjp4ajfpap4fija4-9fj-4a-fjadf;ljkasdfa Vince sucks LOL f;aljk;eiajfpoiesj0000$44

[Peter Griffin]

are you mad I am saying mean things about wwe lol

Do I sound mad?Lolz

- - - Updated - - -

Again with your nonsense Nash,boring,sad.

[Peter Griffin]

As I have said before WWE deserve s criticism (ND will ignore that part as its against his narrative) But there are some here who it just seems to make miserable to the point I'd have given up.

[Donald]

are you mad I am saying mean things about wwe lol

Yes, it breaks my heart to be honest.

[PurePlayer]

As I have said before WWE deserve s criticism (ND will ignore that part as its against his narrative) But there are some here who it just seems to make miserable to the point I'd have given up.

There are a lot of things I enjoy like Bray Wyatt, Aleister Black, KO's new face turn, AJ/Ricochet feud. I think they aren't using Daniel Bryan well since he lost the title (he was the best heel in the company), Sami Zayn is lost in the shuffle, and they butchered Elias. Becky Lynch is more annoying than likable and they don't book their title challengers well in advance of getting a shot. It's just random to me. Hopefully things start making sense when Paul and Eric are up and running

[BGMaverick]

With Bryan, I think they followed exactly what my thought process was going to be for the move to the tag division: ride the wave of Big E being out and find a team to develop for the future that hasn't been used much. I think they hit the nail on the head for both tasks. Now it's just a matter of them following up on that division going forward and finding something with some substantial meaning for Bryan going forward. The fact they're willing to bait and switch the audience with him makes me think they do have something good lined up for him.

I can understand the point of view of being down on what they did with him after Mania but there's clearly something we don't know about him and what happened after that because he disappeared and no one said a thing about why he was gone. You can make a case that you can make up literally any story for him after he's back so make something happen, but I like the approach of doing something for him AND doing something for others in the process.

[Peter Griffin]

Thats fair, I mean I am buying one of those sweet Wyatt masks when they are available and agree about Zayn tbf.

[PurePlayer]

With Bryan, I think they followed exactly what my thought process was going to be for the move to the tag division: ride the wave of Big E being out and find a team to develop for the future that hasn't been used much. I think they hit the nail on the head for both tasks. Now it's just a matter of them following up on that division going forward and finding something with some substantial meaning for Bryan going forward. The fact they're willing to bait and switch the audience with him makes me think they do have something good lined up for him.

I can understand the point of view of being down on what they did with him after Mania but there's clearly something we don't know about him and what happened after that because he disappeared and no one said a thing about why he was gone. You can make a case that you can make up literally any story for him after he's back so make something happen, but I like the approach of doing something for him AND doing something for others in the process.

Yeah if it's injury related or something like that I completely understand.

The biggest question for me is what they have planned for Roman? Maybe they do Roman vs Bryan for all we know.

[BGMaverick]

Yeah if it's injury related or something like that I completely understand.

The biggest question for me is what they have planned for Roman? Maybe they do Roman vs Bryan for all we know.

Even if it wasn’t injury-related, I can see a path where Bryan helping piecing together the tag division makes sense. He could easily downshift out of the title picture after losing to Kofi. Tag division was clearly a major issue with Big E and Jeff Hardy hurt. I think they really did improve Heavy Machinery with what’s happened the last two months. It’s up to them to make it work for them going forward but Bryan did his job.

Roman/Bryan, Taker/Bryan work for me. There feels like limited options for fresh ideas with Roman so I’m definitely interested to see what they do.

[Nash Diesel]

If the rumors of Taker wanting to work with Drew are true, that should be the match and have Drew win.

Bryan v. Roman would be cool. Makes sense, heel v. face, and the story could be solid for sure.

[3puppies]

And we'd probably get Rowan v Roman thrown in on TV before hand.

[BGMaverick]

I've been thinking about it and there's kind of a path to right some wrongs going into the fall with Lesnar/Rollins. I think the general consensus is that this match is flat because we've seen it, Lesnar is a polarizing act (more towards the negative), and Rollins is cold. I think the idea is that people are scared or annoyed we're going into a several month cycle of Lesnar being a part-time champion. I think you have to squash that and have Rollins be the guy again and beat Lesnar at Summerslam. It needs to be different than the Mania match too. You can make it no DQ if you want, but it can't be sudden like Mania was. Rollins needs to scratch and claw to earn that win. That helps Rollins going forward, and you alleviate the concerns of the audience by showing the championship won't disappear.

The plus side of the stupidity of the last few months going forward is you've already blown your figurative wad on the stupid storyline face champions have to go through with Corbin. They seem to book face champions with a blah storyline for their first real defense and that cools off the champion. The feud with Corbin clearly didn't do any favors to Rollins but the thing is now you've already done it. Rollins just needs to be booked like Kofi has, look credible and throw different opponents at him. Hitch the wagon to Rollins as the face of the brand and make him look good. Lesnar can then move into the role I've thought is always best for him going forward: part-time act who shows up to wreck shop as a surprise to someone NOT in the title picture.

[PurePlayer]

Who is a good heel that Rollins can feud with after Mania for the title if the wildcard rule is in effect, I will list the smackdown heels too

Smackdown

Randy Orton-will either be champion or losing to the current champ. doubt he would be the next opponent
Nakamura-IC champ
Andrade-midcard
Elias-midcard
Samoa Joe-not sure what brand he is on but has cooled off with plenty of losses
Dolph Ziggler-not a chance
Daniel Bryan-is probably the best bet from Smackdown

RAW

Brock Lesnar-could happen in a gimmick at Hell in a Cell?
Drew McIntyre-maybe if he beats Taker it will make plenty of sense
Bobby Lashley-not over enough
Baron Corbin-been there done that
Sami Zayn-isn't being used
AJ Styles-depends if he is still US champ
Bray Wyatt-wouldn't make sense at this point

So the best options right now would be Brock Lesnar in a blowoff gimmick. McIntyre if he beats Taker, or Daniel Bryan if it's a crossover feud.

[BGMaverick]

Unless they've completely lost their mind with Drew, he seems like the most logical choice.

[Nash Diesel]

Lesnar wins at Summerslam then drops title to Strowman at Hell In A Cell. I would still keep Rollins in the mix as well as Drew. They could do a triple threat the following ppv but have the main feud be Strowman/Drew. Then Drew takes the belt off Strowman by the end of the year, holds it until Mania where he drops it to Rumble winner Velveteen Dream.

[PurePlayer]

Unless they've completely lost their mind with Drew, he seems like the most logical choice.

well hopefully they heat him up starting now. losing to cedric alexander doesn't help

[BGMaverick]

well hopefully they heat him up starting now. losing to cedric alexander doesn't help

The standard carbon copy booking of the week was to have an underutilized wrestler beat a suggested promising future guy with Alexander and Crews. If Taker is the plan for McIntyre, McIntyre needs to crush Alexander Monday and call out Taker all in the same night.

Monday needs to be a night where you’re running nostalgia but push key figures for future storylines with new eyeballs coming back. Owens, Wyatt, and McIntyre probably need to be three of the most prominent guys to be featured Monday.

[Nash Diesel]

The standard carbon copy booking of the week was to have an underutilized wrestler beat a suggested promising future guy with Alexander and Crews. If Taker is the plan for McIntyre, McIntyre needs to crush Alexander Monday and call out Taker all in the same night.

Monday needs to be a night where you’re running nostalgia but push key figures for future storylines with new eyeballs coming back. Owens, Wyatt, and McIntyre probably need to be three of the most prominent guys to be featured Monday.

Definitely agree!

[PurePlayer]

Owens, Wyatt, and McIntyre probably need to be three of the most prominent guys to be featured Monday.

100000%

[BGMaverick]

They're leaning in on Austin-like tendencies with Owens and I'm very curious how that plays out Monday. It's on the nose to have Owens interact with Austin but it's not a bad idea. You just have to be really careful how you navigate those waters. You're probably selling Owens short if you just have him be a copycat. Austin needs to give Owens the rub. Instead of Austin getting the limelight and Owens is just there, Owens needs to be the guy and Austin just needs to give his sign of approval or whatever. There's a way to do it. I'd also have that be the primary story for the show that culminates at the end.

McIntyre has his story rehashed from last week and then he just needs to destroy Alexander. That can be done in quick and then the carryover transition into calling out Taker should be the big story of that hour...probably the first hour.

Wyatt's return needs to be sprinkled over the course of the first hour or so and then commentary puts over how scary and crazy it was. That really hits its crescendo in the second hour and there's some kind of interaction between Bray and Finn to set up the Summerslam match.

[NWo4LifeOr2Years]

That's the joy of pro wrestling. It never has and never will be solely about wins and losses. At least not in the last like 60 years. If you can deliver that's all that matters. Anyone who is looking at Ember Moon like she doesn't have what it takes to beat Bayley need to educate themselves.

Well that statement is just so absolutely wrong on so many (organizational) levels. Certainly never in JCP/NWA and not in WCW after Crocket sold it until they were falling apart, circa 2000.
WWE certainly set up challengers to Bruno, Backlund, Hogan, Brett Hart etc in a program where the big evil monster would enter the territory, destroy everything in his path for months and then suffer his first loss at the hands of the conquering hero champion. That certainly hasn't ended until about 25 years ago at latest if that.

[Nash Diesel]

Well that statement is just so absolutely wrong on so many (organizational) levels. Certainly never in JCP/NWA and not in WCW after Crocket sold it until they were falling apart, circa 2000.
WWE certainly set up challengers to Bruno, Backlund, Hogan, Brett Hart etc in a program where the big evil monster would enter the territory, destroy everything in his path for months and then suffer his first loss at the hands of the conquering hero champion. That certainly hasn't ended until about 25 years ago at latest if that.

That scenario still happens to this day but it's not SOLELY about the wins and losses. Nobody is going "Ok, Yokozuna had 14 wins leading up to WM 9 he's worthy"

You basically gave zero examples. Just went "oh this is wrong on so many levels" Yet what level? You spoke about how they would build a heel monster yet we've seen plenty of times where the monster didn't even have a win and they got a title shot. The Giant v. Hulk Hogan Halloween Havoc 1995. Yeah, all those big wins The Giant had...........

[PurePlayer]

That scenario still happens to this day but it's not SOLELY about the wins and losses. Nobody is going "Ok, Yokozuna had 14 wins leading up to WM 9 he's worthy"

You basically gave zero examples. Just went "oh this is wrong on so many levels" Yet what level? You spoke about how they would build a heel monster yet we've seen plenty of times where the monster didn't even have a win and they got a title shot. The Giant v. Hulk Hogan Halloween Havoc 1995. Yeah, all those big wins The Giant had...........

I can name Vader, Khali, Umaga, and keep going if you want. I think there are more examples than the ones you are naming. besides, it's not like Giant was getting beat left and right like your boy Joe was to guys that are 5 feet tall.

[3puppies]

Monday needs to be a night where you’re running nostalgia but push key figures for future storylines with new eyeballs coming back. Owens, Wyatt, and McIntyre probably need to be three of the most prominent guys to be featured Monday.

Which of course means they will instead feature Shane McMahon, Roman Reigns, and Randy Orton.

[Nash Diesel]

I can name Vader, Khali, Umaga, and keep going if you want. I think there are more examples than the ones you are naming. besides, it's not like Giant was getting beat left and right like your boy Joe was to guys that are 5 feet tall.

Eh, I think you misunderstood me saying he gave basically zero examples. He gave 1 example of a formula where wins mattered, the ol' monster heel dominates then takes his first L against someone of worth like Bruno or Cena. I wasn't saying he needed to give me individual wrestlers which is why I pointed out Yokozuna WM 9, I knew what he was talking about.

And the reason The Giant wasn't getting beat left and right like my boy Joe before Havoc 1995 is because he hadn't had a fucking match! lol. His debut in WCW was against Hogan at HH 1995 where he won the World title via DQ................................................ .........

And the whole point of that example was to showcase that it's not SOLELY about wins and losses that make people a threat. Their fucking look alone could be what makes them credible. Were you sitting there watching Halloween Havoc 1995 wondering why The Giant would be taken seriously considering he never had a match prior in WCW? Of course you didn't think that because you're not an idiot.

[PurePlayer]

Well the Giant did look like a threat even though he didn't have a match. Had he lost to Mysterio and Chris Jericho the two weeks before that then maybe it would be a different story like your boy Joe

[Nash Diesel]

Well the Giant did look like a threat even though he didn't have a match. Had he lost to Mysterio and Chris Jericho the two weeks before that then maybe it would be a different story like your boy Joe

Fast forward less than 10 years later and he was in fact doing the job to Jericho and Mysterio yet still looking like a threat because HE LOOKS LIKE A THREAT.

And he even won a couple World titles along the way after losing to guys that were 2ft shorter than him.

[Bill Casey]

WWE has merch for the team of Roman and Undertaker...



So if they want to keep running with that, they could do The Graveyard Dogs vs. Bryan and Rowan...
That would get The Undertaker, Roman Reigns and Daniel Bryan on the card in one match...



I can also see Ronda Rousey being in Natalya's corner at SummerSlam, possibly as a surprise return for the casual audience...

[Nash Diesel]

That's actually a pretty slick name, "Graveyard Dogs"

I like the idea of that tag-team match as well. I wouldn't be negative toward a real Roman Reigns v. Daniel Bryan feud since the last time they fought it was basically just a #1 contender's type match.

[BGMaverick]

Graveyard Dogs is a pretty good name.

[Bill Casey]

The team does a lot of things. It makes it easier on Undertaker because he doesn't have to carry the match by himself. It's something fresh for Roman, and Roman can always use something fresh since he never turns heel. And it gives Roman the Taker rub to be side by side with him...

[G-Fresh]

Cool name. I'ma have to get me one of them shirts

[Vandal]

When is Charlotte getting added to the Bayley/Ember match? Or taking Ember's spot?

[BGMaverick]

Maybe as soon as Tuesday, considering Ember and Charlotte are squaring off.

[Beefy]

Anyone going to this show?

[Rancid_Planet]

When is Charlotte getting added to the Bayley/Ember match? Or taking Ember's spot?

Maybe as soon as Tuesday, considering Ember and Charlotte are squaring off.

It is strongly rumored Charlotte will be facing

Trish

at Summerslam.

[Sasori]

It is strongly rumored Charlotte will be facing

Trish

at Summerslam.

I guess that could be a match, but why? They really have nothing better for Charlotte to do?

[BGMaverick]

It's more of an indictment of how they've booked the women's division after Mania. Smackdown easily has the more well-rounded women's division and the most they have to show for it is a tag division that is messy and slightly more attention to Ember and a one-week angle for Liv. The women have probably seen the biggest series of setbacks once the wildcard stuff started coming into play.

[Donald]

I love how Charlotte says she's the best women's wrestler in history, but doesn't hold any of the titles?

[Psycho666Soldier]

I love how Charlotte says she's the best women's wrestler in history, but doesn't hold any of the titles?

That's the key for being a good heel. Believing your shit when you're being hypocritical.

[RuneEdge]

Is it wrong that I might actually agree with her?