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Thread: Hart Family Appreciation Thread

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Hart Family Appreciation Thread

    I was toying with the idea of a Hart thread and since we lost Owen today back in 1999 let's share fond memories of Owen and the rest of the Hart clan here.

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    Looks like rain Ted! Peter Griffin's Avatar
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    Hottest crowd ever?

    The Hart foundation V2 were excellent.

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    Loved the Hart Foundation. One of my earliest memories as a young fan was witnessing the face turn where Jimmy Hart aligned with Demolition and they wrestled each other on a Saturday morning show (Not sure if that would have been Superstars back in 1988-1989). Even as a kid I thought the tag-team scene in the WWF had some of the best WRESTLING.

    Blue Blazer was cool. I remember they used to run a spot during tv shows where he was going to unmask and you could see him at these different locations where he would unmask and sign autographs.

    Bret as a singles, very few are better, even less are in the same league. The guy literally was what he said he was. Owen Hart, super underrated as a singles wrestler imo. Personally, I think his haircut is what held him back from being World champion but also he was in an era where very few wrestlers were champ.

    If Owen Hart came along during the last 15 years, he would have been at least a 5 time World champion across 2-3 brands. I also wonder the "what if..." What if he didn't pass, what if he didn't retire like he wanted to in a year and stuck around. Matches against Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, fuck man even rematches against better versions of The Rock, X-Pac, Triple H, and Undertaker would have been SICK!!

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    World Champion Dave Wyndorf's Avatar
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    What's the reasoning behind Bret, Jim, and Bulldog all packing up to leave for WCW, but Owen stayed in WWE?

    Also, do you think Pillman would have gone back to WCW?

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald View Post
    What's the reasoning behind Bret, Jim, and Bulldog all packing up to leave for WCW, but Owen stayed in WWE?

    Also, do you think Pillman would have gone back to WCW?
    Vince wouldn't let Owen out of his contract because he still saw major value in Owen as opposed to Anvil who was only hired because Stu Hart asked Vince and Bulldog....well it was Bulldog.

    IDK about Pillman. Probably not. He worked Bischoff into a shoot thinking he would come back and the WWF was popping off right as he died. Had he lived, I have no doubt he would've been a huge part of Austin's first reign.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Got to sit down and watch Owen vs Bulldog from Raw March 97 today. I love this match. I wanted to do it yesterday but I just didn't find the time. One of the best matches in Raw history.

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    Why so serious? Damien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post


    Hottest crowd ever?

    The Hart foundation V2 were excellent.
    Ahhhhhh Canadian Stampede. I was there at the Saddledome that night. It was fucking crazy!

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damien View Post
    Ahhhhhh Canadian Stampede. I was there at the Saddledome that night. It was fucking crazy!
    I'm jealous, I bet fucking crazy is a understatement. That crowd was white hot.

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    Very glad that this thread got so few replies. Bret Hart is overrated trash and his entire family is a disgrace. Very sad.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    You dig this up just to say that? Pretty pitiful to spend your time that way. The Hart family is and always will be wrestling royalty.

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    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod1983 View Post
    Got to sit down and watch Owen vs Bulldog from Raw March 97 today. I love this match. I wanted to do it yesterday but I just didn't find the time. One of the best matches in Raw history.
    Possibly my favourite match in Raw history. I must check this out myself again soon.

    1997 remains my favourite year ever in wrestling. What a rollercoaster that was for them all, particularly Bret. From being in the main event scene all year, the match of the year with Austin at 'Mania, winning his 5th and last WWF Title at SummerSlam, the screwjob and then finally debuting on Nitro before the year was out. Mental. But boy did WCW squander that opportunity. You can count on one hand Bret's WCW highlights.

    I can actually only think of 4;
    1. The steel plate/Goldberg spear in Canada.
    2. Match at Kemper Arena for Owen.
    3. Debut match with Flair at Souled Out '98
    4. Winning the WCW Title at Mayhem '99, again in Canada.

    I think he had decent matches with Booker and Sting, but from memory, they seemed to all have schmoz finishes.
    Last edited by Murphy; September 3rd, 2019 at 6:52 AM.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    I'm right there with you about 1997 (93 and 94 were also great years to me. Sure there was tons of shit but dam it was fun!) I was thirteen and had pretty much grew up with the WWF. The attitude era came at just the right time. Even though Bret was trashing the USA seeing him have a rougher edge about him (I missed his original heel run so it was new to me) just made me double down harder as a fan of him. Everything he "whined" about was true at the beginning so I felt his heel turned was justified. Austin had pushed The Hitman too far. I remember my Dad at one point just not letting me watch every Monday. He said I watch it all on weekend mornings so he felt it was unnecessary to watch Monday night. I found out staying up late one night that the Canadian channel CKWS (I got 4 channels ABC, CBS, CKWS and PBS in my room) replayed Raw really late Saturday night/Early Sunday morning. Awesome stuff. I'd play Super NES all night and stay up. I remember seeing Owen win the I-C title and Anvil surprise attack Austin and Bret put over The Patriot. These memories are even more special to me. Just me and a ancient switch dial TV with bad reception watching Raw.

    I really didn't care much for Stone Cold until well after Bret had lefted. Honestly I was so busy that I pretty much watched 2 episodes of Raw Nov 97 to Nov 98. How can anyone resist a tournament to crown the new champ. I remember sitting at the lunch table and a bunch of guys were picking Austin or Rock. I was sorta baffled that Rocky Maivia was in the conversation and it was cool to talk about wrestling. I watched that Monday (week before the tourny) and as George Costanza would say "I'm back baby!"

    I think my parents were disappointed when Raw started coming on their TV's again. My mother says "We're back to this now?"? My dad took it a bit tougher and told me during football season of I wanted to watch "that shit" I have to bring my TV out so he could watch football. No problem there! Funny thing was I'd catch him wrestling more when it was on.

    Can't remember much about his WCW run either besides what you brought up. I do remember him joining Nash, Hall, Jarrett and Steiner and forming that nWo group with the silver colors. Saw that live actually (yeah I'd switch off Raw for Bret) and thought it was fun enough. Too bad it never got off the ground.
    Last edited by Jarrod1983; September 3rd, 2019 at 6:56 PM.

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    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    My Dad hated it too.

    I actually switched to Nitro when Bret left WWE. But in the UK, we didn't get access to the PPVs, so I just couldn't fully invest in WCW. Even if we had the PPVs, I think I'd have struggled. Just something about WCW never really clicked with me. I enjoyed the cruiserweight scene more than anything.

    I wonder what would have happened if Bret had never got injured when Vince bought the company in 2001. Man that could have been amazing. Yeah, highly likely that Bret and Vince still wouldn't have made up for years, but you never know. Matches in WWE with Angle, Jericho, Eddie etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post


    I wonder what would have happened if Bret had never got injured when Vince bought the company in 2001. Man that could have been amazing. Yeah, highly likely that Bret and Vince still wouldn't have made up for years, but you never know. Matches in WWE with Angle, Jericho, Eddie etc.
    Something I've always thought about but usually I space off Montreal and the death of Owen when going "Oh man Bret v. Angle would have been awesome" But when would that have happened? Who knows.....But I think it would have eventually.

    What options would Bret have had? He more than likely would have sat out the remainder of his contract and maybe he would have buried the hatchet sooner than later. It's hard to think out loud because Bret's never really said "If I hadn't been injured, I would have jumped in with NWA-TNA to stick it to Vince a little more" or "I would have probably gone back, worked with the younger talent and buried the hatchet for them". Which I think is what he would have done.

    And just think.....Guess who else was making their return. Shawn. Michaels. Could Bret ever trust Shawn again? Could he trust Vince? Then you factor in Triple H by this time, he's married to Stephanie and has a shit ton of stroke. He had more stroke than Shawn, still does, but back then, way more as well.

    It would have been CRAZY.

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    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    This thread reminded me I still have Bret’s “Hitman” book Rosk gave me for a Secret Santa years ago and I really should read it.

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    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    Oh you bloody should, Badge. As good as Foley’s and Jericho’s first for me. Yes, he’s a bit of a moaner and takes himself too seriously, but he’s 100% honest and was at his peak when wrestling was hot. And man, good and bad, he’s got stories to tell.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    Oh you bloody should, Badge. As good as Foley’s and Jericho’s first for me. Yes, he’s a bit of a moaner and takes himself too seriously, but he’s 100% honest and was at his peak when wrestling was hot. And man, good and bad, he’s got stories to tell.
    This is the truth. The more I've read it the more I like to pick out Bret's more moany statements. I used to work at a ice cream shop and that's the book I would read in my down time. I really enjoyed the Stampede section and his early WWF run stuff. Definatley worth reading a couple times just to really let all the stories sink in.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    On earlier topics I feel like Bret would have just sat out his contract. I would have loved to see Angle vs. Bret though. It would have been so great. During the last Wilfred's I picked Austin vs. Hogan for a dream match I'd set up with a time machine but, dam, I really wanted to pick Bret vs. Angle and put it on the WM X-8 card. As big as that crowd made Hogan vs. Rock I feel like they would have been just as hot for Bret vs. Angle.

    Then all the other matches like Edge, Jericho, Guerrero, Christian, Mysterio and maybe even get the Bret vs. Hogan WWF match they never had. A match with The Rock also could have been great (I know they wrestled when Rock was still Rocky Maivia but still plenty to work with there). Plus, the Bret vs. Austin feud never got a proper finish so thats something that could have happened too. Then, like ND mentioned, Shawn's return and HHH's rise to power surely would have provided some intense TV. Just thinking of HHH and HBK feuding with a new group of wrestlers led by Bret could have been off the charts.
    Last edited by Jarrod1983; September 4th, 2019 at 9:16 PM.

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    I'm just wondering if somehow he would have said fuck you WWE and joined TNA like Sting did....Imagine Bret v AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Angle, Christian, Jeff Hardy, Sabu, Monty Brown, Black Machismo, Daniels, Sabin, Bully Ray, Nash, Foley, hell even Hogan came through there.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Bret would have made Monty Brown look awesome. I always thought Monty should have had won their title at least once. I was disappointed he didn't do more in WWE.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod1983 View Post
    Bret would have made Monty Brown look awesome. I always thought Monty should have had won their title at least once. I was disappointed he didn't do more in WWE.
    Monty Brown was the shit. I think what happened with him was that right as he was about to explode on to the main event scene, Christian and Sting signed. So they put the belt on Jarrett, and by they I mean Jeff lol, then turned Monty Brown heel and had him align with Jarrett and AMW/Gail Kim. Stupid move.

    But yeah....Bret Hart in TNA, when he more than likely would still be able to go (he'd be about 44-45 when TNA first started in 2001), it'd be pretty cool.

    God damn, I didn't realize Bret was getting up there in wrestling age when he won his first World title. He was 36-37ish.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Yeah, Christian going to TNA was a hot topic. I remember being super excited to see Christian not be held down. I don't know why WWE put the brakes on Christian and Tomko. To me this is the second best cocky heel/huge bodyguard combo ever (HBK & Diesel being #1 but did I even need to say that?). Christian going to Smackdown stalled everything he was growing in the first half of the year.

    Monty definatley got the raw end of the stick. I can understand the hot hand with Christian but Dam Monty should have got that belt in 04. I vaguely remember him getting a shot at Jarrett somewhere in that long reign he had. The Pounce was awesome and even a couple month run could have been fun. Most the reigns at that time didn't last long unless your name was Jarrett if I remember correctly so what's the harm in giving some gold to "The Alpha Male".

    Bret at a healthy 44-45 would still be able to put on a nice physical Stampede style match. It's too bad he had to retire because he could have had great matches with a bunch of people.

    Yeah Bret wasn't super young but it was The New Generation! He just had that young guy look. He had been running strong in WWF since 1984 and didn't take a huge block of time off until 1996. Bret was a stud that rocked that exhaustive 80s schedule with that hard as a rock WWF ring. Tag team specialist, Intercontinental work horse or World Champion top guy, Bret was the best. My opinion of course and obviously not everyone agrees but I grew up on The Hitman and, even if he's a moany, old, crotchety grandpa now I still enjoy it when he appears. It's too bad he's more fragile than Elijah Price because I'd still love to see Bret tag with some young kid and get to throw some European Uppercuts and then lock in a Sharpshooter.

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    My dad pinned Mr Backlund Kneeneighbor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    Monty Brown was the shit. I think what happened with him was that right as he was about to explode on to the main event scene, Christian and Sting signed. So they put the belt on Jarrett, and by they I mean Jeff lol, then turned Monty Brown heel and had him align with Jarrett and AMW/Gail Kim. Stupid move.

    But yeah....Bret Hart in TNA, when he more than likely would still be able to go (he'd be about 44-45 when TNA first started in 2001), it'd be pretty cool.

    God damn, I didn't realize Bret was getting up there in wrestling age when he won his first World title. He was 36-37ish.
    Spent a lot of time fucking about in the tag scene.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kneeneighbor View Post
    Spent a lot of time fucking about in the tag scene.
    That and I keep forgetting he had an entire run with his dad's promotion Stampede starting in the late 70's. I saw some old ass matches with him and Dynamite Kid that were very good, matches that you could see today in 2019 and not think "oh this is such an old style of wrestling". Mat based sure, but still very active for that period (I think these were like 1982-1984ish)

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    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    Stampede was years ahead of it's time. Shame Bret owns the footage, right? I'd watch some of that on the Network.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    I believe Bret does own it. I remember there being some episodes on the network a few years back but then they got taken down pretty soon after they got put up.
    Last edited by Jarrod1983; September 6th, 2019 at 5:16 PM.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Yeah that sounds like that was the case. WWE thought they owned it, then Bret proved he actually owned it. But a few months ago they put up the "pilot" for the reboot of Stampede from 1999 which I remember being kind of a big deal at the time on the underground. I guess they've put up matches from back in the day on the Network and DVD releases since, but they don't feature Bret so there must be some kind of arrangement where they can use certain footage.

    I know for a fact one of the Ladder match DVDs has Jake the Snake in a ladder match from Stampede, I think against Bad News Brown haha.

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    Main Eventer Horatio's Avatar
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    Just watched Bret vs Austin from IYH: Revenge of the Taker and it was GREAT.

    It was funny to hear McMahon on commentary for it. He was mearly smitten with Austin at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by corinoismybestfriend View Post
    Just watched Bret vs Austin from IYH: Revenge of the Taker and it was GREAT.

    It was funny to hear McMahon on commentary for it. He was mearly smitten with Austin at this point.
    That's one of their matches I forgot all about.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by corinoismybestfriend View Post
    Just watched Bret vs Austin from IYH: Revenge of the Taker and it was GREAT.

    It was funny to hear McMahon on commentary for it. He was mearly smitten with Austin at this point.
    I haven't watched this one in a long time but maybe I'll take a gander at it tonight. I do remember this is right before Bret's knee work because Bret's knee was beyond fucked at this point. Still working through it though because Bret was a tough, dedicated son of a gun.

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    Main Eventer Horatio's Avatar
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    I thought the knee injury was a work considering how Bret worked that night.
    Kind of mind boggling is the finish was almost exactly the same as the Montreal screwjob, which both Michaels and Russo have taken credit for since then...

    The match makes me want to look at their Survivor Series match again

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    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    Revenge of Taker match was great. Hurt by the false finish, but great. And of course, totally different with the roles reversed.

    Got a lot of love for that PPV. The first In Your House show to be shown in the UK.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by corinoismybestfriend View Post
    I thought the knee injury was a work considering how Bret worked that night.
    Kind of mind boggling is the finish was almost exactly the same as the Montreal screwjob, which both Michaels and Russo have taken credit for since then...

    The match makes me want to look at their Survivor Series match again
    In Bret's book he was going to have surgery before the show. He said it was supposed to be a match vs. Sid but Sid was hurt too so Vince changed it to vs. Austin. Bret also said something like the PPV was in danger of tanking and Vince really needed him to be there. That's why the night after they had the Street Fight that wrote him off TV. Bret wrote that the surgery was supposed to keep him on the shelf six months but Vince told him if he gets healthy at KOTR he'd wrestle Shawn and win. Of course those Bret's writings so who knows but I'd definatley wager the knee injury was real.

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    I never understood why Bret was so adamant about beating Shawn. Shawn I think...counting tag team matches...has only defeated Bret 3 times. Bret on the other hand has beaten Shawn like 400 times lol.

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    Another thing in Bret's book he talked about was how he always thought Shawn would be the man after Bret was done. Maybe he just wanted to eeke out more time on top like a lot of top people do. Bret wrote about it way before he was champion though. Almost like he knew he and Shawn would out last most the late 80s-early 90s rosters. Hell I think Bret dodged dropping that I-C belt to Shawn too. Bret wrote in his book when Bret won the title off Piper Vince pretty much told him that Shawn would win it off him sometime in the fall which Bret says in the book he was fine with. Conveniently Bret had the idea to drop it to Bulldog in England instead and then have Bulldog drop it to Shawn. A top Bret and Bulldog moment for sure and glad it happened but in the back of my brain I always thought was Bret dodging Shawn there?

    One thing was for sure, there was no way Bret was leaving WMXII with that title. Nobody to hot potato around with that time either. I loved them both as a kid and that Iron Man Match I looked forward to greatly. Sadly, no amount of begging would get me that PPV that month and I had to wait until Raw to see who won. I just knew Shawn had but never thought it would be 1-0. Still a great match to watch though. In the story though I always felt Bret got ripped off. The man didn't get beat in 60 minutes! Should have been a draw with Bret retaining! I even remember writing WWF magazine with a question to President Monsoon about why he changed the rules last second and cost Bret the belt?!? Didn't get published though, the bastards!

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    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I never understood why Bret was so adamant about beating Shawn. Shawn I think...counting tag team matches...has only defeated Bret 3 times. Bret on the other hand has beaten Shawn like 400 times lol.
    Because it was in Canada lol!

    I'm about a quarter of the way through the book, and though it seems that first that Julie was portrayed like a neurotic and paranoid bitch at times like chucking her ring away, Bret didn't help himself succumbing to peer pressure by having himself rubbed down by Japanese pussy.

    Fair enough on his honesty though. Also I love the Dynamite Kid anecdotes.
    Last edited by Badger; September 8th, 2019 at 6:38 PM.

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    Yeah Bret didn't pull any punches with his wandering eye. Julie didn't seem to help herself out though.

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    I listened to the Martha Hart episode of Jericho's podcast today. It was pretty good. Nice to hear some of her side on things. I'm looking forward to the Dark Side on Owen but don't have Vice so need to wait for it to hit YouTube. I'm looking for rare matches of Owen to watch over the next few days. Suggestions? I wouldn't even mind watching and discussing with people if anyone is interested. Owen was always one of my favorites.

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    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    I haven’t listened to the podcast but the bits and pieces I’ve read on the main page today, the way the WWE lawyer puts it that Martha seemed to be involved in a bit of subterfuge and she’s throwing Bret under the bus a bit directing heat at him unnecessarily. WWE fucked up and it will never be completely right but I dunno seems to me like Martha may be holding on a bit.

    I’ll check this out though and maybe my viewpoint will change.

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    For sure. I remember how she sorta hung Bret out to dry a bit when it came to the lawsuits. I'm curious to read Martha's book now too. I don't know if I believe everything she's said but am wondering what Martha has to say.

    One of the main parts I took away from the podcast was how Owen's kids have turned out. Both seem to have done well for themselves, which is great.

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    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    I’m willing to bet it will not be flattering to Bret in any way. She has a right to be hurt and angry over what happened to Owen but from what I’ve read so far is that Bret should not be her focus. He said himself if he was there he would not have allowed that stunt to have happened. She never liked the wrestling biz and possibly may be forgetting that Bret also got screwed over really badly.

    Great that Owen’s kids are doing well though.

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    Agreed 100 percent. Bret has pretty much said Martha is trying to erase Owen's legacy. One thing that was really good in the podcast was Jericho's questions. I feel like he, in a non agressive way, kept pushing about how great Owen was and how Owen should be celebrated. Dark Side will be interesting to watch for sure.

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    You know, Bret says he wouldn't have let that stunt happen but I'll do him one better:

    If Bret was still there, which he should have still been there, Owen Hart would have had a totally different path. There would have been no "Sole Survivor", no Owen in the Nation, no Owen/Jeff Jarrett tag-team, and no return of the Blue Blazer. That's just my opinion.

    I honestly think Bret is the type of man who sits there and thinks, fuck, had I just not been all about the money like everyone I talked shit (and still talk shit) about that took the money and left Vince high and dry during a time he really needed them. And he REALLLLY needed Bret in late 1997 going forward. Especially in hindsight when you think, fuck, Shawn was out within 5 months, you know damn well who Austin v. Bret for the World title was going to happen in 1998 without a doubt.

    But he took the money and he can say "If I was there that stunt wouldn't have happened" but he doesn't know that. It just helps him sleep at night. I know I would be saying all types of shit if I were in his shoes especially if I felt responsible in any way no matter how absurd that burden is to carry.

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    If I was Owens wife, I'd want his career to be celebrated, but not by WWE, the company that created the stunt that killed my husband. But since that same company owns all of his footage, then I'd be in the same boat as Martha and not want anything to do with the WWE.

    Bret shouldn't blame himself or have to say anything to help himself sleep at night.

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    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    You know, Bret says he wouldn't have let that stunt happen but I'll do him one better:

    If Bret was still there, which he should have still been there, Owen Hart would have had a totally different path. There would have been no "Sole Survivor", no Owen in the Nation, no Owen/Jeff Jarrett tag-team, and no return of the Blue Blazer. That's just my opinion.

    I honestly think Bret is the type of man who sits there and thinks, fuck, had I just not been all about the money like everyone I talked shit (and still talk shit) about that took the money and left Vince high and dry during a time he really needed them. And he REALLLLY needed Bret in late 1997 going forward. Especially in hindsight when you think, fuck, Shawn was out within 5 months, you know damn well who Austin v. Bret for the World title was going to happen in 1998 without a doubt.

    But he took the money and he can say "If I was there that stunt wouldn't have happened" but he doesn't know that. It just helps him sleep at night. I know I would be saying all types of shit if I were in his shoes especially if I felt responsible in any way no matter how absurd that burden is to carry.
    Totally get your points and hindsight is very much 20/20 in these kind of situations . However Vince did guarantee Bret that money initially but ultimately Vince cashed a cheque he could not cash. I’m no Zen Bret fanboy here but really Bret himself wanted to stay but Vince was practically pushing him out the door.

    Could Bret have actually prevented that from happening if he was still there? We will never know but at the very least it could have been one potential strong voice in Vince’s ear who could have at least maybe swayed it.

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    It's not like WWE ever wants someone to die on their watch. From what I've read they did a lot to try to move forward with doing what was right.

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    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald View Post
    It's not like WWE ever wants someone to die on their watch. From what I've read they did a lot to try to move forward with doing what was right.
    I think they have but Martha won’t let go. It’s sad but that’s her prerogative and I doubt that will ever change.

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    Goddamn, DSOTR was heartbreaking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    I think they have but Martha won’t let go. It’s sad but that’s her prerogative and I doubt that will ever change.
    Based on listening to her on Jericho's podcast and Dark Side of the Ring, she's not going to change her tune. I honestly found the Jericho pod more interesting and enlightening, but that's likely due to the streamline narrative from Martha's side coming out through the pod. It was good to hear the perspective from the children in DSOTR and the overall presentation, but it felt like much more was covered in the pod.

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    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BGMaverick
    Based on listening to her on Jericho's podcast and Dark Side of the Ring, she's not going to change her tune. I honestly found the Jericho pod more interesting and enlightening, but that's likely due to the streamline narrative from Martha's side coming out through the pod. It was good to hear the perspective from the children in DSOTR and the overall presentation, but it felt like much more was covered in the pod.
    As I thought. Will check the podcast first.
    Last edited by Badger; May 20th, 2020 at 12:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    You know, Bret says he wouldn't have let that stunt happen but I'll do him one better:

    If Bret was still there, which he should have still been there, Owen Hart would have had a totally different path. There would have been no "Sole Survivor", no Owen in the Nation, no Owen/Jeff Jarrett tag-team, and no return of the Blue Blazer. That's just my opinion.

    I honestly think Bret is the type of man who sits there and thinks, fuck, had I just not been all about the money like everyone I talked shit (and still talk shit) about that took the money and left Vince high and dry during a time he really needed them. And he REALLLLY needed Bret in late 1997 going forward. Especially in hindsight when you think, fuck, Shawn was out within 5 months, you know damn well who Austin v. Bret for the World title was going to happen in 1998 without a doubt.

    But he took the money and he can say "If I was there that stunt wouldn't have happened" but he doesn't know that. It just helps him sleep at night. I know I would be saying all types of shit if I were in his shoes especially if I felt responsible in any way no matter how absurd that burden is to carry.
    I completely agree about Bret being in line to take a Stunner if he stayed. Bret/Austin was unfinished and easily could have been reignited. Along with how Owen's path shakes out, then there is no evil McMahon character. Bret leaving really did send a ripple through what would have happened in wrestling.

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    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Bret leaving and the way things turned out was a happy accident in a lot of ways but Vince still pushed him out the door really.

    The one point I will give Vince over Bret was him saying WCW did not how to use a Bret and he was bang on, Bret himself says so. Still though, Vince made false promises.

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    I think we have to put ourselves in Vince's shoes. Was it false promises? Maybe. The fact he had to offer Bret that kind of contract in the first place felt like a panic move. The reality is, if Bret really wanted to stay, then he should have told Vince he would re-work the deal and stay. But ultimately it's about money, and Bret can talk about how he was this loyal guy but the truth is, he wasn't. He has always wanted what everyone else has so he did what everyone else on his level seemed to be doing and that's going to WCW for crazy money and barely any dates.....And there was a price for taking those deals. Bret's life, his family's life, would be TOTALLY different if he just stayed and worked out a deal.

    Shit I remember being 15-16 at the time and reading about that deal and even I knew that was just crazy when WWF were almost going out of business. Even Bret should have been smarter, but he probably figured at least he'll get that million a year even though he really didn't deserve it.

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    Starting Owen's Dark Side now.

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    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I think we have to put ourselves in Vince's shoes. Was it false promises? Maybe. The fact he had to offer Bret that kind of contract in the first place felt like a panic move. The reality is, if Bret really wanted to stay, then he should have told Vince he would re-work the deal and stay. But ultimately it's about money, and Bret can talk about how he was this loyal guy but the truth is, he wasn't. He has always wanted what everyone else has so he did what everyone else on his level seemed to be doing and that's going to WCW for crazy money and barely any dates.....And there was a price for taking those deals. Bret's life, his family's life, would be TOTALLY different if he just stayed and worked out a deal.

    Shit I remember being 15-16 at the time and reading about that deal and even I knew that was just crazy when WWF were almost going out of business. Even Bret should have been smarter, but he probably figured at least he'll get that million a year even though he really didn't deserve it.
    This may just be reading his book and there are two sides but he didn't strike me as the guy who was trying to hang Vince by a hook wanting money while readilyn prepared to go e,sewhere. Nothing wrong with wanting the best and the most money, hell I think most would want that but I'm not sure if it's as clear cut as you're making it out.

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    Great episode. I blubbered like a baby. They really do a wonderful job editing it to really pull at your heart strings.

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    I've literally just seen part 1 of the Benoit one, but I really want to watch them all.

    One on Owen will be hard for me to watch. Same for everyone, I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    This may just be reading his book and there are two sides but he didn't strike me as the guy who was trying to hang Vince by a hook wanting money while readilyn prepared to go e,sewhere. Nothing wrong with wanting the best and the most money, hell I think most would want that but I'm not sure if it's as clear cut as you're making it out.
    Yeah, Bret wrote he was waiting and waiting that last day they could negotiate to talk to Vince but Vince kept putting him off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    This may just be reading his book and there are two sides but he didn't strike me as the guy who was trying to hang Vince by a hook wanting money while readilyn prepared to go e,sewhere. Nothing wrong with wanting the best and the most money, hell I think most would want that but I'm not sure if it's as clear cut as you're making it out.
    I mean it's all documented on Wrestling With Shadows. Even before that with WM 12 and how he was supposedly talking to WCW while he was away nursing his butthurt injury for finally having to put Shawn over after 10 years of Shawn jobbing to Bret.

    Yes, Bret deserved to be the top paid guy in the company at the time but you go watch Wrestling with Shadows and he makes it very clear that it was all about money. But inside of that is the fact that I think Bret saw that he was almost 40 and at that time, guys didn't really get a spot at 40+ in the WWF. That's a concept that grew after Austin and Rock left. Ultimately Bret probably should have realized that it was easier to navigate the political waters in the WWF being so close to Vince and having his own crew of top guys as opposed to WCW with those mega draws and political beasts like Flair, Hogan, Nash, etc.

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    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I mean it's all documented on Wrestling With Shadows. Even before that with WM 12 and how he was supposedly talking to WCW while he was away nursing his butthurt injury for finally having to put Shawn over after 10 years of Shawn jobbing to Bret.

    Yes, Bret deserved to be the top paid guy in the company at the time but you go watch Wrestling with Shadows and he makes it very clear that it was all about money. But inside of that is the fact that I think Bret saw that he was almost 40 and at that time, guys didn't really get a spot at 40+ in the WWF. That's a concept that grew after Austin and Rock left. Ultimately Bret probably should have realized that it was easier to navigate the political waters in the WWF being so close to Vince and having his own crew of top guys as opposed to WCW with those mega draws and political beasts like Flair, Hogan, Nash, etc.
    At least Bret did the job as opposed to Shawn “losing his smile.”

    Bret could’ve navigated the political waters but he chose not to unlike Shawn.

    Like I say I’m no a Bret fanboy and blames for all parties involved. Objectively speaking, parties were at fault and I think you’re being harsh on Bret.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    At least Bret did the job as opposed to Shawn “losing his smile.”

    Bret could’ve navigated the political waters but he chose not to unlike Shawn.

    Like I say I’m no a Bret fanboy and blames for all parties involved. Objectively speaking, parties were at fault and I think you’re being harsh on Bret.
    1 job compared to how many Shawn did and you're pulling out the "losing his smile" card? Lol. Yeah, Bret did the job and left for what, 7 months? Having to put Shawn over fucked him up so bad he started negotiating supposedly with WCW. That's someone who is insecure as fuck. Shawn thought he was going to retire on a bad knee and came back within 3-4 months. And when Shawn was barely able to walk, he did the right thing and put on a great match with Austin, putting Austin over.

    Yeah Bret chose to try and navigate the political waters of WCW where half the main event hated him. So he basically did a cannonball into a shark pit covered in chum.

    Am I being harsh on Bret? Not really. This is Bret, this isn't a guy who minces words and said Triple H wasn't a top 1,000 wrestler and never introduced a new move even though nobody was doing the pedigree yet Sting was already doing the Sharpshooter.....I'm just being honest, that imo, if Bret took less money and stayed in the WWF his life would be totally different. Sometimes money isn't the answer and this guy has gone around for 20+ years on a high horse like he's someone how different than Hogan, Shawn, and whoever else he's buried.

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    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    1 job compared to how many Shawn did and you're pulling out the "losing his smile" card? Lol. Yeah, Bret did the job and left for what, 7 months? Having to put Shawn over fucked him up so bad he started negotiating supposedly with WCW. That's someone who is insecure as fuck. Shawn thought he was going to retire on a bad knee and came back within 3-4 months. And when Shawn was barely able to walk, he did the right thing and put on a great match with Austin, putting Austin over.

    Yeah Bret chose to try and navigate the political waters of WCW where half the main event hated him. So he basically did a cannonball into a shark pit covered in chum.

    Am I being harsh on Bret? Not really. This is Bret, this isn't a guy who minces words and said Triple H wasn't a top 1,000 wrestler and never introduced a new move even though nobody was doing the pedigree yet Sting was already doing the Sharpshooter.....I'm just being honest, that imo, if Bret took less money and stayed in the WWF his life would be totally different. Sometimes money isn't the answer and this guy has gone around for 20+ years on a high horse like he's someone how different than Hogan, Shawn, and whoever else he's buried.
    Shawn took some cajoling to do that loss though supposedly (not saying as fact). He did screw Vader and was generally a pain in the arse back then too making coked up comments without Bretís approval. Point really neither of them were angels back then. You say Bret couldíve tried harder but Vince also fucked him around as Jarrod pointed out.

    Iíve given Bret my criticisms in his phrase and the HHH comment was I agree out of order. Just think there should be objectivity a bit here. Difficult situation for all and Bret gave many alternatives except losing to Shawn at Survivor Series. Vince lied and Shawn lied. Bret was not going anywhere with that title. It borne Mr McMahon out of happy coincidence but it still did not need to happen.

    Bret did not screw Bret in my opinion. Youíll probably disagree but hey least we got a discussion.

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    Bret always wanted that Hulk money.

    Bret toiled away in the 80s making every meat head or talented performer look good. Bret worked with everyone, usually losing. Bret finally breaks through to the main event and then has his steam stopped by Hulk. Then Bret has to take a back seat to Lex Luger. Bret has a limited time to shine then right back to the back seat for Diesel. Bret wins the title just to be penciled in to lose it to Shawn. Bret never got that Hulk spotlight and I think it continued to eat away at Bret. Bret just wanted his time too and was willing to work with Shawn but things just deteriorated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Shawn took some cajoling to do that loss though supposedly (not saying as fact). He did screw Vader and was generally a pain in the arse back then too making coked up comments without Bret’s approval. Point really neither of them were angels back then. You say Bret could’ve tried harder but Vince also fucked him around as Jarrod pointed out.

    I’ve given Bret my criticisms in his phrase and the HHH comment was I agree out of order. Just think there should be objectivity a bit here. Difficult situation for all and Bret gave many alternatives except losing to Shawn at Survivor Series. Vince lied and Shawn lied. Bret was not going anywhere with that title. It borne Mr McMahon out of happy coincidence but it still did not need to happen.

    Bret did not screw Bret in my opinion. You’ll probably disagree but hey least we got a discussion.
    There is objectivity and keep in mind you decided to insert Shawn for some odd reason when I was specifically talking about Bret and his decisions.

    Bret did screw Bret. Who forced his hand? Who signed the WCW deal? Who didn't go ok, if you can't pay me, what can you pay me and I'll stay because you're right, WCW is full of people at the top who fucking hate me. But naw, it was WCW is willing to pay me this and I know you can't match it so I'm going to say fuck you and go anyway.

    Oh, and I'm also not losing to the guy we've been building to for me to lose because he said he wouldn't put me over....Despite Shawn putting Hart over constantly since The Rockers. Let's not forget that The Hart Foundation were such cunts that they weren't willing to re-shoot the 2-3 falls match The Rockers won and instead denied the Rocker their only tag-team title run they deserved.

    Bret screwed Bret because he literally thought he was bigger than the business. Not even Hogan made that mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod1983 View Post
    Bret always wanted that Hulk money.

    Bret toiled away in the 80s making every meat head or talented performer look good. Bret worked with everyone, usually losing. Bret finally breaks through to the main event and then has his steam stopped by Hulk. Then Bret has to take a back seat to Lex Luger. Bret has a limited time to shine then right back to the back seat for Diesel. Bret wins the title just to be penciled in to lose it to Shawn. Bret never got that Hulk spotlight and I think it continued to eat away at Bret. Bret just wanted his time too and was willing to work with Shawn but things just deteriorated.
    I think Bret was always jealous of Shawn and knew Shawn was better than him. He hated that Vince saw it too. He was probably the guy telling Vince "Shawn will never be a babyface!" Then when Shawn started getting bigger pops than Diesel and Bret, Vince changed his tune.

  65. #65
    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Inserted Shawn because he is part of the story. Very much beg to differ on Bret being “jealous.” He put over just about everyone he worked with. Shawn was a prick back then and he says that himself. He and the Kliq pulled all the strings behind the scenes.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    I've seen Bret say in interviews that Shawn would be the next guy after Bret. Bret just wanted his slice too and didn't want to be left out in the cold so to speak.

    Shawn did get some insane pops. Guy oozed electricity.

    As much as I love Bret, you could be onto something with Bret pushing Vince to keep Shawn heel. Looking back on it, I always thought Bret pushing to drop the I-C title to Bulldog instead of Shawn was interesting. Then they had that mediocre Survivor Series 92 match. Bret says Shawn wanted to go slower because Shawn wasn't in as good of shape as Shawn wanted to be in. Might be true, might not be. They'd eventually gel but there might always have been tension there. Like I said when I started, Bret always saw Shawn as the guy after so who knows how Bret felt then and what he'd do to keep his spot after years and years of jobbing to guys like Dino Bravo, Tom Magee etc.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Inserted Shawn because he is part of the story. Very much beg to differ on Bret being “jealous.” He put over just about everyone he worked with. Shawn was a prick back then and he says that himself. He and the Kliq pulled all the strings behind the scenes.
    Very true too. Shawn is the first to admit what a prick he used to be.

    I grew up on both of these guys. Hart Foundation and The Rockers. Bret was my number one. Shawn was my number two. I actually stopped watching after Survivor Series 97 because they were my favs. That didn't last too long though but I did take a few months off.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Yeah Shawn became a prick around 1995. He was putting Bret over constantly. How difficult is it to put someone over just once without making a big dramatic crybaby bitchfest about it? Shawn did the job all the time in the tags, jobbed to Bret on several ppvs (Survivor Series 2 years in a row)....And the 1 time Bret had to put Shawn over what happened? He left and went and started sending out feelers to rival WCW.

    Why? Because he was jealous as fuck. The guy sounds like an ex-bf. And that was always the thing people would say, that Bret and Shawn were like 2 brothers fighting for their father's attention. And maybe Bret just felt like because he was the man for a little bit that he was the same level as Hogan and since Hogan would do what the fuck he wanted Bret probably felt the same, idk.

    What I do know is that prick or not, you do business. Shawn being a dick is irrelevant when Bret's reputation wasn't exactly any better. I'm glad they were both gone to be honest because when they left the company thrived even more when they were measuring dicks.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    To be honest, I don't remember a lot of Shawn being pinned or submitting to Bret. Series 92 for sure, but Series 93 Shawn lost by count out. Shawn made Stu look great selling that punch that night in Boston Garden. I don't recall Bret really doing anything that made him look superior to HBK that night.

    The tag matches I've seen between Rockers/Hart Foundation I remember a time limit draw and a double DQ because of Demolition interference.

    I'm sure there were house show jobs (especially during Bret's I-C title reign) but on television I don't recall Bret really sticking it to Shawn all that much.

    If your champion then that's what to be expected anyways, that people should help make you. Shawn shouldn't have held old jobs against Bret.

    Bret did take time off of TV (Bret still worked European bookings in that time) after he lost to Shawn. Bret ran hard from 84-96 and it was time. Bret needed to step aside so Shawn's star could shine brightest. Time off also helped stir up anticipation for that eventual Bret/Shawn rematch.

    Bret should have lost the title the right way on his way out. Shawn should have shown some humbleness when Bret said he was happy to put Shawn over a few weeks out from SS97. Instead, Shawn said, in front of the boys, he would never do the same for Bret. As a fan, I love them both. I think they were both wrong though.

  70. #70
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod1983 View Post
    To be honest, I don't remember a lot of Shawn being pinned or submitting to Bret. Series 92 for sure, but Series 93 Shawn lost by count out. Shawn made Stu look great selling that punch that night in Boston Garden. I don't recall Bret really doing anything that made him look superior to HBK that night.

    The tag matches I've seen between Rockers/Hart Foundation I remember a time limit draw and a double DQ because of Demolition interference.

    I'm sure there were house show jobs (especially during Bret's I-C title reign) but on television I don't recall Bret really sticking it to Shawn all that much.

    If your champion then that's what to be expected anyways, that people should help make you. Shawn shouldn't have held old jobs against Bret.

    Bret did take time off of TV (Bret still worked European bookings in that time) after he lost to Shawn. Bret ran hard from 84-96 and it was time. Bret needed to step aside so Shawn's star could shine brightest. Time off also helped stir up anticipation for that eventual Bret/Shawn rematch.

    Bret should have lost the title the right way on his way out. Shawn should have shown some humbleness when Bret said he was happy to put Shawn over a few weeks out from SS97. Instead, Shawn said, in front of the boys, he would never do the same for Bret. As a fan, I love them both. I think they were both wrong though.
    The funny thing is, so what if Shawn said that? Bret was leaving, and had done the job plenty of times for Bret over the years. Bret saying that was so backhanded. Like Shawn needed Bret to even say that when Bret's on his way out to the competition like a sellout. What was Shawn supposed to say? Gee thanks Mr. Hart!

    Again, you want Shawn to be humble in this situation...what about Bret? That's pretty arrogant to come up to a guy who's only had 1 victory over you in 10+ years and say "I'd put you over!" Yeah, and when you finally did....YOU LEFT LOL. And it wasn't "I need time off" because why was he talking to WCW? Listen to him talk about the build to WM 12. It's ridiculous.

    And I said he did the job all the time. Pin, submission, countout, DQ, doesn't matter. And what about them not wanting to re-shoot the tag-title loss to The Rockers and just act like the title change never happened? That's cold and we all know it.

    If you ever listen to Bret it's like wow, this man apparently never did anything wrong.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Exactly. Bret was leaving so would it have killed Shawn to say, thanks Bret. Apparently so. Bret was trying to smoothe things over. Trying to be the leader he viewed himself to be. Shawn knows he's leaving, swallow your pride, do the right thing for Vince and the company you work for and get the match in the ring. That's what Shawn, being the guy who is staying in the WWF, should have done. My opinion.

    Bret could and can be arrogant. Like I said though jobbing to people that are clearly not in your league for years then getting a taste of the other side could make someone want more.

    Sure, Bret tested the waters else where. He had a bunch of kids and a wife. You'd want to make that cash too.

    The build for Bret as a champion on the way to WMXII was lackluster. Bret had a legit gripe there. Any champion in that spot, getting that treatment, would have been pissed.

    I understand a loss is a loss but a DQ isn't exactly like crying for mercy in The Sharshooter. The matches were always competitive too.

    I always thought Vince was the reason for The Rockers not getting the tag titles. I thought Vince changed tunes for whatever Vince reason and went with The Nasty Boys instead. Believe me, I'm a huge Rockers fan (I have a door flag tapestry of Shawn and Marty from 1990 on the back of my man cave door that drives my wife nuts!) and always thought they should have had a run but put that more on Vince than Bret. Bret really didn't have huge stroke then and even wrote about arguing with the referee to stop the match and fix the rope that broke. It was a taped match so could have been edited later. I will concede that instead of trying to make the match work, Bret looked like he put a pity face on. Bret did say he wanted to make the match as great as possible so that might have been the reason for the look.

    I'm not in denial about how Bret sounds now. It's sad but he's still my number one.

  72. #72
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod1983 View Post
    Exactly. Bret was leaving so would it have killed Shawn to say, thanks Bret. Apparently so. Bret was trying to smoothe things over. Trying to be the leader he viewed himself to be. Shawn knows he's leaving, swallow your pride, do the right thing for Vince and the company you work for and get the match in the ring. That's what Shawn, being the guy who is staying in the WWF, should have done. My opinion.

    Bret could and can be arrogant. Like I said though jobbing to people that are clearly not in your league for years then getting a taste of the other side could make someone want more.

    Sure, Bret tested the waters else where. He had a bunch of kids and a wife. You'd want to make that cash too.

    The build for Bret as a champion on the way to WMXII was lackluster. Bret had a legit gripe there. Any champion in that spot, getting that treatment, would have been pissed.

    I understand a loss is a loss but a DQ isn't exactly like crying for mercy in The Sharshooter. The matches were always competitive too.

    I always thought Vince was the reason for The Rockers not getting the tag titles. I thought Vince changed tunes for whatever Vince reason and went with The Nasty Boys instead. Believe me, I'm a huge Rockers fan (I have a door flag tapestry of Shawn and Marty from 1990 on the back of my man cave door that drives my wife nuts!) and always thought they should have had a run but put that more on Vince than Bret. Bret really didn't have huge stroke then and even wrote about arguing with the referee to stop the match and fix the rope that broke. It was a taped match so could have been edited later. I will concede that instead of trying to make the match work, Bret looked like he put a pity face on. Bret did say he wanted to make the match as great as possible so that might have been the reason for the look.

    I'm not in denial about how Bret sounds now. It's sad but he's still my number one.
    The match was going to happen, that's what the WWF were building toward with Bret's upcoming exit. Shawn v. Bret at Survivor Series. The fact it was in Montreal means nothing as they book those venues about a year in advance so I doubt at SS 1996 Bret knew he was going to leave to WCW.

    I disagree about the build toward Mania 12. Personally, I think both guys looked corny but Bret saying it was done in a way to make him look old and weak compared to the younger Shawn, that just seems like more Bret taking himself wayyyy too seriously. *This is the guy who said he was supposedly going to tap out the Ultimate Warrior at Royal Rumble*

    Again, competitive or not, crying in agony over the Sharpshooter, etc. means what when you're still losing?

    Bret didn't "test the waters". He knew what he was doing. He left Vince when Vince needed stars and all anyone has to do is watch Wrestling With Shadows. Bret isn't trying to budge at all and the narrative that he spins where he didn't want to go to WCW is just comical. If you didn't want to go to WCW why did you go? I mean at least Bret admits it's a mistake after piling on all these other factors.

    No, The Rockers won the tag-team titles in a 2-3 falls match that was supposed to air on SNME. The top rope broke I think in the 2nd fall and they continued with The Rockers winning the gold. They wound up not airing the match and apparently the Hart Foundation bitched and Vince decided not to re-shoot the match and leave the belts on the Hart Foundation. Shawn does a good job of talking about this incident and how it was one of the first times he noticed Bret kind of politicing his way over Shawn back in the day.

    The fucked up thing is I do like Bret and respect his work , dude is a beast and a legend and lives up to his nicknames. I just wish people including Bret himself understood that just because did his fucked up shit in a louder way doesn't Bret is a saint. It's not a contest, that's why it was weird he was even inserted so heavily into the conversation early on.

  73. #73
    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    There’s been other explanations for the aborted title change too, like they were going to drop the belts when Neidhart was going to leave but they came to an agreement. Also simply the match being so bad they didn’t want to air it but they were promised they’d get the titles again but it never materialised. We’ll never know the real reason.

  74. #74
    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    I never even brought up Montreal. I firmly believe it doesn't matter if you're in your home town or home country. If it's time to look at the lights then it's time.

    I'm just saying maybe Shawn should have bottled some of that piss and vinegar for some other time, some other opponent or even a tell all promo.

    The build to WMXII had Bret running slower than my 260 pound ass and had him getting stretched by senior citizen Stu. Bret barely survived Undertaker, then Diesel in Title matches because of the two interfering. Bret was a place holder until Shawn wins the title (rightfully so, Shawn was on firrrre) but that doesn't mean the champion should be over looked. The better Bret looks during his reign, the better Shawn looks when he finally wins. Shawn meanwhile is running stairs in stadiums and just flying around with flying forearms, hurrincanranas and Sweet Chin Musics etc on a bunch of guys while Jose teaches from a far (I didn't see old ass Lothario stretching or hitting Shawn). Shawns turning the incident in Syracuse into a positive with the angle with Owen on Raw, returning to the Rumble to win (dumping Vader & Yoko at the same time in the middle of the match, shine him up Vince!) and then beating Owen decisively. Bret does take himself seriously but this is one of the times Bret might have a point.

    I don't think Warrior would have lost by anything other than a DQ or count out. I'm sure Vince teased Bret with a I can see you beating Warrior by submission at The Rumble, pal!

    My point was Shawn didn't lose by submission or pin (minus SS92). Usually it was a DQ or something on TV. Yes it's still losing but I don't think taking a DQ is as bad as tapping out was my point.

    Bret knew what he was doing but was testing the waters. Bret never fully left (did European dates, contract didn't run out until the Fall). Bret really needed to go so Shawn could be anoited number one. I'm sure I'm not the only one at the time that was cheering Bret and Shawn. If you're Vince that needs to be fixed. So send your old warhorse home so he doesn't split the audience. Now it's Shawn alone and he's the man. All the people who were Bret is number 1 and Shawn is number 2 now find Shawn as their number 1.

    I know how the tag title match went down. I would have bitched if I was The Harts too because that match was the drizzles. Shawn says it was Bret politicing? Could very well be. Badger is also right with how Anvil's contract was up. I might even go a bit further and say somewhere in that time line Vince probably realized he had LOD on his roster and needed heel champs for LOD to beat (enter Nastys).

    I know Bret isn't a saint and never claimed him to be one. Bret has flaws (and Shawn too) and I've acknowledged that. I'm just saying I wish they could have got over everything and delivered.
    Last edited by Jarrod1983; May 22nd, 2020 at 8:49 AM.

  75. #75
    World Champion Dave Wyndorf's Avatar
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    Owen Hart's death can legally drink in the USA tomorrow. Time to celebrate

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    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald View Post
    Owen Hart's death can legally drink in the USA tomorrow. Time to celebrate

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald View Post
    Owen Hart's death can legally drink in the USA tomorrow. Time to celebrate
    That is sad and makes me feel old.

    Who's down to watch some Owen tomorrow together?

  78. #78
    World Champion Dave Wyndorf's Avatar
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    Yeah, 21 years, and I remember it like it was just yesterday. I did not watch the PPV, but I was following along on the AOL chat, when that was a thing. The next day in school, a lot of people came up to me asking if it was all real. I was known as the wrestling guy in high school. Even my crush asked me. Come to think of it, that was the only time she ever talked to me. Oh well.

  79. #79
    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald View Post
    Yeah, 21 years, and I remember it like it was just yesterday. I did not watch the PPV, but I was following along on the AOL chat, when that was a thing. The next day in school, a lot of people came up to me asking if it was all real. I was known as the wrestling guy in high school. Even my crush asked me. Come to think of it, that was the only time she ever talked to me. Oh well.
    Wrestling fads in high school was great. Once one of our English high school just happened to say "Ladies and gentlemen boys and girls" then I said "and children of all ages" then the next guy said "D-Generation X" and our teacher was like wtf?

  80. #80
    World Champion Dave Wyndorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Wrestling fads in high school was great. Once one of our English high school just happened to say "Ladies and gentlemen boys and girls" then I said "and children of all ages" then the next guy said "D-Generation X" and our teacher was like wtf?
    My favorite moment was in history class, the teacher asked "What happened during the St. Valentine's Day Massacre?", and my friend answered "Wasn't that when Paul Wight threw Steve Austin through a cage?"

  81. #81
    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    Amazing.

  82. #82
    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donald View Post
    My favorite moment was in history class, the teacher asked "What happened during the St. Valentine's Day Massacre?", and my friend answered "Wasn't that when Paul Wight threw Steve Austin through a cage?"
    Brilliant!

    High school wrestling fights too. Had this guy who used to annoy me a lot so I chased him but got bored ans let him get away. Once walking up to my class after lunch and he happened to have his back to me talking to his mates about me. Pushed and tripped him at the same time and sent him flying. A teacher some yards away turned around and saw him on the deck and I walked away whistling like nothing happened. It was like a perfect backstage attack and never got found out for it.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    I also didn't get the PPV but I still remember where I was.

    I had no clue. I went to a Catholic school that was about a half hour from where I lived and would ride in with my parents and get dropped off. I usually had my Walkman (I'm old) and I'd listen to that during the mini van rides because my father didn't like good music. I was listening to it low and all of a sudden I think I hear Jim Ross in my ears. I ignore it, until my mother turned around and had a pained look on her face. She motioned for me to take off my headphones. Jim Ross was speaking, it was the audio from the PPV last night being played on the radio. Which was fucking WEIRD. I started listening and 15 year old me was crushed. Crushed for Owen and his family. I thought of the Survivor Series 93 pre show with Todd Pettengill running around the Boston Garden and eventually interviewing Martha. She had a young Oje on her lap. I thought of Stu, Helen and Bret. Bulldog and Anvil.

    My mother asked if I heard. I said no. My dad wondered if it was a story. I got out of our van and made it into school and made my way to my buddy Matt who got every PPV as I did, to get results if I hadn't seen it. He confirmed the ugly truth.

    My father didn't fight me on watching Raw that night (I think my mom wanted to because she watched the beginning and never watched it unless Marty Jannetty was on the screen.) and we tuned in to the tribute show. I taped it and still have that VHS with all my other old school tapes. It was and still is heartbreaking.

  84. #84
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    Canadian Stampede 97. Just amazing.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    I used to be goaded into jumping up with a X-Pac suck it when the teacher's back was turned. Eventually, I got ratted out by some whiny bitch that hated wrestling and liked good grades.

    In English we had to make a Shakespeare video and my group was all wrestling fans and our English teacher tolerated it. At the end of speaking our Shakespearean dialogue I hit the guy with a boot and a Stunner and we blared Stone Cold's music in the background for no point at all. I did the head motion and my buddy tossed me a couple sodas and I did the whole routine. Our group for a A+ and a HUGE pop in English class.

  86. #86
    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    I was watching live at the time. I was 16 and it was the middle of the night. Horrible, just horrible.

    Imagine the tone of the evening at a PPV party after Ross announced it. At least the crowd wasn't aware yet.

  87. #87
    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Wrestling fun with cardboard boxes at a summer job I used to work at. Convinced a guy to get in a cardboard box while I ran from one end of the room to the other and Peoole's Elbowed the box.

    The cardboard box skip outside. Delivered a Swanton Bomb from the edge of the skip to the recipient lying on the cardboard.

    One guy who used to constantly annoy me and once during lunch I was eating a yoghurt at the time and catapulted a blobof yoghurt with my spoon from across the room and got him in the face. Business picked up for a few seconds but it was broken up and we made peace and kept our jobs.

  88. #88
    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murphy View Post
    I was watching live at the time. I was 16 and it was the middle of the night. Horrible, just horrible.

    Imagine the tone of the evening at a PPV party after Ross announced it. At least the crowd wasn't aware yet.
    I watched it on rdcorder VHS the day after school (I did that with PPVs) and was numb.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Wrestling fun with cardboard boxes at a summer job I used to work at. Convinced a guy to get in a cardboard box while I ran from one end of the room to the other and Peoole's Elbowed the box.

    The cardboard box skip outside. Delivered a Swanton Bomb from the edge of the skip to the recipient lying on the cardboard.

    One guy who used to constantly annoy me and once during lunch I was eating a yoghurt at the time and catapulted a blobof yoghurt with my spoon from across the room and got him in the face. Business picked up for a few seconds but it was broken up and we made peace and kept our jobs.
    I used to work for a guy that owned a diner and flower shop next to each other. My buddy Riley, I met there and he was a life long fan like I and we we're off to the races. Who could do a better nip up? Who could do a better Sharpshooter? In the winter we'd jump off the flower shop roof into snow piles to see who could do the better HBK Elbow Drop. Fun times.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    My best friend of 30+ years is a huge Bret Hart fan. I remember in the early-mid 90's when I was taller than a lot of my friends I would always be Diesel, he would be Bret. I would normally lose lol. But yeah we still call him "Hitman" because he was so into him he even did Bret's mannerisms while playing HS sports like baseball and football.

    When he graduated, he busted out sunglasses and did the Bret pose while accepting his diploma. Now he owns Maid Rites and puts his daughters in the sharpshooter for their birthday lol.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    When I got married my wife set up the groomsmen and bridesmaids to come out to WWF themes. DJ loved it. My HBK loving best man actually opted to do Stone Cold's theme so could chug a beer. My Mother In Law helped planned the most elegant wedding but this was Jarrod's big thumb print on it and I didn't even know. Anyways, I got Bret's music and by this time I am boozed to the gills, and I hit the floor, Jacket is Bret's leather and I whip it open like him, doing the arm pose and everything. Place going crazy.

    Fun side story. I'm boozed right up like I said. I had to hold the bigggggest piss of my life getting married. I was late getting to the church. My wife and I still argue to this day about this. She told me a limo was picking us up. She says she never said that and that she was getting the limo, my groomsmen, ring bearer and I were not. Anyways, it gets to the point where someone says don't you have to go Jarrod? Everyone but my pal Riley had been dropped off because we thought we were getting a limo. 6 guys, 4 of whom are like 250 pounds, and my step son Landyn, who was ring bearer, pile into this guys Jeep. Riley thankfully got there last and only had a beer so far. Short trip but Real American was just blasting in the speakers which is what I remember most. Piled out, right to the back and then up front, no time to pee. By the time I kissed my bride I thought my bladder was going to exxxxplode (Vince McMahon WMV voice). Fun day.
    Last edited by Jarrod1983; May 22nd, 2020 at 11:13 AM.

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    Now he owns Maid Rites and puts his daughters in the sharpshooter for their birthday lol.
    What the actual fuck ahahahaha

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    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Taker breaking out of the Sharpshooter at Summerslam 1997. First time I think that was ever done and what a moment that was. Bret's loogie towards Shawn atthe end and accidentally nailing Taker. Very underrated match that was.

    One Night Only was even better than that was well. Bret and Taker had amazing chemistry, on par with Shawn and Taker. Taker just gelled with these two guys.

    He could have helped stop this shit and said to Vince afterwards. Put the fear of God in Shawn just by taping his fists at Mania 14 (according to Prichard).
    Last edited by Badger; May 22nd, 2020 at 12:12 PM.

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    2021 POTTY Jarrod1983's Avatar
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    I haven't watched the One Night Only match in a long time but remember it being good. Maybe I'll give it a rewatch soon.

  95. #95
    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrod1983 View Post
    I haven't watched the One Night Only match in a long time but remember it being good. Maybe I'll give it a rewatch soon.
    It is fucking awesome. Check out Owen vs Vader too.

    Shawn vs Bulldog was great too up til the end nonsense.

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Taker breaking out of the Sharpshooter at Summerslam 1997. First time I think that was ever done and what a moment that was. Bret's loogie towards Shawn atthe end and accidentally nailing Taker. Very underrated match that was.

    One Night Only was even better than that was well. Bret and Taker had amazing chemistry, on par with Shawn and Taker. Taker just gelled with these two guys.

    He could have helped stop this shit and said to Vince afterwards. Put the fear of God in Shawn just by taping his fists at Mania 14 (according to Prichard).
    Was interesting seeing Taker saying he volunteered to beat Bret then put over Shawn to stop Montreal.

    Imagine how different things could have been had they done a triple threat at Survivor Series. Would have been huge, Bret and Taker v DX, can Bret and Shawn co exist to take Taker down etc. Would have been a fascinating fresh and huge match.

  97. #97
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Or Bret could have simply laid down like everyone else including Hogan and Warrior did and not bitch.

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    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Bret bitched and shouldn't have punched Vince but also Vince should not have lied to him and Shawn shouldn't have lied pulling that fake crying act in the locker room afterwards. That midget shit the Raw after was also not professional.

    Proportion of blame to everyone.

  99. #99
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Bret bitched and shouldn't have punched Vince but also Vince should not have lied to him and Shawn shouldn't have lied pulling that fake crying act in the locker room afterwards. That midget shit the Raw after was also not professional.

    Proportion of blame to everyone.
    Blame for what? LOL. None of that happened before Montreal.

    I mean, is it really that difficult for certain fans to say the blame starts and ends with Bret's decision to flex his creative control out of spite and caused this crazy domino effect?

    And then you have to really ask yourself, was Montreal and the result worth it? Think of what came of that situation. Not just the negatives. Could we sacrifice the positives that might be lost if Bret, at the very least, puts his pride and ego to the side for once and puts Shawn over? That whole situation showed us that Bret was and still is a super mark for himself, no different than Hulk Hogan.

  100. #100
    Former Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    Blame for what? LOL. None of that happened before Montreal.

    I mean, is it really that difficult for certain fans to say the blame starts and ends with Bret's decision to flex his creative control out of spite and caused this crazy domino effect?

    And then you have to really ask yourself, was Montreal and the result worth it? Think of what came of that situation. Not just the negatives. Could we sacrifice the positives that might be lost if Bret, at the very least, puts his pride and ego to the side for once and puts Shawn over? That whole situation showed us that Bret was and still is a super mark for himself, no different than Hulk Hogan.
    Positives did come from it, it was one of those weird happy accident situations. Bret did have creative control but Vince did go back on his word on that and gave him that contract so legally if not necessarily morally Bret has a point. Bret was also at fault because Bischoff told him not to worry about the title but Vince did still lie to him. Was Bret arrogant? Jarrod, myself and you all absolutely agree on that point. The Rockers split as well, them not winning titles just added to the heat Shawn got for blasting Marty.

    Shawn being held back further in part to Bret in the early 90s during his Rocker fame and initial singles run is entirely up for debate. The Rockers lost to a lot of teams and Vince having a hard-on for bigger men could have some part in that. LOD coming aboard is also a possible viable factor. Bret's political stroke when he himself jobbed a lot is also up for debate.

    Same token Bret could have given Shawn the rub at Summerslam 92. Ultimately though what we got at the end of the day was a fucking fantastic match and a rub for Davey Boy in his home country.

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