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Thread: Joker (2019)

  1. #101
    an affront to god mth's Avatar
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    I would agree with that.

  2. #102
    World Champion lotjx's Avatar
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    I just found it annoying. I love Inception for the record. I think that any part of that movie could be argued was not real. I mean the whole Thomas Wayne thing was the moment I got up and almost left til my friends reminded me they paid for my ticket to see me squirm through all of this. I get why people like it. It's set in 19Scourse with those trappings of Taxi Driver and King of Comedy. I just couldn't get past the idea of lung cancer 50 year old Joker fighting a 25! year old Batman.

  3. #103
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Thomas Wayne was dead the whole time and just in his head.

  4. #104
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    The cinematographer let something slip in an interview that's actually pretty big when it comes to an important part of the movie...


  5. #105
    an affront to god mth's Avatar
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    I didn't think he did.


  6. #106
    1-800-Call-My-Bluff Fro's Avatar
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    Agreed. I never thought he did that, even after reading the speculation about it.


  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotjx View Post
    The incell likes the hyped incell movie.
    Not only are you fuckin weird, yer fuckin dumb.

  8. #108
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    I FINALLY saw Joker.

    This movie...1 word....Phenomenal.

    I walked out of the theater and almost turned the corner and bought a ticket to see it at the 4pm showing. I haven't felt like this about a movie in years. Everything was on point. It looked great, the score was solid, the acting was top notch. I kept having to tell my best friend who hasn't seen it but kept trying to ask me 100 questions, all related to other Batman movies.

    I'm like dude, fuck whatever you think this is about. It has nothing to do with any previous Batman movies, they don't give a nod to any other Joker portrayals, they barely dabble in the Batman mythology outside of the very very bare bones. I'm surprised he didn't just have me go through the entire movie lol.

    Ramble aside....GREAT MOVIE. Fuck all the bullshit that the media tried to prop up prior, they're fucking stupid and so is the military for releasing a statement. They should have maybe watched the movie first before getting so fucking shook. Great job JOKER. No wonder it's made a killing.

  9. #109
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Apparently Phoenix is pushing for a part 2.

    I'm not negative to it BUT I would love this to just be it. In a time where so many comics are getting multiple sequels, it'd be nice to not have this fall in line.

  10. #110
    Furry, Filthy and Fun Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    Apparently Phoenix is pushing for a part 2.

    I'm not negative to it BUT I would love this to just be it. In a time where so many comics are getting multiple sequels, it'd be nice to not have this fall in line.
    Well it can be stretched again to include Bruce also growing up to be Batman.

    I agree though that as great as Phoenix was here that they shouldn’t push this too far in the already oversaturated world of prequels and sequels. We just had Gotham too.

  11. #111
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger View Post
    Well it can be stretched again to include Bruce also growing up to be Batman.

    I agree though that as great as Phoenix was here that they shouldn’t push this too far in the already oversaturated world of prequels and sequels. We just had Gotham too.
    I was just about to say....We literally had that same exact story with Gotham who had an incredible "Joker" the last 4-5 years. That's what I'm saying, oversaturated and Batman is a character that we have seen so many different versions over the last 30 years in movies and tv. I mean it's not as bad as Spider Man where we've had 3 different versions in just the last 10 years or so.

    Like I said, I'm not negative to it but what makes this movie even more special is the idea that we're not going to have Joker 2-5. The funny part is Phoenix went in to this thing knowing it was a one-off and that's what made him jump in. I didn't know this, but apparently he turned down playing Hulk AND Dr Strange because he didn't want locked in and wind up losing interest in the character but still being obligated to play the role.

  12. #112
    1-800-Call-My-Bluff Fro's Avatar
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    No sequel would be best. I mean, maybe they could pull off something worthwhile but I doubt it. The character isn’t some maniacal mastermind in this iteration. The story was very personal so when I think of him getting out and doing more crazy shit, I just struggle to see how the story could be anywhere near as interesting a second time. What’s he going to do, start killing people at random now? That seems out of character. He could become obsessed with Bruce but that seems kinda weak too. I doubt they would flash forward to Bruce as an adult since they already have The Batman coming out.

  13. #113
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    The cinematographer...

    “In terms of what we did visually to play with the real and not real, there are callbacks and scenes that mirror each other. We leave hints using imagery or way we covered scenes similarly between scene."

  14. #114
    an affront to god mth's Avatar
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    Deleted scene would have had Zazie Beetz's character watching Arthur's appearance on Murry's show.

  15. #115
    Furry, Filthy and Fun Badger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fro View Post
    No sequel would be best. I mean, maybe they could pull off something worthwhile but I doubt it. The character isn’t some maniacal mastermind in this iteration. The story was very personal so when I think of him getting out and doing more crazy shit, I just struggle to see how the story could be anywhere near as interesting a second time. What’s he going to do, start killing people at random now? That seems out of character. He could become obsessed with Bruce but that seems kinda weak too. I doubt they would flash forward to Bruce as an adult since they already have The Batman coming out.
    I think it could be stretched to another sequel to see Phoenix interact with a grown up Bruce just to see how the interpretation comes out compared to Gotham and I think he is talented enough. However at the same time it’s not absolutely necessary and I wouldn’t be that bothered if this didn’t go any further.

    Either way as Nash said, make this the absolute last one if they do so they’re not completely milking it.

  16. #116
    Legend Mik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotjx View Post
    To answer the question who cares, it's a shitty troupe to hide bad writing. The midget locked down scene was the only real laugh out loud scene. The rest was a long boring trip to get to what we already know.
    Quote Originally Posted by lotjx View Post
    Is any of this real? I think it is designed to hide errors in the writing process. I didn't mind the one thing not being real, but to have everything in this movie be a toss up is dumb. Honestly, there is a lot of dumb in this movie, so I can see why they used that troup. I apologize if I spoiled anything, but we are in week three, so I don't think talking about this is a big deal now.
    Have a third attempt to spell it correctly.

    Saw it tonight, thought it was good, massively overhyped though. I don’t think that it is particularly insightful or has much to say that hasn’t been said better elsewhere. Makes for a very good origin story though.

  17. #117
    1-800-Call-My-Bluff Fro's Avatar
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    The news of the day is that Joker 2 is reportedly in development. Not surprising given that Joker passed a billion.

    My take away is that Todd Phillips, who I love and praise more than anyone, simply can't lay off the sequels. The Hangover sequels are the only ones he's done so perhaps I'm being harsh but when I look at the timing of those - the 3 Hangover movies came out in 2009, 2011 and 2013 - it seems that he rushed them out for a cash grab rather than doing them on the merit of the script. Making a sequel to The Hangover was inevitable given how good and popular it was but when I compare it to say Ghostbusters II, that one came out a good 5 years after the original. It seems like they at least let it breathe before jumping back in.

    Joker is not a good movie to sequelize because the sequel will likely take away from the wonderful ambiguity of the original film (in my opinion), but if they do it they should at least take their time with it. Not churn it out for a 2021 release. And for all I know they will do just that, and Phillips will pour himself into the script for another year and consider not making it if he can't make it worthy of being made, but the Hangover sequels and this quick news make me skeptical of that.

  18. #118
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fro View Post
    The news of the day is that Joker 2 is reportedly in development. Not surprising given that Joker passed a billion.

    My take away is that Todd Phillips, who I love and praise more than anyone, simply can't lay off the sequels. The Hangover sequels are the only ones he's done so perhaps I'm being harsh but when I look at the timing of those - the 3 Hangover movies came out in 2009, 2011 and 2013 - it seems that he rushed them out for a cash grab rather than doing them on the merit of the script. Making a sequel to The Hangover was inevitable given how good and popular it was but when I compare it to say Ghostbusters II, that one came out a good 5 years after the original. It seems like they at least let it breathe before jumping back in.

    Joker is not a good movie to sequelize because the sequel will likely take away from the wonderful ambiguity of the original film (in my opinion), but if they do it they should at least take their time with it. Not churn it out for a 2021 release. And for all I know they will do just that, and Phillips will pour himself into the script for another year and consider not making it if he can't make it worthy of being made, but the Hangover sequels and this quick news make me skeptical of that.
    Yeah I think it's harsh to say that guy who's only done 1 set of sequels for a comedy that didn't require a high level script somehow can't lay off the sequels.....I'm almost positive I read that he didn't want to do one, neither Phoenix, but PHOENIX is the one hitting up Todd Phillips with mock posters for Joker 2. So to put this on Phillips and connecting it to Hangover, it's like comparing apples to grenades.

    I'm not a fan of them doing another one because imo, part of the allure for hardcore fans is that it was going to be it. No multi-movie situation, just it's own shit that doesn't need to fall in line with every other comic inspired flick.

    With that said....I'll be there, I'll love it, and I'll gladly take a 3rd one lol.

  19. #119
    Legend Mik's Avatar
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    The only sequel that would make sense to this would be a Batman film. This was a Joker origins story.

  20. #120
    1-800-Call-My-Bluff Fro's Avatar
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    well that was fake news anyway, Phillips denied it.

  21. #121
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    Finally watched this last night. Phoenix was good. The intense parts were gritty and strong. Seems like a nice launching point for a DC Dark Universe if they actually want to do that.

  22. #122
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BGMaverick View Post
    Finally watched this last night. Phoenix was good. The intense parts were gritty and strong. Seems like a nice launching point for a DC Dark Universe if they actually want to do that.
    They've pretty much already been "dark" since fuck idk, Tim Burton's first Batman? DC has always been the grittier of the 2 major comic book companies when it comes to movies. Aside from Punisher and Blade, Marvel doesn't have a lot of the stuff you'll find in movies like The Dark Knight, Suicide Squad, Joker, etc.

    And I'll be honest, kind of tired of the whole "Let's create a universe" approach. At least for this movie. Bring on part 2, but let's not try to start crossing over Robert Pattinson's Batman and shit like that, especially when DC already has a "universe" going on.

  23. #123
    1-800-Call-My-Bluff Fro's Avatar
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    I'm so high off the MCU doing a shared universe so brilliantly that I do find myself fiending for them to do it here. It would be so sweet for Joaquin to show up in the Battinson movie, maybe just in a cameo, and then have him be the main villain for the Batman sequel. But realistically I know that's not the route they've chosen, and shoehorning it in now would be a likely disaster for various reasons. The main reason they can't do it is the characters and actors ages, and the timeline. Joker took place in 1981 and Phoenix is pretty obviously in his 40s so unless they want to backdate Batman to the mid 90s or something, which I doubt they want to do.... it just doesn't all add up unless we age Joker into his 60s, or have a very young Bruce (like age 20) and put the Batman series in the 90s. And that's fine that it doesn't work. They intended Joker to be standalone and that's probably one of the reasons why it's so good. They did what was best artistically for this movie, not worrying about setting it up to tie into future DC movies. So yes, let it be. Ideally they won't even make Joker 2.

  24. #124
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fro View Post
    I'm so high off the MCU doing a shared universe so brilliantly that I do find myself fiending for them to do it here. It would be so sweet for Joaquin to show up in the Battinson movie, maybe just in a cameo, and then have him be the main villain for the Batman sequel. But realistically I know that's not the route they've chosen, and shoehorning it in now would be a likely disaster for various reasons. The main reason they can't do it is the characters and actors ages, and the timeline. Joker took place in 1981 and Phoenix is pretty obviously in his 40s so unless they want to backdate Batman to the mid 90s or something, which I doubt they want to do.... it just doesn't all add up unless we age Joker into his 60s, or have a very young Bruce (like age 20) and put the Batman series in the 90s. And that's fine that it doesn't work. They intended Joker to be standalone and that's probably one of the reasons why it's so good. They did what was best artistically for this movie, not worrying about setting it up to tie into future DC movies. So yes, let it be. Ideally they won't even make Joker 2.
    I hope they don't but now that Phoenix is all about a part 2, when the main selling point was that there wouldn't be, leads me to believe we quite possibly could get Joker 2. It doesn't need one but you know how it goes.

  25. #125
    1-800-Call-My-Bluff Fro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I hope they don't but now that Phoenix is all about a part 2, when the main selling point was that there wouldn't be, leads me to believe we quite possibly could get Joker 2. It doesn't need one but you know how it goes.
    Yea. If you look at the highest grossing movies of all time, Joker is #32. Of all the 31 films ahead of it, all of them except one were either sequelized, about to be sequelized (Avatar, Aquaman, Black Panther, Captain Marvel), a sequel themselves, or a 3D reboot (The Lion King/Beauty and the Beast reboots). The only one exception is Titanic. It seems unlikely Joker will stand alone like Titanic. Todd Phillips would need to be the man to say no, and that seems unlikely. He is surely working on a treatment/script for Joker 2 as we speak, trying to come up with a worthy follow up.

  26. #126
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    It'd be wild if they made a Titanic 2. I'd spend a bulk of it as an interrogation of Rose as to why she was selfish in regards to the door with Jack.

  27. #127
    1-800-Call-My-Bluff Fro's Avatar
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    I re-watched this. I still love it. I can see why it didn't land for certain viewers since the dialogue can often be somewhat basic, most notably the climax conversation between Arthur and Murray. I love that scene personally, but I can understand people saying it feels too unrealistic or dumbed down or on the nose... lines like "I killed those guys because they were awful. Everybody's awful these days. It's enough to make anyone crazy" and "What do you get when you cross a mentally-ill loner with a system that abandons him and treats him like trash?" But I think that is intentional, which leads me to my next point.

    Upon re-watch, I'm firmly in the camp that this whole movie was in Arthur's head. It's all a delusion, only loosely based on his true past. He's in Arkham the whole time. Some of his story is probably true, like his mother's mental illness. I believe the file on his mother is accurate - she also suffered from delusions, she let her son be abused by her boyfriends, etc. Thomas Wayne was never her lover. The dismissive reactions by Alfred and Thomas to Arthur stating he is Wayne's son strike me as truthful - they didn't doctor the files, Penny really was crazy and Thomas never had an affair with her. But Arthur was fed the Thomas Wayne story by Penny and he probably got his hands on her case file, learned of their past and killed her (just like we see in the movie). And that's why he's in Arkham, which he can't remember (the social worker asks him if he remembers why he was previously committed and we never get a answer). The story of him starting the revolution is all made up.

    There's so many hints about this which have already been well documented but bear with me as I state them again based on my own viewing:

    • In his first meeting with his social worker we get a flashback to him in his previous stint in Arkham, and the time on the clock is the exact same in the flashback.
    • We're shown that he makes things up in his head, like his fantasy of being called on stage by Murray and his relationship with Sophie. The first being an innocent imagination, the second being a more serious delusion and warping of reality vs fantasy.
    • He fires 8 shots when killing the 3 suits without reloading.
    • The girl who was being harassed by the suits on the train later shows back up in a cab with a joker mask to Arthur's delight, as if she is approving of him and thankful that he "saved" her.
    • People who look like Sophie (i.e. big puffy black hair) show up on screen a lot during the riots.
    • Other general unrealistic plot devices like his interaction with Bruce and Alfred (Bruce just happening to be there right when he walks up, Alfred being so quickly physically subdued by Arthur even though he looks like a big strong guy), Arthur sneaking into the Charlie Chaplin event and somehow immediately getting an usher's uniform to disguise himself, and the whole plot line of how he ends up being invited onto the Murray show.
    • His black psychiatrist in Arkham at the end looking and sounding so similar to his social worker.
    • The way it cuts to Bruce standing by his dead parents right as Arthur says he was just thinking of a joke that you wouldn't get. Him being responsible for the Wayne murders by causing all those riots is his twisted fantasy. He never felt like he existed. In this fantasy he becomes a hero to all of Gotham's lower class and causes the Waynes' deaths. It's the perfect fantasy for why he is in Arkham now, as opposed to the reality that he has a fucked up mother and killed her and still means nothing to nobody.
    • His bloody footprints at the very end are just another fantasy. It's unrealistic that he could be in a criminal mental hospital and kill his psychiatrist like that and start prancing around. This furthers the delusion.


    While it's designed to be ambiguous and there's no right answer at this point, it's clear what Todd Phillips was doing. It's all a twisted fantasy in the mind of a lunatic.

  28. #128
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    I just wish this movie had a Wizard of Oz/Pink Floyd relationship. Somebody find a dope record and see if it matches up with the Joker movie lol. I remember being so thankful my buddy Mike's parents were hippies and owned the record because they would get stoned listening to it. It was worn but it worked, synched right up.

  29. #129
    ... Beer-Belly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fro View Post
    I re-watched this. I still love it. I can see why it didn't land for certain viewers since the dialogue can often be somewhat basic, most notably the climax conversation between Arthur and Murray. I love that scene personally, but I can understand people saying it feels too unrealistic or dumbed down or on the nose... lines like "I killed those guys because they were awful. Everybody's awful these days. It's enough to make anyone crazy" and "What do you get when you cross a mentally-ill loner with a system that abandons him and treats him like trash?" But I think that is intentional, which leads me to my next point.

    Upon re-watch, I'm firmly in the camp that this whole movie was in Arthur's head. It's all a delusion, only loosely based on his true past. He's in Arkham the whole time. Some of his story is probably true, like his mother's mental illness. I believe the file on his mother is accurate - she also suffered from delusions, she let her son be abused by her boyfriends, etc. Thomas Wayne was never her lover. The dismissive reactions by Alfred and Thomas to Arthur stating he is Wayne's son strike me as truthful - they didn't doctor the files, Penny really was crazy and Thomas never had an affair with her. But Arthur was fed the Thomas Wayne story by Penny and he probably got his hands on her case file, learned of their past and killed her (just like we see in the movie). And that's why he's in Arkham, which he can't remember (the social worker asks him if he remembers why he was previously committed and we never get a answer). The story of him starting the revolution is all made up.

    There's so many hints about this which have already been well documented but bear with me as I state them again based on my own viewing:

    • In his first meeting with his social worker we get a flashback to him in his previous stint in Arkham, and the time on the clock is the exact same in the flashback.
    • We're shown that he makes things up in his head, like his fantasy of being called on stage by Murray and his relationship with Sophie. The first being an innocent imagination, the second being a more serious delusion and warping of reality vs fantasy.
    • He fires 8 shots when killing the 3 suits without reloading.
    • The girl who was being harassed by the suits on the train later shows back up in a cab with a joker mask to Arthur's delight, as if she is approving of him and thankful that he "saved" her.
    • People who look like Sophie (i.e. big puffy black hair) show up on screen a lot during the riots.
    • Other general unrealistic plot devices like his interaction with Bruce and Alfred (Bruce just happening to be there right when he walks up, Alfred being so quickly physically subdued by Arthur even though he looks like a big strong guy), Arthur sneaking into the Charlie Chaplin event and somehow immediately getting an usher's uniform to disguise himself, and the whole plot line of how he ends up being invited onto the Murray show.
    • His black psychiatrist in Arkham at the end looking and sounding so similar to his social worker.
    • The way it cuts to Bruce standing by his dead parents right as Arthur says he was just thinking of a joke that you wouldn't get. Him being responsible for the Wayne murders by causing all those riots is his twisted fantasy. He never felt like he existed. In this fantasy he becomes a hero to all of Gotham's lower class and causes the Waynes' deaths. It's the perfect fantasy for why he is in Arkham now, as opposed to the reality that he has a fucked up mother and killed her and still means nothing to nobody.
    • His bloody footprints at the very end are just another fantasy. It's unrealistic that he could be in a criminal mental hospital and kill his psychiatrist like that and start prancing around. This furthers the delusion.


    While it's designed to be ambiguous and there's no right answer at this point, it's clear what Todd Phillips was doing. It's all a twisted fantasy in the mind of a lunatic.
    They literally show what's real and what isn't.

  30. #130
    1-800-Call-My-Bluff Fro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer-Belly View Post
    They literally show what's real and what isn't.
    There are strong implications that what’s not real goes beyond what they show us. at the very least it’s designed to be ambiguous and make the viewer question what’s real. I was with you after my first watch but now my interpretation is that it’s all a delusion in his head from as he sits in Arkham

  31. #131
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Has the director or Phoenix came out and said that the movie is open for interpretation or anything like that? I fucking hate when I hear that. Just tell us what the fuck was going on and don't wait 25 years for the ultra digital platinum chain edition lol.

    To me I think it seemed pretty cut and dry as to what was going on so I'm with Beer-Belly but who knows. They're going to fuck with people like with Killing Joke, did Batman kill Joker or not?

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    an affront to god mth's Avatar
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    https://www.indiewire.com/2019/12/to...on-1202199215/
    “There’s many ways to look at the movie,” Philips said. “He might not be Joker. This is just a version of a Joker origin. It’s just the version this guy is telling in this room at a mental institution. I don’t know that he’s the most reliable narrator in the world, you know what I’m saying?”
    ...
    While Phillips has long maintained that Phoenix’s Joker might not be the Batman nemesis comes book fans know and love, Phoenix disagrees. The Los Angeles Times reported in a Phoenix interview the actor personally believes Arthur is the real Joker. The actor added, ‘But I don’t know. It’s just my opinion.’”

  33. #133
    1-800-Call-My-Bluff Fro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mth View Post
    "It’s just the version this guy is telling in this room at a mental institution. I don’t know that he’s the most reliable narrator in the world, you know what I’m saying?”
    Seems pretty clear. I don't think it would make sense for him to go beyond this and say "the whole movie is in his head, it's a delusion". You have to leave it somewhat ambiguous... especially if they make a sequel, but even if there will never be a sequel it would still not benefit the film to state the answer in an interview. The film speaks for itself. It is art.

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    GP OG Percussion's Avatar
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    I don't think it would ever benefit a film, or any piece of storytelling, to declare it all a delusion..

  35. #135
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Personally I've just never been a fan of those "open to interpretation" movies. He either is or isn't daydreaming the entire thing.

    And Phillips basically gave the same answer Gotham gave us about Jerome/Jeremiah at the beginning. Was he Joker? Well we found out he was, but at first they made it out like he was just the catalyst, the inspiration. So maybe that's what he was going with but honestly, he had a vision and he just wants to be all M Night about it lol.

    Either way, dope fuckin movie, one of the best movies ever imo.

  36. #136
    Isaiah 40:30-31 Hero!'s Avatar
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    Finally watched this. Very enjoy. Joaquin Phoenix is an amazing actor.

    I don’t know if the whole thing was a delusion or real and I like that a lot.

  37. #137
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hero! View Post
    Finally watched this. Very enjoy. Joaquin Phoenix is an amazing actor.

    I don’t know if the whole thing was a delusion or real and I like that a lot.
    Personally it felt like a little of both. In and out of reality. It's an incredible movie. I'm sad they're doing a part 2 (supposedly). This just felt like something that should stand on it's own and not have any "The first one was better" responses.

  38. #138
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    Phillips confirmed a sequel is on.

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    FBI Warning VHS's Avatar
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    Heck yeah

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