Enjoy your vacation, sox.
Enjoy your vacation, sox.
Adios, dipshit.
I used to religiously watch NFL Films as a kid, and still do. It's tough to find complete games, but if you try you can get a good sense for how great these guys really were.Originally Posted by Pablo Diablo
Besides, it's pretty widely accepted that defense as a general concept has been shit since the 90s due to various rule changes.
Enough.
i don't think soxfanatic did anything bad here. I know it goes beyond this thread but he just said "people probably googled it" which is an inoffensive comment, percussion came over the top and then he defended himself. No foul IMO
And as he said, he did contribute to this thread with a few actual NFL comments previously, not like he came out of the clouds
He was asked to stop trolling Percussion, he persisted, he was banned. Very simple.
Agreed. Anecdotal tales from historians and peers help put certain guys front and center, but from there footage is available to put together some discerning idea of how the old timers stack up. It ain't an exact science but it's hardly just throwing darts either.
- - - Updated - - -
He earned it.
I wasn't judging other people for their voting. I was just saying how I voted. When we started we agreed that everyone could choose their own criteria.
I do agree that rule changes have swung things in favour of offense. But I think in a list like this you have to look at who dominated at their time. Even with today's rules people like Reed and Watt are still stand outs who completely change the game when they're on the field.
Changes in rules though always makes it difficult to truly compare players from different eras in every sport.
I'm not sure if JJ Watt made my list, and he's awesome.
I had him in my top 10.
Please make it permanent. He literally adds nothing but trolling to any discussion.
As for the list, can’t believe Ray was so low. Dude was a beast on one of the first dynastys in NFL history.
Of course YOU think that.
He would.
Though I am a bit ashamed I didn't have him on my list at all
Are you implying I’m a homer? Cuz you would be totally correct.
Come on Kd, how could you leave him off?
#15
JJ Watt
Born: March 22, 1989
Years Active: 2011-present
Height: 6'5 Weight: 295
College: University of Wisconsin
Position: Defensive End
Stats: 394 total tackles, 76 sacks, 1 int, 47 passes defensed, 15 forced fumbles, 13 fumble recoveries, 2 tds, 1 safety
2x Sack Leader, 4x Pro Bowl, 3x Defensive Player of the Year
Points: 55
Votes: 7
Ranked Highest by: Pablo Diablo (7th)
short career thus far but being a 3x defensive player of the year is pretty impressive. hopefully he gets healthy again.
Yeah I'd like to see him get healthy again and terrorize the league for 14/16 games.
I probably put him much higher than I should have considering his injuries and there's definitely a strong recency bias compared to older players, but when he is healthy JJ completely changes how offenses gameplan and has just been pretty much unstoppable.
Having watched his just about every snap it's easy for me to gush about what a terror this guy's been when healthy. Like changing statistical measures kind of terror. Double and triple teams be damned, and on defenses that didn't have a ton of other pieces. Quality over quantity here and I think it's justified when comparing peak years historically.
When healthy he’s far and away the best defensive player in the NFL right now. Love him.
Watt needs more years for me to put him as high. But when healthy, he is an absolute monster. Almost even Hall of Fame already.
Argument can be made that 3x DPOY is hall of fame on it's own. He's in a class with only LT there. Then considering just how good those seasons were..
Do you consider Earl Campbell HoF worthy?
#14
Junior Seau
Born: January 19, 1969
Years Active: 1990-2009
Height: 6'3 Weight: 250
College: University of Southern California
Position: Linebacker
Stats: 1,846 total tackles, 56.5 sacks, 18 ints, 23 passes defensed, 11 forced fumbles, 18 fumble recoveries, 1 td
12x Pro Bowl, 1x Defensive Player of the Year, HoF
Points: 57
Votes: 8
Ranked Highest by: Pablo Diablo (8th)
For a little half Polynesian Cewsh, Junior Seau was basically Superman.
His suicide was so, so rough.
When I first started getting into football, Seau was one of the guys who always stood out to me. I loved watching him play.
I remember liking him a bunch as a kid too. I can't remember if I included him on my list.
15th
Sweet. I kind of like that we made the lists a little while ago, haha. Makes seeing some of these names that much more refreshing.
danm shame he didnt get a ring with the Patriots in 2007. he deserved to be a champion.
Didn’t make my list, unfortunately. He got bumped by my homer pick.
Dude was a fucking machine. Probably a top 25 defensive player of all time
Yes. But Earl has 5 years of 1300+ and 10+. JJ has 3 years of elite and 1 good year. Needs 1 more elite season to me for HOF. The 3 DPOY is why he's in the discussion already.
There is also much less competition for DPoY than there used to be.
Junior Seau never won DPOY? At least not the AP one that matters and seems to be recognized as the real one.
I guess he deserves it for longevity, but it never felt like he was a truly dominant defensive player, just very good for a long time.
Last edited by Mr. Boombastic; June 28th, 2018 at 10:25 PM.
Seau was a monster. Definitely belongs on this list.
Not sure about this. Winning it over guys like Von Miller, Ndamukong Suh, Aldon Smith (he was ridiculous in '12), Luke Kuechly, Aaron Donald, Geno Atkins, NaVorro Bowman, Patrick Peterson, Earl Thomas, Justin Houston ('14 in particular), Derrick Johnson, Richard Sherman, Khalil Mack, Bobby Wagner is pretty legit competition. And he overlapped all of these guys while they were killing it in one or another of his award winning seasons.
And again, even if he was winning them versus a bunch of stiffs, which he wasn't, he was doing so with statistically unheard of seasons. These would have been good enough in any era matched up against any of the greats that we'll still see on this list. Just think having a hall of fame and excluding some of the best defensive football to have ever been played, in spite of unfortunately being curtailed due to injury, would be odd.
#13
Mike Singletary
Born: October 9, 1958
Years Active: 1981-1992
Height: 5'11 Weight: 230
College: Baylor University
Position: Middle Linebacker
Stats: 1,488 total tackles, 19 sacks, 7 ints, 12 fumble recoveries
10x Pro Bowl, 2x Defensive Player of the Year, 1x Super Bowl Champion, HoF
Points: 65
Votes: 8
Ranked Highest by: Pablo Diablo (6th)
The best middle linebacker to ever play. The template.
Bruh you had three mlbs ranked ahead of him.
I just didn't want to look like a homer.
So that's 3 in a row for me having the highest placement for people. People must be letting his less than stellar coaching influence them.
I kind of did the sameI just didn't want to look like a homer.
#12
Joe Greene
Born: September 24, 1946
Years Active: 1969-1981
Height: 6'4 Weight: 276
College: University of North Texas
Position: Defensive Tackle
Stats: 78.5 sacks, 1 int, 16 fumble recoveries
RotY '69, 10x Pro Bowl, 2x Defensive Player of the Year, 4x Super Bowl Champion, HoF
Points: 84
Votes: 8
Ranked Highest by: _me, Fro (5th)
#11
Dick Butkus
Born: December 9, 1942
Years Active: 1965-1973
Height: 6'3 Weight: 245
College: University of Illinois
Position: Middle Linebacker
Stats: 22 ints, 27 fumble recoveries, 1 td
8x Pro Bowl, 2x Defensive Player of the Year, HoF
Points: 97
Votes: 9
Ranked Highest by: kdestiny (2nd)
Summary..
11. Dick Butkus
12. Joe Greene
13. Mike Singletary
14. Junior Seau
15. JJ Watt
16. Ray Nitschke
17. Mel Blount
18. Jack Lambert
19. Dick 'Night Train' Lane
20. Derrick Thomas
Last edited by Percussion; July 4th, 2018 at 3:51 PM.
Funniest name ever
But I would never say that to his face.
Lot of big dudes who would have never said that to his face.
I would for sure say it to his face
via webcam.
And only if my face was pixalated.
Dick Butkus and Deion Sanders should have an odd-couple sitcom together.
#10
Charles Woodson
Born: October 7, 1976
Years Active: 1998-2015
Height: 6'1 Weight: 210
College: University of Michigan
Position: Defensive Back
Stats: 1,205 total tackles, 20 sacks, 65 ints, 33 forced fumbles, 18 fumble recoveries, 13 tds
RotY '98, 2x Int Leader, 9x Pro Bowl, 1x Defensive Player of the Year, 1x Super Bowl Champion
Points: 100
Votes: 9
Ranked Highest by: Bandit (2nd)
Most will probably say I overrated him but I think he was my favorite defensive player of all time. Could turn a game with a single play and grew from a perceived headache to a humble leader who had men that would follow him beyond the wall. Love that dude. His 09 and 10 seasons were unreal, and the re-emergence stretch of 08-11 as a whole were awesome. 8x all pro (4 first team, 4 second team) as a modern era DB is, imo, comparable to an RB with as many all pros, as both positions seemingly have the shortest shelf life of elite play on their respective side of the ball.
Probably my 3rd favorite Packer of the last 25 years. Just a great football player.
Bandit summed it up so good, I’ll just say I agree 100%
Remember that interception he had while he was at Michigan?
Crazy.
After checking my list, I can’t believe how low I had Charles. Granted the people I have above him deserve those spots, but damn.
#9
Deacon Jones
Born: December 9, 1938
Years Active: 1961-74
Height: 6'5 Weight: 272
College: Mississippi Vocational College
Position: Defensive End
Stats: 173.5 'unofficial' sacks, 2 ints, 15 fumble recoveries, 2 safeties
8x Pro Bowl, 2x Defensive Player of the Year, Coined the term Sack, HoF
Points: 125
Votes: 10
Ranked Highest by: Bandit, kdestiny, Cewsh (3rd)
A god among men.
Another terrifying dude
His 'unofficial' year-to-year sack totals..
1961 - 8
1962 - 12
1963 - 5.5
1964 - 22
1965 - 19
1966 - 18
1967 - 21.5
1968 - 22
1969 - 15
1970 - 12
1971 - 4.5
1972 - 6
1973 - 5
1974 - 3
These are 14 game regular seasons, mind. So that 5 year stretch where he put up no less than 18 sacks, in a 16 game season he'd have averaged 23.5 per year.
1970, where he started to show signs of being human, he'd have had 13.5 or 14 in a 16 game season.
What a dude.
He should’ve been on every list right?
If I know any defender other than my number one should've, it's this guy. Butkus was a bit of a homer pick for me, but Jones is arguably the scariest DE that anyone has ever faced, and to put up numbers like he did in a shorter season is insane.
Also worth considering that QBs dropped back to pass like half as many times per game as they do now. So his sack-to-pass-attempt ratio is probably even crazier than we realize too, I imagine.
Can't believe I forgot Charles Woodson.
Same here. I crossed off both 'Woodson's from my list when I did Rod but one of them was Charles. That was a rather large oversight to say the least.
Can't believe I forgot Charles Woodson.
God knows how many concussions he handed out over the years to a man…or woman.
#8
Bruce Smith
Born: June 18, 1963
Years Active: 1985-2003
Height: 6'4 Weight: 265
College: Virginia Tech University
Position: Defensive End
Stats: 1,224 total tackles, 200 sacks, 2 ints, 43 forced fumbles, 15 fumble recoveries, 1 td, 2 safeties
11x Pro Bowl, 2x Defensive Player of the Year, NFL All-time Sack Leader, HoF
Points: 135
Votes: 13
Ranked Highest by: CWE (3rd)
Dirty Bill. Is what I would say now.
At the time he was playing and with my family mostly being Bills fans I learnt the fear of Bruce Smith.
First unanimous pick, btw.
Bruce Smith in "excellent" status was a goddamn nightmare in Tecmo Super Bowl. Your left tackle would literally offer zero resistance and unless you had a mobile QB like Cunningham/Young you would be forced to eat a sack or throw quickly to the first wr and pray you don't get picked off.
Who would bench Montana for Young?
If you were playing Bruce Smith in excellent, clearly
The best way to handle playing against Bruce Smith or LT was to run the ball right at them. There were typically enough blockers to occupy them and even though they were crazy fast it allows for some success. This then would typically force the opposing player to choose more of those run plays on defense which allowed you to then move to the passing game and fire to open receivers. You don't have to even look at them when you read run by the defense, you just have to fire through to which ever receiver you want and throw before Smith or LT get there.
#7
Ronnie Lott
Born: May 8, 1959
Years Active: 1981-94
Height: 6'0 Weight: 203
College: University of Southern California
Position: Defensive Back
Stats: 1,146 total tackles, 8.5 sacks, 63 ints, 16 forced fumbles, 17 fumble recoveries, 5 tds
10x Pro Bowl, 2x Interception Leader, 4x Super Bowl Champion, Gave up a finger to keep playing a game, HoF
Points: 138
Votes: 9
Ranked Highest by: Percussion (2nd)
Best all around defensive back in history, afaic.
Last edited by Percussion; July 10th, 2018 at 12:01 AM.
What is the story of him giving up a finger to keep playing?
Also can you post the summary of the list so far? cheers
He had the option one offseason to have half of a finger amputated to be ready for the start of the next season or have surgery and delay starting that season. He has nine and a half fingers now.
7. Ronnnie Lott
8. Bruce Smith
9. Deacon Jones
10. Charles Woodson
11. Dick Butkus
12. Joe Greene
13. Mike Singletary
14. Junior Seau
15. JJ Watt
16. Ray Nitschke
17. Mel Blount
18. Jack Lambert
19. Dick Lane
20. Derrick Thomas
#6
Rod Woodson
Born: March 10, 1965
Years Active: 1987-2003
Height: 6'0 Weight: 205
College: Purdue University
Position: Defensive Back
Stats: 1,157 total tackles, 13.5 sacks, 71 ints, 20 forced fumbles, 32 fumble recoveries, 13 tds
11x Pro Bowl, 2x Interception Leader, 1x Defensive Player of the Year, 1x Super Bowl Champion, HoF
Points: 149
Votes: 13
Ranked Highest by: Percussion (4th)
Summary..
6. Rod Woodson
7. Ronnnie Lott
8. Bruce Smith
9. Deacon Jones
10. Charles Woodson
11. Dick Butkus
12. Joe Greene
13. Mike Singletary
14. Junior Seau
15. JJ Watt
16. Ray Nitschke
17. Mel Blount
18. Jack Lambert
19. Dick 'Night Train' Lane
20. Derrick Thomas
2nd unanimous pick.
So I am guessing the top 5 has to include Reggie White, LT, Ray Lewis, and Deion Sanders, and I'm not sure who will be the 5th man.
Besides those 4, I had Julius Peppers (4), Ed Reed (8), Troy Polamalu (10), Darrell Green (12), Derrick Brooks (14), Warren Sapp (17), Ronde Barber (19), and John Randle (20) that haven't yet made the list.
I would bet Reed is the 5th man.I only put Deion Sanders at (11), because I couldn't fathom putting somebody as a top 10 defensive player when the guy couldn't tackle for shit. Excited for the reveal!
Good point, also curious to see who rounds out that top 5. Ed Reed seems like a good choice. I had him at #20, a little low.
It'll be ed reed
#5
Ray Lewis
Born: May 15, 1975
Years Active: 1996-2012
Height: 6'1 Weight: 245
College: University of Miami
Position: Middle Linebacker
Stats: 2,055 total tackles, 41.5 sacks, 31 ints, 19 forced fumbles, 20 fumble recoveries, 3 tds, 1 safety
13x Pro Bowl, 2x Defensive Player of the Year, 2x Super Bowl Champion, 1x Super Bowl MVP, HoF
Points: 151
Votes: 12
Ranked Highest by: chrisrandolph1985 (1st)
Last edited by Percussion; July 13th, 2018 at 6:42 AM.
Is Lewis the best or second best NFL player to be charged with murder?
Shut up
I still think it'll be Reed but I'm surprised he will crack the top 4. Maybe a little overrated if it ends up being him. Granted I had him high. I had Reed #7 and Ray Lewis #9.
Ray Lewis is annoying as hell but he was damn good
I thought after a few weeks you might have some new material. I guess not.
Slight typo on Ray. He played til 2012 not 2002.
Consider this your last warning. Stop being an asshole, or find a new place to post.
thanks, yo.
It is funny. I think you may be the first person I have ever seen say Ed Reed was overrated. I thought his love was universal. What would you have liked for him to do that he did not? I consider him the most complete defensive player I have ever seen.
Deion wasn't paid to tackle. That is like complaining that Lawrence Taylor couldn't cover RBs and TEs.
He is the #7 best defensive player of all time in my book so I rate him pretty highly.
But in regard to what I would liked for him that he did not do, playing for the Patriots would have put him over the top.
Deion Sanders was like Randy Moss. So athletic and dominant that it affected entire game plans and halves of the field. Not sure any defender has ever had a bigger effect on distorting offenses than him.
It is sort of funny that on the day he shows up on this list, Ray Lewis becomes newsworthy for having his twitter followers cut in half from 700k to 350k because twitter deleted a bunch of fake accounts. FRAUD
#4
Ed Reed
Born: September 11, 1978
Years Active: 2002-2013
Height: 5'11 Weight: 205
College: University of Miami
Position: Safety
Stats: 643 total tackles, 6 sacks, 64 ints, 11 forced fumbles, 13 fumble recoveries, 9 tds, 1 safety
9x Pro Bowl, 3x Interception Leader, 1x Defensive Player of the Year, Most Int Return Yards All-Time, 1x Super Bowl Champion
Points: 156
Votes: 13
Ranked Highest by: _me (1st)
Always in the right spot. Always made the big play. Never scared of the moment.
Ed Reed at The U was a whole other animal too. Probably a big reason I ranked him #1. Never feared an opponent like I did Ed Reed (was a FSU fan). But he was just as good in the NFL.
And these two were the reason that defense was so damn great.
I'm guessing whoever left Ray off their list did so because of the off the field stuff.
Ray Lewis was so absolutely good at everything and was a terrific athlete and was cerebral as fuck. Best MLB of all time for my money.
Had I seen more of Reed in run support I'd have had him as the league's best ever safety instead of in the 15-20 range and Lott taking that safety title. Still an amazing talent and all time great anyway for what he did as a center field hawk and passing game diagnostician.
Run support wasn’t his job.
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