The Definitive G.O.A.T. List

[Percussion]

Just stumbled on this article/list by complex magazine from just last year, and think the subject's interesting enough to bring up here maybe for broad discussion on who are the kings of kings in sports. Here's their take, with more detail in the linked article itself, on who wear the crowns and who are right there with them..

Basketball: Michael Jordan
Runners-up: Bill Russell, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LeBron James

Football: Joe Montana
Runners-up: Jerry Rice, Lawrence Taylor, Tom Brady, Jim Brown

Baseball: Babe Ruth
Runners-up: Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Barry Bonds, Hank Aaron

Soccer: Pelé
Runners-up: Diego Maradona, Alfredo Di Stéfano, Johan Cruyff, Ronaldo

Tennis: Serena Williams
Runners-up: Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal, Billie Jean King, Martina Navratilova

Boxing: Muhammad Ali
Runners-up: Sugar Ray Robinson, Joe Louis, Sugar Ray Leonard, Floyd Mayweather

Wrestling: Ric Flair
Runners-up: “Stone Cold” Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson, The Undertaker

MMA: Anderson Silva
Runners-up: Jon Jones, Georges St-Pierre, Fedor Emelianenko, Demetrious Johnson

..I'd shuffle five other goats in from their 'finalists' (GSP, Austin, Robinson, Mays, and Brown) but not much else from the overall folks listed. Originally had Federer in tennis myself, but they make a strong case for Serena. I'd add hockey (Gretzky of course) and track (U Bolt).

So, how do your greatests compare? What other sports would you include (surely cricket, rugby, golf here. maybe f1, nascar)?

[Fanny Batter]

Federer would rank higher than Serena. I understand the argument for Williams, being the standard bearer for women's tennis through an unparalleled era of equality, but the women's game just isn't full of "hall of fame" level athletes in this era, whereas Federer's career has largely been competed at a time where another 3 of the top 10 greatest players of all time have been around. How many Grand Slam's does he win if Rafa, Novak and Murray aren't in the pot? He's won 19 and about another 18 or so he's lost in the final or semi final to one of those three. It's an outrageous career record. In about 15 years and nearly 60 Slams you can count on 2 hands his losses to players that are lower than the 10th best player of all time.

Football (soccer) is too historical. Messi has broken every record. I get the arguments for Pele and Maradona based on their success for their countries, but the shift in importance to club football over the last 40 years can't be ignored. It's a different game nowadays. Regardless, Messi is an outrageous talent who has done it over an extended period and helped his club sustain a remarkable level of success in such a competitive era. Cristiano is top 5 too, no doubt.

Boxing, I don't think you can mention Leonard without mentioning Duran. At one point he was 72-1, having avenged the defeat and won the trilogy, was a long reigning lightweight champion then beat Leonard for the welterweight title. He's a classic tale of a guy going on too long and racking up losses, but at his peak he was incredible. Ali will always be the cultural G.O.A.T. due to his mainstream impact, and while he was an unbelievable talent, most historians would put him behind the original Sugar Ray.

MMA - as talented as Anderson was, he's now an exposed cheater. So is Jones. St-Pierre has the best wins and a stronger strength of schedule in his prime years. Until Johnson has an equal and beats him, he's just behind. Fedor's greatness is romanticized a bit - Cro Cop and Nogueira were great wins, everyone else were simply good of the time.

[Percussion]

Good points on Federer.

Agreed on Messi. Just too much generational talent/skill continuously on display. When I was a kid getting into the sport from the states Beckenbauer and P Maldini seemed like guys who'd always be all-time finalists. But I don't follow euro club play like many others and don't know, but would like to hear, how those guys still stand up.

Boxing is tough. Litany of greats from past eras.. Willie Pep, Henry Armstrong, Duran, Harry Greb, Jack Johnson ..that make an all-time list a near insurmountable, but still fun, task. I think Ray Robinson takes it on overall skill/resume, and then you can shuffle in any 10 or so names and feel equally good and lacking in that list. Would have Mayweather at the bottom ten or so of that final tally.

Agreed 1000% on St. Pierre. Seeing what's happened to Jones, Fedor, and some others just continues to put GSP's monster career into more impressive perspective.

[Bandit]

Definitely think Brady is above Montana.

[Dr Isaac Yankem DDS]

Joe Montana over Brady haha. Look at the next person on the football list that’s why Montana isn’t the G.O.A.T.

[Simmo Fortyone]

Federer would rank higher than Serena. I understand the argument for Williams, being the standard bearer for women's tennis through an unparalleled era of equality, but the women's game just isn't full of "hall of fame" level athletes in this era, whereas Federer's career has largely been competed at a time where another 3 of the top 10 greatest players of all time have been around. How many Grand Slam's does he win if Rafa, Novak and Murray aren't in the pot? He's won 19 and about another 18 or so he's lost in the final or semi final to one of those three. It's an outrageous career record. In about 15 years and nearly 60 Slams you can count on 2 hands his losses to players that are lower than the 10th best player of all time.

I hear/read this a lot, and I don't buy it. Williams is so fucking dominant that no one else even looks like "hall of fame" level compared to her. If you removed Williams from the equation completely, players like Henin, Sharapova, Clijsters would have another 5-6 GS titles each and we'd be then talking about them being that HOF level.

[Pablo Diablo]

And yeah, for football, maybe had they made the decision before the Super Bowl last year I could possibly see them not giving it to Brady. But it's Brady.

I'm also biased but GSP takes the MMA one for me, but Silva is the one I would place right behind him.

Hockey I would go with the Great One

Golf looked like by this point it would have been Tiger Woods, but then that fateful Thanksgiving happened and he's not been the same since. So I'd say it's Jack Nicklaus.

[Spedizzo]

Ugh, Stone Cold or Hogan over Ric Flair. By far. Try to go back and watch Ric Flair matches from the territory days without wanting to slit your wrists. Hogan and Stone Cold are the reason wrestling is around today.

Tom Brady over Montana. His longevity, the differences in teams he has done it with, the fact that he is in another motherfucking Superbowl!!!, etc. He is the GOAT. Look at the teams Joe Montana had. Tom Brady just won a AFC Conference Title with fucking 55 year old Danny Amendola and nothing else! Amendola would barely start on another team. The Patriots take little white receivers and fill in the blanks.

I haven't seen Pele play and wonder how much was overrated/due to the times, but Fat Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo, and Lionel Messi are all worth consideration.

And I would replace Anderson Silva with Jon Jones, definitely.

[Bagel]

For hockey, off the top of my head there's Gretzky, Lemieux, Sawchuk should be part of the conversation....

[soxfanatic]

Kind of odd they left hockey off the list.

I think Gretzky is one. I would think Bobby Orr has to be one of the top five or so as well. Lemieux would be included. Maybe others like Gordie Howe. Even Messier would be near the top of my list along with Patrick Roy.

[Tyson]

Football - Tom Brady
Basketball - Michael Jordan
Hockey - Wayne Gretzky
Baseball - Hank Aaron
Tennis - Serena Williams
Golf - Tiger Woods
MMA - Georges St. Pierre
Boxing - Muhammed Ali
Soccer - Pele

[Percussion]

Kinda feel like football and baseball both need separate entries for quarterback and pitcher - eg, MVP and Cy Young.

Football - Jim Brown, Tom Brady
Baseball - Willie Mays, Sandy Koufax

[Fro]

It's hard to compare the guys you witnessed with the guys before your time. Tiger vs Jack is a good example. Jack has 18 majors, Tiger has 14. Tiger I think played in a time when golf was a bigger sport (in part thanks to him) with a wider field of international players. Probably tougher competition. And his run was incredibly impressive but longevity matters too and his reign came to an unfortunate early end given that his sport is one that lends itself to having success into your 40s. So who's better? I will say Tiger because he's the one I saw dominate the world. He, Michael Jordan and Tom Brady are the most impressive athletes I've ever seen in any sport. But I've never seen Jack win a championship so what do I know?

[Percussion]

But I've never seen Jack win a championship so what do I know?

Footage and historical accounts aren't invalid information.

[virms]

Kinda feel like football and baseball both need separate entries for quarterback and pitcher - eg, MVP and Cy Young.

Football - Jim Brown, Tom Brady
Baseball - Willie Mays, Sandy Koufax

I agree. The baseball one is especially hard for me.

[LOCONUT]

Football - Joe Montana
Basketball - Michael Jordan
Hockey - Wayne Gretzky
Baseball - Mickey Mantle
Tennis - Pete Sampras
Golf - Tiger Woods
MMA - Fedor
Boxing - Floyd Mayweather
Soccer - Pele
Wrestling - Goldberg

[Nash Diesel]

I personally think Michael Jordan is the GOAT, p4p greatest athlete ever. He's someone that I truly believe would have been the goat of any sport or profession in general that he chose to focus on 100%. If he wanted to be a boxer, he'd be incredible. If he wanted to be a surgeon, he would have been incredible.

[Fro]

I think being 6'6 and having big hands would make MJ a poor surgeon. You need to handle precision tools to be in that field.

I also disagree that he would have been the GOAT in any other sport except basketball.

[Nash Diesel]

I think being 6'6 and having big hands would make MJ a poor surgeon. You need to handle precision tools to be in that field.

I also disagree that he would have been the GOAT in any other sport except basketball.

He was more than just physical attributes.

[Percussion]

Love mj, but don't know that he could have been a top league pro at any other sport he'd have chosen, much less the goat at any/all of them.

If we were to have a greatest all around athlete ever rundown it would probably look something more like..

(no particular order)
Deion Sanders
Bo Jackson
Jim Thorpe
Jim Brown
Carl Lewis
Jackie Robinson
Jesse Owens

..rather than the best 'specialists' of all time.

[Dr Isaac Yankem DDS]

.

[Dr Isaac Yankem DDS]

I personally think Michael Jordan is the GOAT, p4p greatest athlete ever. He's someone that I truly believe would have been the goat of any sport or profession in general that he chose to focus on 100%. If he wanted to be a boxer, he'd be incredible. If he wanted to be a surgeon, he would have been incredible.

Lol someone listened to Clay Travis this morning to say something like this.

[Nash Diesel]

Love mj, but don't know that he could have been a top league pro at any other sport he'd have chosen, much less the goat at any/all of them.

If we were to have a greatest all around athlete ever rundown it would probably look something more like..

(no particular order)
Deion Sanders
Bo Jackson
Jim Thorpe
Jim Brown
Carl Lewis
Jackie Robinson
Jesse Owens

..rather than the best 'specialists' of all time.

I just look at the hardwork and dedication he put in toward basketball and think if he had put that much focus and dedication in any aspect of life he would be great.

Lol someone listened to Clay Travis this morning to say something like this.

First time I think I've ever heard of Clay Travis but I did look him up and saw that just a couple hours ago he was talking about Jordan v. Brady in terms of team sports being the goats.

[Dr Isaac Yankem DDS]

I just look at the hardwork and dedication he put in toward basketball and think if he had put that much focus and dedication in any aspect of life he would be great.



First time I think I've ever heard of Clay Travis but I did look him up and saw that just a couple hours ago he was talking about Jordan v. Brady in terms of team sports being the goats.

haha I was listening only reason I said it.

[Percussion]

Pretty good write-up on the matter boiling down to the two most personally accomplished American team sport GOATS of all-time..

Tom Brady vs. Michael Jordan for greatest GOAT: The scorecard

JORDAN - CAREER MARKS - BRADY

6 NBA titles - Championships - 5 Super Bowls

6-time Finals MVP - Championship honors - 4-time Super Bowl MVP

14-time NBA All-Star - All-Star honors - 13-time Pro Bowler

30-7 - Playoffs - 27-9

4th in career points - Leaderboard - T-3rd in career passing TD

2.18 (179 games) - Extra seasons in playoff games - 2.25 (36 games)

[Honey_Badger]

Ken Griffey, Jr. boys.

Jackie Robinson was incredibly overrated, as his cultural impact far exceeds his overall skill in comparison to other HOF baseball players.

[Percussion]

Jackie Robinson was a legit terrific overall athlete.

Tennis champion in high school.
Football, basketball, and baseball player at ucla.
NCAA long jump champion at ucla.
RoY and MVP in MLB.

Not sure where he's overrated honestly.

[NWo4LifeOr2Years]

Joe Montana over Brady haha. Look at the next person on the football list that’s why Montana isn’t the G.O.A.T.

No, it isn't.

Did you see both of them play? Their whole careers? I did and think it is quite debatable if you're into that sort of thing

Joe Cool never lost a Super Bowl, always came through in the clutch when given his shot, was highly mobile too.

Brady has has several well publicized failures vs the Giants and would've had a third had the Seattle coach not gifted the Patriots a win a few years back in the Super Bowl.

The final point of debate is how since the mid 1970's the rules have continually swung in favor of the offense. One cannot even recognize the game after every few years with the changes they make to help facilitate more scoring. So Brady has certainly had it easier than Montana.

[Morrison]

making it to 8 super bowls, even if you lose some of them, is just insane. when you go to twice as many super bowls as another dude, the law of averages isnt going to be on your side. and neither of the losses were brady's fault, so holding them against him is dumb.

the game is heavily slanted towards offense now, especially QB play. and yet not another QB even comes close to matching what brady has done.

[Percussion]

How clutch was Joe in the playoffs in '85, '86, and '87?

I love Montana, first great qb I ever really watched and followed so don't mean to dog the guy, but the argument for his perfection in the sb doesn't hold water when taking into account the times he failed to get there vs Brady.

[Fro]

I like how I don't need to be the one to argue Brady's goat status anymore.

[LOCONUT]

Montana was the best when I was a kid. He was like a hero and I genuinely hate SF sports teams. Also I dont want to say its Brady even though it likely is. So it is Montana.

[Fanny Batter]

I hear/read this a lot, and I don't buy it. Williams is so fucking dominant that no one else even looks like "hall of fame" level compared to her. If you removed Williams from the equation completely, players like Henin, Sharapova, Clijsters would have another 5-6 GS titles each and we'd be then talking about them being that HOF level.

I think it would be a push to compare the quality of that lot to Nadal, Djokovic, Murray and Wawrinka. They were all great tennis players but never really had prolonged consistency like those on the men's circuit. Only Venus can really push those guys in terms of getting to the latter stages of Slam's, whereas the Sharapova's and Henin's were often bounced before the quarters. Going from the start of 2004 (beginning of Fed's dominance) to now, obviously not even taking into account the numerous injuries of all 4 and that the other 3 didn't reach their peaks until a little later - 57 Grand Slams, so 228 semi final spots in play - 120 of those filled by Djokovic, Nadal, Federer and Murray. More than half. All 4 so much better than the competition, despite it being a strong era. I get the arguments against Federer in comparison to Serena (23 > 20, the prolific doubles career, the span between first and last Slam's, her finals records, Federer getting a good chunk of his haul before the other 3 peaked), but I just feel that 20 would be much greater if he played in any other era of tennis, as would the finals record. His haul on clay is his downfall stats-wise, because he came across the greatest player on a particular surface of all time in Nadal (97.5% win ratio at the French!). More finals, more semis, more quarters, and would have more Slam's if he didn't come across Rafael Nadal at the French Open. Without that Nadal he wins 10 Slams in a row, including 2 calendar year Grand Slams in a row, and there is no argument.

I wish tennis took a break out of the schedule after the US and before the tour finals and had a mixed doubles tournament with #1 seeded male teaming with #16 seeded female and so on. Would be a lot of fun, and at least let us see a bit of Roge vs. Serena on the court.