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Thread: Lord of the Rings + Amazon?

  1. #1
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    sweden

    Lord of the Rings + Amazon?

    So, there's talks that Warner Brothers and the Tolkien Estate are shopping around the LOTR license and that the front runner is Amazon and specifically their CEO Jeff Bezos, who is looking for "Amazon's Game of Thrones". Netflix and HBO has also been approached. The asking price is somewhere between $200 and $250 million and Amazon seems to be the one most willing to fork that up

    So is this a good idea or not? I love Tolkien, but LOTR is missing a lot of the stuff that made GoT such a phenomenon even among non-fantasy viewers, the political intrigue, nudity, foul language, hundreds of supporting characters, soap opera elements and much more will not be possible in a series based on Tolkien's work. LOTR is the greatest fantasy story ever created but it's still "just" fantasy and I have this feeling many that love GoT are not too thrilled about dragons and ice zombies but more the overall epic soap opera drama.

    Also, unlike GoT LOTR has already been done as live action and are some of the most watched and loved movies ever, Elijah Wood and Viggo Mortensen pretty are Frodo and Aragorn, is 16-14 years to soon for a new version of the same story? I guess it would be like if we had a Star Wars tv-series in 1991 with the same story as ANH, ESB and RoTJ with new actors portraying Luke, Han and Leia. One positive is that a tv show can include lots of the stuff that was left out of the movies due to time and budget restraints, the Scouring of the Shire, the Barrow Downs and Tom Bombadill comes to mind. Also, the SFX in LOTR has aged pretty well but it would be nice to see Tolkien's world done with modern, GoT level special effects.

    Personally I find it kind of interesting and exciting, but I wonder if it's such a great idea overall. I read that the projected cost per season would be around $100 million and with the added licensing cost being $200 to $250 million it's a heavy investment to make.

    http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/lord...on-1202606519/

    http://deadline.com/2017/11/lord-of-...on-1202201636/

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    World Champion lotjx's Avatar
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    I have heard they may not have rights to some of the characters. I find that hard to believe if they are doing a straight LOTR story. To me, trying to use LOTR as a way to be a new GOT is dumb. GOT was done to be the anti-LOTR. Main characters die, political intrigue trumps fighting a rising evil that will kill everyone and oh yea..the sex. I am ok with a Middle Earth show that deals with stuff after LOTR. I would like to see what people are doing with Aragon being King and the vacuum of power without the Elves around. Even if we don't see the LOTR characters, I am ok with that.

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    UNSTOPPABLE. UNBEATABLE. Judas Iscariot's Avatar
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    No thanks.

    Give me a Silmarillion show. It has to be a loose adaptation anyway so I don't care how it's done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judas Iscariot View Post
    No thanks.

    Give me a Silmarillion show. It has to be a loose adaptation anyway so I don't care how it's done.
    Yes, sir. Let's see the beginning of the beginning. Seeing the Balrogs emerge from the deepest pits of the earth, drawn by Melkor's shrieking... ugh, what a gasm that would be.

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    1-800-Call-My-Bluff Fro's Avatar
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    it's official:

    http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/lord...on-1202613609/

    said to explore new storylines preceding the Fellowship of the Ring. so it's not going to be the trilogy re-told.

    I will definitely be looking forward to it, although from Amazon's perspective it seems like a big financial gamble. better make it good.

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    World Champion lotjx's Avatar
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    Yea...prequel shit...no thanks.

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    I would prefer the Silmarillion, naturally. But there is no LotR that I won’t watch if it’s done even half well.

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    It could be interesting if they put a modern/adult tone to it. Big shoes to fill. Even with the LOTR license they are going to have to make this pretty insane for it to not be viewed as a cheap GOT rip off.

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    UNSTOPPABLE. UNBEATABLE. Judas Iscariot's Avatar
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    In what should have been obvious with this Amazon deal but wasn't to me, 93 year old Christopher Tolkien has resigned as the head of the Tolkien Estate. He's the reason we have everything in the Tolkien library post-Lord of the Rings, including the greatest thing ever, The Silmarillion, and countless other volumes of JRR's work and notes, and he hated every adaptation ever made of his father's work so he wouldn't allow them (his dad sold the rights to LOTR and The Hobbit in the 60s)

    This could open up a million possibilities.

    The Silmarillion is much darker and more dense than LOTR and if THAT is the prequel that winds up happening, there is a lot of room for the show runners to expand upon the stories there.

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    It might suck, but I'll still eat it up most likely.

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    But when there's money to be made it will be. I've said for the past 15 years or so that the moment Christopher Tolkien keels over we will see Silmarillion and lots of other stuff being made into movies, tv series, games, dolls and.. Coffee mugs? Shit, just the Silmarillion alone has endless merchandising possibilities.. Dragons? Balrogs? Ungoliant? Morgoth? Fall of Gondolin? Beren and Luthien? The curse of Túrin Turambar?

    $$$

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    World Champion Marlon Dingle's Avatar
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    I just can't imagine what it must be like to be the Tolkien heir that signed this contract. Literally $200 million for absolutely no work. Would also be good to be able to reanimate J.R.R. Tolkien and get his opinion on his grandson/grandaughter and what he is doing with that money.

    https://io9.gizmodo.com/j-r-r-tolkie...sta-1820476459

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    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    On one hand it's exciting because there's so much amazing material outside of LOTR. On the other hand, what if we end up with PJ making a Hobbit style slapstick comedy Silmarillion movie? 30 minute CGI ninja battle between Echtelion and Gothmog or comic relief, farting/burping Mïm The Petty dwarf anyone..

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    Legend Mik's Avatar
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    The Silmarillion in my opinion is the magnum opus of fantasy. If someone does it well, it’ll be phenomenal.

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    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    As for the Silmarillion, I have a feeling that if it should end up as a GoT style series on HBO/Netflix/Amazon/whatever with true fans that respect the professors work working on it with a limited budget, it could end up pretty great. If it somehow ends up on the big screen with a unlimited budget and greedy Hollywood producers pulling the strings, look out..

  17. #17
    Legend Mik's Avatar
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    Yeah, that would be terrible. GoT style would work perfectly though and isn’t exactly low budget. However they would unfortunately probably have to sex it up.

  18. #18
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    I know GoT has a big budget per episode but it's nothing compared to what a Silmarillion movie/trilogy/series would have on the big screen. The Hobbit trilogy had a combined $745-800 million budget or something, just imagine all the Dragons, Balrogs and Man of Steel style 30 minute CGI battles they could squeeze in with that kind of money. with a tv series budget they would probably have to restrict that stuff a bit, which is a good thing.

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    Legend Mik's Avatar
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    I don't think that you can do The Silmarillion on the big screen though, there are too many stories and it's all too involved and spans too much time and has too many different characters who wouldn't necessarily go from one film to the next, or would disappear and then come back.

    Hmm, lets think about it.

    Leave the Ainulindale and Valanquenta out altogether, or do it as a prologue.

    Then you do the story of Feanor and the making of the Silmarils in one film.
    Then the story of Beren and Luthien in another film.
    Then the story of Turin Turambar in one film.
    Then the fall of Gondolin.
    Then the story of Numenor.

    There's 5 solid film plots there, but all would need to continue the story of Melkor tying it all together.

    It's almost like a much classier Marvel Cinematic Universe really.

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    UNSTOPPABLE. UNBEATABLE. Judas Iscariot's Avatar
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    Fingolfin vs Morgoth would be an epic superhero fight on screen.

    Actually there would be a lot of epic superhero fights.

    They'd just have to do a Silmarillion series anthology style. They're all the rage these days and the stories lend themselves perfectly to that.

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    UNSTOPPABLE. UNBEATABLE. Judas Iscariot's Avatar
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    And sex it up, who cares? Beren was obviously banging Luthien and Thingol got all up in Melian's girdle.

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    Legend Mik's Avatar
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    Yeah actually the sons of Feanor would be another film and Tingol and Melian's story could be a film of it's own or just a constant throughout most of the other stories.

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    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    Speaking of sexing it up, I have a feeling that Túrin and Nienor would satisfy the GoT crowd..

    /There's also those insinuations that Celebrian was raped and molested by the orcs that kidnapped her, and that's why she never truly recovered and left Middle-Earth. Man, that would make for a pretty gruesome scene if it was to be shown on-screen..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I don't think that you can do The Silmarillion on the big screen though, there are too many stories and it's all too involved and spans too much time and has too many different characters who wouldn't necessarily go from one film to the next, or would disappear and then come back.

    Hmm, lets think about it.

    Leave the Ainulindale and Valanquenta out altogether, or do it as a prologue.

    Then you do the story of Feanor and the making of the Silmarils in one film.
    Then the story of Beren and Luthien in another film.
    Then the story of Turin Turambar in one film.
    Then the fall of Gondolin.
    Then the story of Numenor.

    There's 5 solid film plots there, but all would need to continue the story of Melkor tying it all together.

    It's almost like a much classier Marvel Cinematic Universe really.
    Bah gawd, if those could be made by competent, respectful people.. Makes me giddly thinking about it.

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    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD50 View Post
    I know GoT has a big budget per episode but it's nothing compared to what a Silmarillion movie/trilogy/series would have on the big screen. The Hobbit trilogy had a combined $745-800 million budget or something, just imagine all the Dragons, Balrogs and Man of Steel style 30 minute CGI battles they could squeeze in with that kind of money. with a tv series budget they would probably have to restrict that stuff a bit, which is a good thing.
    Uh, this series is rumored to have a budget of one BILLION dollars, that's pretty insane if true. The LOTR trilogy cost $280 million and The Hobbit around $655-800 million (depending on the source).

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    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    The German IGN site has made an inquiry at Amazon about the new Middle-Earth series. In their reply, Amazon surprisingly communicated a first relevant date for the series:

    "We are now in the process of planning, as the shooting take place in 2019".

    Meaning that the series' start will likely be in 2020. And first information on casting and storyline probably in 2018.
    http://de.ign.com/tv/126528/news/der...erien-adaption

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    Amazon has announced that JD Payne and Patrick McKay will be the writers for this series. Apparently they are co-writing the upcoming Star Trek 4 movie. I've never heard of either, so no idea if it's a good thing or not.

    Not much news but nice to something is happening at least.

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    Will watch every episode.

    Terrified I'm going to hate it.

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    Amazon’s ‘Lord of the Rings’ prequel update

    • S1 will have 20 episodes with a $200M budget

    • Amazon already has plans for 5 seasons

    • Takes place in the Second Age, which spans 3,441 years & includes Sauron's rise to power. The First Age and Third Age (where the events of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings happen) are off-limits in this series.

    • Aiming for 2021 release

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    What is it with these fantasy worlds, they have thousands of years of history but no one ever invented anything. Lazy.

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    Intriguing. I have high hopes for this because Amazon has optioned a couple of my favorite book series and I'd like to see them come to life if this does well.

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    That’s a lot of budget that could be going to The Expanse (is what I will say if the show ends up shit)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
    Intriguing. I have high hopes for this because Amazon has optioned a couple of my favorite book series and I'd like to see them come to life if this does well.
    Yeah theyre doing the Dark Tower series. Which looks like it's just going to be the Wizard and Glass series at this point. God I hope they don't fuck it up.

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    Not asleep The Beer Monster's Avatar
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    They absolutely will if the films anything to go by.

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    The film was one of the most badly butchered adaptations I’ve seen in recent memory.

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    Not asleep The Beer Monster's Avatar
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    People love to fuck up Stephen King adaptations. Its tradition.

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    He’s also has had some of the best adaptations too.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Beer Monster View Post
    People love to fuck up Stephen King adaptations. Its tradition.
    The Green Mile, Stand By Me, Shawshank Redemption, Misery, The Shining, Carrie to name but a few to take your point and do a poo on it.

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    The theory (which I'm partial to), that The Dark Tower was a continuation of the story, rather than an adaptation, is the only thing which gives it any semblance of worth. Bloody awful.

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    Not asleep The Beer Monster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Rosk View Post
    The Green Mile, Stand By Me, Shawshank Redemption, Misery, The Shining, Carrie to name but a few to take your point and do a poo on it.
    Double poo on you, how about Under The Dome, Dreamcatcher, Thinner, Maximum Overdrive, Lawnmower Man, Needful Things, The Mangler and The Shining (yeah you heard me, The Shining its stupid).

  41. #41
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    Haven't seen any of them so can't comment. Shove your poo back up your own arse.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by JP View Post
    The theory (which I'm partial to), that The Dark Tower was a continuation of the story, rather than an adaptation, is the only thing which gives it any semblance of worth. Bloody awful.
    It’s the only thing that makes it not the worst adaptation of all time.

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    I quite liked Thinner.

  44. #44
    1-800-Call-My-Bluff Fro's Avatar
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    Looks pretty great IMO

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    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    Yikes, I started this thread in 2017 and now there's an entire 51 second teaser.. Season 3 of the Shannara Chronicles is looking pretty decent I guess.

  46. #46
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    I’m in.

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    Looks like Narnia lite.

  48. #48
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    Looks like Shannara/Narnia/Wheel of Time-esque trash with a bit of Jeanne d'Arc (1999) sprinkled on top. When I watched the trailer on Monday morning I honestly thought the first few seconds were an ad for some kind of Assassins Creed game, looked like a decent PS4 cut scene to me. But whatever, I won't watch it so no need to bash n' trash. I'm actually happy for anyone that's excited for it. I'm slightly curious who "Meteor Man" is though.

    The only Tolkien project I'm looking forward to is the War of the Rohirrim anime project which is unfortunately not out until April, 2024.. The creative team includes Philippa Boyens (screenwriter LOTR), Richard Taylor (visual effects LOTR), Alan Lee and John Howe (legendary Tolkien artists and art directors on LOTR) so you just now it will look and feel like PJ's trilogy. The story is supposed to be centered around Helm Hammerhand (Helms Deep is named after him) and the war against the Dunlendings so it's slightly surprising to see what looks like Haradrim advancing against Edoras. Should be cool though.

  49. #49
    1-800-Call-My-Bluff Fro's Avatar
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    I can see what you guys are saying about the visuals, but regardless, I think the writing and acting is loads more important than how good the show looks. It can look like Narnia if the scripts are on point and the characters are well developed. Of course I have no idea if it will be any of those things, but we'll see.

  50. #50
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    It could very well end up being a pretty decent show for sure and if it was some generic fantasy setting I might even check it out, but just no, it isn't Tolkien or Middle-Earth by a long shot and just waay off from the source material. I have a feeling that if Christopher Tolkien was still alive and Tom Shippey didn't get canned by Amazon this show would have looked a whole lot different, if it was ever made at all.

    Anyway , for some reason I was pondering "Disa" the dwarven princess and came up with a pretty interesting background for her that would make her more in line with canon. So, anyone who knows their Tolkien lore knows that there are the seven houses of the dwarves, the most notable being the "Longbeards" who are direct descendants from Durin the Deathless and all the way through Thror, Thrain, Thorin, Dain, Gloin, Gimli etc. Tolkien writes very little about the other six houses though and it got me thinking that "Disa" could belong to the "Blacklocks". That house originated from the area around Rhun which is the same area that the Easterlings originate from. Rhun could be seen as sort of a mismash of the persians, the Byzantine and maybe a bit of ancient Egypt and some oriental civilizations baked in there (Harad and Far Harad are basically northern Africa/Africa). I think Disa's appearance and especially her outfit looks perfect for a dwarven house originating from an area similar to ancient Egypt/Byzantine.

    This isn't canon but an artists rendition of how the Blacklocks could possible look. Definitely feels like a mix of some oriental and ancient middle eastern cultures to me.



    Maybe Disa joined her father on a trip to Khazad-dum for a great meeting of the seven houses, and there she met and fell in love with prince Durin III.

    Here's a pretty good rendition on how the seven houses could possibly appear. Left to right: Stiffbeards, Stonefoots, Broadbeams, Longbeards, Firebeards, Ironfists, Blacklocks.

    Last edited by OD50; February 17th, 2022 at 6:54 AM.

  51. #51
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    New Vanity Fair article on "The Rings of Power":
    https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...rings-of-power

    Biggest takeaway I guess are that they reveal the four major plot-lines, and in what order they will appear:


  52. #52
    Her right to choose… Tyson's Avatar
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    That was a great read, thanks OD.

  53. #53
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    Concerning "Meteor Man"..

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    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    First full length trailer:



    As dubious as this series is there are some cool bits in there.

  55. #55
    World Champion lotjx's Avatar
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    This could be really good or it could a pain the ass to get through.

  56. #56
    FBI Warning VHS's Avatar
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    Needs more diversity.

  57. #57
    E-Bow The Poster Rancid_Planet's Avatar
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    All the orcs are the same color.

    Racisssssssss.

  58. #58
    World Champion lotjx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rancid_Planet View Post
    All the orcs are the same color.

    Racisssssssss.
    Honestly, can you really tell them apart...

  59. #59
    E-Bow The Poster Rancid_Planet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotjx View Post
    Honestly, can you really tell them apart...
    Eastern orcs walk like this but orcs of Mordor walk like that.

  60. #60
    FBI Warning VHS's Avatar
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    Can’t show any Uruk Hai tho, noooo can’t show dark skinned orcs being evil can we?


  61. #61
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VHS View Post
    Can’t show any Uruk Hai tho, noooo can’t show dark skinned orcs being evil can we?

    The first first Uruks appeared in 2475 of the third age, which should be 3000+ years after this show takes place. Sarumans elite Uruk-hai first appeared during the War of the Ring in the very late third age (3017-3019'ish). So I'd actually give the show-runners a pass on that one. The cheeky in-universe reason that all Orcs (seemingly) are white/pale in this show is that they have been hiding underground since the War of Wrath in the first age killed most of them off. In reality it's probably just the show-runners trying to steer far away from the old shitty Tolkien/orcs/racism talks.

    /Might add that with all the messing around with the timeline they've done for this show it wouldn't be a huge shocker to see Uruk-hai pop up 3000 years early tho.
    Last edited by OD50; July 24th, 2022 at 3:06 PM.

  62. #62
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    Latest trailer:



    (Possible) spoilers:
    Last edited by OD50; August 24th, 2022 at 3:02 AM.

  63. #63
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    So, I watched episode 1 & 2 so I could judge it somewhat fairly,


    If I didn't know and saw this picture I'd think it was from some weird Roman empire fantasy show. If you remove the (somewhat) pointy ears they definitely look like some kind of Roman legionaries to me, not elves.



    I will probably not watch this show anymore* but possibly give House of the Dragon a chance instead, episodes 1 and 2 of that wasn't great but pretty decent I think.

    *On second thought I might give it a chance and just try to separate it from actual Tolkien lore and writings, kind of like Marvel's old "What If..?" series or some kind of multiverse story. Just watch and pretend it's some generic fantasy show.

    /Not to be too much of an old, grumpy grognard but I seriously doubt this show will make it past season 2, I just don't think enough people will bother subscribing to Amazon Prime to off-set the astronomical costs of producing this ($60 million per episode I believe).
    Last edited by OD50; September 3rd, 2022 at 2:02 PM.

  64. #64
    World Champion lotjx's Avatar
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    I really liked it.

  65. #65
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    Nice. How versed are you in Tolkien's lore? I'm thinking my so-so view on this show (so far) is because of my bias for Tolkien and his original writings. So far this show is about 95% made up stuff and the remaining 5% are like alternate reality versions of canon (like Finrod dying while hunting Saron for example, they did put the claw marks on his arm to be somewhat true to the lore I guess). I have a feeling people who never read the books will enjoy the show quite a bit more, like I mentioned above I feel it's perfectly decent fantasy inspired by the professor but it's faar from any kind of adaption.

  66. #66
    Cirque du Soleil Chris's Avatar
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    I have found this a real slog so far. Episode 1 in particular felt dull, with uber serious and over-written conversations. There’s lot of world building which I usually like and Morfydd Clark is the standout of the cast, but it just didn’t grip me. Episode 2 was better now that we’re seeing orcs and building the Stranger’s story.

    I think it’s unfortunate that this is out at the same time as House of the Dragon, which has had a much stronger start than I expected and has done a far better job establishing a range of characters and setting up clear threads for the rest of the season.

  67. #67
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    I think episode 3 was pretty good although the series as a whole is fairly slow. The CGI on the warg was sort of dodgy and the design made me think of those weird wolf-hound things from Willow..

  68. #68
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    I think the show is good so far but I'll be honest, the only Lord of the Rings stuff I've found that I truly liked was the original trilogy and the animated Hobbit movie from way back in the day. The Hobbit movies, they looked good but those first 3 movies are just so incredible it's almost like the Star Wars situation. Nothing Star Wars has done on screen has come close to EP 4-6. Some were close, imo all were decent except Ep1, but none were as good.

    This season will probably set the table for what's to come. Many great shows had a mediocre season 1. 2 of my favorite shows, The Walking Dead and The Shield, the 1st season wasn't the best or even 3rd best.

  69. #69
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    The LotR trilogy is pretty much a masterpiece we will never see the likes of again. The Rankin-Bass animated Hobbit is good fun (although it condenses the story a lot), the PJ Hobbit movies not so much, although I do like quite a bit of An Unexpected Journey. The Desolation of Smaug is pretty bad all around and Battle of the Five Armies is probably one of the worst movies I've ever seen. For anyone who enjoys comics I can really recommend The Hobbit graphic novel, it's the most faithful adaptation you will ever see and the art is tremendous.

    I actually really like the animated/rotoscoped Ralph Bakshi Lord of the Rings from 1978, although it's quite quirky at times, being made in the 70's and all. Unfortunately only one film was made (FotR/TTT) while the second (RotK) was scrapped due to the director having issues with United Artists I believe.

    If this show actually makes it through all planned seasons I can imagine the final one being quite exciting, being centered around War of the Last Alliance (the prologue from Fellowship of the Ring).

    /Oh and I really like that the orcs (and the warg) have been portrayed as somewhat menacing and as a threat to the heroes so far. Usually orcs and even PJ's massive uruk-hai isn't much more than Barry Horowitz type cannon fodder.

    I will spoiler this just in case..


    Not sure how "Adar" who seems to be some kind of corrupted elf fit in with the orcs. As far as I know there are no instances in canon of any elves being associated with orcs* or even being truly evil, although some like Féanor, his sons, Maeglin and Eöl the Dark Elf certainly walks a fine line.

    *Elves that was captured, mutilated and actually being turned into orcs by Morgoth notwithstanding.
    Last edited by OD50; September 9th, 2022 at 10:48 AM.

  70. #70
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    So, this show came and went like a billion dollar fart in the wind.. Did anyone make it through all eight episodes and actually enjoy it throughout? I threw in the towel after episode six I believe.

  71. #71
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD50 View Post
    So, this show came and went like a billion dollar fart in the wind.. Did anyone make it through all eight episodes and actually enjoy it throughout? I threw in the towel after episode six I believe.
    I'll say this. It was good. For me, it usually takes more than one season to really decide if a show is awesome. The Shield for example, I wasn't a big fan of the first 2 seasons but once the 3rd kicked off it became my favorite show. Walking Dead, Oz, Breaking Bad, True Blood, all shows I consider my favorites and it took more than 8 episodes.

    The problem with LOTR is that it's such a huge universe and there's so much you can dive into that 8 episodes just aren't enough. Luckily for us, there will be more and they can learn from whatever mistakes people think they've made and hopefully satisfy more. The expectations are just astronomical.

    Here's something I'm hoping maybe you can educate me on. So I have friend, they're black, and when I told them "so far so good" after watching the 2nd episode her response was, and I quote from her IG message "Glad u like it...there's a lot of racial idiocy surrounding it unfortunately. I agree that Middle Earth as is reality is diverse! and this show should reflect it"

    I have no clue what that means other than a vague memory from 5-10 years ago where people were trying to say Orcs represented black people. I fucking laughed. I'm biracial my mother is black and not once did I ever watch LOTR and think "Oh shit this is blacks versus whites!"

  72. #72
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    Here's something I'm hoping maybe you can educate me on. So I have friend, they're black, and when I told them "so far so good" after watching the 2nd episode her response was, and I quote from her IG message "Glad u like it...there's a lot of racial idiocy surrounding it unfortunately. I agree that Middle Earth as is reality is diverse! and this show should reflect it"

    I have no clue what that means other than a vague memory from 5-10 years ago where people were trying to say Orcs represented black people. I fucking laughed. I'm biracial my mother is black and not once did I ever watch LOTR and think "Oh shit this is blacks versus whites!"
    First part I'd rather not even get into, that discussion was such a shitshow for months and months before the show even started.

    For the second part the earliest claims I can find of "Tolkien was racist" are from a guy named Dr. Stephen Shapiro who made that claim just before the Two Towers premiered in 2002, since then there has been various claims that orcs are Tolkien's version of black people. Tolkien describes one orc as being "swart" or "swartish" which basically means dark, he describes another orc as being "sallow" which means unhealthy/sickly pale. One orc (in Mordor) is being described as black-skinned. If anyone has any right to be a bit offended I'd say it's peeps from Mongolia/Asia since Tolkien at one point describes orcs as; "repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types"

    If I had to guess I think it's more likely that the orcs could be somewhat inspired by the Japanese (not black people) since the LotR trilogy was written during WWII (1937-1949) though it was published in 1954.

    But yeah, I read the Hobbit in 1987 and the LotR trilogy in 1988 and the thought that orcs were black people (or asians) never crossed my mind either.

  73. #73
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD50 View Post
    First part I'd rather not even get into, that discussion was such a shitshow for months and months before the show even started.

    For the second part the earliest claims I can find of "Tolkien was racist" are from a guy named Dr. Stephen Shapiro who made that claim just before the Two Towers premiered in 2002, since then there has been various claims that orcs are Tolkien's version of black people. Tolkien describes one orc as being "swart" or "swartish" which basically means dark, he describes another orc as being "sallow" which means unhealthy/sickly pale. One orc (in Mordor) is being described as black-skinned. If anyone has any right to be a bit offended I'd say it's peeps from Mongolia/Asia since Tolkien at one point describes orcs as; "repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types"

    If I had to guess I think it's more likely that the orcs could be somewhat inspired by the Japanese (not black people) since the LotR trilogy was written during WWII (1937-1949) though it was published in 1954.

    But yeah, I read the Hobbit in 1987 and the LotR trilogy in 1988 and the thought that orcs were black people (or asians) never crossed my mind either.
    I think you answering the 2nd part helped me understand the first part of my post from my friend. She's someone who doesn't do much research outside of a story on Facebook or Instagram.

    I just feel like people want to find something racist in these stories (not just LOTR) as a way to tear down something popular. So they overthink text from 70 years ago and here we are.

  74. #74
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    Well, let's just say that there was (is?) quite the debate over Amazon's decision to add diverse elves, dwarves and hobbits to the show. I'm guessing that's the stuff your friend refers to. The Amazon studio does have an actual diversity/inclusion policy they need to adhere to, so I'm not sure how anyone could've expected anything different though.

    https://deadline.com/2021/06/amazon-...ok-1234776831/
    Last edited by OD50; October 22nd, 2022 at 3:04 AM.

  75. #75
    Her right to choose… Tyson's Avatar
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    I made it through the complete season.

    Through seven episodes, I was ambivalent about it; the finale itself was fucking amazing, it increased my interest in season two considerably.

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