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Thread: The Global Wrestling War

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    The Global Wrestling War

    There were many wrestling wars in the early days, territory v territory, organisations breaking away from the NWA then getting drawn back in. Then Vince closed down the territorial system and sparked the first national wrestling war with WCW. We will never see anything like the Monday night wars again, WWE's grasp on the US is too tight and their control over talent too total. The next war is global and it is well under way.

    The Monday night wars were like the Second World War, total war with nothing but total annihilation of the enemy as the main goal. The new war is more like the Cold War, the battles will not be fought on prime time TV but using allies in wrestling venues around the world. Like the Cold War this is a battle of ideologies:

    The Sports Entertainers. Here character is key, the story is usually told using promos and skits and the in ring action is often a sideline to arguments, social media and posing. This is Vince's vision of wrestling and it has spread across the globe. The WWE is on TV in almost every country on earth, it is easy to translate and understand. Now they are attempting to localise the product. The UK tournament was just the start; the WWE will sign alliances with wrestling companies in every major market in the world. The allies get global recognition and loans of WWE talent, the WWE get access to every wrestler on the planet and a steady income from their local productions. WWE are already working with Progress, ICW, Evolve and OTT, who is next?

    The Wrestlers. Here wrestling is treated as a sport with fewer promos and skits. The stories are told in the ring and the expectation is that everyone who steps between the ropes is able to perform at a high level. This used to be very popular in the States, now Vince has taken over. New Japan lead the way now and are allied with Revolution Pro and ROH, can they bring workrate based wrestling back to the US or is that market gone? Defrost posted their CEO's recent comments, they are coming to the states in the next few years and WWE better watch out.

    This is not a war of annihilation, the global wrestling war is about winning hearts and minds across the world. The internet has opened up the world, anyone with broadband internet can pay $9.99 or 999 yen to join either side. Battle is already being waged in the US, Japan and the UK. As the middle classes in developing nations get bigger and bigger the war will move to India and China. As with the Cold War it is likely to be internal strife rather than enemy action that ends the conflict but like the Cold War it could go on for a long time.
    Last edited by Bad Collin; January 18th, 2017 at 5:57 PM.

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    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    sweden
    I pay •999/month for NJPW World even though I can DL anything they put on for free, just because I like what they do.

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    Oh so Sweden's immediately siding with the Japanese? Well I'm not shopping at IKEA anymore, i'll tell you that.

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    When you're with the WWE, you're with the WWE... 4... Life.

    I think WWE has created this weird monopoly where I can see a majority of people objectively seeing them as the lesser product compared to New Japan, for example. But because they're such a global brand, they'll never suffer for business. The Vince vision vs Trips vision for the company is a good war to follow internally.

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    Does NJPW's streaming service have English commentary?

    I really just can't enjoy it with out commentary I can understand. I know so little history for their wrestlers that I feel like I'm missing key stuff if I don't have English commentary.

    I love the work I've seen out of NJPW and I think with more.english I could be a huge mark for it.

  6. #6
    Rush
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    We should have a semi-weekly rajah wide language class where we all learn Japanese together.

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    Does frosty speak Japanese? Is he Japanese?

    I know nothing about defrost

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    Kevin Kelly and Cyrus of all people will be doing commentary for at least one show a month on NJPW

    As for me I am a white guy named John who has either lived in New Jersey or Florida his whole life

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    brazil
    Quote Originally Posted by Jordo View Post
    Does NJPW's streaming service have English commentary?
    It does, yes. This year most shows worth watching will have English commentary. Unfortunately Steve Corino has left for WWE which is a shame because he was good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kangus View Post
    We should have a semi-weekly rajah wide language class where we all learn Japanese together.
    Don't bother. I had a Navy friend stationed in Japan and he decided to live there. He obviously picked up Japanese. I visited a several times and they would pretend they had no idea what he was talking about. His wife had to jump in and say a word or two ever so slightly different. Then they were like, "oh, ok." My friend were looking at each other with sour face like, "sure, whatever." Getting deeper into the issue, I don't know if they refuse to listen to you unless you pronounce everything perfectly, if it's a gaijin thing, or if they legitimately cannot understand.

    He said that it took him about 4-5 years after he thought he learned Japanese to where he could truly communicate fluently.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by stylepoints View Post
    Don't bother. I had a Navy friend stationed in Japan and he decided to live there. He obviously picked up Japanese. I visited a several times and they would pretend they had no idea what he was talking about. His wife had to jump in and say a word or two ever so slightly different. Then they were like, "oh, ok." My friend were looking at each other with sour face like, "sure, whatever." Getting deeper into the issue, I don't know if they refuse to listen to you unless you pronounce everything perfectly, if it's a gaijin thing, or if they legitimately cannot understand.

    He said that it took him about 4-5 years after he thought he learned Japanese to where he could truly communicate fluently.
    That actually is an issue with that language. There are so many words that sound almost identical that there are times that native Japanese speakers will be subtitled on Japanese tv.

  12. #12
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    We often have subtitles for Scottish people

  13. #13
    GO ON LAD Fanny Batter's Avatar
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    I think it's imperative for NJPW to get New Japan World in English (and Portugese, French etc.) and apped up on the games consoles, smart TV's and so on. I like the product but I'm not watching on my phone or my shitty laptop. If they had a PS4 app they'd get my money simply put. I don't think with the prices on offer there's a "war" either, I think big TV fans would have both Netflix and Amazon Prime (and Roku), and at an overall annual outlay of less than 250 notes I think big wrestling fans would be happy to pay for both. The wrestling fan has historically been exploited financially so every WWE PPV ever (including 16-20 new ones annually), every WCW Nitro and PPV ever, pretty much every ECW show ever, all Raw's, pretty much every Smackdown, NXT, the rest of the exclusives, every major NJPW match over the last 5 years, every future NJPW shows live, all January 4th shows in history, most G1 Climax finals and everything else, all for the price US fans would have paid for FOUR WWE PPV's 4 years ago. So the hardcore fan has traded 13 hours of content for 8000 or so. So I don't think they're competing for punters, and that should be stressed with the marketing.

  14. #14
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    I don't think they are competing for hardcore fans but the casual punter probably won't have more than one wrestling streaming service, that is where the big money will come from.

    I actually find it easier to watch New Japan World than the WWE Network because it has Chromecast support, it's a nightmare getting the network on most tvs.

  15. #15
    GO ON LAD Fanny Batter's Avatar
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    It's a hardcore wrestling fan's product though. The guy that orders 'Mania every year isn't going to stop that by watching a dude called Kazuchika Okada wrestle at 10 in the morning. There's the whole language barrier and cultural difference in terms of presentation that just wouldn't resonate with Joe Public. They would basically have to rebrand, which would defeat the purpose in the first place. If they're serious aabout building the brand worldwide, it has to be aimed at big wrestling fans. Then when you've got a solid base you can make the subtle alterations that can help you gain traction.

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    Meltzer:

    "New Japan is going to be like Crockett promotions in trying to fight, and lose. Everybody else is going to be gobbled up by trying to be friends and lose. That's kinda the direction for the next 3-4 years."

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    One difference could be that when the old farts (JCP/AWA/World Class etc = Pro Wrestling USA) tried to work together to take on the WWF there was just too much old beef and ego going on and they pretty much fucked themselves over. Surely the non-WWE leagues of today could work together much more effectively and less ego driven, just like NJPW/ROH already are.

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    New Japan would work as a great alternative to the WWE if they could lock down JR and someone else (doesn't he do commentary with Josh Barnett?) and make him the official "American voice of Japanese wrestling". There's still nobody better right now in explaining an angle, a character motivation, or just the inner-workings of a match than Ross.

    And UFC just shit canned Mike Goldberg. Japanese wrestling fans seem to have a boner for UFC/MMA shit, so NJPW could scoop him right up to co-anchor things with Ross.

    As long as there's a solid American announce team in place, it doesn't matter if your wrestlers are American, Japanese, or Martian. They can subtitle the wrestlers and have the announcers fill in the gaps. Japanese wrestling doesn't need a great deal of extrapolation anyway. Its usually "guys wrestle for title" or "guys wrestle for honor and glory". Not hard to explain. But get two guys who can explain it well.

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    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    sweden
    My problem is that do the general/casual wrestling audience really want pro wrestling that is presented as a sport? I suspect the fan at Full Sail University or the Empress Ballroom is very, very different from the average viewer. It took what, two weeks before the WWE CW division built on skill and athleticism turned into days of our lives, with relationship drama and comedy segments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Defrost View Post
    Kevin Kelly and Cyrus of all people will be doing commentary for at least one show a month on NJPW

    As for me I am a white guy named John who has either lived in New Jersey or Florida his whole life
    Is your second name Canton

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    No

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    The WWE already has an ongoing relationship with companies such as Progress and Evolve. They are openly expanding their hand to willing participants and partnering with companies, unlike 15 years ago when they were ego driven. There is no chance in hell, no pun intended, any company, or companies, could come together and take down the Global giant that is World Wrestling Entertainment.

    WWE records 659 million in revenue in 2015. The 2015 revenue for NJPW was 27.3 million.

    Any discussion of a Global wrestling war is ridiculous.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo View Post
    Meltzer:
    "I can really see that New Japan is going to end up being like Crockett Promotions in trying to fight [WWE] and lose. Everybody else is going to be gobbled up by trying to be friends [with WWE] and lose. That's the direction for however long this is going to be, probably the next 3-4 years."
    - Dave Meltzer, January 19, 2017 Wrestling Observer Radio

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    How does one win this war?

    It seems the only way to "win" would be to take WWE down a few pegs on the profit and ratings front or perhaps run them out of the business. I think if you don't have a viable American TV deal then you aren't winning a global war.

  25. #25
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    The WWE want a global wrestling monopoly, if New Japan are still around in 3-4 years and have made themselves viable in the long term then I think they will have won.

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    Having never ventured outside of WWE, I hope WWE survives and puts everyone else out of business because I do really enjoy the WWE.

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    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by Defrost View Post
    "I can really see that New Japan is going to end up being like Crockett Promotions in trying to fight [WWE] and lose. Everybody else is going to be gobbled up by trying to be friends [with WWE] and lose. That's the direction for however long this is going to be, probably the next 3-4 years."
    - Dave Meltzer, January 19, 2017 Wrestling Observer Radio
    That got me thinking of this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Takaaki Kidani
    One proposed idea would be for the WWE to show NJPW footage [on the Network], but this type of proposal just shows that they don't see us as competition. Play NJPW footage on the Network, see if any of our wrestlers gain popularity, then buy that wrestler out; that's probably the extent of their thoughts on it. It's a very obvious strategy
    New Japan was obviously smart enough to realize this. Is there any talk of WWE adding say some of these British promotions to the network? They should prepare to lose whatever stars they have and to get "gobbled up" in that case.

  28. #28
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    ICW should be announced as going on the network any day and big Dave reckons that a deal with Progress is close.

  29. #29
    GO ON LAD Fanny Batter's Avatar
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    So the WWE's aim is basically to run the top "national" promotion everywhere through cooperation and eventually solvency through employment of the regional owners? Like this eventual UK TV show and presumably an accompanying house show circuit will negate the purpose of PROGRESS on the scene, but the guys there would take production jobs within the WWE. And so on through Japan and Mexico. Likely they'll team up with All Japan or Dragon Gate, split some talent while trying to raid NJPW, then repeat the process. It's ambitious, but there could be a point where WWE could basically have 6 self sufficient, televised, touring brands under the umbrella (Raw, Smackdown, NXT, UK, Mexico, Japan), and they know there's profitable markets because of the successes of CMLL, NJPW, ICW etc. Sneaky fuckers.

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    sweden
    VKM is a predatory businessman and shit like this is what he does. He raided the AWA roster in the early 80's, Mid-South in the mid 80's and JCP in the mid/late 80's.

    AWA:
    Hulk Hogan
    Jesse Ventura
    Dave Schultz
    Mean Gene
    Bobby Heenan
    Ken Patera
    Wendi Richter
    Adrian Adonis
    Jim Brunzell

    Later on he nabbed the Midnight Rockers and Curt Hennig, pretty much the only good young up and comers they had left.

    Mid-South
    Junkyard Dog
    Hacksaw Jim Duggan
    Ted DiBiase
    Jake Roberts
    Koko B. Ware
    Butch Reed
    One Man Gang
    Hercules

    Various NWA territories lost stars like..
    Roddy Piper
    Greg Valentine
    Ricky Steamboat
    Brisco Brothers
    Bob Orton
    Barry Windham
    Mike Rotundo

    Jim Crockett Promotions/WCW
    Dusty Rhodes
    Arn Anderson
    Tully Blanchard
    Ronnie Garvin
    Bushwhackers
    Big Bossman
    Terry Taylor
    Road Warriors
    Powers of Pain
    Nasty Boys

  31. #31
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    sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by Fanny Batter View Post
    So the WWE's aim is basically to run the top "national" promotion everywhere through cooperation and eventually solvency through employment of the regional owners? Like this eventual UK TV show and presumably an accompanying house show circuit will negate the purpose of PROGRESS on the scene, but the guys there would take production jobs within the WWE. And so on through Japan and Mexico. Likely they'll team up with All Japan or Dragon Gate, split some talent while trying to raid NJPW, then repeat the process. It's ambitious, but there could be a point where WWE could basically have 6 self sufficient, televised, touring brands under the umbrella (Raw, Smackdown, NXT, UK, Mexico, Japan), and they know there's profitable markets because of the successes of CMLL, NJPW, ICW etc. Sneaky fuckers.
    Look what is happening with the UFC since the WME-IMG sale. Slowly but surely pretty much everyone from the "old" UFC is phased out and are getting replaced with WME-IMG people. Same will happen to anyone of these smaller promotions.

  32. #32
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    When you sleep with devil the only thing you can hope for is that he at least pays you decently for it..

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    So is the WWE wanting to become a modern era NWA? How weird would that be? A company who spearheaded breaking away from tradition with the NWA and creating something bigger than the NWA ever was...turning into the NWA lol.

  34. #34
    Main Eventer chatty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    So is the WWE wanting to become a modern era NWA? How weird would that be? A company who spearheaded breaking away from tradition with the NWA and creating something bigger than the NWA ever was...turning into the NWA lol.
    Aint that just the circle if life. Vince probably wanted to break away cause he wasnt in control, took control and now strives to be the thing he wanted out of. Thats how most business' work tbf. Everyone just wants to be king.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chatty View Post
    Aint that just the circle if life. Vince probably wanted to break away cause he wasnt in control, took control and now strives to be the thing he wanted out of. Thats how most business' work tbf. Everyone just wants to be king.
    That's why they all broke away from the NWA. WWWF, WCW, TNA, ECW, they all branched off because they didn't agree with what the NWA were wanting to do.

  36. #36
    Main Eventer chatty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    That's why they all broke away from the NWA. WWWF, WCW, TNA, ECW, they all branched off because they didn't agree with what the NWA were wanting to do.
    Yeah but all of those made a play to takeover as well. They just all wanted to be top dog. WWE won and conquered the market, they are now just trying to sweep up.

  37. #37
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  38. #38
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chatty View Post
    Yeah but all of those made a play to takeover as well. They just all wanted to be top dog. WWE won and conquered the market, they are now just trying to sweep up.
    I don't think any of them thought, we'll branch off and become what the NWA is. I think the way the NWA did things wasn't the way these other promotions wanted to do business. I don't think Vince Sr. was wanting to have the WWWF and then 12 different promotions under the WWWF umbrella that would get together and decide who was going to be the World champion for the next 8 months or anything like that.

    But like I said it does in a way remind me of the NWA and it's just funny to me seeing the WWE kind of doing things they shit on over the last couple decades. They shit on WCW for relying on stars from the past....they broke away back in the 60's from the NWA because they didn't agree with their direction or how they were doing things. Here we are, kind of looking at it going, hmm, interesting how it comes back around like this....

  39. #39
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    Exactly, BVD...

    it dawned on me a while back that what Vince is doing right now is exactly what he did back in the the mid to late eighties: He is simply skimming of all the best talent out there that he can get to the weakening of his oppopsition...

    Since it worked so well before, there is no reason to think that in a few years,the weakened talent pools avalable in the other wrestling promotions will begin to fall behind the WWE product (s) available and then the nail gets driven into their coffins....

    Or so the plan goes.....

  40. #40
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    Exactly which is why I say New Japan will have won if they are still in business a few years down the line, they need to make use of every fan who prefers their kind of wrestling.

  41. #41
    Videoland Champion Badger's Avatar
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    Survived is more like it. WWE will just pool resources from elsewhere. Money talks.

  42. #42
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    IPW:UK and Lucha Forever have had to change their cards because WWE intervened with the guys they have under contract and they don't want them on Flo Slam. It'll be interesting to see how hard they come down on Evolve. WWN is Flo Slam's biggest deal, but all their guys have out clauses in their contracts when WWE comes calling.

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    We are going to hear what Omega is doing on the next WOR. He is vital to New Japan's efforts to gain some North American market share.

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    Because he's white?

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    He speaks English. I'd say that's pretty important.

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    He's far from the only one who does that.

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    And is a native, fluent English speaker.

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    Not having that hasn't stopped WWE from getting big in every other country.

    Honestly, New Japan angling for American acceptance is the last thing they should be doing. The world is a big place and the US is by far the most difficult to compete in. They'll never be on top there, and have to extend themselves terribly far just to compete. It's foolish.

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    I agree, but if they're going to have any chance having a North American, English-speaking guy as one of their top stars would help. If I were them and trying to promote in America I'd definitely be looking at Americans I could add to my roster. The big fish would be CM Punk when he finishes up with UFC.

    And the first thing WWE does when they get serious about expanding in a market is hire a bunch of guys from that country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Law View Post
    I agree, but if they're going to have any chance having a North American, English-speaking guy as one of their top stars would help. If I were them and trying to promote in America I'd definitely be looking at Americans I could add to my roster. The big fish would be CM Punk when he finishes up with UFC.

    And the first thing WWE does when they get serious about expanding in a market is hire a bunch of guys from that country.
    But they don't immediately make them top stars, because they understand that it would fuck with the identity of their product.

    I'm just super against the idea that the only way forward for the only functional Japanese wrestling promotion is to lay the whole thing at the feet of a bunch of mercenary white dudes so American fans will think they look for like WWE. It just smells like another Inokism gambit that will result in the product losing itself and dooming New Japan all over again.

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    What's the plan for this expansion? I could see them promoting a few shows in small venues in big wrestling cities and doing okay, although I'd think there would be huge legal costs to get work visas for all the guys (plus travel costs). But to try to run a lot of shows in markets other than wrestling hotbeds, I just don't see it. Doesn't New Japan World only have a few thousand American subscribers? They're not getting a ton of exposure from their TV show. To me their biggest promotional tool is probably Jim Ross's podcast and Twitter account.

    To me this feels like when WCW first tried to expand nationally in the 1980s. They ended up changing their product in a way that hurt them with their core fans, didn't attract enough new fans, took on a ton of extra costs, and probably would have gone out of business if Ted Turner hadn't swooped in to bail them out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cewsh View Post
    Because he's white?
    Omega is a bit of special case, he lives in Japan and knows the culture and language. He is the perfect bridge between New Japan and the huge US wrestling market.

    Also don't forgot he is leader of the Bullet Club, they are over in the US and the UK.
    Last edited by Bad Collin; January 26th, 2017 at 2:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cewsh View Post
    But they don't immediately make them top stars, because they understand that it would fuck with the identity of their product.

    I'm just super against the idea that the only way forward for the only functional Japanese wrestling promotion is to lay the whole thing at the feet of a bunch of mercenary white dudes so American fans will think they look for like WWE. It just smells like another Inokism gambit that will result in the product losing itself and dooming New Japan all over again.
    Omega is already a top star, he won the G1 and put on one of the greatest matches of all time a few weeks ago! He would be a main eventer regardless of whether they were expanding or not. This is why he is so important, I don't think any other 'white guy' could lead this expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Collin View Post
    Omega is already a top star, he won the G1 and put on one of the greatest matches of all time a few weeks ago! He would be a main eventer regardless of whether they were expanding or not. This is why he is so important, I don't think any other 'white guy' could lead this expansion.
    I agree. My issue is less with Omega and more with the idea of bringing in guys like Punk just because they're American stars.

    New Japan will not succeed if they make America their focus. And unfortunately the pressure is on because they're basically carrying the burden of the entire Japanese wrestling industry right now.

    Also, let's slow down with "one of the greatest matches of all time." It wasn't even the best Wrestle Kingdom Main event involving Okada.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Law View Post
    What's the plan for this expansion? I could see them promoting a few shows in small venues in big wrestling cities and doing okay, although I'd think there would be huge legal costs to get work visas for all the guys (plus travel costs). But to try to run a lot of shows in markets other than wrestling hotbeds, I just don't see it. Doesn't New Japan World only have a few thousand American subscribers? They're not getting a ton of exposure from their TV show. To me their biggest promotional tool is probably Jim Ross's podcast and Twitter account.

    To me this feels like when WCW first tried to expand nationally in the 1980s. They ended up changing their product in a way that hurt them with their core fans, didn't attract enough new fans, took on a ton of extra costs, and probably would have gone out of business if Ted Turner hadn't swooped in to bail them out.
    They get decent ratings for their AXS show too.

    Their plan is to run shows on the west coast and try and set up a US version of New Japan and get that on national television. It will all depend on how many people want to watch wrestling as opposed to sports entertainment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cewsh View Post
    I agree. My issue is less with Omega and more with the idea of bringing in guys like Punk just because they're American stars.

    New Japan will not succeed if they make America their focus. And unfortunately the pressure is on because they're basically carrying the burden of the entire Japanese wrestling industry right now.

    Also, let's slow down with "one of the greatest matches of all time." It wasn't even the best Wrestle Kingdom Main event involving Okada.
    I think you are in the minority on that last point but i'm happy to add 'in my opinion' to that sentence.

    I don't think it's a case of making the US their focus but more like diversifying their fanbase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Collin View Post
    They get decent ratings for their AXS show too.

    Their plan is to run shows on the west coast and try and set up a US version of New Japan and get that on national television. It will all depend on how many people want to watch wrestling as opposed to sports entertainment.
    No, that isn't accurate. The AXS ratings are perfectly fine for AXS, but are not an indicator of market share at all.

    And it absolutely is not as simple as just throwing a New Japan show on the air and trying to appeal to people who are sick of WWE. New Japan has no idea how to produce an American wrestling television show, has no idea how to deal with television producers and the challenger of the different providers. The world of tv in Japan is unbelievably different in every possible way. Then you have the incredible expense of producing such a program, balanced against the fact that, as a new production, they won't be getting quality advertising and won't be bankrolled by a network. Where is the money supposed to come from? This is not something that can sustain itself, and if they were going to try to capitalize on buzz to try to make it work, they missed their window of opportunity 2 years ago.

    This won't fucking work. It needs to stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Collin View Post
    I think you are in the minority on that last point but i'm happy to add 'in my opinion' to that sentence.

    I don't think it's a case of making the US their focus but more like diversifying their fanbase.
    They have already begun diversifying their fanbase in Europe, China, Taiwan, the Phillipines, etc. Focusing on the United States detracts from those efforts and stretches their thin base of stars even thinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cewsh View Post
    No, that isn't accurate. The AXS ratings are perfectly fine for AXS, but are not an indicator of market share at all.

    And it absolutely is not as simple as just throwing a New Japan show on the air and trying to appeal to people who are sick of WWE. New Japan has no idea how to produce an American wrestling television show, has no idea how to deal with television producers and the challenger of the different providers. The world of tv in Japan is unbelievably different in every possible way. Then you have the incredible expense of producing such a program, balanced against the fact that, as a new production, they won't be getting quality advertising and won't be bankrolled by a network. Where is the money supposed to come from? This is not something that can sustain itself, and if they were going to try to capitalize on buzz to try to make it work, they missed their window of opportunity 2 years ago.

    This won't fucking work. It needs to stop.
    No offence intended here Cewsh but you don't know how thoroughly they have planned this, you don't know how much cash they have to invest in this plan and you don't know what conversations they have been having with US TV companies. I highly doubt they would just get some air time and send some Japanese blokes over to make a TV show, they would use local knowledge. 2017 is a feeling out process anyway, let's see how the G1 shows in LA go before we shit all over their ambition.

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    China and India feel like more natural expansion targets than the US. I just don't see the US as a place where there's a demand for a ton more wrestling right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Collin View Post
    No offence intended here Cewsh but you don't know how thoroughly they have planned this, you don't know how much cash they have to invest in this plan and you don't know what conversations they have been having with US TV companies. I highly doubt they would just get some air time and send some Japanese blokes over to make a TV show, they would use local knowledge. 2017 is a feeling out process anyway, let's see how the G1 shows in LA go before we shit all over their ambition.
    I watched Inokism happen and I can see it happening again. Everything will go just well enough to make them overinvest and then it'll all die for nothing. Fuck that.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Law View Post
    China and India feel like more natural expansion targets than the US. I just don't see the US as a place where there's a demand for a ton more wrestling right now.
    Very much agree. There are difficulties with China, of course, but they've begun to make inroads there, and getting in front of that audience would make America irrelevant.

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    On another note, I'm really intrigued by WWE developing territories in the UK (eventually expanding throughout Europe), Japan, Mexico, and eventually who knows where else. Regional championships would be cool, I love the idea of the WWE Champion defending against the UK Champion on a Raw or Smackdown in the UK.

    Are they going to have the UK Champion defend his title on PROGRESS and some of the other UK promotions? Otherwise it seems like the title's just dormant until they start running their weekly show. It would be cool to have Tyler Bate enter the Rumble.

    Are we going to see them reassign talent from the main roster to these territories? I feel like if they're not going to push Cesaro beyond where he is now he might be of more use in the European territory. Biggest question would be Nakamura. If they don't want him in the main event on the main roster, he'd be a huge chip for expansion into Japan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cewsh View Post
    I watched Inokism happen and I can see it happening again. Everything will go just well enough to make them overinvest and then it'll all die for nothing. Fuck that.

    Very much agree. There are difficulties with China, of course, but they've begun to make inroads there, and getting in front of that audience would make America irrelevant.
    The world has changed since then. I don't think they can sit in Japan and wait for WWE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Collin View Post
    The world has changed since then. I don't think they can sit in Japan and wait for WWE.
    I didn't say it should sit and wait for anything. I'm saying that there is more in this world than the fucking United States and beating WWE is not a goal.

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    Beating them isn't, surviving them is. They would have to develop the market for wrestling in India and China whereas the US wrestling market is mature and ready for them to take a slice.

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    Isn't trying to dominate your homeland a more reasonable strategy for survival than trying to go into WWE's backyard? I would think the idea of portraying yourself as real Japanese wrestling fighting back against a bunch of dirty foreigners trying to take you over would work. And you have the possibility that the Japanese government would be willing to fuck with WWE to help protect a Japanese owned company.

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    I don't think limiting themselves to one market is the way to go. I don't know how protectionist the Japanese government is or how likely they are to care about professional wrestling, I would suggest that intervention would be very unlikely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Collin View Post
    Omega is a bit of special case, he lives in Japan and knows the culture and language. He is the perfect bridge between New Japan and the huge US wrestling market.

    Also don't forgot he is leader of the Bullet Club, they are over in the US and the UK.
    Omega's like the Worf of Wrestling. He's bridging the gap between American and Japanese Wrestling cultures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cewsh View Post
    No, that isn't accurate. The AXS ratings are perfectly fine for AXS, but are not an indicator of market share at all.

    And it absolutely is not as simple as just throwing a New Japan show on the air and trying to appeal to people who are sick of WWE. New Japan has no idea how to produce an American wrestling television show, has no idea how to deal with television producers and the challenger of the different providers. The world of tv in Japan is unbelievably different in every possible way. Then you have the incredible expense of producing such a program, balanced against the fact that, as a new production, they won't be getting quality advertising and won't be bankrolled by a network. Where is the money supposed to come from? This is not something that can sustain itself, and if they were going to try to capitalize on buzz to try to make it work, they missed their window of opportunity 2 years ago.

    This won't fucking work. It needs to stop.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Law View Post
    Isn't trying to dominate your homeland a more reasonable strategy for survival than trying to go into WWE's backyard? I would think the idea of portraying yourself as real Japanese wrestling fighting back against a bunch of dirty foreigners trying to take you over would work. And you have the possibility that the Japanese government would be willing to fuck with WWE to help protect a Japanese owned company.
    I agree that New Japan needs to focus less on America. It sounds like they want to go all in with a US promotion which sounds like such a bad idea. China should be a much bigger priority. Cut off WWE before they can get a foothold and it's practically next door. I think they should also focus on shoring up their base in Japan. It's a small thing, but I don't see a reason why they don't have a Women's Division. They need to get as many women under contract before WWE snatches them up. New Japan could then use Stardom, Sendai Girls, Ice Ribbon, etc. as developmental.

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    Looks like Kenny just told the Wrestling Observer that he will stay with NJPW.

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    He should fuck off back to All Japan and prove he's a REAL draw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BGMaverick View Post
    Looks like Kenny just told the Wrestling Observer that he will stay with NJPW.
    As everyone assumed from the start.

    Last edited by Sasori; January 26th, 2017 at 7:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BGMaverick View Post
    Looks like Kenny just told the Wrestling Observer that he will stay with NJPW.
    Great news.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasori View Post
    As everyone assumed from the start.

    Love how Kenny started this gimmick the day after the Dome and finished it the day before the next tour starts. That timing almost makes you think he had it planned out to keep himself in the spotlight but not take any heat away from NJPW. Almost like he is under contract for the next year and has been since last year.

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    I love the people who bought it. So cute, so innocent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Defrost View Post
    Love how Kenny started this gimmick the day after the Dome and finished it the day before the next tour starts. That timing almost makes you think he had it planned out to keep himself in the spotlight but not take any heat away from NJPW. Almost like he is under contract for the next year and has been since last year.
    Do you think big Dave was in on it or did Omega work him too.

    I hope it was all a work, there isn't enough of that at the moment.

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    Dave is far too naive when dealing with The Young Bucks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Collin View Post
    There were many wrestling wars in the early days, territory v territory, organisations breaking away from the NWA then getting drawn back in. Then Vince closed down the territorial system and sparked the first national wrestling war with WCW. We will never see anything like the Monday night wars again, WWE's grasp on the US is too tight and their control over talent too total. The next war is global and it is well under way.

    The Monday night wars were like the Second World War, total war with nothing but total annihilation of the enemy as the main goal. The new war is more like the Cold War, the battles will not be fought on prime time TV but using allies in wrestling venues around the world. Like the Cold War this is a battle of ideologies:

    The Sports Entertainers. Here character is key, the story is usually told using promos and skits and the in ring action is often a sideline to arguments, social media and posing. This is Vince's vision of wrestling and it has spread across the globe. The WWE is on TV in almost every country on earth, it is easy to translate and understand. Now they are attempting to localise the product. The UK tournament was just the start; the WWE will sign alliances with wrestling companies in every major market in the world. The allies get global recognition and loans of WWE talent, the WWE get access to every wrestler on the planet and a steady income from their local productions. WWE are already working with Progress, ICW, Evolve and OTT, who is next?

    The Wrestlers. Here wrestling is treated as a sport with fewer promos and skits. The stories are told in the ring and the expectation is that everyone who steps between the ropes is able to perform at a high level. This used to be very popular in the States, now Vince has taken over. New Japan lead the way now and are allied with Revolution Pro and ROH, can they bring workrate based wrestling back to the US or is that market gone? Defrost posted their CEO's recent comments, they are coming to the states in the next few years and WWE better watch out.

    This is not a war of annihilation, the global wrestling war is about winning hearts and minds across the world. The internet has opened up the world, anyone with broadband internet can pay $9.99 or 999 yen to join either side. Battle is already being waged in the US, Japan and the UK. As the middle classes in developing nations get bigger and bigger the war will move to India and China. As with the Cold War it is likely to be internal strife rather than enemy action that ends the conflict but like the Cold War it could go on for a long time.
    What do we think of this nearly five years on? Obviously no one could predict the perfect storm of The Elite being free agents and Tony Khan being ready with a load of cash and friends at TNT but, I think I was mostly right. Wrestling fans have been driven away from WWE and the result is the Sports Entertainment v Pro Wrestling confrontation we are seeing now.

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    You did a good job, BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Collin View Post
    What do we think of this nearly five years on? Obviously no one could predict the perfect storm of The Elite being free agents and Tony Khan being ready with a load of cash and friends at TNT but, I think I was mostly right. Wrestling fans have been driven away from WWE and the result is the Sports Entertainment v Pro Wrestling confrontation we are seeing now.
    I disagree. Pro wrestling fans like myself still watch WWE.

    You said there's going to be this global war, but I don't see it at all. You're talking about India and China, that's not a wrestling thing, that's an entertainment thing.

    Not to mention, it's been crystal clear for most of us (maybe not the young folk like Hero) but the WWE/WWF has always been about characters. Everyone else was about the wrestling-for the most part. Even when the nWo was soaking up Nitro, you still had better wrestling than Raw for a year or so.

    Anyone who signed with the WWE over the last 35 years didn't do it to have a Flair/Steamboat match every night they did it for the total package. Wrestling, traveling, exposure, money. That's why 90% of AEW's draws are talent that hit the top tier status on the WWE platform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I disagree. Pro wrestling fans like myself still watch WWE.

    You said there's going to be this global war, but I don't see it at all. You're talking about India and China, that's not a wrestling thing, that's an entertainment thing.

    Not to mention, it's been crystal clear for most of us (maybe not the young folk like Hero) but the WWE/WWF has always been about characters. Everyone else was about the wrestling-for the most part. Even when the nWo was soaking up Nitro, you still had better wrestling than Raw for a year or so.

    Anyone who signed with the WWE over the last 35 years didn't do it to have a Flair/Steamboat match every night they did it for the total package. Wrestling, traveling, exposure, money. That's why 90% of AEW's draws are talent that hit the top tier status on the WWE platform.
    I agree that India and China are targets for all entertainment but I don't see how that diminishes my point. AEW and WWE will be battling for market share with Disney etc as the middle classes of these countries get bigger. AEW just signed a deal to show Dynamite in India, they signed Satnum Singh, they started to work with Oriental Wrestling Entertainment in China before the pandemic.

    I agree that WWF/E has always been about characters but I think all successful wrestling promotions need good characters. For me the dividing line between Sports Entertainment and Pro Wrestling lies in how much of the entertainment is derived from the actual wrestling and how much is from other types of story telling. I can't watch WWE anymore because all the matches seem the same, everything is standardised and sterile wheras New Japan and AEW take more risks and have more variety. For Sports Entertainment to be good the characters need to be well formed, charismatic and in logical and interesting storylines and I don't think WWE have delivered this for a long time.

    I don't agree with your final point either for two reasons, Firstly, AEW have plenty of draws who have never worked for WWE (Kenny, Bucks, Darby, MJF) and secondly WWE have been the only huge promotion in the US for 20 years, where else were top wrestlers going to get over?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Collin View Post
    I agree that India and China are targets for all entertainment but I don't see how that diminishes my point. AEW and WWE will be battling for market share with Disney etc as the middle classes of these countries get bigger. AEW just signed a deal to show Dynamite in India, they signed Satnum Singh, they started to work with Oriental Wrestling Entertainment in China before the pandemic.

    I agree that WWF/E has always been about characters but I think all successful wrestling promotions need good characters. For me the dividing line between Sports Entertainment and Pro Wrestling lies in how much of the entertainment is derived from the actual wrestling and how much is from other types of story telling. I can't watch WWE anymore because all the matches seem the same, everything is standardised and sterile wheras New Japan and AEW take more risks and have more variety. For Sports Entertainment to be good the characters need to be well formed, charismatic and in logical and interesting storylines and I don't think WWE have delivered this for a long time.

    I don't agree with your final point either for two reasons, Firstly, AEW have plenty of draws who have never worked for WWE (Kenny, Bucks, Darby, MJF) and secondly WWE have been the only huge promotion in the US for 20 years, where else were top wrestlers going to get over?
    I'll work backwards because Id o agree with a lot of what your original post from 2017 said I just don't agree that it is somehow "right" because of the reasons you gave 4 years ago.

    You tell me Kenny Omega and the Young Bucks are over. You then ask me where in the last 20 years were people going to get over. MJF and Darby....They are over in the small wrestling bubble that exists today, but in terms of a GLOBAL WAR, I don't see their names being any more household than Baron Corbin or Apollo Crews. That in no way diminishes their value to the AEW roster because they're fucking incredible. And the same can be said about certain WWE talents who build their names elsewhere i.e. Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, Kevin Owens, Adam Cole, Finn Balor, Nakamura, etc.

    AEW is not on the same level of WWE, especially on the global scale. That's why you can't look at Kenny Omega, and say he's just as over as Brock Lesnar. Or even Roman Reigns, Seth Rollins, Lashley, Big E, the list goes on man.

    The stuff you're talking about saying AEW will be in the same boat as WWE competing against Disney and others, I don't see AEW there yet at all. Impact had deals in Europe, India, etc. That doesn't automatically put them on the same level just like it doesn't put WWE on the same level as Sony or Disney or even McDonalds. Do I buy this new merch or save it and take my family to dinner?

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    I get the contridiction in my point about the Elite and I get that AEW are not on the same level as WWE (and may never be outside of the wrestling fandom) but the answer to both points is that AEW is a start up and is growing. Omega and the Bucks were over to wrestling fans in 2019 but their popularity grows with the company and mixing it up with Mox, Danielson, Punk etc is accelerating that growth. I don't know how to respond to your statement that they're on the same level as Corbin or Crews because it's really hard to tell who is drawing what. If Corbin turned up on Dynamite would his segments rate as highly as Omega's? I doubt it but who knows?

    It's undeniable that WWE is still the most popular promotion in most of the world but AEW can outdraw them in wrestling hotbeds, can they spread that to more regions and compete in the regions we talked about? It will be exciting to see.

    What I really like about the current wrestling industry and my main point from the initial post is that so many companies are working together. We saw freaking MiSu battle Danielson on AEW this week! Kenta has been in the fight Mox, Ospreay will surely show up at some point. Mox and others are showing up at indies, using their visibility from TV to grow smaller promotions. It's great man. Watching AEW, GCW etc there is a sense that anything could happen which is one of the things which makes wrestling so exciting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Collin View Post
    What do we think of this nearly five years on? Obviously no one could predict the perfect storm of The Elite being free agents and Tony Khan being ready with a load of cash and friends at TNT but, I think I was mostly right. Wrestling fans have been driven away from WWE and the result is the Sports Entertainment v Pro Wrestling confrontation we are seeing now.
    Hell yeah, I remember this thread! You were spot on in saying WWE better start looking ahead because they've had their feet propped up for a long, long time. Now look at them. They've continued to waste the best roster they've ever had and failed to change their product into compelling television. Their production is tip top, but they still come off as cheap and tacky. The booking is horrendously lazy. I only keep small tabs on RAW and SD here and there and most times it's like witnessing an apocalyptic day care. Vince made his own giant island and most of it is a desert. Him dividing himself away from other promotions has been a bad choice in the long run.

    AEW has become my go to for a reason. They have things I'm not into, but for the most part they are pretty pretty close to exactly what I want out of pro wrestling. WWE just ain't for me anymore.

    Good work, BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Collin View Post
    I get the contridiction in my point about the Elite and I get that AEW are not on the same level as WWE (and may never be outside of the wrestling fandom) but the answer to both points is that AEW is a start up and is growing. Omega and the Bucks were over to wrestling fans in 2019 but their popularity grows with the company and mixing it up with Mox, Danielson, Punk etc is accelerating that growth. I don't know how to respond to your statement that they're on the same level as Corbin or Crews because it's really hard to tell who is drawing what. If Corbin turned up on Dynamite would his segments rate as highly as Omega's? I doubt it but who knows?

    It's undeniable that WWE is still the most popular promotion in most of the world but AEW can outdraw them in wrestling hotbeds, can they spread that to more regions and compete in the regions we talked about? It will be exciting to see.

    What I really like about the current wrestling industry and my main point from the initial post is that so many companies are working together. We saw freaking MiSu battle Danielson on AEW this week! Kenta has been in the fight Mox, Ospreay will surely show up at some point. Mox and others are showing up at indies, using their visibility from TV to grow smaller promotions. It's great man. Watching AEW, GCW etc there is a sense that anything could happen which is one of the things which makes wrestling so exciting.
    When you made that post many companies were already working together. New Japan and Ring of Honor. That's why Kenny Omega, The Bucks, Cody Rhodes, Adam Cole, etc are "draws" in AEW because of that relationship. I'd even go back a little and talk about AJ Styles really elevating New Japan's presence. TNA had working relationships with ROH, New Japan, Zero-One, etc. ROH worked with CZW, FIP, even WWE.

    WWE stopped really doing that stuff in the 90's. A little ECW or NWA here and there, but long gone were the days of Vince sending talent to Baba in Japan or whoever.

    Shout to Jeff Jarrett as well. There was a time where TNA had very limited working relationships outside the company but as time went on and they started losing viewers, talent, etc. Jeff pieced together Global Force.

    The problem is you're acting like nothing AEW is doing ever happened until now. Wrong. Impact, ROH, New Japan, everyone but the WWE lol. WWE don't really WORK with other companies. This is not new. It's what has appealed to fans of wrestling for decades now. I liked watching ROH when they'd do those joint shows with New Japan.

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