The 9th Annual Wilfred's Debates - Round 1 - virmicious vs. Judas Iscariot
ASYLUM INMATE CONFERENCE
Now, two new combatants will enter the circle of debate from which only one can proceed. And here is the topic that they will do battle over:
Welcome to the unfortunate near future. CM Punk and John Cena have just been in a horrific car accident and both lie dead in the wreckage. WWE needs to find someone to fill their shoes, and in a fucking hurry. In this hypothetical scenario, it is up to you to decide...
WHO IS THE BEST CHOICE TO TAKE OVER AS WWE'S TOP STAR NOW THAT CENA AND PUNK ARE GONE?
As a reminder, the rules are as follows. If you break a rule, there will be no excuses taken, so read them carefully.
Each debate will have a 72 hour time limit, a 350 word word limit. Videos and pictures are not only allowed, they're downright encouraged.
Also, to finally address the issue of the first one to go or the second having the advantage, a coin will be flipped by me in advance to determine who goes first or second. Completely fair odds for everyone.
If you have any questions about the question you are given, or about how to proceed, please direct them to me BEFORE you post about them, to avoid troubles.
You must wait your turn to post, meaning that you can't rattle off all three right from the get go, you have to post in turns with your opponent and, this is very fucking important, IF YOU GET THE COIN TOSS TO GO SECOND, YOUR INTRODUCTION POST CAN NOT BE A RESPONSE TO THE OTHER GUY'S INTRODUCTION POST.
You must wait until your second post to begin debating what the other person has said. This is the only way to make this fair, it is not up for debate, and I will penalize your asses. So be fucking told.
Your judges are former Wilfred's champions Badger and the_man_diva.
Now let's get down to business. The coin toss dictates that VIRMICIOUS will go first.
Upon thinking about the man who'd fill the main event slot, you definitely have to consider some facts. Would the WWE universe believe in this man? Would he be able to shield the main event picture from ever ominous low ratings? Basically, you'd have to find that one person who could providejustice from all ends of the spectrum.
That man of course is...............
TIME TO PLAY THE GAME
Hatez gonna hate, loverz gonna love, Triple H is gonna piss on you.
Without Cena and Punk the WWE would be in a tight spot. They obviously have not properly built any legitimate stars that can headline day in and day out, so we turn to the King of Kings to help "rebuild" the main event scene. No one else has the history, and especially the power in his hands to build new successors. Whether Trips is a babyface
or a heel
he always has the audience eating out of his hands.
Trips, in his new role as Executive VP of talent, has already helped spearhead many new changes in WWE. First and foremost, he's a major player in the push of the Shield, who have been, by far, one of the best things on WWE. Let's not forget to mention Antonio Cesaro, Damien Sandow and Langston have all come from his pushing of talent from NXT. Just imagine the man behind bringing up these people is also the man putting them over. Trips is a household name, not only among the WWE universe, but across most of the world. Factor in his legendary career from the attitude era to today and you have a man the audience believes in. Just imagine if he not only put this talent over behind the scenes, but inside the ring. In a year's span HHH could easily help make several new stars. While my objective was to say "who would take Cena/Punk's place" I instead propose the man who could temporarily take the place but rebuild it with several new stars.
Sorry, were you expecting someone else? Fine, I'll take that bait.
Allow the savior who will create other stars as well to introduce himself:
The current lead mouthpiece of the most successful stable since Evolution who has been chosen to partake in the only two real singles matches any member of The Shield has had.
Why has Ambrose been the one to stand front and center during promos, given the most speaking time and the first singles matches? Because he has a little something called IT. And WWE knows the future lay in his dementure.
In FCW he had a year long feud with WILLIAM REGAL that was better than any feud on RAW or SmackDown. His first feud in the big leagues was going to be against the legendary MICK FOLEY. Upon his debut with The Shield, he was subsequently praised by the man:
His first singles match was against THE UNDERTAKER, who had not faced off one on one on television in THREE YEARS. The Undertaker doesn't just work with anyone. He chooses who he faces and what he's a part of, and he chose Ambrose, who is again in singles competition against KANE.
The stars are aligned. He's a natural heel who has been paired with Rollins and Reigns to help get them over and get them better on the mic.
What draws people in more than a heel on top and the faces trying to and finally beating him? With the inevitable disbanding of The Shield due to Ambrose's increasing insanity, Rollins and Reigns would already be made as face stars, turning against their demented leader.
Wanna make a star out of an up-and-coming face midcarder? Have him feud with Ambrose.
Wanna make a SUPERSTAR out of an up-an-coming face midcarder? Have him feud with and defeat Ambrose for the belt. Anyone can get a rub from locking horns with Ambrose.
Want a sick heel promo? Check:
Want a funny, zany promo as a face? Check:
Want him to wear a fucking banana suit and jump off the ropes?
I'm going to say something you don't hear in most debates.
I agree with my opponent.
If I were to hand pick one singles star it would be Ambrose. Everything dumdum said is 100% spot on and I would venture most everyone on these boards would be happy with that.
Why? Because we post on a wrestling board. Who here wasn't a Punk fanboy before he wrestled his first WWE match? I hate the term, but the IWC would love Ambrose to be the new "it" guy because we've seen him long before the casual fan. Look at all of Judas' footage.
It's before Ambrose was in WWE. Sure it's good but just because you have seen his career doesn't mean everyone else has. Ambrose just isn't established enough yet to be the top guy.
The purpose of picking Trips is because the casual fan and IWC know him.
He is tried, true and tested a 1000x over. The reason we're in this debate is because we lost our two main stars and now we're stuck without someone with the name value to take over.
If we look at our history we can learn from our mistakes.
Therefore, Trips is the person who has to take over. He doesn't need to be there for long he only needs to be there to build the chosen few into stars.
I implore you to think of what could be.
DB is right on that cusp. Imagine a heel Trips vs DB. That last little push is all the Dazzler needs to cement himself.
Imagine DX vs the Shield breaking down to Trips vs Ambrose to settle the score. Ambrose could almost be made in the general fans eyes overnight.
To ensure we don't find ourselves in this spot again we have to build with what has been proven to work. An established star like Trips. His job behind the scenes is building the stars of tomorrow. Why not put it back on screen for one last run to help build the business he is taking over? It's just not Ambrose's time yet.
Think for a second about yourself as a youth growing into wrestling. Were you more excited about this?
Or were you more excited about this?
WWE has always been geared towards a younger audience. People seem to forget that even during the Attitude Era, the first hour of Monday Night Raw was rated PG. It is not geared towards smarks, and evolution and the next wave of stars is what keeps it alive.
Bringing something new and fresh to the table is not only something that IWC nerds clamor for, but it's the lifeblood of the industry. WCW experienced a short-lived boon while utilizing older, cast off WWF stars before the company collapsed. TNA currently labors under the weight of Hogan and a plethora of similar cast-offs.
How many of the 13 year olds the product is geared toward really remember Triple H in his heyday? How many of them even really know about DX? The thing that would usher in a new era, thereby saving the company from the loss of Punk and Cena, isn't bringing back an old man who's a part-timer these days. It's having another Austin 3:16 moment, and the person most capable of pulling that off on the mic is Dean Ambrose. If we look at our history, we can learn from our successes. And success is bred by new stars.
Give Ambrose the reigns (lol) and you have an immediate heel the crowd would hate and pay to see get his ass kicked.
First off, I must say you make some good points. However, the point I would like to make is 3/4ths of your last argument wasn't even about Dean Ambrose it was about magic moments that strike once in a lifetime. You put Stone Cold over very nicely though.
Originally Posted by Judas Iscariot
It's having another Austin 3:16 moment, and the person most capable of pulling that off on the mic is Dean Ambrose.
The key word here is capable. Sure he can do it, so can a few other people (including Triple H), but getting that Austin 3:16 moment to happen cannot be booked. It takes the stars to align and we can't just wait around for that to happen. Instead, we have to put an established star in place, one that can put over the next generation and make it mean something. Sure we can throw Ambrose in there but what happens if he doesn't take off on his own? A program with an established Triple H could take Ambrose to that next level. WWE is a hype machine and they have over a decade of footage to pump down the audiences throat of just who is the King of Kings and why he is the Cerebral Assassin and why there is no one who can beat him. Then, when the moment calls for it, our next main eventer pins Trips and suddenly they are the next big thing.
Originally Posted by Judas Iscariot
How many of the 13 year olds the product is geared toward really remember Triple H in his heyday?
This was recorded by a teenager less than a month ago. The crowd went "banana" for him. Triple H is universal and loved. Also, as I stated, the WWE hype machine can make him a bigger deal than he has ever been if needed...and it is needed. With the loss of Cena and Punk, the WWE has to create new stars. Throwing out untried talent into the WWE main event scene, no matter how good there are, in the ring or the mic, is not the smart way to go. It can honestly ruin careers more often than not. Putting them out there with a general of the ring that knows the business inside and out is the way to go. That general is Triple H.
Let's take a look at some fantastic moments where Triple H really put over younger talent:
Randy Orton at Wrestlemania 25 -- Oh wait, Triple H beat one of the hottest wrestlers in the company, and then went on to beat him and beat him and beat him again.
CM Punk during the Summer of Punk -- Oh wait, Triple H beat him. And beat him. And brought in Kevin fucking Nash for an awful angle. Is bringing in Kevin Nash the way that Triple H is going to put over younger. Oh, speaking of bringing back old men to supposedly get younger talent over...
The Spirit Squad -- Oh wait, Triple H and Shawn Michaels, a reformed DX, stuffed one of the more over stables in the company into a crate and sent them back to OVW. Kenny Dykstra was so destroyed by this he went onto a career as a nonsensical twitter poster, and it took Dolph Ziggler years to recover.
Want to see some live reaction to a younger performer who no one in the audience knows? Check out this video from a year ago:
What are two things you notice there? OK, fine, I'll tell you.
1) He generated genuine heel heat with that promo and got the crowd to hate him all within the span of a minute. That's not cheap heat, either. That's actual real heel heat.
2) There are no WHAT? chants. When Triple H brought back Kevin Nash, he was destroyed by the live crowd's what chants, and Kevin Nash is one of the biggest stars of all time. Here, Dean Ambrose has a crowd that doesn't know him so captivated that there are no chants. There are only the boos that a true heel can get.
Imagine what will be accomplished when he's pushed as the main heel of the company, the heel that everyone wants to see get his ass kicked. Seth Rollins would already be a mega face because of their inevitable feud. So would Roman Reigns.
That's three stars built right away, and it all revolves around Dean Ambrose.
And now it's your turn, readers. All you have to do is reply with your vote and a short explanation as to why you voted the way you did, and your voice will be heard. Remember that your votes count for 50% of the total judging for every tie, so your one vote could be the difference between your choice moving on to the next round or being left out in the cold. So don't wait to do it later, don't put it off to see if you need another vote, and if lots of people vote one way, don't be afraid to vote your way anyway. These guys appreciate the support even in a losing effort. Regardless, your voice matters. Let's give these guys their due.
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Badger and The-Man_Diva will send their votes to me via Private Message as usual, to keep them secret until the end. Voting will end on Tuesday, May 7th. Now have at it!
Both of you did a really good job. To me, Triple H was an obvious choice, and Dean Ambrose is someone I didn't see coming. I like Dean Ambrose, and your argument was a good one, but to me, you never really explained how he could be the top guy in WWE right now. You make good points on how he COULD be, but not how he could immediately step up to that role. Virmicious was clear and concise on how Triple H could immediately step-up and take over.
I voting for Virmicious. (Sorry Judas Still love ya bruh)
I agree with Mr Nobody. Triple H is the obvious choice. And I think Virm did a great job of explaining why he is. I respect Judas for going with Ambrose, There were plenty of other proven guys he could have picked. But I think by picking Ambrose Judas had the harder job on selling his case & boy did he had his work cut out for him. Virm did a great job of convincing me HHH was the guy to replace Punk & Cena and that no one else was as deserving as HHH
Plain and simple, the key words in the question is "NOW" (or "Near future"). Virm made all the right points about the start of the show putting over everyone else in the process. Ambrose still has to finish put himself up on the top of the heap before he can put over everyone else in the company, the WWE is still pushing Ambrose up the card. If the question had been who we were going to have carry the flag a couple of years down the road, then Judas's arguments would have more weight. But due to the question's wording, you gotta go with HHH over Ambrose, as it was just the wrong choice for Judas to make wtih this question.
It was a tough one as both guys went for opposite ends of the spectrum. Vrim with HHH the aged veteran who has done it all before but who has also been played to death so much that his last two matches has either ended in silence or with the crowd mocking him (and he was a face). On the otherside Judas, predictably, went for Ambrose who is still a relative novice in the main roster of WWE so it was an interesting debate of two polar opposites.
Personally I think someone who has just got established such as ADR, Ziggler or even Bryan would have been better choices but I decided I liked Judas better because like him I think if the Shield with Ambrose leading were pushed into the top spot then they would generate some real heat whereas HHH would be the same old same old - also if he was putting over the new talent then he wouldn't be number one guy.
Judas almost had me with his last post where he went over the junkyard of talent left in HHH’s wake but Virm’s points about needing an established star to anchor the roster were just too strong in my opinion. Without Cena and Punk the landscape is pretty barren and putting all of the eggs in a youngsters basket, even one as talented as Ambrose, doesn’t seem like the way to go for me.
Last edited by Matty C; May 7th, 2013 at 11:43 AM.
Judas did a great job in showcasing Ambrose's potential to be the man one day, but as the question states, someone is needed in a hurry and in my eyes virm did a great job in explaining why HHH would be the quick fix needed using not only his in-ring experience but pointing out how he has already started getting the new talent behind the scenes as well and plus he shot down Judas's argument that not many young kids today would remember HHH.
Judge Diva: Virmicious
Oh boy, I knew I was in for a treat the moment I saw them throwing so much shade at each other during the hype that I thought there was a solar eclipse. I was actually pretty surprised at Virm's pick because I wasn't even thinking of Trips. Once I saw Virm's pick compared to Judas', I immediately knew Virm was in for a real fight and I would have chosen Ambrose myself too ...
... However, Virm came out swinging and he hammered away the fact that Trips could instantly make new stars because he's tried and true, and people remember him. I was wondering why Judas seemed, I don't know, so chill through most of the debate and then realize he totally lured Virm into a blockbuster third post listing examples as to how Trips buried people like the Spirit Squad (poor Kenny) and Orton ... and then added salt to the wound by mentioning Kevin Nash ... ugh. Judas almost had me there, but Virm's earlier mention of putting all that weight on someone new instead of just using HHH to instantly put over guys on the cusp (like D-Bry) had me. I'd rather have HHH putting over guys who are [thisclose] to being the next Cena/Punk like ADR, D-Bry, Swagger, Ziggler instead of rushing (and fucking up) the rise of Ambrose, which, this is WWE ... chances are they would if they were forced to rush it.
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Originally Posted by Judas Iscariot
