No idea about Randy.
If we get shorter matches, that means we'll either get more of them, or more talking segments to make up for it.
No idea about Randy.
If we get shorter matches, that means we'll either get more of them, or more talking segments to make up for it.
To be fair, Tainted did ask the crowd if there had been anyone who fell from grace harder than Enzo and Cass. So 3pup answered with Hogan and Benoit....Whether Tainted's question was redundant or not, who knows.Originally Posted by hithit
You could maybe include Moolah in that conversation to an extent as well
How so?
Her dirty laundry coming about with exploitation and the fan backlash to a battle royal named in her honor after she took part in some memorable angles in the attitude era and is the oldest women's champion in WWE history.
Now they are pretty much scrubbing her from history
Rollins had an interesting exchange on twitter:
Imagine Stone Cold going on Twitter 20 years ago and writing shite like that.
Yeah, Seth hasn't come across too well there. Though he's entitled to his opinion, obviously. Meltzer was wading in too.
All good fun.
Meltzer can suck a lemon.
I see Meltzer on Twitter a lot and I've got to be honest, I do wonder if he's autistic. Not sure if I'm just being a dick or not though, to be honest.
I don't disagree with Seth, I think WWE does have the best wrestling on the planet, but of course Jeriatricho isn't going to think so cause he thinks he's a rock star.
You also don’t watch anything besides wwe.
if I only ever ate Italian food at Olive Garden, id think they were the best Italian food on the planet too.
Gosh Macaroni Grill over Olive Garden anyday.
I honestly get the sense Seth is just doing this for the sake of competition. Like, I think he truly believes people underrate the wrestling in WWE, but I think the comments against Ospreay were more in jest, like the type of shit-talking you'd do with your friends while farting around playing games. He might have come on a bit strong in that first tweet saying people are idiots. But let's not pretend like people try to act like WWE has no good wrestling. Hate the product, but the workers are going out there busting their asses to make some fucking lemonade.
I'm not the only one who feels this way as I've seen a ton of people respond with the same feelings I have...But why is it such a negative if a WWE guy says this stuff, but a non-WWE guy touts their 340 promotions they work for as the best and people don't say shit?
Look @ WWE's roster and find me one better top to bottom. The entire fucking roster, NXT included. They still have IMHO the best wrestler on the planet, AJ Styles. Seth Rollins is easily one of the top guys in the business. Those are just 2 out of many. If you put the top 20 guys in the WWE on a list, good luck finding a promotion with 20 guys that could match up. Fuck, most of these other promotions can't even say "This is a New Japan guy" because half the roster works for 100 other companies.
And this is not a knock on ROH, New Japan, etc. It's more of a reality check for some of you that would gladly eat up a non-WWE wrestler saying the exact same stuff.
You can crack on WWE's storytelling, good luck finding a promotion who even tells stories these days......But to try and knock the wrestling ability of guys like Daniel Bryan, AJ Styles, Ricochet, Samoa Joe, Rollins, Finn Balor, Cesaro, the list can go on forever of talent that delivers in the ring.
WWEs roster is stacked with talent, yes. Stars, no.
but what other wrestling promotion is stacked with Stars? Or even has more than a couple Stars?
Define "stars". Are we talking Hogan, Austin, Rock, Cena level?
And what does "star power" have to do with this conversation? This isn't about who's a crossover giant like The Rock. This is about who can get it done in the ring and I'm sorry but the WWE has the best overall roster on the planet.
The most popular wrestler in any non-WWE promotion is about the level of say Dolph Ziggler to the mainstream. Sure you can walk into Hot Topic and see a Cody Rhodes shirt, but how many actually know who the fuck he is?
There has definitely been a change in twitter policy recently.
I mean, damn.
https://twitter.com/WWEMaverick/stat...45906484019201
Just for clarity, I know it's a work, but still.
WWE doesn't have the best wrestling on the planet, but it's fully capable of it. Seth's just stirring the pot, but Offspray needs to learn how to sell first before claiming to be a great wrestler. Seth's being a tit, but at least he knows how to tell a story which is something most of the indie scene has forgotten how to do.
I'd missed Seth's Bank Account reply to Osprey.
Naturally likable lad, that Rollins.
Just the Elite.
Shame it's just a bit of fun on Twitter. There's money in Seth going down a descent of madness a la Macho Man, calling other wrestlers out for talking to Becky etc. Evolve it into super heel Rollins against super face Finn Balor for the Universal title at Wrestlemania, with a conflicted Becky trying to see the good in Rollins while trying not to sabotage her good friend Finn's career.
Hell, I'd have both Seth and Becky turn heel.
Face Balor vs. heel Rollins main eventing WM would be awesome, but nah... still have no faith in WWE.
I'd love to see Seth show this kind of passion on tv instead of hitting people with a steel chair and smirking all the time. He's not really about anything at the moment. People can debate whether Corbin is a good heel, but it's a nothing feud since the long term storyline is with Brock. This means we're probably going to get more filler opponents and Seth's run as champ will be forgettable.
I'm just saying...What WWE lacks in storyline intrigue they make up for in spades with wrestling. The thing is, the majority of us who watch the WWE are for the most part not watching just for the wrestling because that's not what the WWE was built on. In the 80's, they were not over because Piper and Hogan were putting on Flair-Steamboat level matches. In the 90's, Stone Cold and The Rock were not reviving the WWF on Bret Hart v. Shawn Michaels quality matches. But in both examples, they still had great wrestlers. If The Rock wanted to have a 5 star match, he could. He didn't need to go to Japan and face Jun Akiyama or Kenta Kobashi to achieve what he achieved.
But now, the fans who are left, most of us love WRESTLING. But no company out there has the schedule of the WWE and the expectations are not in the same league. I'd bet half the people who praise New Japan have probably never watched more than 1 show all the way through.
I dealt with the same shit in MMA with UFC v. Pride. Pride, because it wasn't as easy to access, was somehow this end all be all of martial arts. And in some aspects that was 100% true. But sometimes I'd be talking to people on line and they'd only know the highlights or the main fights that would be shown years later on Fox Sports with Bas Rutten and Jay Glazer. Could be the same thing here.
Dude that would be slick. especially your Macho Man point of reference.
And it started out great this time around. He dethrones Lesnar at Mania, jumps into a feud with AJ Styles that was fire, and now Corbin???? Talk about going from the peak to the valley lol.
The money was with Samoa Joe. Joe drops the US title to Rey and after Rollins v. Styles you move on to Joe v. Rollins for the Summer. Then you can go back to Lesnar and his boombox briefcase of gold. Then boom, Rollins silences Lesnar once and for all.
Corbin is a guy who wouldn't be so bad as a midcard heel. You want to throw him in a 4-way dance or Elimination Chamber for the World title, that's fine too.
oh yeah, ospreay cant claim to be a great wrestler yet cause vhs thinks he doesnt sell well enough.
Is Ospreay the one that had the match with Ricochet that everyone raved about except for Vader?
yeah.
i really dont like that match, and wasnt a fan of either guy. they've both changed significant since that match, with ospreay hitting another level lately. his being a great wrestler doesnt hinge on his selling being better.
I know they had to cut the feud with Styles short because of his injury, but he seems ready to go, so why not reignite that? They could even use Seth's recent tweets to spur on AJ. "Apparently, you've been shooting you mouth of recently about being better than everyone. Let's put that to the test."
Agreed, but they aren't making stars and haven't for a long time. That's why they keep going back to Lesnar or digging out attitude era guys for the Saudi shows.
The creative process seems broken and I would have more faith that AEW MIGHT be able to make stars due to the fact their guys seem to have a lot more freedom like guys did in WWE in the Attitude era.
Of course, in talent and numbers no doubt. I was just caveating what you were saying.
The talent on the roster is fantastic. But the star power isn't. The best balanced roster for stars/workers has to be WWE in early 2001 or 2002.
Right on.
It's just a totally different time in the world of professional wrestling. We're probably never going to get a natural born star like Stone Cold or Hulk Hogan or The Rock ever again. John Cena was a manufactured star. He was positioned and given the chances that others get denied and we know this from the mouths of talent like Batista and Chris Jericho and others that have to pretty much leave the company just for a small role in a t.v. show.
But even then, you have quite a few wrestlers on the roster today who imo are stars. They're just not as big as the rarities.
Wwe has the best roster they’ve ever had.
they just haven’t a fuckin clue how to use them
Too many cooks in the kitchen with creative?
I also wonder how much insight we truly have as fans as to how involved wrestlers are with what we see them do. Meaning, are they MORE involved than we're lead to believe? I can't imagine every wrestler is a fucking genius and knows what would draw so there has to be some turd ideas they're sailing
is there really an excuse as to why Balor isn't being used? or Nakamura? Or someone like Rusev? Why is Black doing promo after promo? It seems clear to me they are just stalling until they can come up with a feud or storyline for him. You would think SOMEONE has an idea for these guys.
Whose idea was it to give Mojo Rawley a new character and backstage promos building his character up(whatever it was that they chose not to explain) and then never use him? It's that kind of stuff that makes me believe the writing team is incompetent.
All truth.
I get trying things out and seeing what works, but something like Mojo, what the fuck was any of that about?
The thing is, there are so many talented wrestlers on the roster than a fucking guy like Mojo Rawley shouldn't even be around. He had a good thing for a minute with Zack Ryder as the Hype Bros and that's about it.
But when you have this laundry list of talent like Nakamura for example doing jack shit but getting eliminated by fucking Sin Cara in some jank Saudi pandering battle royal? Fuck that. Why not have Black v. Nakamura? How about Rusev come and choke that fucking dork out with a camel clutch? Black and his weak ass promos in a dark room.....whatever lol.
If he sold at all.
I watched his recent match at Dominion and he's still the same guy, getting hit w/ spinning piledrivers through the Earth's core and he's back up in 2 seconds like nothing every happened.
I blame the writing and creative team a lot less. I have heard enough podcast interviews and other comments out there that mostly lead to the same point. That they are writing for an audience of one, and that one basically just goes with what he wants to see. I am guessing that quite often, Creative is just as frustrated if not more so than us, because they are the ones trying to put things out there and it either never makes it or gets changed after the fact, before it makes it to tv.
If you liked the WCW Cruiserweight division and matches with like Juvi v. Lizmark Jr where they never do anything that looks like it hurts until they botch, that's a Will Ospreay match for you.
I kid. I think this young man is very talented. You have to be open minded as a wrestling fan to really appreciate his work.
Better than Seth Rollins or as good? That's tough to say. What I do know is this, put them against each other and it'd be a great fucking match.
But I mean, is Vince really the problem? He's been the final say since like 1982. I guess it's like when something bad is happening a country, it doesn't matter how many others are actually at fault, we just aim it at the President lol.
We don't know if what these former talents are saying they wanted to do would have been cool or would have worked. I remember listening to Jon Moxley's podcast interview with Jericho and not one time did he really offer any alternatives to what he did. You didn't really hear him go "Instead of this I wanted to do this" The only 2 times I remember were when he wanted to return and how he wanted to be totally different and be a heel. But how different? What does that even mean? Shitty wrestling gear like now with the generic 1996 barbed-wire on the shorts?
I've heard former "writers" say "Oh we were going to do this" and the idea was corny as fuck.
Or maybe wrestling just isn't that cool any more.
Can't it also be possible that Vince just doesn't have his finger on the pulse of what the audience is really also looking for anymore? Just because you are good at something for a while doesn't mean you will be until the end of your days.
I am not trying to complete excuse Creative, but this has to have blame go around more than just "writers suck".
he sold wonderfully in his match with shingo. being inconsistent with selling doesnt disqualify him from being a great wrestler.
maybe one day you'll interact with him for 2 minutes at some indie show and he'll become 'your boy' and you can be super happy for him anytime he gets mentioned on here.
Also, while Rollins is great, he's definitely had a few matches with inconsistent selling. Almost every wrestler does it nowadays. Especially if they came from the Indies.
I can buy someone getting through some stuff because odd adrenaline so I don't knock someone for that. It's if the way they sell doesn't make sense or looks awkward that I don't like
Vince hasn’t watched television since at least the 80s. He grew up making shows for syndication.
vince has no idea what people like on tv in 2019. Television seasons are shorter, writing is tight, acting is top notch. We are in the golden age of television right now and weekly wwe tv is still being written like reality tv at best.
Fans like NXT because stories get fleshed out and have a payoff. Lately NXT has been struggling with this though as Vince just decides to call up 3-5 people randomly and without a plan, causing NXT to shift titles and storylines for no good reason.
vince could put on a product like he has in previous years with his current roster and still be successful. that's not the issue. he's just out of it. senility, overwork, becoming forgetful/lacking ability to stay focused and stick to a plan, whatever. the problem with WWE is vince and it's simply that he's totally and utterly incompetent at booking a product right now.
Kinda does.
nooooope.
Have to agree with VHS on that point. Being shit at selling or not bothering to do so does indeed disqualify him from being a truly "great" wrestler. Rollins isn't great for that same reason.
Oh I was agreeing with you right up until you said that about Seth Rollins.
Sethual Chocolate is great. Not at selling maybe but he's an 11 everywhere else so it brings up his average.
Him dating Becky Lynch brings down his average. "I'm the man" "I'm going to kick your head in" "Meet me for lunch at two tirty"
They spend all that time having veterans train talent at the performance center, passing along their experience, and it's all for naught once they get to the main roster.
I hate Sheamus.
But I think I would really like him if he had come up in Japan instead of WWE.
God I'd like a (non-restricted) Sheamus against Goto, Ishii, Shibata, or Suzuki match.
Is it all for nothing though? What kind of knowledge do you think they're passing along? Just psychology inside the ring? There's more to working for the WWE than what moves you can do and how to sell properly. Most of these cats have zero experience working on television. They basically get told "Wrestle as long as you want" even if it makes the event 9 hours long and you're only on your 3rd match of the night lol.
lol. Well one has to think, Rowan was in Japan before WWE and he still fucking sucks.
He has pimp t-shirts though so he can't suck too much.
I agree that Rowan's tee-shirts have been impressive.
Just because Rowan can't go like AJ nor Rollins in the ring doesn't mean he sucks. The dude is a legit powerhouse who knows his role, and is executing it very well of late.
He is not a great talker and guess what - they don't have to have him talk.
What I wonder, though, is what happens when the DB face chants like "Please Recycle" catch on more and the WWE is forced to address it - will they have to make them a face team? Or will DB catch Rowan littering - maybe throwing a bottle away, or eating a steak, or something heinous like that. Will they have DB turn on Rowan?
DB and Rowan both deserve a lot of credit for helping get Otis/Tucker over. Otis is getting terrific crowd pops - he reminds me in a way of Amish Roadkill, but I think Otis is actually a much better wrestler.
lol. So he's not good in the ring. He's not good on the mic. So tell me what criteria we're allowed to use to determine someone who sucks? You're right, he doesn't have to be AJ Styles or Rollins. But this guy is on that Nathan Jones level of terrible. On top of that, dude is brittle.
Otis and Tucker are over? I'll be honest, they had their own thing going way before messing with Bryan and Rowan.
I keep calling them Dale and Tucker
There are huge differences between Rowan and Nathan Jones. First is that Rowan is being booked right. Second, Rowan can execute his power moves and make them look good. He legit looks like he can hurt someone by looking at them. Most importantly, Rowan knows how to sell someone else's offense, making them look good. Rowan is not a clumsy fool - he does not have to wiggle into position before taking their next move.
I think he's good in the ring, but not great. And when used properly, as he is now, he is a valuable part of the roster. Pairing him with DB will probably get us a longer career for DB, which is a very good thing.
A guy his size doesn't need to be doing the flippy flashy stuff that everyone half his size does.
I fucking hate Rowan and love Nathan Jones, but Rowan is better than Nathan Jones by a million miles.
Jim Cornette could build a promotion around Eric Rowan as a heel monster champion.
You couldn’t build a house around Nathan Jones if he was made of wood and standing still.
Rowan isn’t amazing, but he’s a far sight better than Nathan Jones.
Ok first off before everyone starts going into fucking detail about the "comparison" of Rowan to Jones. I'm just saying dude is terrible. Fine, a better comparison? Gene Snitsky=Rowan. Or maybe even Test=Rowan. These guys with that default big man CAW move list from "Just Bring It" where you had the big boot, the Meltdown, and maybe the big boot with your other leg lol.
And nowhere am I saying the guy needs to wrestle like AJ Styles lol. What the fuck? Do you not see the username, NASH DIESEL. Does that sound like a fan who is sitting here going "Man I wish these big guys wrestled like Owen Hart!" No lol.
Rowan is just another big dude. No real skill, no positives. Right now you could remove Rowan and it wouldn't make a shit of difference. He hasn't added anything other than the old school "bodyguard" type role. A role that many have done with little to no skill. I mean, were people crying when Jesus was released and Carlito had to go out on his own?
He's terrible. Literally anyone on the entire roster could fill his void. What's his gimmick? That he agrees with Daniel Bryan? Wow, that'd be hard to replace. There's not even that cool big man/small man dynamic because we all know Rowan's just in this spot because they have nothing else for him. Dude suddenly went from eating rabbits on the Wyatt compound to breeding them at the Danielson Compost?
And I'll be honest....This tag-team shit with Daniel Bryan is pointless. You go from World champion fighting Brock Lesnar to feuding with Heavy Machinery? Holy fuck somebody kill me. That's what your boy Rowan has done. In order to keep him relevant and justify his paycheck after being injured 90% of his WWE career, they once again sabotage the most over guy since John Cena in 2005......Thanks Rowan.
Maybe the WWE title didn't mean anything to him and he wanted to focus on the tag titles. If Samoa Joe can randomly change course why not Daniel Bryan? You're looking too deep into it.
I love Rowan. If you don't, you can eat a brick.
Tables, Ladders, and Chairs and Stairs is a fantastic match and validation for Rowan's career for that one match alone
i liked his theme music
Now this shit's getting too heated.
https://twitter.com/ChicoElLuchador/...958138881?s=20
@ChicoElLuchador
Hate to see two wrestlers as talented as @WWERollins and @WillOspreay feud over who is the second best compared to Chico
lol. I see what you did there smart ass.
I highly doubt Bryan was like, "Take me out of the World title picture and put him in the tag division with no tag-teams and the guy who gets injured more than Rey Misterio Jr." This was more like "Hey Bryan....Roman is coming to Smackdown and yeah we're gonna need you to drop the title. Then we're going to need you team up with that Rowan guy you're with and after we trade all the tag-teams to Raw, we'll see how over you really are with no tag-teams to wrestle"
I mean they have New Day so that's at least a positive but holy shit what a waste.
I expect Daniel Bryan to be in the title picture before long. They'll lose the title to some new tag team soon then Bryan will feud with Roman
Me too. It fit his character so well as the giant w/ a demeanor of a child. Rowan and Harper both had perfect themes when they were split up.
Pretty sure I read that this is actually the case.
I should have been more clear. I wasn't referring to wrestling. When people train at the performance center, they work on what kind of wrestler they want to be and on their characters. For example Dusty would ask them "If you're a heel, what kind of heel do you want to be? A cowardly heel? a wrestling heel? etc." He would also give them pointers on how they present themselves. Bayley started out coming to the ring with her side ponytail, but would undo it when she wrestled because she didn't think management would like a woman with messed up hair. Dusty noticed that, took her aside and said that it was her signature and that she should always wrestle with the ponytail. They even have classes on how to write promos, and will watch old tapes to study them. Then they get to the main roster, are handed a script, and told what kind of wrestler they are. Some even get repackaged like the Ascension and turned into a LOD parody. Ambrose said he thought the script thing was myth. Then he got called up and was handed a script and couldn't believe it.
I actually think Rowan is a pretty good talker. He's good at cryptic promos and his delivery is solid. He just doesn't need to talk when he's paired with someone like Bryan.
Last edited by Sasori; June 27th, 2019 at 1:28 PM.
Rowan's a guy that's being used as how he should be. He's a bodyguard. If anything, I wish he'd stayed as the scary, quiet dude... sitting in the corner... working on his rubiks cube... wearing his lamb mask. You don't want to be in his sights and he won't stop because he doesn't understand what that means. He could have been a modern day Kane in the sense where once he's involved, you should be freaked out.
Yeah he probably thought that was a smart move prior to losing at Mania. Then he came back and all the teams were gone.
Yeah but then you have to look at examples such as Elias who nobody fucking liked when he was in NXT. Neville....The guy had nothing special other than his finisher. Then he becomes a heel on the main roster, king of the cruiserweights, and he's one of the most in-demand wrestlers in the world.
So while you can talk about the script situation with Ambrose or Ascension being "repackaged", there's also talent that have benefited greatly once getting on the main roster.
And no offense to a guy like Ambrose, but the WWE has been pretty much scripted since the early early 2000's, hell I think people would be shocked if they paid closer attention to shoot interviews with how much the Attitude Era was scripted and not this idea of "bullet points". So if you signed with the WWE in 2010-2011 and you're shocked about scripts....That's on you lol.
That's a good point about Neville, but he's a unique case. Remember, he was almost given a Mickey Mouse gimmick when he came to the main roster. He lucked out just being a flippy guy with a cool finisher. Mark Henry was the one who went to bat for him since he could see how talented he was. He convinced Vince to let him coach Neville and help redevelop his character. I think the King of the Cruiserweights/Bastard is who he was always meant to be. Mark helped pull that out of him. Still, many wrestlers don't get that opportunity. They just meander around with no direction.
Mickey Mouse?
Mighty Mouse
Close enough, lol.
To be fair, Vince has wanted a Mighty Mouse for years. That was the original intent with Owen Hart as well.
Is he a unique case?
How about Becky Lynch? Never won the NXT championship, barely wrestled for it in fact, and now look @ her! First ever SD Women's champion, main evented WM. How about New Day? Woods and Big E are doing pretty swell.
I think if we broke it down you would find the talent that has come up from developmental are actually doing better than we are lead to believe. I mean, look @ Baron Corbin even, another guy who was just kind of there in NXT and while I'm not a fan and many people aren't, they've positioned him in a spot that I can't see I'd rather see Triple H dusting off the boots and going into lol.
https://nypost.com/2019/06/27/hardco...ium=SocialFlow
Anyone read this? Yikes.
Jesus.
I mean..... what exactly can you say to something like that? Chilling story.
And supposedly this isn't the first time he's told this story.
Wrestlers are fucking whacked out of their mind, especially that generation and the generations prior. They are so fucking wrapped up in the wrestling bubble. Think about it. He said he was going to do his fucking pose and then shoot someone and then himself.....So he's either talking stupid idiotic over the top typical wrestler psycho shit....Or he was legit going to do it.
And why even bring this up to that detail? You could have just left it at you were depressed, you blamed Paul E and wished him dead for it. Not this elaborate pro wrestler type approach lol.
And if you don't know what I mean by the over the top wrestler shit, listen to Brisco on that Monday Night Wars DVD. He's like, when talking about the victory over WCW, "We'll stomp on you until your guts and heart are pouring out of your throat and then we'll spit in your face if you try to mess with the WWF!"
Dreamer admitted that he's had so many concussions, he forgets to close the door/trunk of his car when it's pouring rain. Sounds like he's close to Benoit territory
Lost his marbles by getting hit with a dustbin lid every night in front of a couple hundred people. Stupid is as stupid does.
Wrestlers from back in the day are just super over the top. Imagine if Jon Moxley went on TIJ and was like "Yeah man I was about to walk through the crowd and jump the rail and shoot Vince in the head then do the Shield pose and shoot myself!"
I don't know, did Dreamer think he was cool telling this story? Maybe it's a good thing kayfabe has almost completely died.
And this was the first time I heard Dreamer was going to debut at this event during that match. Doesn't really make sense.
feel like it's made up
He is extreme.
He was depressed cause ECW ended, and was mad at Heyman, but he wasn't depressed being on RAW drinking the Undertaker's tobacco spit?
He was getting paid to do that
I wonder what it tasted like.
the sniper story has been around for years.
why come out and say this other story now? things don't add up.
That triple threat ladder match at WM X-7 was great. Glad Dreamer wasn't a part of it.
I hadn't seen it in years, and was glad that it was linked in the article. Out of all the wrestlers who appeared, who wouldda thunk back then that both Rhyno and Matt would still be going...
I was about to post about that Dreamer story. Shit is crazy. Its scary to think about. Also heres a video of Big Cass and the shit he was going thru.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qq_kaPSGgU
Fair play to Dreamer, opening up about dark thoughts in an attempt to help others.
It always makes me laugh how much clutchy pearls people get over shit like this.
Ospreay sells like a champ. He should be brought in to work Lesnar to a pulp before it's too late.
Rollins should keep his eye on Will Ospreay; that kid's got a ton of heart. At least, that's what the story is....
Skip to the 4:50 mark if you want the wrestling-related part of the video. T he whole thing is fucking fire but the last 2-3 minutes are greatness.
What in the fuck does that mean?
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