This thread is here so we can discuss who we think fighters should face next. In order to prevent this thread from being cluttered, I think we should focus solely on fighters who have just had a fight.
Frank Mir - Randy Couture
Frank has talked openly about potentially dropping to 205. I think it's important that he fight someone who is a capable heavyweight, but has also spent time at 205. Both are strong names and would make an interesting matchup.
Mirko Cro Cop - Big Nog
Mirko is winding down his career and he says that he wants to fight 2 more times next year to finish out his contract. He should limit himself to non-contenders and big name fights. There is no reason that he should waste his time with the Ben Rothwell's and Pat Barry's of the world. Big Nog needs a fight and this Pride rematch could be both nostalgic and a classic.
Ryan Bader - Forrest Griffin
Bader vs Jones is being called for but I think it's a bad idea. Either way, that fight would kill the momentum of a rising star. Bader vs Griffin could be interesting no matter where it ends up because neither man is opposed to standing and trading, and Forrest has an underrated ground game to combat Bader's wrestling.
Lil Nog - Jon Jones
Both men are fantastic strikers and ranked in the highly-competitive and very stacked light-heavyweight division. Lil Nog has just recently fallen out of the Top 10 and would be a huge feather in Jones' cap if he can defeat him.
Chris Lytle - Diego Sanchez
Lytle wants to fight opponents who will stand and bang in an attempt to put on incredible fights. Regardless of the outcome of his upcoming fight at UFC 121, I think Diego Sanchez is a fantastic option. I would have said Thiago Alves, but with a fight at UFC 124, that would likely keep Lytle on the shelf for 6 months. In the event that Carlos Condit beats Dan Hardy, Condit would become my first choice.
Matt Serra - Mike Swick
This match was rumored for earlier this year but fell through. Both guys are well known and well liked. Both Top 20 welterweights, Swick has a 9 inch reach advantage and could prove to be problematic for the shorter Serra.
Sean Sherk - Kenny Florian
Florian would have the opportunity to avenge a loss while facing off against a former champion. Sherk is on his comeback trail in hopes of getting to a title shot. A win over Florian would put him only one more win away from getting that shot. In the event that Gray Maynard wins the title this year, Sherk is one of few lightweights that Maynard couldn't outwrestle for 15 minutes.
Evan Dunham - Charles Oliveira
These two are both fantastic strikers with equally impressive jitz. Both men could be champions in the next 2 or 3 years.
Melvin Guillard - Nate Diaz
Diaz has expressed interest in coming back down to lightweight. Guillard has a good streak now that he is under Greg Jackson. I'm very interested to see if Melvin can continue to keep his composure and stick to the gameplan while Nate is mocking him at arms length.
Jeremy Stephens - Kurt Pellegrino
Kurt just got handled and Stephens is on his way back up. This should be a win for Kurt, but Stephens could be a surprising W here.
Matt Mitrione - Pat Barry
I think that Mitrione needs to fight a solid striker if he is going to evolve. He needs to be smart enough to pick his shots, and standing with a kickboxer the caliber of Barry should give him the loss he needs to learn from.
Joey Beltran - Mike Russow
A fight that is winnable for either man. Russow has a little bit of momentum and Beltran should be fighting for a job at this point.
C.B. Dollaway - Dan Miller
Both men are coming off of wins against non-contenders. Miller has a black belt in BJJ to combat Dollaway's wrestling.
Joe Doerksen - Mario Miranda
Submission guys facing off to see who keeps their job.
Last edited by PMBR; September 28th, 2010 at 1:51 PM.
I've never heard Mir talk about dropping to 205. He weighed 252 against Cro Cop FFS.
Mitrione won't fight Barry cuz they're training partners.
Diaz has already beaten Guillard and should be staying at 170 if he has half a brain.
Sanchez is fighting Paulo Thiago at UFC 121.
Sherk/Florian, Dollaway/Miller, Dunham/Oliveria are the only ones I'd really wanna see to be honest.. maybe Cro Cop / Nog. Stephens/Pellegrino isn't too bad.
I'd rather see Forrest/Lil Nog and Jones/Bader .. I think Swick would pick Serra apart like Lytle did.
Last edited by Dubya; September 28th, 2010 at 1:58 PM.
My suggestions for the winner, talked with dub about this with MSN over the weekend actually:
Mir - winner of Schaub/Gonzaga
Bader - Jon Jones
Lytle - Nate Diaz or winner of Condit/Hardy
Sherk - Jim Miller
Guillard - a few options, GOMI, Sam Stout although he may be a drop for Guillard right now, Pellegrino, someone like that.
Originally Posted by dubya
I've never heard Mir talk about dropping to 205. He weighed 252 against Cro Cop FFS.
He's been talking a lot about it, he said recently he would have to take the time off to do it properly so if he got hurt and had some time off then he'd return as a 205er. Can't see it happening though.
Diaz has already beaten Guillard and should be staying at 170 if he has half a brain.
Diaz beat Guillard before Melvin started training with Greg Jackson. I think it's a good matchup. I think it's dumb for Nate to drop back down, but that's apparently what he wants to do.
Sanchez is fighting Paulo Thiago at UFC 121.
Read what is in the spoiler tags fella. I said that Diego is a great option regardless of that outcome. Plus that fight is only a month away and they'd likely be ready to fight again around the same time.
I don't agree. I think unless Sanchez wins that fight with Thiago, its a bit of a step back for Lytle. That will be 3 losses in a row for Sanchez. Lytle has won 4 in a row.. they shouldn't be meeting like that. I'd be all for giving Lytle the winner of that fight, however. Whomever it may be.
I just don't wanna see Diaz go back to 155, to be honest. I think he's a brain-dead moron if he does.
Torn had the idea of doing Diaz/Lytle now and I liked that idea.
Last edited by Dubya; September 28th, 2010 at 2:09 PM.
I think you have to give Lytle a really good guy on a roll. I think I even suggested Fitch to dub, but that may be too much. But who else is Fitch gonna fight if he doesn't get the title shot?
Yeah, Sanchez has a name but right now he's lost 2 in a row and if he loses to Paulo Thiago.. that's 3 in a row.. and I think he will lose to Paulo Thiago.
Frank Mir vs. Roy Nelson
Randy Couture vs. Lil' Nog
Ryan Bader vs. Jon Jones
Forrest Griffin vs. Rich Franklin (return times are pretty close)
Chris Lytle vs. Nate Diaz, Jon Fitch, or Mike Swick.. or even the Hardy/Condit winner.
Go ahead and give Guillard the Gomi fight if he really wants it.
Give Mitrione that guy that beat Mark Hunt.
Also, Lytle won't fight Fitch. He said that he isn't interested in fighting contenders if it means fighting guys who aren't interested in putting on a good fight. I got the impression that he was directly talking about Jon Fitch.
I dunno, I thought Fitch put on a good fight with Alves. Fitch isn't lay and prey to me .. he really beats the shit outta people. I mean, he may not finish a lot .. but look at his face and then the other guys face .. he's definitely working.
Also, Lytle won't fight Fitch. He said that he isn't interested in fighting contenders if it means fighting guys who aren't interested in putting on a good fight. I got the impression that he was directly talking about Jon Fitch.
If the UFC want him to fight Jon Fitch, he'll fight Jon Fitch.
Michael Bisping .. to me, Rousimar Palhares makes for a quick setup .. he could get the winner/loser of Marquardt/Okami or the winner of Maia/Grove. Chael Sonnen if the timing works out.
Yoshihiro Akiyama .. ???
Carlos Condit .. Chris Lytle or Jon Fitch. Dana seems to want Shields to get the title shot if he beats Kampmann and Fitch doesn't have a lot of choices for fresh opponents these days. Condit is also GREAT off his back, where Fitch puts all his opponents. .. Fitch is also a much bigger WW than Condit though .. so was Hardy though so who knows.
Dan Hardy .. Chris Lytle or Mike Pyle maybe
Mike Pyle .. Rory MacDonald, Chris Lytle, Carlos Condit, Claude Patrick?
I'd like to see Travis Browne vs. Matt Mitrione. I think it would be a nice slugfest. Kongo can have the Gonzaga/Schaub winner/loser.
Condit/Lytle seems like a fit for me, but also .. who does Fitch fight next if Shields wins? Kampmann? He just really doesn't have that many options for a fresh opponent. He's cleaned out the division more than the champ has, to be honest. Lol.
Lytle/Hardy would be badass too if they made Condit/Fitch.
I bet anything that some combo of those fights happen.
Hardy could also get the winner of Diego/Paulo .. so could Carlos I guess too .. UFC has a really deep WW division.
I think Lytle would definitely be a step back for Condit. Don't get me wrong, Lytle just beat a former champion, but Serra isn't ranked, wasn't ranked before his title victory, and Condit just defeated the last guy to fight GSP-who btw went 5 rounds and looked better than most who last that long against GSP. Condit for sure needs a top 3-4 WW in his next fight.
The best bet would be someone like Jon Fitch, I was also thinking the loser of Shields/Kampmann since that could possibly be a #1 contender bout. Lytle is awesome, but I just think that Condit knocking out Dan Hardy says A LOT. I mean, if Roy Nelson knocks out Shane Carwin I wouldn't have Roy Nelson fight Pat Barry.
I honestly think that Fitch/Condit makes the most sense. Dana obviously has a hard-on to do GSP/Shields and if Shields beats Kampmann, I'm sure he will. That leaves Condit and Fitch (2 contendors that haven't fought each other) without fights.
I say Fitch/Condit and Hardy/Lytle is the way to go.
I think its a good match-up. They both have good hands and good ground game. Fitch likes to put people on their back and Condit is really quite good from his back. He's submitted some people from his back. Fitch probably has a good 5 (or more) lbs on Condit on fight night.. im sure Hardy had a few on him last night though.
Its an interesting match-up and I wouldn't be shocked to see it happen.
Obviously, Jake Shields is next. Dana confirmed that Shields will be next, but did say that after that .. he sees nothing stopping GSP from moving up to 185. It'd be a good bet that GSP/Shields will be in April in Toronto too
Josh Koscheck
Really depends on the timetable of his eye .. a rematch with Thiago Alves would be interesting. Dan Hardy maybe?
Stefan Struve
I liked PMBR's suggestion of Frank Mir .. if not, maybe Brendan Schaub? Cheick Kongo? Travis Browne? Mirko Cro Cop?
Sean McCorkle
Bellator?
Mac Danzig
For me, its the rematch with Matt Wiman.
Joe Stevenson
I don't know .. you could do Tyson Griffin, but then you pretty much know that the loser is getting their walking papers.. still makes for an interesting fight since they have such similiar styles. .. Mark Bocek? Nik Lentz maybe?
Thiago Alves
He wants Shields, but that won't happen .. I'd say either Koscheck or Dan Hardy. Maybe Mike Swick if he wins his fight next month? Matt Serra?
Jim Miller
Miller definitely deserves a big fight next. Maybe Kenny Florian, depending on when he returns?
Charles Oliveira
I still say he should drop to 145, now that its in the UFC .. other than that, you could match him up with a lot of people .. Mac Danzig? Joe Lauzon?
Mark Bocek
He wants a big name .. but lets be honest .. he hasn't really earned a big name yet. For me .. Joe Stevenson makes sense .. Nik Lentz .. Tyson Griffin .. Joe Lauzon
Dustin Hazelett
If he keeps his job, there's a lot of people .. Joe Lauzon, Tyson Griffin, Nik Lentz, Joe Stevenson .. same guys .. Jonathon Brookins maybe?
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With Hardy's stigma of being this awesome KO artist finally being put to rest and his mouth not really backing up shit I'd love to see these 2 bitches fight each other. I could see Kos looking @ Hardy's last fight thinking Hardy's stand up was mad overrated and Hardy just levels dude into retirement. Wishful thinking considering if GSP couldn't finish Kos it'd be surprising if Hardy could....but that Rory Markham fight still sticks in my head and I'd love to see Kos get the same.
I hate both of them, but I'd love to see the fight.
What I do like is that there is definitely some time to figure out an opponent for the winner of GSP/Shields if SHIELDS is the winner. If Jon Fitch beats BJ Penn, which is likely, he could make solid enough claims beating Paulo Thiago, Thiago Alves, and BJ Penn on his road to the title.
Now, the big question is, will GSP and Anderson really fight? We're looking at possibly Fall-Winter 2011 for this fight and there's a lot that can happen. Will this turn into Iceman/Wanderlai where they fight 5 years after anyone cares? Let's hope That fight was the SHIT!
Dominick Cruz: all signs point to Urijah Faber .. possibly even a TUF coaching stint to go with it. I'd go for that.
Anthony Pettis: obviously .. the winner of Edgar / Maynard. I could see this being a TUF coach match-up too.. and I'd also go for it.
Ben Henderson: I'd give him a good first fight. I think Florian's gonna be out for a minute or I'd say him .. maybe the loser of Edgar / Maynard.. Joe Lauzon.. Jim Miller.. Mark Bocek..
Scott Jorgensen: Joseph Benavidez? Miguel Torres..?
Donald Cerrone: Cole Miller's getting ready to fight Matt Wiman.. provided he wins that fight, I'd say go with him .. if he loses, I'd go in a different direction for Cerrone. Maybe Bocek or Lauzon..
Chris Horodecki: a drop to FW and a fight with Korean Zombie or Leonard Garcia
I'd also like to see Shane Roller come in and get a good fight too. I think Roller, Henderson, Pettis, and Cerrone have the most potential to do well in the UFC.
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Stann: Give him Nate Marquardt. Sure he wants Wanderlei, but beating a former UFC title contender will give him a huge bump in the rankings and it leaves room for...
Leben: Give him Wanderlei. Neither guy is anywhere near title contention these days and it's a bout that would drives fans mental. Not much explanation needed.
Thiago: Give him the loser of Bader/Jones. Both of those guys are slightly above Thiago on the ladder right now. Whoever loses will need a strong opponent in their next fight, while the winner should be fighting for #1 contendership. Stylistically, he matches up well with either of them.
Vera: Give him walking papers.
Stun Gun: Give him Josh Koscheck. Nate Diaz was sitting on the very bottom of the UFC Welterweight Top 10. Most other players on that list have a full dance card (Condit/Lytle, Fitch/Penn, GSP/Shields, Kampmann has Sanchez and Ellenberger has Rocha). The other Top 10 guys are Josh Koscheck and Thiago Alves. Kim needs someone with good grappling, but who is dangerous striking - Koscheck.
Nate Diaz: (if he stays 170) - Give him Thiago Alves. Both men are best noted for their striking. Diaz has a great ground game if it goes there, and Thiago hasn't been submitted in over 5 years. Nate believes heavily in his boxing and Thiago is simply dangerous.
Nate Diaz: (if he returns to 155) - Give him Charles Oliveira. Both men are well rounded, with effective, unorthodox striking and strong BJJ credentials. Nate says he wants to fight guys who are overrated and considering that Oliveira has been compared to Anderson Silva in the striking game and also compared to BJ Penn when it comes to submission, I'd say he falls into this category.
Guida: Give him Anthony Pettis. Guida wants to work his way to a title shot this year and with a 3 fight win streak, he is on his way. He will need to fight Top 10 lightweights in order to achieve this goal. Pettis will gladly stand with Clay and he has great takedown and submission defense. Pettis needs a fight while waiting for his title shot and Clay is a good gatekeeper.
Gomi: Give him Jeremy Stephens
Stephens: Give him Takanori Gomi
These are two guys who love to stand and box. They are roughly at the same place in the rankings and are likely to put on an entertaining show...something that is good for both of their careers. If Gomi loses his next one, he is likely on his way out the door.
PRELIMS
Marcus Davis: Give him a retirement party. Beginning in 2006, Marcus won 13 of his next 14 fights, only losing a decision to Mike Swick. Since then, he has been used as a stepping stone for Dan Hardy, brutally KO'd by Ben Saunders and Jeremy Stephens and choked into a coma by Nate Diaz.
Poirier/Nunes: Give them each other. The surprising pair of upsets in the featherweight division really shook things up. Hopeful contenders Mike Brown and Josh Grispi got sent spiraling down the rankings after UFC 125 and the underdogs should now face each other to see who deserves a spot in the top 10.
Grispi: Give him Raphael Assuncao. Both men have had ups and downs recently and Grispi just choked majorly on the big stage. Assuncao is still rebounding from the back to back losses he suffered in the first half of last year. Both men have good submission games, and while Grispi has stopped several fights by strikes, Assuncao has never lost due to them.
Brown: Give him Nam Phan. Brown is now 2-3 in his last 5 bouts. His days as an elite featherweight are going to be questioned very soon. After the Garcia decision, all eyes will be on Nam in his next bout, so putting him against a former champion is a smart move. Both guys have strong striking credentials and Phan has never given up a submission in 24 professional bouts.
Brad Tavares: Give him Tim Credeur. Tavares is in the big leagues now, and the fact that he is undefeated puts a target on his back. Let him face a well-rounded veteran with loads of experience. Credeur is a good test for anyone and after spending 2010 on the shelf due to injuries, Tavares is a good comeback test for him.
Phil Baroni: Give him walking papers Daniel Roberts: Give him Claude Patrick. They have similar records (12-1 vs 13-1) and they both have a love of submissions. Both guys have a small win streak going for them and they would each love to keep that going.
Greg Soto: Give him TJ Grant. Loser leaves the UFC fight to see who wants it more. Soto is 1-2 in the company and Grant has had 6 fights with the UFC but has still yet to put 2 consecutive wins together.
Jacob Volkmann: Give him Joe Lauzon. Volkmann's submission game is strong and he is capable of defending himself against grinders. Joe Lauzon has a great submission game and is capable of handling himself in the standup. Lauzon has to take a step down in competition after the losses to Stout and Sotiropoulos and with a 3 fight win streak, Volkmann has earned the step up in competition.
Antonio McKee: Give him Terry Etim. McKee has done himself a lot of good by running his mouth so well. Despite the fact that he has never had an aired fight, we all know who he is an what his fighting style is like. Terry Etim is a young kid with a lot of fight experience and a very effective submission game. Terry has been off since Abu Dhabi and needs to work his way back up the ladder.
Forgot about this thread! here's what I posted in the UFC 125 thread:
Edgar-Maynard 3: For obvious reasons, and any later than April would be too long of a wait. Especially for Pettis.
Stann: I like my idea of Bisping/Rivera v. Stann. It would definitely give us a different top 5 in the MW division, especially if Jorge beats both Bisping and Stann back to back.
Leben: The loser of Bisping/Rivera, or a chance @ Wanderlai? Hmm. Hard to choose. I might go with even Vitor if Vitor loses to Anderson.
Thiago Silva: The winner of Jones/Bader.
Vera: Fuck it, I tried to put on a mask and pretend Vera moving back to HW might be good for him but I think I'm just going to have to deal with the fact that he probably won't be coming back after nose surgery.
Stun Gun: Not GSP. He'll probably sit out and fight the winner of Diego/Kampmann which wouldn't be too bad for him.
Diaz: Tough call, I don't see this loss as a step back, it was like a poor man's Nick Diaz/Karo if you think about it. Nate I could see fighting someone you wouldn't expect, like Matt Brown.
Guida: Beating Gomi was huge. A fight with submission ace Jim Miller should be a no-brainer.
Gomi: Honestly I think we'll see him throw down with a big name like Sean Sherk. 2 legends of the LW division head to head would make a nice fight. So would Guida/Sherk....
Why would Thiago Alves fight a guy who just lost when 2 fights ago he was fighting for a title? Thiago will get a higher ranked fighter than Nate, possibly a rematch with Koscheck.
I think we agreed on Leben possibly fighting Wanderlai next, I also through out Vitor's name to avoid the possible rematch against someone he fought 5 years ago and Bisping (keep in mind rematches between fighters have happened within a year or 2 of each other in the past for no reason but necessity).
Gomi losing his last fight still doesn't take away that he's still a legend and people would pay to see dream fights-which Sherk v. Gomi is. 2 of the most respected LW's in the world going at it=fan's win, promoter's win. Sherk's time in the game is dwindling, get him a big name fight before he gets injured again and doesn't fight til he's 39.
I also through out Guida v. Sherk, so the wait for Miller/Kamal might not be a problem if he's put up against someone like Sherk instead.
I disagree, Rampage should get the winner of Franklin/Griffin. Thiago getting the winner of Bader/Bones makes the most sense to me.
That's exactly how I look @ it. Rampage either gets to avenge a controversial decision loss to Griffin or a dream fight with Rich. Jones/Bader need bigger wins on their resume. Jones' biggest wins are against Vera, Hamill, and Vlad, none of them top 10. Bader had a somewhat weak fight with both Jardine and Lil Nog, names-but the performance wasn't anything to brag about. A win for either IMO just secures them a top 10 slot and doesn't really put them in title contention.
Why would Thiago Alves fight a guy who just lost when 2 fights ago he was fighting for a title?
First off... Thiagos title fight was 3 fights ago...not two.
Second... Thiago is 1-2 in his last 3 fights.
Thirdly... His only win was a decision against an unranked fighter coming off of a loss.
Rankings are based on performance, and Thiago has not performed up to the level that people make him out to be on.
Thiago will get a higher ranked fighter than Nate, possibly a rematch with Koscheck.
No he won't. I'll put an avatar bet on it that Thiago Alves gets someone outside of the top 10. He got rinsed in 2 back-to-back fights. Thiago still hasn't earned Dana's trust that he can consistently make weight. That's why they gave him Jon Howard last time.
Gomi losing his last fight still doesn't take away that he's still a legend and people would pay to see dream fights-which Sherk v. Gomi is. 2 of the most respected LW's in the world going at it=fan's win, promoter's win. Sherk's time in the game is dwindling, get him a big name fight before he gets injured again and doesn't fight til he's 39.
The "who cares if he lost, it's still a dream fight" thing would have more credibility if they had tried that with Cro Cop/Couture. They easily could have given us that fight as the main event at UFC 105 in the UK.
Cro Cop the fight with Randy Couture at UFC 105.
Cro Cop could have faught there instead of UFC 103.
Couture obviously was ready for 105.
Cro Cop is a bigger draw in Europe than Vera
Instead, Cro Cop got handed Junior dos Santos, a guy who was still an up and comer with potential at the time.
The UFC doesn't book those kinds of fights unless things fall into place naturally. Gomi going 1-2 in the company and Sherk coming off of a big (but controversial) win does not set up that fight.
I also through out Guida v. Sherk, so the wait for Miller/Kamal might not be a problem if he's put up against someone like Sherk instead.
Nobody objected to Guida vs Sherk. I'm not sure why you brought it up again.
That's exactly how I look @ it. Rampage either gets to avenge a controversial decision loss to Griffin or a dream fight with Rich. Jones/Bader need bigger wins on their resume. Jones' biggest wins are against Vera, Hamill, and Vlad, none of them top 10. Bader had a somewhat weak fight with both Jardine and Lil Nog, names-but the performance wasn't anything to brag about. A win for either IMO just secures them a top 10 slot and doesn't really put them in title contention.
Jones may not have any Top 10 wins yet, but Lil Nog was ranked #6 when Bader just beat him. Ryan Bader is already a Top 10 fighter.
Fight Magazine (rapidly becoming the most popular rankings on the net due to their mathematical reasoning for their rankings) ranks Bader at #7 and Jones at #8.
You're a moron. Bloody Elbow is an AGGREGATE RANKINGS SITE! Do you know what that means? That means they take the ratings from a multitude of noteworthy sites, journalists and columns to make their rankings.
Compiling the rankings of twenty top mixed martial arts web sites, the USA TODAY / SB Nation Consensus MMA Rankings present the top 25 fighters in MMA for the seven major weight classes. These world MMA rankings are the most accurate reflection of how the top fighters in MMA across all promotions like UFC, WEC, Affliction and DREAM are viewed by the experts who cover the sport.
You don't call somebody buddy if you aren't their buddy, pal.
And yes, I think you're a moron for insultingsomething without first knowing how they work. "Well I've never heard of them so they must be a bunch of stupid heads." It's respected enough that it's printed in USA Today.
Gaylord
Last edited by PMBR; January 3rd, 2011 at 1:22 PM.
And no I didn't catch the Dane Cook reference and I don't get into name calling over message boards. Sorry Dubya I know you wanted Bloodsport, but you'll have to settle for the first half of Karate Kid III where I won't fight until I go through Quicksilver.
PMBR you have to calm down and learn to read. I never said they weren't top 10 already, I just didn't think they had beaten top 10 guys or in Bader's case I didn't think had a very exciting showing against Lil' Nog, who looked like ass against Brilz as well. If someone else ranks them higher good for them, but I don't see how calling me a gay moron means anything....Fact is I PERSONALLY do not rank them where your personal favorite websites rank them.
PMBR you have to calm down and learn to read. I never said they weren't top 10 already, I just didn't think they had beaten top 10 guys or in Bader's case I didn't think had a very exciting showing against Lil' Nog, who looked like ass against Brilz as well. If someone else ranks them higher good for them, but I don't see how calling me a gay moron means anything....Fact is I PERSONALLY do not rank them where your personal favorite websites rank them.
If you don't have both Jon Jones and Ryan Bader in your Top 10, then it must be seriously outdated. The only people who are undoubtedly above them in the rankings are:
Shogun
Rashad
Rampage
Lyoto
I expect that you'll try to argue for a few extra names to go above Bader and Jones. Let me save you the trouble.
If you say Forrest Griffin, you are ignoring facts. Forrest is 1-2 in his last 3 fights. In those 2 losses, he got KO'd badly. His only win is a split decision over a guy who hasn't won a fight in over 4 years.
If you say Rich Franklin, you are putting too much emphasis on his 185 and 195 work instead of his 205 fights. In Rich's last 3 bouts at 205, he had a comeback KO on a man who has only one win since 2006, lost to Dan Henderson and beat Matt Hamill, who, at the time, wasn't even a Top 20 fighter. Regardless of weight class, Franklin is 2-2 in his last 4.
If you say Thiago Silva, I get to laugh at you. The only two big names he has ever faced (Rashad and Lyoto) beat him... and the only two quality wins he has under his belt (Jardine and Vera) are guys who Jones or Bader have already finished. You can't use Jardine or Vera as examples of why Silva is better when the same case applies to the other fighters. At best, they could be even, but Jones/Bader are on winning streaks while Silva is 2-2 in his last 4.
If you say Randy Couture, I get to laugh at you. The old man hasn't defeated a quality opponent at 205 since Vitor Belfort in 2004. I could make the argument that he lost to Brandon Vera, but why waste my breath considering that Jones already decimated that same opponent, who you've dismissed as a quality opponent.
PMBR will continue to make his case concerning non-UFC fighters in the spoilers below. If you are satisfied with what you've already seen, you may skip to the bottom.
If you say Gegard Mousasi, then you might have a decent argument. The only problem with ranking Mousasi above them is his weakness against a strong wrestler...which both Jones and Bader are. You can also point to the fact that Mousasi got dominated by a lesser opponent only a few fights ago, while neither Bader or Jones have ever been dominated at any time in their respective careers.
If you say Dan Henderson, you're putting too much emphasis on his work outside of 205. His wins at Light-Heavyweight are rare, but they are over the unranked Babalu and then you have to look back to PRIDE to find another 205 win. He also recently got dominated by a guy who fights at 170 pounds.
If you say Rafael Cavalcante, you aren't looking at his quality of opposition. His only quality win is over Muhammad Lawal, who was an untested champion and has only one quality win under his belt.
If you say Muhammad Lawal, you aren't looking at his quality of opposition and you are ignoring that he just got knocked horribly unconscious. Lawal has one quality win under his belt (Gegard Mousasi).
So... who exactly are you putting above Jon Jones and Ryan Bader that keep them out of the Top 10?
Last edited by PMBR; January 3rd, 2011 at 3:35 PM.
And I'm the moron....P, I've said already that they are top 10. My last post even starts out "So we can all agree they are top 10?"
I think where you became blind was back when I said that a win secures them a top 10 slot but doesn't put them in title contention. They'd still have to go through any of those 4 you mentioned, and I think Thiago Silva is a name in the UFC that is neck and neck with Jones and Bader in that 7-10 area. Right now for me that #5 spot is what a lot of guys are fighting for.
What if I said because Thiago finished Jardine 2 rounds sooner than Bader and the performance Bader had against the only top 10 fighter he's faced was pretty weak gives Thiago a reason to be up there. Yeah he lost to top guys but who has Bader fought outside of Lil Nog that matters? When he fought Jardine that dude was already holding his jaw together with glue and Bader couldn't finish him as quickly as others have....
Last edited by UncannyIowan; January 3rd, 2011 at 4:15 PM.
What if I said because Thiago finished Jardine 2 rounds sooner than Bader and the performance Bader had against the only top 10 fighter he's faced was pretty weak gives Thiago a reason to be up there.
If those are your two reasons, then they are pretty awful.
Sticking to a gameplan and winning the fight is all that matters. How quickly you beat a mutual opponent means nothing. I know dubya told you to defend yourself but it's just getting sad now that you've resorted to MMAth as a legitimate reason why one fighter is better than another. "HE BEAT HIM QUICKER". Dennis Hallman beat Matt Hughes faster than Georges St. Pierre did, so I'll make the argument that Hallman is on the same level as the current champ!
Bader's performance against Lil Nog was absolutely impressive. He took him down and controlled him when he needed to. To do that to an elite level MMA fighter is astonishing. It may not be exciting and it may not be pretty, but it's damn sure impressive. Hell, that's how Gray Maynard ended up a title contender in the most stacked division in MMA.
Not to mention that my exact words are "they could be even ."
Yeah he lost to top guys
The undefeated guy who beat his top opponent should rank higher than the guy who has gone 0-2 against top opponents. If you give Bader one more top opponent and he loses, he still went 1-1 against top opponents while Thiago is batting .000
Yeah Gray was also set to fight for the title if he beat Diaz, but due to his performance, which was very similar to Bader/Nog, he was pushed aside in favor of a guy he had already beat. Then Gray had to fight another top guy in Kenny Florian, and while that fight wasn't really anything great it forced the hand of the UFC due to wins. Just like Fitch, who had to go 9-0 before getting a title shot because of his style.
I honestly don't get what your problem is today, not sure where the tough guy attitude is coming from on the message board, but I feel I've already proven that what you're arguing about is stale because we all agree they're top 10 guys.....You keep trying to make it out like I didn't think they were, but that's just a sign of you wanting to be a tough boy in 2011.
Yeah Gray was also set to fight for the title if he beat Diaz, but due to his performance, which was very similar to Bader/Nog, he was pushed aside in favor of a guy he had already beat. Then Gray had to fight another top guy in Kenny Florian, and while that fight wasn't really anything great it forced the hand of the UFC due to wins. Just like Fitch, who had to go 9-0 before getting a title shot because of his style.
Let's not lump Bader in with Maynard AND Fitch. I compared one performance to one performance. Not multiple careers full of snoozers. Mr. Bader has finished 40% of his fights in the UFC and in impressive manner, something that neither Fitch or Maynard can claim.
Also, as I've been over this before, Fitch waiting to get a title shot had less to do with his performances and more to do with TUF 4's results and the aftermath of Matt Hughes and then GSP losing their titles, Serra being injured and having to unify the belt the interim title that was created in the meantime. Keep in mind that the drama in the welterweight title picture began in November 2006 and didn't conclude until April 2008. Fitch got the first title shot immediately after the situation had been resolved.
And I just pointed out that Maynard's style might have got him a title shot but at what expense? To be overlooked? You didn't compare ONE performance, you said Bader's fight against Lil Nog is what got Gray to the top of the 155 division and I didn't know if you forgot that Gray was overlooked cuz of his boring style or what you meant.
Maybe I need to rewatch that fight, but I recalled seeing takedowns and I remember the angry interview I read where Lil Nog was bitching about the result because takedowns are overvalued.
Bader took lil Nog down and controlled him whenever he needed to?
Lil Nog stuffed about a thousand Bader takedowns. I assume that I'm just reading that wrong.
Bader didn't do shit but outpoint Lil Nog, which pisses me off in the UFC more than anything. Fucking point fighters need to lose violently. And if the guys with a zero in the loss column have proven over the last couple years, that first loss comes with a violent KO...just ask Thiago Silva, Rashad, Machida, Bisping.
You're right Lil Nog did "bitch" but he had a valid point. Bader took him down a few times but didn't do shit.
-Brandon Vera vs. Babalu Sobral
-Marcus Davis vs. KJ Noons (Strikeforce) or Katsunori Kikuno/André Dida (Dream)
-Phil Baroni vs. Waachiim Spiritwolf/Roger Bowling/Zaromskis (Strikeforce)
Would love to see Spiritwolf get a name-win on his resume. Even if it is that name .. the kid has got spunk. that fight he had with Evangelista is still one of my favs of the year. Great fight.
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Why would Noons destroy Davis? They would absolutely stand the entire time because both guys are comfortable there and both guys have a lot of faith in their standup.
Noons is 11-2 as a boxer and Davis went 17-1. As far as pure boxers squaring off in a cage, I think it would be one of the best boxing matchups in MMA history.
Davis does well against guys with strong striking credentials. Jess Liaudin has several striking medals and titles. Chris Lytle was a pro boxer. He gave Dan Hardy a lot of trouble in a fight that a lot of people think he won... he nearly finished Nate Diaz with strikes and was completely dominating Jeremy Stephens.
I think Noons is way too fast for Davis. Davis is a great boxer.. that gets utterly picked apart by Nate Diaz and then KO'd by Jeremy Stephens.. neither of whom are as fast as Noons. Noons by KO/TKO.. before the 3rd round.
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I won't comment on Davis' speed in the Diaz fight only because he seems considerably faster now that he has dropped to 155. Stephens really only landed one decent punch in 13 minutes. Unfortunately, it turned the lights off.
You can't just discredit his fights at 170 cuz he fights at 155 now .. his entire career is at 170.. and Noons is like 10 years younger than him. I just think it would be another name for Noons to put on his resume and it could be a good fight .. but I just don't see Davis making it 3 rounds with someone as fast as Noons that also has the serious KO power that Noons has.
Even so though, Noons is still a lot faster from where I'm sitting .. I'd still take Noons by TKO/KO before the 3rd.
Last edited by Dubya; January 10th, 2011 at 2:24 PM.
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I prop Noons, homeboy stood in there with Nick Diaz in their rematch. I don't think Marcus Davis could fuck with a guy who was younger and just as if not more skilled than Marcus is on the feet. Jeremy Stephens is not KJ Noons, they have a totally different striking style. It would be a fight I'd pay to see though for sure.
I'll be honest man, I haven't been too happy with "Who's Next" for Nick Diaz in Strikeforce. That's why I feel this guy needs to get to the UFC, I'd rather see Nick Diaz against the likes of Thiago Alves, Martin Kampmann, than Cyborg Santos (male version). Cyborg isn't even that good, but it seems like Strikeforce is putting guys who are mainly strikers up against Diaz.
I'll be honest man, I haven't been too happy with "Who's Next" for Nick Diaz in Strikeforce. That's why I feel this guy needs to get to the UFC, I'd rather see Nick Diaz against the likes of Thiago Alves, Martin Kampmann, than Cyborg Santos (male version). Cyborg isn't even that good, but it seems like Strikeforce is putting guys who are mainly strikers up against Diaz.
Agreed, but Diaz seems to be happy. He just re-signed another long-term contract with Strikeforce. I don't think Cyborg has much of a chance against him. Hell, he barely got past Spiritwolf (and I still think he lost) so Diaz will probably maul him.
Tyrone Woodley is coming up fast, but I don't think he could really fuck with Diaz either.
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His problem is that he's too short to be really great at 170 if his main fallback is his boxing. Proof in the pudding being Nate Diaz's (who is not at all known for his boxing) manhandling of him.
Then again I felt he looked unhealthy at 155. Seems like he is just cursed with a bad frame.
When did this happen? Diaz clowned him on the feet.
You don't remember Joe Rogan talking about why Nate Diaz shouldn't be taunting? He did it once in the first round, and Davis rocked his ass. Diaz is great at recovering and good for him.
I'd say do Daley/Zaromsis. Zaromskis is one of the bigger names that Strikeforce can provide considering he is a DREAM champ, but is absolutely not getting another title shot anytime soon, so it doesn't matter if he loses.
Zaromskis should be good to go fairly soon. His last two fights has lasted an epic 0:06 and 2:16 respectively, with him not absorbing any damage whatsoever.
I'd like to see Diaz/Cyborg, Daley/Noons and Smith/Zaromskis.
If Daley wins, regardless of the other bouts results - give him a title shot
If Noons and Zaromskis win - let them fight each other
- If Noons wins that one, do Diaz/Noons 3
- If Zaromskis wins that one, do Zaromskis vs Daley - #1 contender
If Noons and Smith win - let them fight each other
- If Noons wins that one, do Diaz/Noons 3
- If Smith wins that one, do Cyborg/Smith
As Cyborg's record can show you, the welterweight division in Strikeforce is so weak, that you can get a title shot after only one win in the company. Strikeforce really wants to get Paul Daley a title fight, and if he can also fight KJ Noons or do a Diaz/Noons rubber match, that's another exciting fight.
Tyron Woodley needs to start being entered into the conversation as well. The kid's 8-0 with 6 of those wins in Strikeforce. All but 2 by stoppage. No one huge on his list yet, but he's beaten some good fighters in Taric Saffiedine, Andre Galvao, and Rudy Bears. He needs a good name-value win to solidify a title shot of course, but that's what I'm saying. He's gotten through the best of the other prospects, so bump him up the ladder and give him a name opponent.
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Who does Diego Sanchez have to beat after Martin to get a title shot? Does he need to get the revenge win against Kos and Fitch, just one of those 2 would be a great rematch.
Who does Diego Sanchez have to beat after Martin to get a title shot? Does he need to get the revenge win against Kos and Fitch, just one of those 2 would be a great rematch.
Loads of people? He'd be on a two fight winning streak after losing to an unknown.
Yeah Diego isn't really close to a title shot. He would need to beat Kampmann and then the winner of Condit/Lytle and then winner of Fitch/Penn. Maybe he'd get a shot after that, but if not, he could go after Shields next.
Yeah, he really isn't. If he beats Kampmann, I'd think he'd need 2 more good wins.
If GSP does move up to 185 after the Shields fight, the most logical and hasty thing to do, in my head, is set up the winners of Penn/Fitch and Condit/Lytle for a title shot. Any pairing should make for an interesting fight and a fairly deserved champion. I don't think Penn has done enough in beating Hughes, but if he beats Fitch and then Condit/Lytle .. I gots no problems calling him the champ. Hell, I'd be on-board if he beat Fitch.
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He wouldn't do it. He already said that if Kos were to beat GSP and defend once or twice, that he'd move back up to 185. I'm thinking that, barring some epic breakdown (kos fucking fitch's girl or something), we should probably just give up on it. Lol. .. though, I'd love to see it.
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He said that before GSP was moving up. I'm not sure Fitch likes his chances in a division where GSP is. Hell, I'm not sure he likes his chances in a division where Chael Sonnen is.
Any combo of Fitch/Sonnen/GSP could make for awesome wrestling.
Guillard - hmm .. I think Sherk is out for a bit again, so maybe .. Wiman? Danzig? the Siver/Sotiropoulos winner? the original matchup he was supposed to have.. with Yves Edwards?
Dunham - Cole Miller? Mac Danzig? depending on time table, the original matchup with Kenny Florian? Joe Stevenson? Charles Oliveira?
Mitrione - he was actually on Junkie Radio this morning and they mentioned some names. Shane Carwin was suggested by a caller and Mitrione actually admitted that he didn't think he was ready for that yet. The 2 names that were mainly discussed were Ben Rothwell and Cheick Kongo.. I'd be okay with either of those really. I hate Kongo so I'd like to see him beat up on Kongo.
Hague - ...
Hominick - Aldo apparently.
Roop - Eric Koch?
Wiman - Mac Danzig rematch? Stevenson? Guillard?
Barry - its always a little hard to come up with an opponent for him, but I'm just gonna say the winner of the Hunt / Tuchscherer fight?
Beltran - if either him or Hague get another fight, put em against each other. loser leaves town!
Yves Edwards - I like Yves. I think he should get a good fight. I'd still like to see the fight with him and Melvin Guillard. I think it could be a more marketable fight now too with them both winning on the same card and all.
Last edited by Dubya; January 24th, 2011 at 5:57 PM.
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I'd love to have seen a prime Yves Edwards take on Melvin Guillard, that would have been a fight held at ridiculous pace.
I would actually like to see them fight but I reckon Melvin will be getting someone higher profile.
I like the idea of Evan Dunham vs Cole Miller and Matt Wiman's rematch with Mac Danzig.
Barry/Mitrione would be fun, even though they train together. And with their exchange at the last event they could hype it up somehow. Would be interesting to see how many leg kicks Meathead can take from Pat.
Do Guillard/Florian and Dunham/Oliviera! Guillard gets the fight with another Top 10 lightweight opponent and the two lightweights with ridiculous potential who lost their last fight quickly.
Do Guillard/Florian and Dunham/Oliviera! Guillard gets the fight with another Top 10 lightweight opponent and the two lightweights with ridiculous potential who lost their last fight quickly.
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Originally Posted by dubya
That fight was the SHIT!
That's exactly how I look @ it. Rampage either gets to avenge a controversial decision loss to Griffin or a dream fight with Rich. Jones/Bader need bigger wins on their resume. Jones' biggest wins are against Vera, Hamill, and Vlad, none of them top 10. Bader had a somewhat weak fight with both Jardine and Lil Nog, names-but the performance wasn't anything to brag about. A win for either IMO just secures them a top 10 slot and doesn't really put them in title contention.
Didn't catch the Dane Cook reference? 
