WWE Ratings Discussion

[Defrost]

Summerslam bombed

Breakdown of the last 5 Summerslams. Last year's Summerslam buyrate was considered a disappointment. Didn't hit that mark this year.

Summerslam 2006: 529 buys (61% Domestic - 11/1/07 8-K form) = 322k domestic
Summerslam 2007: 537 buys (66% Domestic - 11/1/07 8-K form) = 354k domestic
Summerslam 2008: 477k buys ($39.95) @ 66% domestic = 315k domestic ($12.6MM domestic PPV revenue split)
Summerslam 2009: 369k buys ($39.95) @ 63% domestic = 232k domestic ($9.3MM domestic PPV revenue split)
Summerslam 2010: 350k buys ($44.95) @ 56% domestic = 196k domestic ($8.8MM domestic PPV revenue split)

[Cewsh]

Why would showing kids their heroes covered in blood be a good thing?

[Defrost]

This notion of kids watching is odd considering the average age of a Raw viewer is pushing 40 and the Attitude Era had way more kids watching.

Maybe if Nexus got color on guys Summerslam wouldn't have bombed.

[The_Mike]

Why would showing kids their heroes covered in blood be a good thing?

So they know that when you hit someone with a chair or punch them in the face, they won't just shrug it off and give you the Attitude Adjuster.

It's not a huge deal, but it's a pet peeve of mine (and apparently kangus shares it) when people try to shield children from the consequences of violence in order to somehow protect them from the violence they're still going to see. It's like computer games having blood removed to make things more child friendly even though they children still see a teenage girl skewered with a sword. Or thinking letting them watch Tom and Jerry is ok because when Jerry smashes Tom on the head with a sledgehammer it just makes a little bump and then he's fine in the next scene... but a little blood in a wrestling match is the worst thing since Katy Perry's cleavage.

[RockOverBoston]

I can't stand the comedy. Santino is a good character, but almost everything else is shit. My balls hurt when the laptop started making lame jokes. I don't know why they think the fans will side with a computer over someone like Edge.

And that's the even more maddening thing -- the computer has been a heel for the most part, but Edge is as well. Who exactly are people supposed to be supporting here? Anyone? Anyone have an answer here? The unfunny computer...or the, uh, sympathetic heel?

That was fairly obviously one of the worst segments on RAW in recent memory, which is a mouthful, as there have been some painfully bad segments on RAW in recent memory.

Turning Cena heel would spring up some interest.

It certainly couldn't hurt anything overall, but as Defrost's earlier list points out, RAW stands to get absolutely clobbered by MNF fairly frequently in the coming weeks regardless of the content of the show, so is this really the right time?

[Badger]

Superstars the RASSLIN show still has some great comedy.

[Kure]

That was the plan.

It worked for them from the 80's into the Attitude era. Sometimes I feel like they are trying to catch lightning in a bottle by reproducing the circumstances that led to the boom. It's not going to happen.

[xpacnumber1fan]

WWE marketing itself to kids is retarded. What good does TV PG do them? It can attract more ad revenue, which is a good thing. Other than that, I don't know.

I have no idea how WWE expects to market itself to kids and be successful. This is a business that's portrayed as real people fighting each other to resolve problems, sometimes with the use of weapons. That's just the very nature of pro wrestling, no matter what else you do. You can have all the magical leprechauns running around you want. There are other shows that have violence that are marketed to kids of course (all action cartoons, even ones like Tom and Jerry, MMPR). But those are just shows that make money off of ads and toys.

Kids aren't buying PPVs. Kids aren't buying tickets to go see shows. WWE expects parents to do that just for the kids? In this economy? Yea it might work for arena shows but no parent in their right mind is going to buy something for 45 bucks on PPV they don't want to watch just for their kids, and DEFINITELY not 14 times a year, especially when they know that the kids can just find out the result the next night. All WWE are doing with this dumb crap they show on TV is insulting their key money spending demographic.

I said something about Hornswoggle crap on Smackdown and mth said it's just harmless comedy for kids. Which is all fine and dandy except for the fact that you are just causing the majority of your adult viewers to roll their eyes and change the channel. WWE might be marketing itself to kids now but, maybe its just me, I don't notice some huge amount of kids watching the show, at least not more than there were during the Attitude Era. It's not like there aren't ways to do comedy that are kid friendy and doesn't flat out insult the majority of your audience. Santino and 2009 DX are a good example of that.

You can't sell a PPV on two guys that hate each other fighting inside of a structure called Hell in a Cell as fine for kids to most concerned parents. Do they really think that any parent that is not ok with blood and violence would let their kid watch that? Do they think that they can sell to a parent that there is a TV PG version of a Hell in a Cell match? Their not. And when they do all that cleaning up, all their doing is causing the people that have the money to buy that PPV not get as emotionally invested in seeing the pay off.

TV PG by far isn't the only reason WWE is in crapper in ratings and PPV buys. TV PG isn't the reason they have crap writers and isn't the reason they insist on pushing the same guys at the top for years at a time. I think that McMahon and the WWE have deluded themselves so much into thinking that they are not a RASSLIN company, that they forgot that the people watching their shows are wrestling fans. A Senate campaign should not affect what I watch on TV. A toy company should not decide who gets hired and fired. I don't think they should be distracting themselves so much on making crap C grade movies that they lose focus on their main vehicle of revenue.

But this TV PG nonsense is just putting an additional strain on the company. I don't want to see tranvestites. I don't want to see cock jokes. I don't want to see necrophilia and I don't want to see Randy Orton painting his face and walking around with a machete threatening to kill John Cena (although I wouldn't mind it in real life). I don't want to see CZW style ultra violence garbage wrestling. But I also don't want to see matches in heated feuds being stopped because a guy is busted open. I don't want to see magical leprechauns. I like seeing blood when used in a proper conext. I like hearing the Rock call people candy asses and seeing Stone Cold drink beer. I don't want to see a Dora the Explorer version of a cage match.

And I can't imagine most 20 years olds would think differently.

[xpacnumber1fan]

It worked for them from the 80's into the Attitude era. Sometimes I feel like they are trying to catch lightning in a bottle by reproducing the circumstances that led to the boom. It's not going to happen.

The 80's were a much different time. TV as a whole was a lot cleaner. There was no Jerry Springer and there wasn't any Jersey Shore where all you have is people named Snooki and The Situation talking about grenades and smashing.

[ANT]

I like hearing the Rock call people candy asses and seeing Stone Cold drink beer.

Looking back, this all seems kinda juvenile as well.

[The_Mike]

Looking back, this all seems kinda juvenile as well.

I mostly disagree. Austin drinking beer seemed fine - he was a tough redneck rough-houser who liked to drink. That's a fair enough character trait and it's beer, so it's not as if it is particularly childish for a guy to drink a beer after a match and flaunt his rebellious attitude. The beer bashes in later years got old and tired very quickly but he was retired and by then WWE was already transitioning into making everything as safe and familiar and standard as possible.

The Rock's comments about candy asses, yeah, that's kind of silly, but I much preferred The Rock being able to express himself freely and say 'grown up words' like ass without it being a big deal. When someone drives a car at a wrestler's head and that wrestler wants to "kick their butt" in response, it kills any possible emotion in the story. A brash, arrogant young man saying "I'll whip your candy ass" with the intensity someone like The Rock could muster is a big improvement over "I'll kick your butt" and the other weaksauce retorts WWE have ended up with.

[ANT]

Its all perspective for me, really. Maybe its because I was 11/12/13 or so during the attitude era, but most of that stuff was 'cool' because at that age you're not allowed to drink beer or say certain words.

Other than Austin, I can't see how 'adults' actually thought that stuff was really cool, at least looking back on it now being in my 20s.

[Defrost]

Are you serious?

[OD50]

I was quite a bit past the 20 mark during the Attitude Era. As far as I remember I enjoyed it a lot.

[xpacnumber1fan]

I don't know what type of 20 year old you are but I think its a safe assumption most of them talk like that. A teen nowadays isn't speaking like Theo Huxtable, more like their favorite emo rock band. Sure, stuff the Disney channel peddles still gets massive ratings with tween girls, but it wouldn't surprise me if right after finishing High School Musical they turn on Keeping Up With The Kardashians.

[ANT]

I just think things like "candy ass" or "suck it" definitely lose their luster after you hit like 18 or so. Even earlier, really.

I mean, its like a halfway point. Its almost a childish way of being vulgar, you know. Like you're just learning bad words or something.

Or maybe I've just heard so much worse that those types of things sound pretty stupid in comparison.

[Vice]

I respect you.

[Defrost]

How bad is Bragging Rights going to do? Wrestlemania underperformed with a strong build. Summerslam outright bombed with the Nexus deal.

Last year Bragging Rights was an utter disaster and this year it is coming the day after Brock vs Cain and on the same night as Vikings vs Packers. Could this be closer to 50,000 Domestic Buys than 100,000?

[xpacnumber1fan]

I mostly disagree. Austin drinking beer seemed fine - he was a tough redneck rough-houser who liked to drink. That's a fair enough character trait and it's beer, so it's not as if it is particularly childish for a guy to drink a beer after a match and flaunt his rebellious attitude. The beer bashes in later years got old and tired very quickly but he was retired and by then WWE was already transitioning into making everything as safe and familiar and standard as possible.

The Rock's comments about candy asses, yeah, that's kind of silly, but I much preferred The Rock being able to express himself freely and say 'grown up words' like ass without it being a big deal. When someone drives a car at a wrestler's head and that wrestler wants to "kick their butt" in response, it kills any possible emotion in the story. A brash, arrogant young man saying "I'll whip your candy ass" with the intensity someone like The Rock could muster is a big improvement over "I'll kick your butt" and the other weaksauce retorts WWE have ended up with.

I can't think of a single person that would be gearing up to fight somebody they dislike that would speak to them the way John Cena does. Obviously what most people DO say isn't fit for WWE TV, even during thee Attitude Era, but what was said back then sounds a heck of a lot closer to what they're saying now, in 2010 of all times.

[mth]

I just think things like "candy ass" or "suck it" definitely lose their luster after you hit like 18 or so. Even earlier, really.

I mean, its like a halfway point. Its almost a childish way of being vulgar, you know. Like you're just learning bad words or something.

Or maybe I've just heard so much worse that those types of things sound pretty stupid in comparison.

Yeah, I've gone back and watched some DX skits and stuff for the Attitude Era and thought they were terrible. Some of Rock's promos, as well as he did them, had some really stupid/childish things in them that really aren't any better than some of the bad Cena promos now days.

Personally, I just want better writing/booking, otherwise, I would be more than happy if WWE stayed TV-PG indefinitely. I don't even miss blood.

[xpacnumber1fan]

I am saying it now. It will be the worst selling PPV of all times. And BFG will get 3,000 buys.

[ANT]

Do you like pie, mth?

[Defrost]

I have no idea what world mth and ANT are living in.

Rock, DX, and Austin were so infinitely beyond what we are getting now I have no comprehension on how to describe it.

[OD50]

One thing I remember hating during the MNW's were the DX/nWo pre-match spiels. The one I hated the most was the one the New Age Otlaws did; "Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages..."

Konnan: ''Toss the salad jabroni blahblah..."
Scott Steiner: ''Big Poppa Pump is your hook up...''
Rick Steiner: "If you don't like me, BITE ME!"

Ugh.

I do like when wrestlers use words like ''ass'', ''bitch'' and similar. Not because it's cool but just a more normal way of talking when you have issues with someone. Like Mike said, if you hate somebody that have beat up your dad, tried to run you over and stolen your girl would anyone say "Darn it you bozo, now I'm going to kick your bootie"?

[Defrost]

I am saying it now. It will be the worst selling PPV of all times. And BFG will get 3,000 buys.

You may be giving TNA too much credit there.

WWE needs 70,000 overall buys more or less to break even. I doubt this gets dangerously close to that, but the direction things are going...

[mth]

Do you like pie, mth?

I actually got in trouble for saying 'poontag pie' at the dinner table back then, ha. I had no idea that it was a common slang term, so my brother was going on a date and I asked if he was going to get a slice of poongtang pie and got yelled at. THANKS A LOT ATTITUDE ERA ROCK.

Seriously, though, that song about pie he did on one of the music albums, holy crap, that was awful.

And Frosty, DX 2009 > any other incarnation in any other time frame.

Also, I'm not denying Austin/Rock were awesome for a lot of reasons, but that doesn't mean they didn't cut some silly promos or do some childish things. "Rooty-poo candy-ass" is a pretty stupid insult, and if Rock hadn't said it, and Cena did, he'd get crapped all over.

[Defrost]

Dwayne Johnson made shit work that Cena can't because of the insane chasm of talent between the two of them.

And you leave me speechless giving any praise whatsoever to the bastardized versions of DX of the last 5 years.

[mth]

Rock's superior charisma doesn't make the content any less stupid.

And I stand by my DX statement. Attitude Era DX was awful. 2006 DX was REALLY awful.

[Defrost]

Cena's material is a lot worse too.

[OD50]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVHbUJjyuSM&feature=related"]YouTube - DX one night only funny segment part 2[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8n4Vn-zOKg&feature=related"]YouTube - Funny Moment of John Cena, DX and Hornswoggle[/ame]

[ANT]

Old, senile Shawn Michaels was golden. Loved the hornswoggle stuff too during the DX/Cena "feud". Much better than that one Summerslam poster where "HHH cooks a big sausage, HBK cooks a little one".

[mth]

DX probably made the best use of Hornswoggle since he was just a rabid weapon for Finlay.

[Hero!]

"Darn it you bozo, now I'm going to kick your bootie"?

Hey you rude man, I speak like that! Continue to mock my manner of speaking and I will be forced to take action and beat you up!

[Defrost]

The only time the midget was entertaining was the buildup to WM 24 when JBL kept almost beating it to death.

[xpacnumber1fan]

You may be giving TNA too much credit there.

WWE needs 70,000 overall buys more or less to break even. I doubt this gets dangerously close to that, but the direction things are going...

If December to Dismember did 90 something thousand buys, I think this can dip under that number. Not when there were two WWE PPVs the month before, there was a UFC event a month before, there is a Lesnar fight the night before, and Survivor Series is less than a month away.

And for TNA, I figure there are at least 3,000 rabid TNA supporters out there, even if some of it is just the families and friends of the employees or something.

Rock's superior charisma doesn't make the content any less stupid.

In a sense it does. Anything can be stupid if not delivered correctly, and on the other end, almost any material can be awesome if the person doing it knows how to work it. And I don't think there is really any sort of sophisticated comedy. Rock can do things like...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3i...erent-lang_fun

...and not sound stupid to most people because he makes it funny. Any comedy can be stupid in the eyes of any particular person.

The difference between the Rock and Cena is that there is a difference between childish and geared for kids. Most 18-34 year old males will find funny things that can be considered childish. Most won't find funny things that are geared for kids.

And the thing is, even things are geared for kids can be funny to adults. Things like Finding Nemo and Shrek did big business because even though they were kid friendly, the humor was mature enough to be found entertaining by adults as well.

I don't call crap like Hornswoggle unfunny because he's made for kids, it's because it's not funny. When Finlay and DX were using him I liked it because they used him in a way that didn't insult the fans intelligence. DX's gimmick were that they were adult guys that liked to have fun and act goofy, which is not something that's unbelievable at all. WWE, as much as it would like to think so, is not a comedy show or a drama. It has elements of it, but it has to be portrayed in a realistic way, or at least in a manner that when it's goofing around you know that it's guys goofing around. Stuff like R Truth getting blown up by MacGruber might have not been my cup of tea, but it was fine because it was portrayed as having fun. But when you have him walking through walls and trying to teach him to talk like he is 5 when he has a beard that rivals Mike Knox', it's retarded.

[TheSupremeForce]

I've found Hornswoggle mostly watchable since he was sent to Smackdown. He interacts well with Teddy Long and hanging out with the Dudebusters is hopefully a sign that they're turning face. Heel Dudebusters never made any sense anyway.

I vastly prefer Comedy Edge to whatever it was he was doing prior. His work over the last couple of months has won me over. If they'd booked him like that since his return, he could have stayed on Smackdown as the top face.

[Anaconda Sniper]

The only time the midget was entertaining was the buildup to WM 24 when JBL kept almost beating it to death.

[Beer-Belly]

Danny McBride is no longer hosting RAW. Let the ratings continue to decline. You don't cancel Kenny FUCKING Powers without devastating repercussions.

[Cewsh]

TV PG isn't the reason they have crap writers and isn't the reason they insist on pushing the same guys at the top for years at a time.

?

Wouldn't it be fair to say that they have more new main eventers and upper midcarders than at any time in recent memory?

[Vice]

Danny McBride is no longer hosting RAW. Let the ratings continue to decline. You don't cancel Kenny FUCKING Powers without devastating repercussions.

Having just gotten into Eastbound & Down for the lovely little show that it is, I'm sad to hear this news.

[The Guy on the Couch]

70,000 to break even?

I have always wondered about that. Like after all is said in done how much it would take for them to actually lose money. If that answer is 70,000 they should be safe for a long time yet.

I really hope they don't give up on things because ratings aren't great. That is what wcw starting doing towards the end and that hurt them worse. I mean a few minor tweaks are fine, but scrapping shit left and right will do little more than piss the people that are already watching off.

[RockOverBoston]

You don't cancel Kenny FUCKING Powers without devastating repercussions.

A-fucking-men.

"People have asked me whether or not I'm a xenophobe. My answer to that is no. It's just that America is the best country in the fucking world, and every other country can suck my fucking dick."

Seriously, though, McBride would have been appearing to promote "Eastbound And Down" (amongst other things), and there's simply no way to TV-PG Kenny FUCKING Powers up. Or even TV-14 that up, for that matter. (Censors - YOU'RE FUCKING OUT!) Frankly, young kids shouldn't be watching that show whatsoever. Everyone else should, sure. Not young kids.

[Beer-Belly]

But, and this is a big fat ass Oprah "but", Johnny Knoxville is hosting RAW soon.

Randy Orton is a big Eastbound & Down fan. I would much rather watch Kenny Powers interact with Orton for two hours than suffer through the average PG RAW bull-shit. I'd love to see Randy adopt a variation on the Kenny Powers character and play it for all it's worth.

Randy's entrance theme should be "Death Is The Answer" by Early Man.

[RockOverBoston]

I would much rather watch Kenny Powers interact with Orton for two hours than suffer through the average PG RAW bull-shit. I'd love to see Randy adopt a variation on the Kenny Powers character and play it for all it's worth.

As would I, but let's be realistic here.

[Beer-Belly]

I think Randy Orton would love that change up. His higher-ups would decidedly not like it at this point. I think they should base their show around Orton and his nastiness. People love anti-heroes. Archie Bunker, Eric Cartman, STONE COLD, Kenny Powers: all mean-spirited mother fuckers that still have an endearing human quality that people still cling to.

They will have to come up with some answers soon. I don't mind the TV-PG era, but it's not working right now. They put the big title on Orton, and his character's attitude is most not definitely "PG".

My worst fear is that Orton ends up taking the brunt for the down turn in the ratings. That would be awful. The Viper character is a breath of fresh air.

[RockOverBoston]

My worst fear is that Orton ends up taking the brunt for the down turn in the ratings. That would be awful. The Viper character is a breath of fresh air.

I think you and I just need to not talk about politics, is all, because once again, this is dead-on.

Since this is so logical, though, Orton will somehow obviously bear the mark of shame for having the belt put him...at the very beginning of the NFL season...when an otherwise bad WWE product stood to deservedly get its ass kicked anyway.

Best we can hope for is SHOCKING new NXT leader Trips taking the title back at, say, Survivor Series...and the ratings improving none whatsoever.

[Kure]

Hopefully they actually keep developing his character though. Now that he is so over, I'm afraid he is in danger of being Cena'ed where they keep it right where it is. "No Randy! Walk slower to the ring. Rub your head more. More, dammit!" Before long he'll just be a caricature. Slow-moving head-rubbing twitchy caricature.

[Matty C]

I was 20 in the year 2000. I thought Rock was hilarious and Austin was great. Has it aged well? Possibly not but that has a lot to do with it no longer being original. At the time it was new and you didn’t expect what was coming or it was at least fresh in that you hadn’t heard a professional wrestler go around talking about pie and strudel.

My Father was 50 and he loved it too.

Don’t try and pass the Attitude Era off as being as childish and idiotic as much of the stuff today. The freshness of what they were doing and the presentation of things were far superior.

That doesn’t mean they need to rehash the AE. They just need to find the next fresh and exciting topic(s) in order to become relevant again and grab the attention of the mainstream. Whether they can do that while attempting to be blatantly family friendly is the question… the only answer that I know for sure is that the current direction is not working. The ratings and PPV numbers support that.

[Mark Hammer]

That's a fact Matty. My parents actually got into it from late 99 to just before WCW was purchased. And it all started when they saw a Rock promo.

[Smiddy]

Originally posted by mth
DX 2009 > any other incarnation in any other time frame.

You do get that originally D-Generation X were supposed to be spoilt, childish, immature brats? Other than being an inside joke, that was the whole point of the gimmick. All that happened in 2009 was that WWE finally realised that Helmsley and Michaels grew up a long time ago, and that they had also previously conveyed that to their audience. Therefore it was time to drop the gimmick's original motivation in place of nostalgia based on their years of friendship (and their rivalries). Without the success of DX in 1997 and 1998, we would have never seen the group/ duo in their 2009 incarnation (or in 2006 either for that matter).

2000 vs. 2010 really doesn't come down to content, it comes down to the quality of the content. The late eighties and early nineties were also marketed to a younger demographic, and those years were some of WWE's very best. There's also the huge problem of the literal policing of the content of today's programming, which only the veterans and the elite have the skill to rise above.

Originally posted by OD50
Problem with a good ol' fashioned blood feud is that the ref would put on some rubber gloves and wipe it away before it even got started...

OUCH.

[Mark Hammer]

Also sorry mth but that claim is absurd. There is no way that the 2009 version was better than the original 97 version.

[Chris]

I think a wrestling show can survive with a PG rating. The storylines, the characters and their motivations and all the other aspects of writing determine how interesting or exciting a show is. The PG rating simply serves to restrict bad writers from using the odd cheap heat device like someone getting busted open - a horribly boring feud might be perked up a bit, if only temporarily, with a little blood or a swift chair-shot to the skull.

Even if the product improved in the eyes of some of its critics in this thread, it probably wouldn't be reflected in the ratings or buyrates. People are looking to conserve money in the current economic climate. They might be willing to buy a UFC show or a WWE show, but not both. Even if they think a WWE PPV is worth buying, they might split it with a few friends or wait for the DVD to come out.

It might take something radical to refreshen the WWE product. A break in programming is one option. WWE has tried so hard to centre itself as an entertainment show rather than a wrestling show - perhaps it's time to do away with the all-year programming and have WWE run in seasons like any other TV show. It would give fans a break for a few months (which can only be a good thing if they're bored or disillusioned with the product) and give the wrestlers time to heal up from injuries. The writing team and all the other higher-ups can spend time looking at what did and didn't work in the previous season and draw up some concrete plans for the next.

I mean, Randy Orton and Sheamus are squaring off on PPV for the third time at Hell in a Cell (and that's just in a one-on-one scenario). For all the new blood that's been called up over the years, there's still a tendency to rehash the same match-ups over and over again. The constant mix of Cena, Orton and Triple H in 2009 did my head in. The answer isn't to just put someone brand new in the fold and see if they'll sink or swim. A break in programming, along with more compelling storylines of course, might help to stop feuds from being burnt out so quickly. Putting two guys in a gimmick match in the subsequent PPV (the gimmick already being determined by the PPV schedule rather than the intensity of the feud) isn't going to work in the long-run. People are just going to get sick of seeing the same guys facing each other and the same gimmick matches popping up at the same time each year.

[Mark Hammer]

I mean, Randy Orton and Sheamus are squaring off on PPV for the third time at Hell in a Cell (and that's just in a one-on-one scenario). For all the new blood that's been called up over the years, there's still a tendency to rehash the same match-ups over and over again. The constant mix of Cena, Orton and Triple H in 2009 did my head in.

It's pretty hard to be invested in a match if you've seen it a trillion times before and you know there will be countless rematches afterwards.

[xpacnumber1fan]

?

Wouldn't it be fair to say that they have more new main eventers and upper midcarders than at any time in recent memory?

Yea FINALLY. And even then, they still put them up with the same people up at the top.

For example, other than No Way Out and Wrestlemania this year, Cena has been not only in the main event, but the last match of every PPV. How fresh is that?

And look at Sheamus. Ever since he has been in the main events, who has he faced on PPV? Including when he won the title...

TLC - Cena
RR - Orton
Elimination Chamber - Cena, Orton, HHH, Kofi, and Ted
WM - HHH
ER - HHH
Over The Limit - Wasn't in a match but he kicked Cena after his match
Fatal Four Way - Cena, Orton, and Edge
MITB - Cena
Summerslam - Orton
Night of Champions - Jericho, Orton, Cena, Barret, and Edge
Hell in a Cell - Orton

Noticing kind of the trend? Just an endless circle of Orton and Cena with a little HHH to spice it up. And when HHH comes back, who do you think he is going to feud with?

Thank GOD Orton turned into a mega face so he seems fresh. But they have to keep going back to Cena, HHH, and now Orton as faces because they have no idea how to strongly push a new face. It's like they're completely clueless on Raw. Hardy and Lashley are the closest things they've come to in years, and hell, in WWE even Russo could have booked Hardy and he would have been a mega star.

[ANT]

How else are they going to build someone like Sheamus up if they don't put him against the 'top guys' though?

I mean, he's just now getting there himself. And its not even been a year. Most of time guys go through 3-4 feuds a year. If anything, him constantly feuding with HHH, Orton, and Cena has benefitted him.

[ANT]

I honestly don't think that anything said in this thread would make much of a difference. The times are just different, and it won't matter what the rating is, who's feuding, what the name of the next PPV is, I'm almost pretty certain that the next episode of RAW will be destroyed by Monday Night Football ratings wise. At most you might a modest bump if something big happened.

And I don't even think the last few RAWs have been all that bad, or at least nothing out of the ordinary. Every RAW will have its hits and misses just like it did years ago.

[TapOut]

Yeah, I've gone back and watched some DX skits and stuff for the Attitude Era and thought they were terrible. Some of Rock's promos, as well as he did them, had some really stupid/childish things in them that really aren't any better than some of the bad Cena promos now days.

Personally, I just want better writing/booking, otherwise, I would be more than happy if WWE stayed TV-PG indefinitely. I don't even miss blood.

I probably look back on the stuff more fondly than you because, like Matty, I remember watching it when it was all new. I had the benefit of the AE coming into age right along with me... I was a tot when Hogan was getting huge and fighting Savage, Andre, Warrior, etc., and the New Generation era happened when I was 8 - 12 years old, and right when I hit 13 we had Austin, Foley, HBK, Hart, Trips, Taker, Rock, etc. all gaining edgy characters.

When Rock was doing some of his skits, sure, some of the may have been corny and ridiculous, but you didn't compare it to Cena then because there was no Cena: it was all brand new. Today though, its easy to say "Man, that sounds like a bad Rock promo" because we all remember The Rock and its true, some of Cena's promos are aiming for the same type of style and delivery as The Rock.

I don't want to turn this into Cena bashing... I'm just using that as the comparison.

Back during the Attitude Era, you had these guys really letting loose with their real-life selves. The WWE let it happen even at the expense of advertisers and bad press, and it payed off more than even they probably could have hoped.

I don't necessarily want another Attitude Era or a return to PG-13 or R-rated material, but if that's what it takes to spark the creativity again, I really don't care.

[xpacnumber1fan]

How else are they going to build someone like Sheamus up if they don't put him against the 'top guys' though?

I mean, he's just now getting there himself. And its not even been a year. Most of time guys go through 3-4 feuds a year. If anything, him constantly feuding with HHH, Orton, and Cena has benefitted him.

Its a bad thing because it gets stale very quickly. WWE simply doesn't have the writing to make it exciting. Its just the same crap over and over. Imagine if at one PPV that Sheamus was champion Morrison had won a number 1 contender's match. If they then proceeded to have the match they had on Raw on PPV instead, it would have been fresh, it would have been exciting, and it would have benefitted both men. They didn't HAVE to give Orton the title so quickly. At what point does it go from benefitting to detrimental?

If it wasn't for the fact that Sheamus is so awesome I would be bored of him already.

[UncannyIowan]

How else are they going to build someone like Sheamus up if they don't put him against the 'top guys' though?

I mean, he's just now getting there himself. And its not even been a year. Most of time guys go through 3-4 feuds a year. If anything, him constantly feuding with HHH, Orton, and Cena has benefitted him.

They had to put Sheamus in feuds with these guys because he was given the title wayyy too fast. He was beating Goldust and Shelton Benjamin on ECW barely, then squashed Jamie Noble, then a couple weeks later he's the World champion....I'm all about adding new faces, but it's hard for me to rally behind guys thrust into the World title picture based on the way they look or who went to FCW and put their name at the top of a list.

I probably look back on the stuff more fondly than you because, like Matty, I remember watching it when it was all new. I had the benefit of the AE coming into age right along with me... I was a tot when Hogan was getting huge and fighting Savage, Andre, Warrior, etc., and the New Generation era happened when I was 8 - 12 years old, and right when I hit 13 we had Austin, Foley, HBK, Hart, Trips, Taker, Rock, etc. all gaining edgy characters.

When Rock was doing some of his skits, sure, some of the may have been corny and ridiculous, but you didn't compare it to Cena then because there was no Cena: it was all brand new. Today though, its easy to say "Man, that sounds like a bad Rock promo" because we all remember The Rock and its true, some of Cena's promos are aiming for the same type of style and delivery as The Rock.

I don't want to turn this into Cena bashing... I'm just using that as the comparison.

Back during the Attitude Era, you had these guys really letting loose with their real-life selves. The WWE let it happen even at the expense of advertisers and bad press, and it payed off more than even they probably could have hoped.

I don't necessarily want another Attitude Era or a return to PG-13 or R-rated material, but if that's what it takes to spark the creativity again, I really don't care.

This is how I feel, I converse with cats like Cewsh about how it's different when you actual witness something as it happens versus going back years later and watching it. I'm sure Bruno Sammartino holding the title for 20 years was great for the era he did it in, but when I go back and watch him I think "damn, this is boring, what was the big deal?"

I'm fortunate enough to have grown up and actually have memories of the 80's and 90's, which I feel the last 10 years have been a mixture of. What I see today in the PG world is far different than what I grew up with.

[Defrost]

I have no problem with someone winning the title like that. I mean Brock Lesnar was 1-1 in UFC before becoming Heavyweight Champion of the World so it isn't unrealistic.

[UncannyIowan]

I have no problem with someone winning the title like that. I mean Brock Lesnar was 1-1 in UFC before becoming Heavyweight Champion of the World so it isn't unrealistic.

Brock Lesnar was also credible even at 1-1, he about killed former World champion Frank Mir and had legit collegiate wrestling credentials....unlike in the pro wrestling world where a guy like Sheamus beating a jobber and having muscles doesn't exactly equal a world title contender. At least Brock's first feud was against mega popular Team Extreme.

[Cewsh]

Has there ever been any evidence that "fresh" matchups do better business than the top guys?

[Kyle_242]

I honestly don't think that anything said in this thread would make much of a difference. The times are just different, and it won't matter what the rating is, who's feuding, what the name of the next PPV is, I'm almost pretty certain that the next episode of RAW will be destroyed by Monday Night Football ratings wise. At most you might a modest bump if something big happened.

And I don't even think the last few RAWs have been all that bad, or at least nothing out of the ordinary. Every RAW will have its hits and misses just like it did years ago.

Agree completely. I haven't read the entire thread but I think the ratings have much more to do with MNF than it does the quality of RAW...I actually think RAW has been quite good the past few weeks. But even then, RAW always gets DVR'd in favor of MNF for me...if I had to choose between the two, MNF would be the no-brainer. Football is just massive and seems to keep getting bigger and bigger...and this is coming from a Canadian.

Thank GOD Orton turned into a mega face so he seems fresh. But they have to keep going back to Cena, HHH, and now Orton as faces because they have no idea how to strongly push a new face. It's like they're completely clueless on Raw. Hardy and Lashley are the closest things they've come to in years, and hell, in WWE even Russo could have booked Hardy and he would have been a mega star.

Also agree with this...but I think it's pretty hard to push a new face in the PG world. Because really, what do you do? The entertainment climate is very gritty right now, people want edgy, badass heroes that aren't exactly PG. Orton fits this well, but he had to be a heel for a long time to get over, his first face run was a disaster. Cena's character change from Smackdown to Raw took forever to get over (I admittedly stopped watching during this process), but look at him now, he's huge. And even with that persistence he still gets booed in some places.

I think this is why most new wrestlers seem to be debuting as heels...it's easier to write a personality for a heel because they HAVE to have a personality to get hated. With a face...what can you really do? Be quiet and hope your moves get you over? Didn't work for Evan Bourne.

[xpacnumber1fan]

Has there ever been any evidence that "fresh" matchups do better business than the top guys?

No but there is evidence that having the same guys on top over and over doesn't help it.

Doing it every once in a while keeps things fresh and exciting. No one expects that R Truth in one main event will pop a huge buyrate, but it helps programming overall. WWE has a ton of guys that are over and can sell if used properly. If you have a particularly strong match on the Smackdown side or if you have a strong semi main with two top stars, you can afford to experiment and freshen it up. Having Sheamus go with a strong heel run against some of the top uppermidcard faces, along with giving guys like Cena and Orton strong programs with other guys would go a along way in freshening up WWE TV.

Plus, fresh matchups are the only way to make new top guys. Look at Sheamus.

[UncannyIowan]

Has there ever been any evidence that "fresh" matchups do better business than the top guys?

That depends, I'm sure fresh matchups with top guys is better business than seeing the same 3 guys over and over. I don't mean fresh as in new guy that hasn't been in the title picture, but I mean if you took Undertaker and Cena 7 years after their first run-in and put them in a feud now I'd bet it'd be more appealing to fans than another Randy Orton/Triple H feud.

[xpacnumber1fan]

Also agree with this...but I think it's pretty hard to push a new face in the PG world. Because really, what do you do? The entertainment climate is very gritty right now, people want edgy, badass heroes that aren't exactly PG. Orton fits this well, but he had to be a heel for a long time to get over, his first face run was a disaster. Cena's character change from Smackdown to Raw took forever to get over (I admittedly stopped watching during this process), but look at him now, he's huge. And even with that persistence he still gets booed in some places.

I think this is why most new wrestlers seem to be debuting as heels...it's easier to write a personality for a heel because they HAVE to have a personality to get hated. With a face...what can you really do? Be quiet and hope your moves get you over? Didn't work for Evan Bourne.

I don't agree. Evan Bourne was hot as hell when partnered up with Cena and could have been making waves in the upper card right now. What killed him was WWE knocking him back to jobber status after about 3 weeks of having awesome matches.

R Truth has never been a heel since his redebut and he is still hot. But I swear its like WWE are doing everything in their power to kill his heat. Can you tell me the last time he had a nice strong program?

[UncannyIowan]

I don't agree. Evan Bourne was hot as hell when partnered up with Cena and could have been making waves in the upper card right now. What killed him was WWE knocking him back to jobber status after about 3 weeks of having awesome matches.

R Truth has never been a heel since his redebut and he is still hot. But I swear its like WWE are doing everything in their power to kill his heat. Can you tell me the last time he had a nice strong program?

I think that's really what it boils down to. There is talent on both shows that are being cemented as midcarders against the fans' will through horrible writing, possibly vets using their stroke to maintain a top spot in these lackluster times. The WWE then breaks them down to the point where you almost agree that you must've been wrong in liking that wrestler since he's STILL underutilized, STILL floating around in meaningless storylines masked as "ways 2 get them t.v. time....". Not everyone can be a main eventer, but it wouldn't kill the WWE to push a couple more guys harder.

[Chris]

It would be really interesting to see the results of those surveys that are done on wwe.com from time to time - where fans are asked how they watch PPVs, what they would like to see more often, etc, etc. We can all too quickly blame WWE for the constant gimmick PPVs, but perhaps that's what a good portion of fans surveyed asked for. In the case of the latter, what are WWE expected to do?

I don't agree with the notion that it's easier to write for a heel. If anything, heels may be more difficult because they can elicit a positive response if they make a really good joke at someone else's expense or dish out a really cool beatdown on someone. Austin's character from 2000/2001 would easily fit in to today's product - he played to the fans with a catchphrase, he said he was going to beat someone up and then he came out and did it. And the fans ate it up. He wouldn't be able to say the word "Ass" or have blood streaking down his face (and that didn't happen often on TV anway), but there wasn't anything particularly PG-14 or R-Rated about Austin in those days.

I think the writers should try to keep things more simple like that - John Cena giving a monologue, when the jokes aren't very funny and he's not very good at delivering them, isn't playing to his strengths. If he's going to talk for an extended amount of time, he should at least have a massive chip on his shoulder. He's damn near invincible, so have him be aware of that; rather than being a goody-two-shoes who thinks nothing of his Dad getting slapped or a wrestler trying to run him over in a car.

But like I said earlier, I don't think a good or bad show is going to matter much in relation to the ratings/buyrates. People being strapped for cash is only going to get worse in the near future, so WWE would be doing well just to hold at the level it's at currently.

[xpacnumber1fan]

Look at Kofi on Raw. People say it was his fault but I fail to see it. When his program with Orton first started fans were rabid for him. Kofi stepped up his game, delivered good heated promos, and had a defining moment with the Boom Drop at MSG. But what happened? They had him face Orton and Legacy like 20 more times to the point of staleness with no further development or focus then did absolutely nothing with him after the program finished. Its like WWE is terrified of having new faces get good strong solid wins over a series of top guys.

[ANT]

Big pushes are WAY easier for heels than faces. Some 6-8 monster who rarely talks can win the title in less than a year and he'll get largely booed after beating on Cena or Orton enough times.

A heel getting little reaction is bad, but its not near as noticeable as a face getting no reaction. Thats almost embarassing.

Faces just have to stick around longer for fans to get behind their offense, unless they're like Bourne or Kofi, who have more exciting offense. Heels don't need that.

And I think Bourne's push declining is largely due to Bryan Danielson. I mean, he took the underdog role and had a built in storyline with more build with Miz than anything Bourne could have as quickly.

[Kyle_242]

I think that's really what it boils down to. There is talent on both shows that are being cemented as midcarders against the fans' will through horrible writing, possibly vets using their stroke to maintain a top spot in these lackluster times. The WWE then breaks them down to the point where you almost agree that you must've been wrong in liking that wrestler since he's STILL underutilized, STILL floating around in meaningless storylines masked as "ways 2 get them t.v. time....". Not everyone can be a main eventer, but it wouldn't kill the WWE to push a couple more guys harder.

That's true...I was thinking about it more and R-Truth came to mind as probably most over "pure face" guy who doesn't seem to be near the main event...and the problem is that they don't seem to be doing anything with him. Christian would be another example...the crowd loves him (I think he was getting the biggest pop on Smackdown for awhile there), but the WWE refuses to do anything with him.

Bourne's push did feel like it was "pulled" by the WWE itself, and not due to lack of interest from the fans, but I still think his character was bland and I can't picture him in the main event. And don't get me started on Morrison (who ironically, they seem to really want to push to the moon).

So maybe the answer is as simple as just giving the fans the guys they want? I dunno..the other problem with that is that it doesn't always turn out well when a fan favorite wins the title (Jericho's first run, Benoit, you could even throw Mysterio in there).

[UncannyIowan]

And that just shows another negative to the WWE's writing...

"OMG, 2 guys who are short can't BOTH be underdogs, so instead of figuring something else out we'll just put him in a nowhere tag-team with Mark Henry aka King of tag-teams that never do shit"

Evan and Bryan danielson for the US title. That's ppv. I want to PAY to see awesome wrestling, I don't want to PAY to see Raw with 45 extra minutes, which is basically what the majority of ppvs are these days. RVD wasn't Mr. PPV because he was on every ppv, it was because what he brought was on a higher level worth paying good money to see.

[UncannyIowan]

So maybe the answer is as simple as just giving the fans the guys they want? I dunno..the other problem with that is that it doesn't always turn out well when a fan favorite wins the title (Jericho's first run, Benoit, you could even throw Mysterio in there).

Jericho's first run was poor timing, not very many people-including Jericho fans-expected or even wanted him to walk out of that ppv with the belt.

Benoit and Rey, again, another example of bad booking. It wasn't like all the sudden these guys sucked and the fans turned on them, they just had poorly written reigns.

[Kyle_242]

Jericho's first run was poor timing, not very many people-including Jericho fans-expected or even wanted him to walk out of that ppv with the belt.

Benoit and Rey, again, another example of bad booking. It wasn't like all the sudden these guys sucked and the fans turned on them, they just had poorly written reigns.

Alot of it was booking, but I think some of it had to do with the build-up being better than the aftermath. There's a reason why movies end after the protagonist achieves his goal...what else can they really do? Just like if someone's story is to FINALLY win that WWE title...ok...they won it...now what?

Easier for a heel to be in that position, because people WANT you to drop the belt and will tune in to see you lose. Hell, I'd argue that even Cena had that going for him for awhile...alot of people were dying to see him drop the belt.

Anyway, fundamentally I agree that the WWE is having trouble booking top tier faces, but at the same time I don't think it's really that easy. As for the ratings, I'm sticking to MNF being the factor.

[Cewsh]

Nobody since the really great days of Attitude Era WCW was any good at pushing main event faces at all. It is easily the hardest thing to do in wrestling.

[xpacnumber1fan]

Yea but WWE has made obviously stupid moves. It's hard but not impossible. Top faces are the people that draw the money for the company (for the most part).

How hard is it to push someone the fans themselves are saying they want to see? Pushing someone like Danielson as a top face is tricky since he had no heat, but someone like R Truth or Christian? Even I could do that.

[UncannyIowan]

Yea but WWE has made obviously stupid moves. It's hard but not impossible. Top faces are the people that draw the money for the company (for the most part).

How hard is it to push someone the fans themselves are saying they want to see? Pushing someone like Danielson as a top face is tricky since he had no heat, but someone like R Truth or Christian? Even I could do that.

face it, the WWE is lazy. And I think there are probably a couple top guys playing politics to keep their position secure even if it means boring us to death with 7 months of the same shit.

[ANT]

I don't think people get that you can't push every guy at the same time. They're pushing Orton. They're pushing Bryan. They're pushing Morrison. They're pushing Sheamus, They're pushing Nexus. They're pushing Miz. And thats all on RAW. Guess what guys, other guys are going to have to take losses regularly for this to happen.

R Truth isn't even someone I think you need to push really. His position on the card is fine. And I largely think the same about Christian.

[UncannyIowan]

I don't think people get that you can't push every guy at the same time. They're pushing Orton. They're pushing Bryan. They're pushing Morrison. They're pushing Sheamus, They're pushing Nexus. They're pushing Miz. And thats all on RAW. Guess what guys, other guys are going to have to take losses regularly for this to happen.

R Truth isn't even someone I think you need to push really. His position on the card is fine. And I largely think the same about Christian.

Eh, it's not about just a "push" but what kind of push. They're pushing Morrison? Doesn't look like he's any further up the ladder than he was 3-4 years ago when he was the IC champion and then the ECW champion.

It's not even about wins and losses, it's about variety. It's about who's getting pushed, why they're getting pushed, and if the WWE decide to continue to "push" these guys before saying fuck it and going back to Orton v. Cena or Triple H for another 12 months.

Variety is what blew up the WWF in the 80's and 90's. It's what made WCW dominate the WWF in ratings for 2 years, it's what attracts people to TNA and RoH and other promotions (idc about ratings/buyrates, people watch the shows).

I totally agree, you can't push every single person at the same time but there's nothing really special in the title picture that we haven't seen over and over.

[ANT]

But at the same time, in the past, most of the guys who were pushed at the top were pushed because they were legitimately the most over on the roster.

Now we're talking about guys who are kinda over and in the process of getting over, and getting mad that they aren't main eventing. There's nothing wrong with being in the US/IC title scene for a while. I mean Morrison is fine where he's at. He's gaining momentum but IC/US title level isn't hell, and if anything guys like him should be feuding over that title so it looks better.

You can't pack the roster with 'Midcarders we're trying to push to the main event'. You have to have midcarders who are actual midcarders. R-Truth and Christian fit that bill to me and I have no problem with where they are at.

Not to mention everyone seems to ignore the mega push Sheamus got or Nexus doing far better than they have any right to be doing collectively.

I just don't get the idea that its not a push if they aren't main eventing or winning the world title. Especially when we complain about how little the titles mean.

[xpacnumber1fan]

I don't think people get that you can't push every guy at the same time. They're pushing Orton. They're pushing Bryan. They're pushing Morrison. They're pushing Sheamus, They're pushing Nexus. They're pushing Miz. And thats all on RAW. Guess what guys, other guys are going to have to take losses regularly for this to happen.

R Truth isn't even someone I think you need to push really. His position on the card is fine. And I largely think the same about Christian.

The people want to see R Truth and Christian and they have the skills to handle a push. No brainer to me.

And you can push multiple people strongly. How is Bryan getting a strong push in the midcard affecting Orton's push at main event? RECENTLY WWE has been doing well in pushing heels, but they still suck at faces. Not everybody can main event at the same time, but you can push a bunch of guys strongly in the midcard, eventually moving them up while rotating some of the top guys out of the main event slot for a while. You do that by not wasting 20 minutes of airtime every week on worthless segments that serve no purpose. The had 6 hours, now 5 of weekly programming and you're telling me its not possible?

[ANT]

They get to see R Truth and Christian though. I think they are both fine in their position. Over midcarders are desperately needed.

If an oppurtunity arises and some guys leave or get injured and they push Christian to the main event, then thats cool. But I don't really see an urgent need to have him headline Wrestlemania or anything. He can stay where he is and put over Del Rio eventually and that would be awesome. I don't think a world title run has to be involved for it to be considered a push.

[xpacnumber1fan]

Plus what are jobbers for?

[Cewsh]

How hard is it to push someone the fans themselves are saying they want to see?

Incredibly. Because fans don't know what they want.

[xpacnumber1fan]

They get to see R Truth and Christian though. I think they are both fine in their position. Over midcarders are desperately needed.

If an oppurtunity arises and some guys leave or get injured and they push Christian to the main event, then thats cool. But I don't really see an urgent need to have him headline Wrestlemania or anything. He can stay where he is and put over Del Rio eventually and that would be awesome. I don't think a world title run has to be involved for it to be considered a push.

Smackdown DOES desperately need new faces at the top. All they have are a broken down Taker, a broken down Rey, and an old Big Show.

[xpacnumber1fan]

Incredibly. Because fans don't know what they want.

That's the same attitude Bischoff and Russo have and its a crappy way to run a company.

[Cewsh]

Pandering to your fans obsessively was Paul Heyman and Gabe Sapolsky's idea.

I'll take Bischoff and Russo. It actually made them money.

[UncannyIowan]

But at the same time, in the past, most of the guys who were pushed at the top were pushed because they were legitimately the most over on the roster.

Now we're talking about guys who are kinda over and in the process of getting over, and getting mad that they aren't main eventing. There's nothing wrong with being in the US/IC title scene for a while. I mean Morrison is fine where he's at. He's gaining momentum but IC/US title level isn't hell, and if anything guys like him should be feuding over that title so it looks better.

You can't pack the roster with 'Midcarders we're trying to push to the main event'. You have to have midcarders who are actual midcarders. R-Truth and Christian fit that bill to me and I have no problem with where they are at.

Not to mention everyone seems to ignore the mega push Sheamus got or Nexus doing far better than they have any right to be doing collectively.

I just don't get the idea that its not a push if they aren't main eventing or winning the world title. Especially when we complain about how little the titles mean.

They get to see R Truth and Christian though. I think they are both fine in their position. Over midcarders are desperately needed.

If an oppurtunity arises and some guys leave or get injured and they push Christian to the main event, then thats cool. But I don't really see an urgent need to have him headline Wrestlemania or anything. He can stay where he is and put over Del Rio eventually and that would be awesome. I don't think a world title run has to be involved for it to be considered a push.

I think there's more to getting pushed than just being on t.v. though. Like I said, it's all about variety. I think the basis of this entire conversation started with us talking about the main event world title scene looking bland.....So more than likely we'd be talking about why it's stale and why they need variety. Some people though are content with what they see, I'm not, which is cool , that's what makes the world so special.

You're talking about midcarders needing to be over, and that's great, but what about when they've reached their full potential and it's time to see if they can make it at a higher level? Wouldn't that mean put someone in their place? There are a lot of guys who are talented that rarely get t.v. time, why not make room for them and if they suck they can be replaced.

Smackdown DOES desperately need new faces at the top. All they have are a broken down Taker, a broken down Rey, and an old Big Show.

Exactly, same 2-3 guys, same exact results. I mean seriously, push Christian to the main event, and if he fails he can go back to "putting over" people.

[ANT]

I don't know how its the same guys when they spent the last year pushing Sheamus to the top, and are currently giving a group of rookies a huge push.

Not to mention we all know Miz kinda has a briefcase. I mean since losing HBK and Batista they've made a concentrated effort to push these guys.

Its just not going to happen overnight. Otherwise you get Jack Swagger.

[Cewsh]

But they DID push Jack Swagger. Swagger, Miz, Punk, Sheamus, Nexus, etc.

[xpacnumber1fan]

Because Sheamus has been working with the exact same group of top guys.

And Edge, you are going to the other extreme. If you ask me, listening to the fans was what made Bischgoff successful. When he stopped he went into that downward spiral. And Heyman's booking is what kept him going for so long. Heyman lost his company because he is a horrible businessman. You know this so I dont even know why you would say that. Heyman is a brilliant booker.

[Cewsh]

Because Sheamus has been working with the exact same group of top guys.

And Edge, you are going to the other extreme. If you ask me, listening to the fans was what made Bischgoff successful. When he stopped he went into that downward spiral. And Heyman's booking is what kept him going for so long. Heyman lost his company because he is a horrible businessman. You know this so I dont even know why you would say that. Heyman is a brilliant booker.

You have to use prior main eventers to make new main eventers. That is professional wrestling and I invite you to provide any example of that not being true.

Eric Bischoff was not listening to the fans when he made the NWO, because they didn't know they wanted it. Fans never do. If you want a crystal clear example of fans not truly knowing what they want, check out any time WWE has let the fans vote on things, and the buyrates and ratings of said events.

And Heyman had his moments. So did Vince Russo.

[ANT]

Because Sheamus has been working with the exact same group of top guys.

Well no shit. HHH, Cena, and Orton are 3 of the most over faces on the roster. THATS why they do that.

Its usually a slow process to get guys to that level. They can't just be over, they have to be more over or as over as the Cena's and HHH's and Orton's.

Thats how Cena, Batista, and Edge got their first titles, and thats probably why they actually stuck around. They were the most over guys on the roster when they won their first title. For that to work today you'd have to get a face on RAW getting Cena and Orton level pops.

Otherwise you get a 'fresh' matchup between guys who are kinda over for the title, and they look stupid because there's a bigger matchup without the title between the really over guys. Just like Summerslam 2008.

[xpacnumber1fan]

But they DID push Jack Swagger. Swagger, Miz, Punk, Sheamus, Nexus, etc.

All heels.

Eric Bischoff was not listening to the fans when he made the NWO, because they didn't know they wanted it. Fans never do. If you want a crystal clear example of fans not truly knowing what they want, check out any time WWE has let the fans vote on things, and the buyrates and ratings of said events.

And Heyman had his moments. So did Vince Russo.

Fans wanted something new and were tired of Hogan. He turned him heel. But either way, this is starying from the original point. Listening to what the fans want is not something to shrug off because "they don't know what they want". If the fans are cheering their heads off for a guy, then it means they probably wouldnt mind paying money to see him. And if the guy has the skills to handle a big push, then why not. It's common sense.

You have to use prior main eventers to make new main eventers. That is professional wrestling and I invite you to provide any example of that not being true.

Well no shit. HHH, Cena, and Orton are 3 of the most over faces on the roster. THATS why they do that.

Its usually a slow process to get guys to that level. They can't just be over, they have to be more over or as over as the Cena's and HHH's and Orton's.

Thats how Cena, Batista, and Edge got their first titles, and thats probably why they actually stuck around. They were the most over guys on the roster when they won their first title. For that to work today you'd have to get a face on RAW getting Cena and Orton level pops.

Otherwise you get a 'fresh' matchup between guys who are kinda over for the title, and they look stupid because there's a bigger matchup without the title between the really over guys. Just like Summerslam 2008.

I'm pretty sure I addressed this in this same thread.

ANT said

"How else are they going to build someone like Sheamus up if they don't put him against the 'top guys' though?

I mean, he's just now getting there himself. And its not even been a year. Most of time guys go through 3-4 feuds a year. If anything, him constantly feuding with HHH, Orton, and Cena has benefitted him."

I said

"Its a bad thing because it gets stale very quickly. WWE simply doesn't have the writing to make it exciting. Its just the same crap over and over. Imagine if at one PPV that Sheamus was champion Morrison had won a number 1 contender's match. If they then proceeded to have the match they had on Raw on PPV instead, it would have been fresh, it would have been exciting, and it would have benefitted both men. They didn't HAVE to give Orton the title so quickly. At what point does it go from benefitting to detrimental?

If it wasn't for the fact that Sheamus is so awesome I would be bored of him already."

Sheamus is the top heel on the brand, he is over as heel, and he is credible. Ever since his feud with HHH ended, he hasn't been facing Cena and Orton constantly because they are trying to get him over. IT'S BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO OTHER TOP FACES. THAT'S the problem I'm trying to get at.

If they want to get a new top face over, who the hell is he exactly supposed to face? Jericho is gone and they did nothing with him to help make anybody.* Edge is feuding with a computer. Wade Barrett can't help get anyone over right now. The only positive progress they are making right now is with Miz and Bryan. Sheamus should be doing that right now with a Morrison or a Truth, not face Randy Orton AGAIN. And I bet that unless they decide to turn Trips heel, Sheamus is going to come out the winner in this feud with Randy Orton at Bragging Rights and then face HHH all the way to Elimination Chamber AGAIN.

Unless WWE gets some new faces up there quickly, Sheamus is going to go the same route Orton has for the past 3 years, as the main heel fodder for Cena and HHH on Raw. Except this time it will be for Cena, HHH, and Orton.

You guys keep on saying they are pushing new guys. Which is true. They are strongly pushing some new heels. But Cena especially is becoming a very big stale problem. You can have Cena facing a new guy every month, but if still going to be Cena at the top in the main event matches, and people are tired of seeing him, then no one is going to care. They need to keep Cena in the undercard, like they are going to do at HIAC, and keep him there for a good long while.

"It's usually a slow process to get guys to that level." Christ it's been YEARS. In the 5 years since they made Cena and Bats they've only been able to get 3 new faces to be strong main eventers (RVD, Lashley, and Hardy). That's horrible. It's not like they don't have the talent. It's not like guys haven't had the fan support. WWE just sucks at it.

*I take that back. Jericho did help out Bourne a lot in their little program, WWE just failed to take advantage of it.

[UncannyIowan]

But they DID push Jack Swagger. Swagger, Miz, Punk, Sheamus, Nexus, etc.

Problem is, sometimes the E is quick to go back to "what works", and the idea is that as time goes on these cats will continue to get pushed. Really pushed, not just pass time till Undertaker gets back- pushed.

You have to use prior main eventers to make new main eventers. That is professional wrestling and I invite you to provide any example of that not being true.

Eric Bischoff was not listening to the fans when he made the NWO, because they didn't know they wanted it. Fans never do. If you want a crystal clear example of fans not truly knowing what they want, check out any time WWE has let the fans vote on things, and the buyrates and ratings of said events.

And Heyman had his moments. So did Vince Russo.

Anyone who doesn't understand the logic of "passing the torch" is an idiot.

I think the fans do know what they want. A great example would be when they actually let the fans vote. You mean to tell me that at Cyber Sunday, the fans didn't want HBK-broken leg and all, to wrestle Triple H over Benoit and Edge? Or when they voted Matt Hardy and Rey Misterio over guys who were heels and/or nowhere near as popular as them?

More often than not, the WWE has the right idea, they don't tell us what we want though. That's why not everyone likes everything that happens. The fans DID want to see the WWF v. WCW after all the shit talking, you're Helen Keller at birth if you don't think Bischoff used the bad blood between the 2 companies as a way to lure fans in. If fans cheer, 9 times out of 10 they get pushed, sometimes better than others, but I don't too many solid talents that had real responses not get some type of push.

John Cena is still main eventing because fans want to see him. Not all fans, just like all fans don't want to see Randy Orton or Triple H or Santino. You keep saying fans don't know what they want when the reality is the WWE just can't GIVE the fans everything we want, they can't SATISFY our individual needs. That's why we get high.

[ANT]

Unless WWE gets some new faces up there quickly, Sheamus is going to go the same route Orton has for the past 3 years, as the main heel fodder for Cena and HHH on Raw. Except this time it will be for Cena, HHH, and Orton.

You guys keep on saying they are pushing new guys. Which is true. They are strongly pushing some new heels. But Cena especially is becoming a very big stale problem. You can have Cena facing a new guy every month, but if still going to be Cena at the top in the main event matches, and people are tired of seeing him, then no one is going to care. They need to keep Cena in the undercard, like they are going to do at HIAC, and keep him there for a good long while.

I'm sorry, but thats just bullshit.

"People are tired of Cena" is the type of shit you see on forums and such that doesn't translate into the shows.

Guess what, there are only two people on RAW who can stare at each other and make a crowd go crazy. Cena and Orton. Complain all you want about how much you think he's boring. Thats irrelevant.

The actual shows show that Cena and Orton are without a doubt the two most over guys on the roster and the fans would rather see them over anyone. Thats undeniable fact no matter how many online testimonials on how sick of Cena a few people are.

From WWE's standpoint, thats all they got to go on. Orton was getting crazy reactions, he's now the champion. The fans as a whole obviously aren't tired of him. Same for Cena. You have detractors, but everyone does, and its not enough for WWE to even take a bit of notice, no matter how many times you go on about nobody caring.

[Defrost]

Again reactions do not matter. Crowds pop for guys who no longer draw. Watch Nitros from the slow death of WCW as proof.

[ANT]

Well how else are they supposed to determine who to push now? I mean, they have it on Orton now and ratings only got worse. So what, does that mean that Cena and Orton shouldn't be anywhere near the title?

Its easy to say "none of them draw", but if the guys getting the most reactions shouldn't be in the main event then who else? What else does WWE go on to determine who main events. They can't just throw a bunch of new people in there and hope it works. Evan Bourne, Christian or Kofi going up against Sheamus this week won't stop the buyrate from being shitty. It probably would make it worse.

Not to mention its an absolute retarded practice not to keep the most over guys around the belt. The belt means shit if you don't do that.

[Defrost]

The way they've booked the things have killed the belts. The belts haven't meant anything for years now.

As for what WWE can do it is their fault they are in this position. They are petrified of having anyone ever beat HHH, Cena, or Orton. They have run the same 5 matches into the ground and no one cares anymore. The same exact thing WCW did. Back then you can only see Hogan vs Luger or Hogan vs Flair so many times. WWE is in the same place WCW was in 1999.

By the way Hogan got big pops on those shows because that is the reaction guys pushed as stars get. Problem is they are getting pops from far fewer people since viewers are bailing in droves.

[xpacnumber1fan]

I'm sorry, but thats just bullshit.

"People are tired of Cena" is the type of shit you see on forums and such that doesn't translate into the shows.

Guess what, there are only two people on RAW who can stare at each other and make a crowd go crazy. Cena and Orton. Complain all you want about how much you think he's boring. Thats irrelevant.

The actual shows show that Cena and Orton are without a doubt the two most over guys on the roster and the fans would rather see them over anyone. Thats undeniable fact no matter how many online testimonials on how sick of Cena a few people are.

From WWE's standpoint, thats all they got to go on. Orton was getting crazy reactions, he's now the champion. The fans as a whole obviously aren't tired of him. Same for Cena. You have detractors, but everyone does, and its not enough for WWE to even take a bit of notice, no matter how many times you go on about nobody caring.

People react to Cena. Big wow. Half of them react BECAUSE THEY ARE TIRED OF HIM! It doesnt matter if Cena's matches are the most reacted to. If he has such a high percentage of boos as a top face, thats a bad thing. Fans vociferously booing a face is a good thing? Since when? Because fans get up for the matches? What does it matter if no one buys the show? What does it matter if they change the channel?

Orton survived at least because he somewhat reinvented himself and became relevant, and WWE allowed him to turn which freshened him up. I was tired of Batista too until he turned heel and became awesome. They haven't done that with Cena, their main go to guy, and until they do, Cena is going to do more hurting than helping. It doesn't matter if Cena is pushing a good amount of merch now, because it's quite obvious that with a few minor tweaks, he could get the support of 100% of the audience, and in turn could sell a lot more.

And I don't have to say nobody cares. Look at the buyrates. Look at the ratings. Continue thinking oh it's UFC. Oh wrestling is in a down trend. Oh it's the bad economy. Yes, those are factors. Big ones even. But the fact is that WWE is not giving fans a reason to care. They don't have to pay to see Raw, but even in the off season the ratings sucked. They can still pop a huge rating every once in a while when something special comes along, so that shows that people are willing to watch. They just don't stay week to week because they just don't care.