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Thread: UFC - Ultimate Fighting Championship

  1. #9301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    She's fought people you have heard of but I can't say they were "better". MMAmath for example. It took Ronda 20 seconds to beat Bethe. It took Holly 3 rounds. Ronda beat Miesha Tate's ass twice in a row, finished her twice. Holly got choked out by someone who hadn't finished a fight in 4 years. Holly killed Ronda.

    Your stance, and it's the same a lot of people take in this argument, is that because you know more fighters at 135 than you do at 145, that somehow means they're "exponentially" better.

    You honestly think Cyborg would have any issue with the women Holm has beat? You've admitted in the past she'd kill Ronda. So then we have who? Bethe? Cyborg would eat her alive. Raquel? I doubt she'd last 3 rounds and it sure wouldn't be a split decision. Marion Reneau? Give me a break.

    And then if you just say "everyone she's fought", well prior to the UFC she fought absolute nobodies other than Jan Finney. The losses Holm suffered. Tate would die. GDR was so fucking scared to fight Cyborg she was willing to relinquish her championship, first time anyone has ever done that, just to avoid a fight. Bullet would die. She's more of a 125er than a 135er. The reality is that the fact Cyborg murders everyone she's fought with virtual ease is why she'll almost always be the favorite regardless if you knew her opponents or not.


    Again, you're taking the approach that because you know the person they must be better.


    No, she's fought better competition. Inarguable. And not sure what MMAth has to do with anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post


    No, she's fought better competition. Inarguable. And not sure what MMAth has to do with anything.
    Don't play stupid.

    I just broke down in detail why you're opinion is flawed. Please explain the criteria you use to gauge talent. Buyrates?

  3. #9303
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    I didn't read most of it; your posting style is flawed. In fact I stopped at "you just haven't heard of them". No, I have, and I'm aware that there's a monumental difference between Rousey/Tate/Shevchenko and Evinger/Lansberg/Smith. Your opinion here is simply wrong. I am glad Cyborg's finally getting a noteworthy opponent though, she deserves it.

  4. #9304
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    Marloes Coenen and Gina Carano were very good female fighters for the time, other than that there isn't much on Cyborg's resume. Yamanaka was 12-1 when she fought Cyborg but I honestly have no clue how good she was. She went to the decision with GDR in the following fight at least. Not Cyborgs fault though, competition is scarce at FFW and Ronda ran down to 135 to avoid her in Strikeforce. Too bad that fight never happened either in SF or the UFC, that fight would have been massive pre Holly Holm shin bone.

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    Ftr I wasn't blaming Cyborg, just pointing out the obvious and noting this is Cyborg's first true test since Gina Carano ten years ago. Similarly to DJ's situation at Flyweight there simply isn't much viable competition at Women's 145 compared to 135. Interestingly enough ND also pulled the "you just haven't heard of them/drawing power doesn't mean anything" card when trying to argue that DJ hadn't fought weaker competition when compared to his p4p counterparts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    Ftr I wasn't blaming Cyborg, just pointing out the obvious and noting this is Cyborg's first true test since Gina Carano ten years ago. Similarly to DJ's situation at Flyweight there simply isn't much viable competition at Women's 145 compared to 135. Interestingly enough ND also pulled the "you just haven't heard of them/drawing power doesn't mean anything" card when trying to argue that DJ hadn't fought weaker competition when compared to his p4p counterparts.
    Again. What makes them better than who Cyborg beat? 1 example Mark. Just 1 real example.

    There, was that simple enough?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OD50 View Post
    Marloes Coenen and Gina Carano were very good female fighters for the time, other than that there isn't much on Cyborg's resume. Yamanaka was 12-1 when she fought Cyborg but I honestly have no clue how good she was. She went to the decision with GDR in the following fight at least. Not Cyborgs fault though, competition is scarce at FFW and Ronda ran down to 135 to avoid her in Strikeforce. Too bad that fight never happened either in SF or the UFC, that fight would have been massive pre Holly Holm shin bone.
    What makes Bethe better than Evinger for example?

    Again. Too many think because someone is more well known theyre automatically better.

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    Nobody thinks that, that's just something you made up. Holm has fought UFC champions. Cyborg has not. Her resume includes by far the better competition. It's not a debate whatsoever. Once again you are letting your fanboyism get in the way of addressing points rationally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    Nobody thinks that, that's just something you made up. Holm has fought UFC champions. Cyborg has not. Her resume includes by far the better competition. It's not a debate whatsoever. Once again you are letting your fanboyism get in the way of addressing points rationally.
    Holm beat 1 UFC champion. Who you've gone above and beyond to claim was dogshit...If your one example is she beat someone you dont even think was a good fighter then I guess we have to accept that.

    Your hatred toward Cyborg always brings out the same claims from you.

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    The argument is who has fought better competition. Keep up.

    I don't hate Cyborg. Im glad she's finally facing someone decent and she might win. But objectively speaking she has fought weaker competition than Holly. Not up for debate.

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    Holly hasn't fought anyone with a fraction of that muffin top. Nor has she fought anyone that defended punches like that. Total embarrassment for a UFC title fight.

  12. #9312
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    So Ronda has great striking? Bethe? Raquel?

    Still waiting to read your criteria. Again....your constant disrespect toward Cyborg clouds your judgement.

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    Lol, wow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    Lol, wow.
    Hey brother, I know you got at least something other than muffin top as a reason.

    Man that striking defense of Rousey was beautiful.

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    Haha yes, Tonya Evinger is a much better fighter than Rousey. She could beat her and Tate at the same time while blindfolded probably. Who needs to waste time getting into decent fight shape when you have those kind of skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    So Ronda has great striking? Bethe? Raquel?

    Still waiting to read your criteria. Again....your constant disrespect toward Cyborg clouds your judgement.
    Raquel Pennington has excellent boxing for her weight class. Boxed Miesha up to a UD.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    Haha yes, Tonya Evinger is a much better fighter than Rousey. She could beat her and Tate at the same time while blindfolded probably. Who needs to waste time getting into decent fight shape when you have those kind of skills.
    Lol where was that implied? You said Tonya had shit striking. I pointed out several fighters Holm fought that you claim are better than anyone Cyborg killed...

    Raquel has weak stand up. Miesha is all ground and gets lit up in every fight.

    The reality is Cyborg destroyed all of her opponents. Just like Jon Jones destroyed 205.

    Again....zero criteria provided as to how you've came to the conclusion Holms fought anyone that much better than Cyborgs list. You're also the 1st person to say horrible shit about her so its not a shocker.

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    Ahaha. Jones fought comparable competition to Cyborg now did he?

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    Ahaha. Jones fought comparable competition to Cyborg now did he?
    Yep that's exactly what I said.....

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    You compared them, after arguing that Cyborg has fought equal competition to Holly. Cyborg is a can crusher dude. Take the fan blinders off.

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    Guess this shite card did not deliver. Decisions across the main card lol. And co-main Bec Rawlings lost. UFC should be ashamed of themselves for this card.

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    GO ON LAD Fanny Batter's Avatar
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    That's the problem sometimes with fight cards built for the local audience with venues set a long time in advance - if there's nobody in good form going in then you end up with your local guys in rehab fights against virtual no marks. Say if Jake Matthews had won his last fight and Dan Kelly had beaten Brunson, there'd have been able to put them against decent guys, particularly Kelly. Maybe they would have done Kelly vs. Romero or Jacare or something. USADA and poor form for legends left Hunt with a no name opponent - Hunt vs. Arlovski would have made sense if Andrei had beat Tybura, then Arlovski vs. Werdum 2 once Hunt pulled out. Tyson Pedro could've had a top 10 fight if he'd beaten Latifi. It just ended up shit because Australia has no fighters with any momentum.

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    Another thing is that local crowds don't necessarily need the entire card filled with locals. They can get away with that in Brazil as there are lots of Brazilian fighters, many in good form and with relative name value but I'm sure this crowd would have appreciated a normal fight card with just a few Australians on it. Bec Rawlings would have been a fine hometown curtain jerker but when she's in the co-main event because of the total lack of recognizable fighters there is a problem.

    Also 4 fighters missed weight. Bush league city. In no way could this card have boosted UFC's reputation or popularity there, which was the entire point of the event. The whole thing reeks of complacency and everyone that bought a ticket, made plans and fought traffic to attend should feel rightfully jipped.

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    The card was super weak. I swear to God the last 2 fights it felt like I was already in the afterlife.

    TBH, I was more into Werdum and the boomerang memes.

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    They're calling him Werdumarang on Sherdog. During a pre-fight interview he was asked about the incident and said he thought the boomerang would just come back to him but it didn't work. Lol Werdum. Honestly that was the only highlight of this Australia visit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    They're calling him Werdumarang on Sherdog. During a pre-fight interview he was asked about the incident and said he thought the boomerang would just come back to him but it didn't work. Lol Werdum. Honestly that was the only highlight of this Australia visit.
    LMFAO. Did you read some of the articles in Australia about it? Nobody was taking it serious.

    And you're 110% correct. That was the only highlight and it was so fucking stupid. All those decisions, no real wars of any kind. Bec Rawlins couldn't even take a soul.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    I'd order the shit out of it if I was the ppv ordering type and I've seen more fights than just Conor 1 and 2.
    come on, you actually think Woodley vs. Diaz would look different than RDA vs. Diaz? or Rory Mac vs Diaz? I think Woodley massacres him in a boring one sided fight which would devalue Diaz' stock and ruin a Diaz/McGregor LW 3 fight. And I say this as a huge Diaz fan. I just don't think he has enough for an elite WW

    Woodley is a smart fighter and would chop those legs apart and batter Diaz on the ground. There is no way he would keep himself in harms way long enough on the feet to get into those stockton punch scenarios where he can get overwhelmed by those volume pitter patter exchangers, and I would like to believe Woodley is too strong and educated enough to hold his own on the floor. I just cannot see a scenario where Diaz can win in any way shape or form

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    I have no doubt Woodley would win (unless he keeps it standing, you never know in a fight) but losing to Woodley would in no way ruin the appeal of the Conor rubber match. There would be a big fight feel leading to the ppv and that's something Woodley desperately needs.

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    As if the 205lb division needed any more hiccups number 1 contender Volkan Oezdimir has been arrested on charges of assault and battery.

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    205 has died a slow death. Jones was the last guy to really carry it and he's fucked up left and right. I just don't see anyone that appealing, including Cormier. Good fighters, I just don't really care about the division. The UFC LHW division was never really stacked until Pride folded. Then we had guys who were names but had been through Hell. So we really only got about a year or 2 out of the likes of Lil Nog, Shogun, Rampage, Wandy. Then they start losing to the boring dudes like Ryan Bader or guys nobody really cares about like OSP.

    I mean, and this is true, Rashad Evas was one of the biggest draws the UFC had in his prime. I was reading something where it said he was like in the top 10 at one point which is pretty good when you think of how many fighters people were paying to see just a few years ago.

    PS-who was the asshole who put a tag "ND hates Americans" lol. Fuck you.

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  32. #9332
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    Diaz boxing coach Richard Perez says the UFC should pay "Nathan" 15 million to fight Woodley.

    You know it's impossible right now to tell what kind of draw Nate is when the only fights he's had that generated any real money were his last 2. Against the biggest draw ever.

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    He's somewhat of a draw (people know the Diaz Bros)but he's only worth his asking price when Conor is the other part of the equation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    He's somewhat of a draw (people know the Diaz Bros)but he's only worth his asking price when Conor is the other part of the equation.
    Yeah I mean if I see he's on the card I'm excited. Am I $15 million excited? naw.

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    Nate's begun to understand economics. If a PPV is $55, his presence in a big fight would take a show from 200k to maybe 700k. 500k x $55 = $27.5m. If we account the extra $12.5m to adding to Tyron's purse and the increased marketing then I think 15 mil is fair enough.

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    Tough to say something like that without anything to really go off of. Yes, v. McGregor he had 2 stellar ppv buyrates. What about before? Never headlined a ppv. He's headlined a couple FN cards over the last 8 years the most recent being the forgettable and pointless trilogy fight with Maynard back in 2013.

    I think the big problem for Nate is he's trying to be his brother. There was a time where I think Nate was on his way to being "the respectable Diaz brother". He had his moments but for the most part he seemed a lot more humble and less bitchy. And he was active. Now he barely fights and when he has a fight he might not make weight, he'll definitely bitch like Nick did his entire career about pay even if he's getting paid more than any other promotion would ever pay him.

    So idk. 15 million for a dude who is only a real draw against the biggest draw of all time? Tough sell. This kind of shit is why Nate wasn't able to capitalize on his budding fame with McGregor. Had he stayed active instead of holding out for an imaginary trilogy fight that's not looking like it's going to happen anytime soon, he MIGHT have proven that he's worth that kind of crazy money. But he's no GSP. He's no Brock. He's no Jones. He's definitely not McGregor.

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    Senior Batter is right Nash. Nate's involvement with Tyron will undoubtedly line Woodley's pockets like never before as Woodley is a horribly drawing champion. Nate should capitalize to his fullest potential here, but I see both sides of the argument and Nate Diaz hasn't broken a million buys with anyone other than Conor. Honestly I'm glad the pressure of promoting him isn't falling on me.

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    Nate is easily the smarter Diaz bro considering his ability to hold out and angle for a payday. Compared to Nick who griped that nobody taught him how to buy a house during the GSP build.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    Senior Batter is right Nash. Nate's involvement with Tyron will undoubtedly line Woodley's pockets like never before as Woodley is a horribly drawing champion. Nate should capitalize to his fullest potential here, but I see both sides of the argument and Nate Diaz hasn't broken a million buys with anyone other than Conor. Honestly I'm glad the pressure of promoting him isn't falling on me.
    I wasn't disagreeing that Woodley would benefit. I just disagreed with the idea Diaz is a huge draw. Theie fight isn't doing 700k buys like he suggested. The less active he is the less people will care. No matter who he fights.

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    Regardless of what happens in the main event, this event has got to be considered a big success. 2 big wins for the Chinese guys on the main card, 2 more on the prelims (including that NINETEEN year old), some good finishes, and that Shabit guy looking like the absolute real deal. It's flown by too. 11 fights in just over 4 hours. An FS1 show would have taken 2 hours longer to get through already.

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    Gastelum fucking wrecked Bisping with that left hand. Big power. Mike somehow managed to earn more money, fame, wins and respect than pretty much any other UFC fighter, not bad for a guy with pretty much no effective offensive ground game and little power. Shows how far balls, heart and a bit of lip can take you. Fair fucks to him. Gets to go out being the first man to have 30 UFC fights in front of a home crowd hopefully. Agree with the Machida suggestion, smart fight to make.

    Gastelum will always have discipline problems I think. He's bulked up a bit so can see him missing weight even at 185. Talent-wise though he can beat anyone at 170 or 185 on his day.

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    Poor Bisping. While he does have the late notice excuse that's two times going to sleep in short concession. I'd love to see him fight again but not at the expense of him going 3 for 3. Loads of respect for stepping in the way he did but I would have preferred a more competitive showing.

    Kelvin Gastelum is one of the p4p best fighters on the roster in my view. Such a shame someone with that kind of undeniable God-given talent can't keep his diet in check.

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    Manny Pacquiao has called out Conor McGregor for a boxing match in 2018. Probably going to happen.

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    GO ON LAD Fanny Batter's Avatar
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    Pacquiao is chatting shit. He doesn't do big numbers anymore and his market value will have plummeted from the Jeff Horn loss. Fights in the UFC will do bigger numbers, particularly when networks won't get behind Pacquiao because of the homophobic remarks and his damp squib fight with Mayweather.

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    De La Hoya calling him out now too.

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    GO ON LAD Fanny Batter's Avatar
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    Fuck it, chuck Roberto Duran in there against him.

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    Pac-Man or DLH vs McGregor would make more money than any ufc fight they could make.

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    I don't know. I think both MMA and boxing fans barely handled the McGregor-Mayweather fight, I don't know if they'll buy that shit a 2nd-3rd time around. To be honest, since that farce of a fight, I don't really read or hear anyone really wanting to see McGregor step back into boxing. If there is any chatter it's all bullshitting around the camp fire type talk.

    Bisping........How did he even get approved to fight? And then they interviewed after getting dusted. Kelvin was like "I should be next to fight Whitaker I just beat the former champ"......GSP v. Whitaker is going down. GSP is the real champ. It's in his contract that if he did beat Bisping he has to defend against Whitaker.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    There's a story floating around that McGregor was wasted at a bar in Dublin and smacked up someone.

    http://www.bjpenn.com/mma-news/video...ht-last-night/

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    GO ON LAD Fanny Batter's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's a possibility a De La Hoya fight would draw because it would on paper be competitive and he's still a pretty big presence in the sport. The mainstream sports media won't get behind Pacquiao anymore, that fight wouldn't do more than Diaz, GSP or Woodley. If Khabib finishes Barboza too, that becomes a big seller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanny Batter View Post
    Yeah, it's a possibility a De La Hoya fight would draw because it would on paper be competitive and he's still a pretty big presence in the sport. The mainstream sports media won't get behind Pacquiao anymore, that fight wouldn't do more than Diaz, GSP or Woodley. If Khabib finishes Barboza too, that becomes a big seller.

    Dana White said there is a good chance that Conor doesn't fight in the UFC anymore. He said he just made 100 mill + and while he is entertaining offers and trying to negotiate, it just doesn't make sense for Conor to fight for the UFC can offer him, despite Conor being worth it.

    He also shit on GSP, saying GSP is essentially a pussy if he relinquishes his belt (GSP said he felt bloated and had cramps in the fight, is now entertaining the idea that he won't return to MW and will go down to WW), he said a GSP vs. Conor proposed fight is stupid, and that anyone vs. Conor is a draw, so no wonder someone from GSP's camp would want it. It is very obvious Dana does not like GSP.

    It comes down to legacy vs. money for Conor, really. Defend your title for ~20 mil, or go have another circus boxing fight for maybe ~100 mil?

    good problems to have

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    So dope.

    It might be just me but I see a little Pat Barry in Big E from New Day.

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    The pic of her stone-face next to Holly is on it's way to becoming a pretty legendary internet meme.

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    She's bad as fuck. I had my doubts going into the JJ fight but damn, BAM!

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    Is Connor sleeping with the fishes yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by virmicious View Post
    Is Connor sleeping with the fishes yet?
    haha idk but it makes for a great Liam Neeson type movie doesn't it?

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    I have barely kept up on TUF 26 but holy fucking shit. So the top 1 and 2 seeds lost in the semi-finals, arguably the most experience and well rounded of the bunch. So the 12th (Sijara Eubanks) and 14th seed (Nico Montoya) were going to fight for the FLW championship but something happened with Eubanks so now Roxie (1st seed) gets her spot.

    This is crazy. The next champion was going to be someone who hadn't even had more than 5 pro fights and they had shit records as well it's not like they're undefeated. But hey, you get wins over the top 2 seeds that's good enough I guess. This whole roster at this weight for this show, I just don't get the point when you have plenty of women at 115 and 135 on the roster that could make the weight.

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    2-2 vs 3-2 for a world title. What the fudge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    2-2 vs 3-2 for a world title. What the fudge.
    Well now you have Roxie in there which isn't exactly any better. But damn this tournament was a joke if you ask me. Also, I heard that PVZ was out there saying she was going to face the winner of the tournament and that's why she bailed on the Jessica Eye fight. Now PVZ is fighting someone else that is making their UFC debut.

    I'll say this, I understand why WMMA gets shit on especially under the UFC banner. Yeah I've argued certain divisions are forming so we have to give it time but I mean damn, I thought it was off that Holly on a losing streak was getting a shot at the 145 belt but I understood WHY, just didn't seem right.

    125 though is different because we've already had fights at that weight so why aren't established UFC fighters going after the belt.

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    It made sense when Holly fought for the 145 belt. Cyborg was MIA, who else would have been worthy to fight Germaine de Randamie (lol) for the belt?

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    Fallon Fox

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    GO ON LAD Fanny Batter's Avatar
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    The number one ranked flyweight (and Invicta champion) wasn't even in the tournament! I think the consesus is that the girls who entered that are ones that either can't cut to 115 or cannot hang in the UFC at 135. Whereas I expect the division to soon become full of UFC calibre girls tired of cutting to 115 and UFC calibre girls who can shift the extra 10lbs and move down. Gadelha, Calderwood, Shevchenko etc. So the "top 16 flyweights in the world" will all reside outside of the top 10 this time next year.

    It wouldn't surprise me if the UFC was cynical enough to try and position Paige as a title contender due to the divisions immediate lack of depth. It would be shit though. She'd just get her head kicked in by Shevchenko or Gadelha straight after.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I have barely kept up on TUF 26 but holy fucking shit. So the top 1 and 2 seeds lost in the semi-finals, arguably the most experience and well rounded of the bunch. So the 12th (Sijara Eubanks) and 14th seed (Nico Montoya) were going to fight for the FLW championship but something happened with Eubanks so now Roxie (1st seed) gets her spot.

    This is crazy. The next champion was going to be someone who hadn't even had more than 5 pro fights and they had shit records as well it's not like they're undefeated. But hey, you get wins over the top 2 seeds that's good enough I guess. This whole roster at this weight for this show, I just don't get the point when you have plenty of women at 115 and 135 on the roster that could make the weight.
    Was bummed that Barb Honchak lost, I think she is (or was) the best fighter on there. She's clearly getting a bit old and hadn't fought since 2014 though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    It made sense when Holly fought for the 145 belt. Cyborg was MIA, who else would have been worthy to fight Germaine de Randamie (lol) for the belt?
    Nobody. But in reality yes it did make sense because I bet they wanted a star to be the champ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fanny Batter View Post
    The number one ranked flyweight (and Invicta champion) wasn't even in the tournament! I think the consesus is that the girls who entered that are ones that either can't cut to 115 or cannot hang in the UFC at 135. Whereas I expect the division to soon become full of UFC calibre girls tired of cutting to 115 and UFC calibre girls who can shift the extra 10lbs and move down. Gadelha, Calderwood, Shevchenko etc. So the "top 16 flyweights in the world" will all reside outside of the top 10 this time next year.

    It wouldn't surprise me if the UFC was cynical enough to try and position Paige as a title contender due to the divisions immediate lack of depth. It would be shit though. She'd just get her head kicked in by Shevchenko or Gadelha straight after.
    I was a little shocked she wasn't in it because of the last TUF women's tournament wasn't Carla Esparza the Invicta champ? Or maybe she had just lost it I don't recall.

    What turned me off about the whole thing was the idea that the first champ was going to A-be someone that wasn't very good and B-not very experienced. Reminded me of the last tournament, you had Thug Rose with 3 fights make it to the final. But I guess that's what you have to settle for when the talent pool is what it is for women at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by OD50 View Post
    Was bummed that Barb Honchak lost, I think she is (or was) the best fighter on there. She's clearly getting a bit old and hadn't fought since 2014 though.
    The fact she did so well should tell you something about the level of talent they had on TUF lol

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    GO ON LAD Fanny Batter's Avatar
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    The strawweight one had quite a lot of depth though. Gadelha was consesus #2 and was absent, but Esparza, Penne, Calderwood and Torres probably rounded out the top 5 at the time. This tournament didn't have that. Should have opened it like they did the men's flyweights - lineal champion (Invicta) Jennifer Maia, the undefeated girl that's #1 contender in Invicta, dropping down from 135 Shevchenko and coming up from 115 (with a win at flyweight in the UFC already Calderwood.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    I just mean depth overall.

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    So Roxanne Modaferri or whatever is the most unathletic and uncoordinated person to ever compete for a world title. This season was a joke. You had a woman who can't make the weight make it to the end, she'll surely get a fight or two at 135lbs and probably lose.

    I'm with Professor Batter here, should have handled this like they did with men's Flyweight. 4 person tourney of proven fighters that can make the weight. The competitors this season were garbage and the fact that they were involved in a tournament for a world title makes said title look like a joke. World champion Nicco Montana has at least a guaranteed co-main event slot now and she'll likely be destroyed while still going down in history. Smh.

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    And in a big fat fucking shocker to absolutely nobody ...

    BREAKING: Georges St-Pierre tells @Kara_Wagland: "I'm not sure if I compete that I will go back to 185. I don't think so"
    twitter.com/aaronbronsteter

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    No wonder DW is so heated. I heard in his contract he is supposed to fight Whitaker.

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    After the way DW handled GSP's retirement and put him on blast immediately following his war with pre-USADA Johny Hendricks, good for Georges.

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    I have to say Dana White is pretty scummy toward a lot of fighters that have carried the company at various points. GSP being one of the main ones.

  73. #9373
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    Absolutely.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    You know I could understand his beef with Tito, his beef with Couture to an extent. But what really woke me up was the way he treated Jon Jones when they had to cancel that UFC event because of everyone pulling out and he wouldn't fight Chael....Just completely threw him under the bus, had Iceman pile on.

    I will say this, I had to pinch myself when they pulled McGregor from UFC 200. I just thought out of anyone, McGregor would have been allowed to skate doing media.

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    The Jones example was by far the worst. Hendo and Chael tried to pull a fast one yet everyone blamed Jon for saying screw that.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    I had no idea that Sarah Kaufman A-hadn't fought since 2015 and B-wasn't in the UFC. She's a solid fighter, only 32, surprised they didn't try to keep her if she even wanted to stay.

  77. #9377
    GO ON LAD Fanny Batter's Avatar
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    Dana is a sociopath. Remember when he said the AKA fighters would "never ever" fight for the company again because they thought the video game contracts were shoddy? Man is a nutcase.

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    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    I just don't get the direction the UFC has gone. Reebok, selling the company, the weird sponsorship clauses prior to Reebok that required sponsors to give X amount of dollars toward the UFC for allowing fighters to wear certain brands. Too many fight cards, too many fighters. I guess that just goes with the growth of a sport but Jesus man it feels like if you're someone who won 3 fights you're signed to the UFC.

    I was watching this past Friday, they had some wannabe McGregor fuck and they were all hyping him up and he was looking shit. Sage Northcutt type shit. Fuck him too.

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    There's a huge upside to Sage Northcutt. Good looking kid who is already a multifight UFC veteran.

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    Miocic vs Ngannou and DC vs Oezdemir both being targeted for UFC 220. Good idea pairing them on the same card.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    After the way DW handled GSP's retirement and put him on blast immediately following his war with pre-USADA Johny Hendricks, good for Georges.
    Dana could hold a press conference cutting up GSP dolls and wiping his ass with the bits and pieces, and of course he'd be a giant titty baby for doing so, but none of even that would change the fact that the Georges/Bisping MW title fight and fallout is a sporting farce and everyone involved should be ashamed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    Miocic vs Ngannou and DC vs Oezdemir both being targeted for UFC 220. Good idea pairing them on the same card.
    This combination is the absolute tits.

  82. #9382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I just don't get the direction the UFC has gone. Reebok, selling the company, the weird sponsorship clauses prior to Reebok that required sponsors to give X amount of dollars toward the UFC for allowing fighters to wear certain brands. Too many fight cards, too many fighters. I guess that just goes with the growth of a sport but Jesus man it feels like if you're someone who won 3 fights you're signed to the UFC.

    I was watching this past Friday, they had some wannabe McGregor fuck and they were all hyping him up and he was looking shit. Sage Northcutt type shit. Fuck him too.
    Sean O'Malley. I kind of dig him, entertaining Kid. Watch his fight on DWTNC. 👍🏻 I think he's 8-0 or 9-0.

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    I don't look at the GSP/Bisping fight as a farce. I think it was a shortsighted way of doing business as it denied Robert Whitaker the opportunity to make his name over Bisping, but short term the numbers don't lie. As long as they're in the PPV business the model ensures they'll look to make the most money. They did it. If they can get a killer deal out of their TV negotiations then hopefully that will reduce the need for quick-fix "blockbuster" PPV shows.

    The content saturation is a big problem. I'm a big fan obviously but there's got to be close to a dozen shows I haven't touched this year alone. I'm not watching 6 hours of no name fights to get to a Marcin Tybura main event. I guess the prolification of Youtube clips helps but it's hard for guys to gain hype when they're thrown in the middle of shit events.

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    UFC 217 was also top-to-bottom maybe the best show of the year. "Sporting farce" is harsh, and even if you believe it was Dana still put the card together and made everyone involved a shit ton of money. That's good for the fighters.

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    Let's also take into account fighters seem to be injured a lot more or at least not fighting as injured as they would have years ago. Also, some of the bigger names have kind of vanished all at once. GSP, Jon Jones, Ronda Rousey, McGregor. You got little bursts of Jones and Rousey. Jones totally fucked up I mean come on guy where's your fucking head at? Rousey going WWE now. GSP was gone for awhile and nobody really was able to pick up where he left off at 170 like he did when Hughes fell off. McGregor's still the man but I mean he's set, anything now is purely from a martial artist mental state of mind.

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    I'd agree that calling it a farce is a little harsh. But it comes down to what kind of model are they crafting, what kind of story are they selling, and is there any consistency/integrity to it.

    Since rules and regulations went into place ages ago that allowed the sport back on PPV and tv they've adopted a king of the mountain model where guys scratch and claw their way to the top; where it's incredibly difficult to get there and even more difficult to stay there, where dues are paid to prove ones worth every step of the way, and where we have the pleasure to watch these matchups unfold with the benefit of knowing that every single elevation is earned. At the highest level of this climb stakes are paramount because of the grueling journey. This makes titles in a sport as unforgiving and seemingly random at times as mma so valuable, it's the gold standard backing to getting a belt wrapped around your waist. You may lose that belt on your first defense and never touch it again, but your entire path was legitimately justified and cemented for having come out the end of it rightfully on top even once.

    I know, I'm a wacko radical purist, guilty. And GSP/Bisping is hardly the only example to harp on of this happening. But it does seem like with fan resentment at an all time high (and not over just this kind of thing at all either, mind), and of all the myriad things turning people away from tuning in, that something so subversively destructive like this that can start to make even hardcore fans not buy into the whole idea of what makes this thing worthwhile, like FB said, is shortsighted at best and incredibly negligent and reckless at worst. This isn't a massive negative press story like doping or WarMachine drama or Jon Jones drama or what have you, but I think in a sense it's actually worse. I think this kind of thing is going to eat away at the integrity of the sport with less attention paid to it like a burrowing virus instead of an inflammatory water cooler talk headline. This devalues the entire structure right in front of everyone's very eyes with one hand and no one wants to see it for the spectacle getting dangled in front of them in the other. And when that structure is caved in completely and irreparably it'll be quite the bummer.

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    The flipside to all of that is both hardcore and casual fans go out of their way for fights like GSP/Bisping more than they would say Dillashaw v. Mighty Mouse. That's a huge fight for the hardest of the hardcore. That fight isn't drawing more than GSP v. Bisping. And the same hardcore fans who all would pony up for TJ v. DJ, they're the same ones along with the casuals shelling out the loot to see GSP v. Bisping.

    And you know me, I'm very much a purist but not just a "go by the ranking with every single fight" purist because it's never always been that way. Even when it was regulated more. Go watch Pride. Go watch UFC with Randy Couture getting a shot @ Liddell with 1 win or 0 wins in forever to get a HW title shot against Tim Sylvia.

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    And that whole first paragraph would fall under the shortsighted umbrella. Sure, it makes money in the short term ... but at what actual cost.

    Not saying every single matchup must be 8 vs 7 and 6 vs 5 and 4 vs 3 and so on either, but ignoring the earned queue entirely..

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    Quote Originally Posted by percussion13 View Post
    And that whole first paragraph would fall under the shortsighted umbrella. Sure, it makes money in the short term ... but at what actual cost.

    Not saying every single matchup must be 8 vs 7 and 6 vs 5 and 4 vs 3 and so on either, but ignoring the earned queue entirely..
    But the cash grab fights are few and far between don't you agree?

    And I'll be honest....What was truly wrong with GSP, the greatest WW of all time, coming back and moving up to fight the champ? Would we be negative toward Jon Jones coming back after a couple years off and challenge Stipe right out the gate? HELLLL NO. Would we have issues with GSP coming back and getting a shot at Tony Ferguson @ 155? Whitaker was going to be out for awhile, plus he was the interim champ not even the real champ.

    What I have issues with are Nate Diaz getting a title shot against Tyron Woodley. Or another Diaz-McGregor fight, especially for the belt when Diaz is 50/50 at 155 as it is. Again, these kind of fights where it's on some WWE shit, they're not common. They all tend to revolve a Diaz though if you think about it lol.

    I will say this...Bisping v. Hendo was ridiculous as well. Again, zero issue in all honesty with GSP getting a shot because he's put in the work to warrant that kind of fight. He's not Nate Diaz, he's not Nick Diaz, he's not even Joey Diaz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    But the cash grab fights are few and far between don't you agree?

    And I'll be honest....What was truly wrong with GSP, the greatest WW of all time, coming back and moving up to fight the champ? Would we be negative toward Jon Jones coming back after a couple years off and challenge Stipe right out the gate? HELLLL NO. Would we have issues with GSP coming back and getting a shot at Tony Ferguson @ 155? Whitaker was going to be out for awhile, plus he was the interim champ not even the real champ.

    What I have issues with are Nate Diaz getting a title shot against Tyron Woodley. Or another Diaz-McGregor fight, especially for the belt when Diaz is 50/50 at 155 as it is. Again, these kind of fights where it's on some WWE shit, they're not common. They all tend to revolve a Diaz though if you think about it lol.

    I will say this...Bisping v. Hendo was ridiculous as well. Again, zero issue in all honesty with GSP getting a shot because he's put in the work to warrant that kind of fight. He's not Nate Diaz, he's not Nick Diaz, he's not even Joey Diaz.
    - On the scale of the volume of fights they have entirely, sure. If we're judging the magnitude of those particular fights though..

    - I answered that with several words above. And yes, I wouldn't want to see Jones take on Stipe for the HW title or GSP take on Ferg for the LW title without beating another HW or LW in the rankings first.

    - Agreed.

    I'm aware I'm in the minority and not going to change anyone's mind here so going on and on ad nauseam about it will probably become boring and tiresome. Just wanted to give a bit more expanded thought on why I chose to call it a farce. I can certainly agree to disagree and say that this is just my perspective and how myself and some other fans feel. No biggie.

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    And as you can tell I'm just as much of a purist.

    Did you have an issue with McGregor v. Alvarez? Do you have an issue with Mighty Mouse v. TJ Dillashaw?

    See, I get the fans who don't think what you did in another division matters. But they're the same fans watching these fights just as eagerly as the rest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    And as you can tell I'm just as much of a purist.

    Did you have an issue with McGregor v. Alvarez? Do you have an issue with Mighty Mouse v. TJ Dillashaw?

    See, I get the fans who don't think what you did in another division matters. But they're the same fans watching these fights just as eagerly as the rest.
    The fan in me of simply watching fights for the entertainment that they are has no problem. The fan in me of wanting to see the value of the earned hierarchy sustained does.

    And I addressed the last sentence in my awfully long worded post above..

    This devalues the entire structure right in front of everyone's very eyes with one hand and no one wants to see it for the spectacle getting dangled in front of them in the other
    ..of course many fight fans will watch anyway, they're fight fans. But as I've stated and stated I believe there's an erosion taking place in the meantime. Instead of having a huge build based on the earned value in big fights people are tuning in for the spectacle of immediate gratification and the former is far more structurally sound and sustainable than the latter.

    They're adopting the WWE method instead of a foundationally strong sports method, and we've seen how that house of cards has worked for that company. I'd simply hate to see the same thing play out for MMA in the states and I'm afraid WME neither knows nor cares.

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    I just think, and this is a good conversation btw, that when you're someone of the caliber of GSP, Jon Jones, McGregor, you can go up or down without having a non-title fight. Nate Diaz....no. Nick Diaz...no. They don't really do anything. They need that GSP or that McGregor to have a big buyrate. If they were dominant champions who have cleaned out a division to a certain extent, I see zero issue. How many times do we see this in boxing? A lot.

    I'm just glad it doesn't happen that often in MMA. Can you even name 10 fights that fall under the GSP-Bisping category? SUPER FIGHTS as we used to call them. I didn't need Dan Henderson to have a non-title fight before facing the winner of Rampage/Liddell. That was the same weight class but not the same promotion. Justin Gaethje didn't get to come in and immediately fight for the title for example.

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    That, to me, just sounds like an unnecessarily arbitrary line simply for the sake of an immediately gratifying cash grab that inevitably lends itself to the slippery slope of gray area and terrible business decisions. ie Bisping/Hendo, Bisping/GSP, letting Conor do whatever he wants.

    If a Jon Jones or GSP or whomever are good enough for a title shot in another weight class they're certainly good enough to beat a contender there first, ala Anderson, and not only prove their commitment to earning that other title but to also build the appetite even further for the ultimate payoff.

    Do we want this company, and so effectively this sport, to play checkers or chess?

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    Quote Originally Posted by percussion13 View Post
    That, to me, just sounds like an unnecessarily arbitrary line simply for the sake of an immediately gratifying cash grab that inevitably lends itself to the slippery slope of gray area and terrible business decisions. ie Bisping/Hendo, Bisping/GSP, letting Conor do whatever he wants.

    If a Jon Jones or GSP or whomever are good enough for a title shot in another weight class they're certainly good enough to beat a contender there first, ala Anderson, and not only prove their commitment to earning that other title but to also build the appetite even further for the ultimate payoff.

    Do we want this company, and so effectively this sport, to play checkers or chess?
    I disagree because again, how many fights like GSP v. Bisping have we seen in comparison to champion v. top 3 ranked fighter? We've seen way more of the latter so I disagree that there is any kind of slippery slope.

    Trust me, I hate swallowing the reality that there is and never will be defined "bible", "blueprints" to how MMA should work. The roots of MMA has always been the same: Spectacle sport. You can't look at the NFL and go this is how it should be done because it's a totally different sport from the beginning to the present.

    See, I'm not negative toward super fights. I'm negative if someone is holding up a division but GSP v. Bisping wasn't holding up anything. Nobody was knocking at Bisping's door at this time. Rockhold? Nope. Jacare? Already lost. Whitaker? He hurt. You're right my friend, cash grab no doubt but Mizzark Hammer beat it into my head enough to see the truth. This is if anything prize fighting. You go where the money is. And sometimes it works....Holly Holm, ranked #7, challenging for the championship and she changed the game in 2 rounds for WMMA. Imagine if they went with the original fight of #1 ranked Tate v. Ronda for a 3rd go around? That was the money fight in reality, would have been a much bigger buy, but in hindsight would it have been worth it for what we got instead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    I disagree because again, how many fights like GSP v. Bisping have we seen in comparison to champion v. top 3 ranked fighter? We've seen way more of the latter so I disagree that there is any kind of slippery slope.

    Trust me, I hate swallowing the reality that there is and never will be defined "bible", "blueprints" to how MMA should work. The roots of MMA has always been the same: Spectacle sport. You can't look at the NFL and go this is how it should be done because it's a totally different sport from the beginning to the present.

    See, I'm not negative toward super fights. I'm negative if someone is holding up a division but GSP v. Bisping wasn't holding up anything. Nobody was knocking at Bisping's door at this time. Rockhold? Nope. Jacare? Already lost. Whitaker? He hurt. You're right my friend, cash grab no doubt but Mizzark Hammer beat it into my head enough to see the truth. This is if anything prize fighting. You go where the money is. And sometimes it works....Holly Holm, ranked #7, challenging for the championship and she changed the game in 2 rounds for WMMA. Imagine if they went with the original fight of #1 ranked Tate v. Ronda for a 3rd go around? That was the money fight in reality, would have been a much bigger buy, but in hindsight would it have been worth it for what we got instead?
    - I already answered that. I don't care if it were just one, the magnitude of any one is heavily subversively detrimental overall.

    - I don't care what the roots are. They can be uprooted. Huge changes were made and successful groundwork was laid out when they began adding regulations to begin compliance with the athletic commissions. Nothing previous was ever written in stone. Only since WME have come along has spectacle begun to outweigh good sustainable business sense.

    - Prize fighting and cash grabbing is why boxing is in the state it's in. I don't know about you, but I don't want MMA to follow that path. And they absolutely don't have to.

    I've said before that we can agree to disagree. And now this is becoming a bit redundant and I don't expect to change your mind or vice versa. Good chat.

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    You should care what the roots are. Trying to rewrite history to fit a narrative isn't exactly progressive. It's what is probably stunting your full understanding as to why GSP didn't need to have a tune up at 185 just to make sure he could challenge the champ.

    You saying "Bisping v. GSP, Conor getting to do whatever he wants" were bad business decisions. How so? Made a ton of money, everyone from the hardcore to the casual and every in between tuned in, I fail to see where the negatives are other than trying to predict the future that something MIGHT happen.

    When you really think about, the only fights that are making the UFC any money on a consistent basis are these type of fights because the company has oversaturated themselves with too many shows, too many fighters that nobody gives a shit about because they can't keep up. And again it all goes back to how few and far between these fights are so it's difficult to really say they're bad for business when they're the only good business being done.

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    Ok.

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    GSP has officially vacated the 185lb championship. Whitaker vs Rockhold for all the marbles at UFC 221.

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    Just glad 185 has legit marbles back on the line after Bisping/GSP's reign of VKM theatre.

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