Someone jinxed this championship fight in here, saying if one of the 2 main fights go down the card is fucked and sure enough.
I have to wonder what is up with Kelvin. Was he that pissed he lost his mind? Dude carrying around Cejudo's championship belt was fucking weird. Ringworm all over that bitch now.
I didn't realize it was Cejudo's but was wondering where the hell Kelvin got the thing. Now it makes sense.
Ill-advised move but Kelvin at least deserved some attention after Whitaker pulling out the day of his title fight. And he's still a bad dude. Assuming Rob is out for the long haul then Kelvin vs Israel for the interim belt please.
I heard he's out 6-8 weeks.Originally Posted by Mark Hammer
What I didn't like is how entitled Kelvin became. Did this kid forget about how unprofessional it was to miss weight 3 times or the fact he barely won his last fight against Jacare? He was always very humble, respectful, just didn't make sense especially with how serious the situation was. And again, why the fuck do they allow fighters to compete with ringworm and staph?????? If anything, the fight should've been called off due to Kelvin and his nasty ass.
Good point.
And where were the reserves?? This is what also happens when you have a very very weak card. The only fight I personally cared about was the Anderson fight and even that fight was an odd fight to make. Sad thing is, this is the 2nd time Whitaker had to pull out of a hometown show but damn why does he have to live so far away??!??!
Not only that but it was kind of a boring fight I thought. Looked very much like a sparring contest.
Ya, two counter strikers with tons of respect for one another's standup. No fireworks but I still find it rather enjoyable watching them try and figure the other out.
Imagine fighting your Dad that you love and he taugjt you everything.
I bet though if one of them really went for it the fight would've been over sooner than later.
Velasquez vs. Ngannou tonight then. For me, this determines DC's retirement fight. Forget about this Brock Lesnar bollocks, Vince has the capital to keep him without him taking a shellacking off Daniel Cormier, failing his drugs test and depleting his bargaining power thereafter. Cain wins tonight and the retirement match is probably Stipe 2, Jones, or JDS if he beats Black Beast. Ngannou wins though and they definitely go the AKA revenge route and have Cormier vs. Ngannou. Francis is rebuildable after the Stipe and Lewis losses. Stipe was just better that night, and he laid an egg against Beast. If he beats Cain, he's a big potential commodity again.
For me, Cain wins. He's a monster when he's on. He's got a good chin too. Never been put out cold, ridiculous recovery levels outside of the JDS loss. Those flush Kongo shots (TEN fucking years ago... jesus) where he'd take a knee then just take him down was Terminator-esque. Obviously Francis hits insanely hard and could connect early and put him out, but I like Cain's chin to hold up, find that takedown and do nasty Cain Velasquez things after that. I like him to finish it too. He's relentless once he has you down, violent. Non-stop peppering of shots until you give up your back and basically accept defeat underneath his punches. I see his pace overwhelming Ngannou by the end of the second, with Francis not coming out for the 3rd or getting mercy killed early in that round. Interesting fight.
Weird order here. Rivera vs. Sterling is the co-main really, but it's 7th fight down to give ESPN+ subscribers something I guess. I think Sterling gets his statement win in that one, he's putting it together and Rivera seems to have stood still a bit. He's the same fighter he was 3 years ago, whereas Sterling's jab, kicks and submission grappling are much improved. It's a close fight to call as Rivera is very good, but Sterling is realising that upside. Close but clear decision for Aljo for me.
The actual co-main event is Vick vs. Felder. I like the fight for it's violence. Vick is high output with a shaky chin, Felder is tough as nails but probably needs to land something big cos he doesn't throw as readily. Leaning Vick because of his jab and range, but would love to see Felder pick up a big win. Seems a great bloke.
Kron Gracie debut against Alex Cacares. Squash match. Kron is a blue chip prospect, Cacares loses to anyone decent. Should be a submission in the first. Unless the curse of the Gracie's continues and another Gracie fails to win inside the Octagon.
Casey vs. Cavalho. This TV card, for me, is intended to put guys and girls they like on TV against viewer friendly, high output fighters who they can beat. Carvalho fits that mold. She's got a lot of potential, and she's just better than Casey, who will scrap but should be outgunned on the ground but will scramble and scrap and make it entertaining. Probably goes to the cards.
Luque vs. Barbarena. Again, Luque is a prospect, real finisher. Barbarena's tough as nails but it should be a showcase of Luque's offence. Luque should find the knockout but again, Barbarena's a scrapper.
Fili vs. Jury is a battle of 2 guys on the bubble, who aren't quite top 10 and never will be, but are good enough to beat 11-20. Unfairly, both seem to get a disproportionate level of step ups compared to, say, Michel Prazares, who has been allowed to rack up the wins on undercards. Alas, it's a pick em fight. I'd lean Jury because I think he's slightly better and has lost to better fighters, but it's a coin flip that goes to a split decision for me.
Lopez vs. Bermudez is a good action fight, both unbeaten. I lean Lopez, anybody who makes a name out of triangle chokes I feel is waiting to be intelligently defended against in guard. Don't make mistakes. It's an avoidable submission for guys that aren't ground novices. Plus he missed weight quite substantially so might be depleted.
Evans-Smith vs. Lee. Good WMMA fight. Both scrap. Would like Lee to win, Evans-Smith is limited but tough and Lee has greater upside.
Holtzman vs. Lentz, should be a Holtzman win on points. He's putting it together whereas Lentz is on the back end of a long and unremarkable UFC career.
Penne vs. Esquibel is meh. Penne I guess.
Renan Barao 12th fight down, missing weight again. Shits himself but coasts to a points loss I bet. Astonishing career trajectory. Him or Johny Hendricks the worst ever?
Alexandra Albu! She scraps. Fights every 2 years but entertaining enough.
She's got an absurd body as well.
Renan Barao and BJ Penn should fight.
Pull the trigger Francis Ngannou is GOAT. Dangerous bastard. Cain's body isn't going to hold up for another run. Guessing DC starts his diet tomorrow for Jones 3 after that!
Ugh.
I think now is the time that Cain being heavyweight greatest of all time should end. He doesn’t have the body of work to back it up. Maybe he could’ve been if he wasn’t made of glass, but he went life and death with Kongo in his prime, got smashed by JDS in his prime, he got smashed by Werdum in his prime and regardless of his knee his fight IQ versus Francis was ridiculous. Everyone knows don’t go in close against Franck’s early, let him tire himself out and then try to pick a single leg. When he got buckled with the short uppercut he was steaming in head down totally unprotected.
The narrative that he’s this endless cardio monster with a chin of steel that can batter anyone was based on what exactly? He beat a shot Big Nog, a Brock Lesnar who doesn’t like getting hit and everyone felt was overrated and then a merry go round with JDS (who is still by far the best win on his record) and Bigfoot Silva.
Does anyone really think think that those four wins make the best heavyweight of all time?
He got STARCHED by Werdum who went toe to toe with him and beat him standing, made Cain shoot for a desperate predictable takedown that was based off him being totally gassed and caught him the guilotine choke he has waiting for him. Cardio machine label comes from what? Going the distance once in a fight he was dominating?
Every loss comes attached with an excuse too, sea level Cain, injury before the back Cain. No heavyweight has ever been rated higher than Cain, yet he hasn’t backed that up with results, just potential, he might be the potential GOAT, but that’s all.
Agreed. The Lesnar fight comes with an asterix too, as Brock was done after his diverticulitis. Shane Carwin routed him, a basic boxer-wrestler in Shane Carwin, but completely ran out of gas. Still a good win though. The 2 JDS wins are all time great performances, but that's 2 fights. Bigfoot, Kongo, Rothwell and Browne are good wins but good wins are littered through other candidate's resumes. Big Nog had slowed considerably by their fight but still a good win. So 7 good career wins and 2 great. Fedor had 3 great (prime Nog x 2 and Cro Cop) and way more good wins - Herring, Coleman, Randleman, Arlovski, Sylvia, Hunt, Goodridge, Babalu, Arona, Lindland, Schilt, not counting shot versions of Rizzo, Mir and Sonnen or a proven fluke like Rogers. Cain has absolutely no argument against Fedor. He's now racked up as many decisive losses in his prime too.
Other contenders - JDS - lost the series to Cain but still has a win against him - and also beat Miocic and Werdum (great wins) as well as Cro Cop, Rothwell, Mir, Hunt, Carwin, Nelson and Gonzaga. Miocic - JDS, Reem, Werdum, Ngannou, Arlovski, Hunt, Nelson, Gonzaga. Cormier himself has Stipe, Barnett, Mir, Nelson, Black Beast and Bigfoot on it while going undefeated. Nogueira has great wins. Werdum has great wins and takes the head 2 head. Reem. Cain is absolutely in that bubble of heavyweights, but you could debate each of those names on strength of resume. Ngannou is pretty much a novice in terms of fighting high calibre opposition and I'd say he's already racked up 5 good wins with great potential to add to that. Cain got left behind. 1 win in 5 years.
It’s the insistence that he’s the greatest heavyweight of all time that irks me most. He just hasn’t ever proven it. He doesn’t even particularly stand above his contemporaries in JDS, Miocic, Overeem, Werdum or Cormier as far as I’m concerned. In fact I think if you created a league table with those guys all fighting, I think Cain would lose as many as he won. It’s not to say that he isn’t a great heavyweight, he just never earned the perceived elevation above the rest.
Nevermind the likes of Fedor or Big Nog, who did it for much longer and fought much more consistently. Even in a different generation, their records are on a different level.
Definitely didn't get "starched" vs Werdum, and that fight was in Mexico City... every fighter on the card gassed that night.
But I don't really disagree with the rest.
He got beaten on the feet and beaten on the ground. Werdum landed on him consistently and was never once in any trouble. He baited Cain into taking him down and as soon as he did, Werdum sunk in the choke. It was a comprehensive victory in every way.
Werdum didnt gas, 7 of the fights on the card went to decision and plenty of those fighters didn’t gas. There’s been a few ufc cards in Mexico City and people didn’t gas. That’s a convenient excuse Cain apologists make that his fans got behind and the ufc perpetuated. Cain gassed because he didn’t acclimatise properly and because he was taking numerous clean punches to the face, those shouldn’t be excuses that get any credibility. If you gas because you haven’t prepared properly, or because you haven’t cut weight properly, or you haven’t gotten in the right shape, that doesn’t give you a free pass, that’s your own fault.
Actually I just went back to rewatch the fight. Cain was more on top in the first round than I remember, but was going in very high tempo, towards the end of the round Werdum starts taking over and Cain goes back to the corner cut. In the second round Werdum pieces him up with a higher work rate and a straight jab, Cain is still fairly active but it just being beaten to the punch, is getting hit CLEAN constantly on the end of Werdum’s punches. From the start of round 3 it’s clear Cain is totally out of ideas and starts spamming takedowns with no set up against a fresher man.
It really doesn’t seem to be a case of gassing, it’s Werdum’s clean striking and Cain’s lack of defence when he can’t rely on bulldozing or wearing someone out with take downs (Werdum is too dangerous on the ground) that wins it for Fabricio.
The turning point comes towards the end of round 1. So if Cain’s gas tank, even in Mexico City, can’t last beyond one round then the fabled cardio monster has been exaggerated. Again, we have no real evidence in the octagon of this ‘Cain can’t be tired, he just goes and goes’ other than two fights agains a JDS who is clearly overmuscled, clearly exhausted by one round of defending Cain’s takedowns and virtually turns into a human punching bag.
I distinctly remember the strawweights on that card (Torres vs Hill iirc) gassing hard by the end of the first round, which was the reason I gave Cain a pass for gassing that night. When has he gassed outside of that one fight? It just seems like an odd criticism to add to a laundry list following a loss where he blew his knee out in 20 seconds of the first round.
Fwiw though I do agree that gassing out is the fault of the fighter and better preparation could solve it. Werdum actually spent his camp near Mexico City for that very reason.
Fedor, Stipe, DC, Big Nog -
- I think that's your hw mt rushmore. These guys in their primes win solidly more than they lose against other top hw competition.
Then there's a small logjam of very good to great hws - Werdum, Cain, JDS, Overeem, Crocop, Couture, Barnett - who would all mostly trade w/l on any given night with one another, while they mostly starch the middle of the pack guys.
Cain was always juuussst another big pelt away from elevating to that elite group.
Cain's inactivity is all that held him back from us seeing his true potential, which imo would be fucking scary. 2 losses people....2 losses against 2 of the best HW's ever. Then he comes back, 2 1/2 years off, and we all expected the same thing every other time he's been out for a grip: Come back like he never missed a step and looked even better than before.
Unfortunately, Francis got his groove back and he's no fucking joke. This is why I like seeing the best of the best fight. But I'm also not a fan who writes a 9 paragraph essay going "Oh he wasn't as good as everyone made him out to be" For me Cain is the elite. If everyone is healthy, in their prime, etc. I see Cain as the best of all time.
Cain's fragility is what hurts him in the GOAT argument for me. When he's on he's clearly one of the best ever.
The two shellackings over (prime) JDS shouldn't be downplayed either. The first time everyone insisted JDS was unbeatable and Cain 10-8'ed every round. In fact JDS hasn't been quite the same ever since. Cain's a scary dude.
Yep. The inactivity has hurt him for sure but I still can't turn my back on him. Honestly, if it was someone that wasn't known for having that kind of power that beat Cain in 30 seconds I might be on board with acting like he was never really the elite fighter I think he is....but it was Mike Tyson Ngannou lol.
I'm not questioning his gas tank, I'm saying that his gas tank is unproven. He's gone to the distance twice. Everyone seems desperate to use that as his excuse for being beat off Werdum, my point is that on his night, he's pretty equivalent to Werdum. I think that he'd trade wins and losses with him.
Prove it. Where is the proof that Cain is unstoppable? Prove that he is the best of all time? He's a good fighter who never proved himself to be great, but everyone seems to want to give him the credit for it anyway. Overeem might've been the best if he had a chin. Cain might've been the best if he wasn't always injured. Nobody goes around making excuses for Overeem though. Cain never proved he was the best, he has two genuinely big wins in his career about a guy who is now mostly seen more as a limited gatekeeper than anything else.
Why 'clearly'? He traded wins and losses with JDS. He came out on top, but he got knocked out inside 1 minute, that's happened to him twice now.
Name me someone in the GOAT conversation in ANY division that has two knockout losses inside of a minute. It's widely accepted that Fedor is absolutely shot to bits and even he doesn't quite have that. And with Cain, not only is he 'in the conversation', Anik said on his way to the octagon that he's 'many people's consensus pick for all time heavyweight great', not 'potential heavyweight great if his body wasn't such a wreck'. What has he done to earn that distinction over people who have put together solid records of actual results? Not fantasy results, but actual results. You don't get to be the consensus pick of greatest of all time for what you could've achieved. I'd argue that Cain's record wouldn't even have him in the Top 5 heavyweights.
Last edited by Mik; February 18th, 2019 at 12:06 PM.
I never said he was unstoppable. Who at HW is unstoppable? Cormier? I would have loved a DC v. Cain fight.
People do go around making excuses for Overeem, they talk about how long he's been doing this while gassing up accomplishments like being the Dream, Strikeforce, and K-1 HW champion at the same time.
How did Cain not prove he was the best? He avenged his loss to JDS twice, in brutal fucking fashion. He fought contenders and more often than not made it look easy. We can sit here and dissect every single fighter's ability till we're blue in the face; Big Nog was past his prime, Browne wasn't that good, JDS was this, Lesnar was that.....It wasn't like Cain struggled in these victories. He went in and destroyed Lesnar. He destroyed Browne. Everyone but a few guys he made it look easy and that's how he proved he's ELITE. Some might not agree he's the goat, that's fine, but to act like this guy was never as good as his peers and respected people in the game say he is.....idk.
He lost to Werdum, who imo is one of the best ever, and now he just lost to arguably the deadliest striker in the HW division. I'm not negative to those defeats like you are being right now.
The 2nd and 3rd fights were far more telling than the first in terms of who was the far superior fighter. The only thing to be taken from their first fight was that HW is dangerous and they hit hard.
I quite agree Mark.
Nash, bullshit. Nobody is calling Overeem the greatest heavyweight of all time.
Cain gets given a fantasy accolade because of things that he could may have done, but never actually did do in the octagon. Even if you take the context of who he fought out, he beat Brock Lesnar, Junior Dos Santos, Antonio Silva, Travis Browne, Ben Rothwell, Big Nog and Cheick Kongo.
He has wins against exactly 7 recognisable names to show for his career at heavyweight.
Werdum (Travis Browne, Cain, Fedor, Mark Hunt, Big Nog, Roy Nelson, Big Foot Silva, Overeem, Gonzaga, Brandon Vera), put him 100% undeniably ahead of Cain on the list.
Overeem (Werdum, Hunt, JDS, Arlovski, Nelson, Mir, Lesnar, Rogers, Kharitonov, Mir), put Overeem about level with Cain to me. He beat more top guys, including one that Cain beat, but he lost to more too.
Cormier (Bigfoot, Barnett, Mir, Nelson, Miocic), less wins than Cain, but his two best (Barnett and Miocic) are as good as Cain's two best (Miocic beat JDS and I think Barnett would've smashed Lesnar) and the fact that Cormier has never lost puts him ahead of Cain for me.
Miocic (beat Nelson, Gonzaga, Hunt, Arlovski, Werdum, Overeem, Dos Santos and big Francis)...beat two people that beat Cain, it's undeniable that his record is better than Cain's.
At this point here I'm struggling to justify Cain's inclusion in this modern generation's UFC top 5 heavyweights, let alone taking into account the likes of Fedor, Big Nog and Cro Cop who won fought more consistently, won more frequently, against arguably tougher competition (comparatively) and for a MUCH longer time.
Which other division is the person with arguably the 7th or 8th best record continuously lauded as the 'greatest of all time'?
In his PRIME, he got knocked out by JDS in under a minute and got pieced up by a beyond his prime Fabricio Werdum. The whole 'on his best day he could beat everyone', is not exclusive to Cain but to probably about 10 heavyweights in the history of the division.
You said people don't go around making excuses for Overeem when in fact they do make excuses.
You're right, on his best day he could beat everyone is not exclusive to Cain. It applies to GSP, BJ Penn, Jon Jones, etc.
For me though, if I had every top HW in their prime going at it, I'd put all my money on Cain. What he does in the cage, his skillset, overall imo the best HW.
And this is in no way shape or form saying there is no other argument.
They don’t make excuses up for Overeem. If you did a poll on any MMA website about who IS the best heavyweight of all time, Fedor and Cain would split the vote, Overeem wouldn’t come close. Fedor on merit, Cain on perceived potential.
Difference between the names you listed and Cain was that they DID dominate their division for a prolonged period of time. Cain didn’t, hasn’t and never will. The fact that you put him in the same breath says everything I need to say about how overrated he is.
Heavyweight is an interesting one because Fedor's 3 defeats in Strikeforce put his legacy in enough doubt where it can be disputed, somehow, that he's not the greatest heavyweight of all time. Anderson's losses haven't done that to him at middleweight for example. It's Anderson, with Jacare, Romero, Whitaker, Rockhold, Franklin, Bisping and Weidman in the pack behind with wins against each other, and a couple with wins over the GOAT of the division. Nobody's disputing Whittaker as the best in divisional history despite big wins, because he just doesn't have the resume. You can argue that he's not outright #2 as well. Arguing for Cain would be debating one of those guys has unseated Anderson as the greatest middleweight - resume says they haven't. And I say that acknowledging that half those guys, prime vs. prime, would be fancied against Silva. The actual wins just don't add up to Anderson's.
Welterweight is completely different. GSP, Hughes, Woodley is quite a clear order for me.
Why did it take Frances stopping him for this to be such a strong debate? Had he won I doubt you would have gone to these lengths to explain why he isn't.
I’ve consistently talked about how I think Cain is overrated on here. This loss is just more fuel for my argument. It wasn’t even the fact that he lost, it’s that he lost fighting like an idiot.
The fuck you mean fighting like an idiot? I would love to see your MMA fights.
I get it, you don't think Cain is awesome, but it wasn't like he walked up to Ngannou with his hands down Diaz style and took a nap lol.
His knee actually popped out before Francis hit him the first time. So if by fighting like an idiot you mean he hurt himself in typical Cain Velasquez fashion then I agree.
And the funny thing is, Cain and others are saying he was actually clipped and THEN his knee fucked up as well. So this was sort of in a way like when Gonzaga headkick murdered Cro Cop then Cro tore the shit out of his ACL on the way down.
But yeah, I still don't how he was fighting like an IDIOT. The fight was 26 seconds, not much room to gauge how stupid his gameplan turned out.
I wouldn't really compare Cain's loss to Cro Cop's... CC got KO'd dead and hurt his knee falling on it unconscious. Cain's popped out first, leading to him falling and then getting TKO'd.
Grow up dickhead. If we cannot criticise the game plan of MMA fighters without high level MMA experience then let’s just shut this forum down should we?
His gameplan was shit. Stipe created the blueprint. Stay out on the outside, let Ngannou tire himself out throwing heavy strikes and time your takedowns. Cain bull rushed in, head down, no set up on his takedown, got way too close against a fresh Ngannou and took a clean short uppercut on the inside that knocked his head back and his knee (which my all accounts was already weak from his open workout) buckled ON HIS WAY DOWN, and the uppercut put him down. He loses all his stability as soon as his head is rocked back. I’m not sure if this gif works, but it’s pretty indisputable (of course you’ll try to dispute it anyway):
I actually quite like Cain, he is a total pro, was always humble and at one time was one of the best heavyweights in the world. However he was always massively overhyped by fanboys like you for what he could supposedly do that he never ever proved. Now you can’t help tripping over yourself for making excuses for his losses and ALL of them are bullshit. Every time he got beaten by the better fighter on the night.
Not the first loss to JDS. He proved without shadow of a doubt that he was the better fighter, twice.
The better fighter than JDS doesn’t make you the best heavyweight of all time. He beat another good fighter, who has ultimately been proven since to be fairly limited. Obviously that’s easy to say after Cain battered him twice, but it’s fair to say now that JDS is nowhere near the GOAT conversation.
Sure, I was just commenting on your line that every loss he's had was to the better fighter.
Stipe didn't create any blueprint because nobody has executed the same gameplan successfully against Francis. He was gun shy against Derrick Lewis, he literally threw like 3 punches for 15 minutes or some crazy stat like that and Lewis didn't do shit either because he knew one of those 3 would knock his ass out.Grow up dickhead. If we cannot criticise the game plan of MMA fighters without high level MMA experience then let’s just shut this forum down should we?
His gameplan was shit. Stipe created the blueprint. Stay out on the outside, let Ngannou tire himself out throwing heavy strikes and time your takedowns. Cain bull rushed in, head down, no set up on his takedown, got way too close against a fresh Ngannou and took a clean short uppercut on the inside that knocked his head back and his knee (which my all accounts was already weak from his open workout) buckled ON HIS WAY DOWN, and the uppercut put him down. He loses all his stability as soon as his head is rocked back. I’m not sure if this gif works, but it’s pretty indisputable (of course you’ll try to dispute it anyway):
I actually quite like Cain, he is a total pro, was always humble and at one time was one of the best heavyweights in the world. However he was always massively overhyped by fanboys like you for what he could supposedly do that he never ever proved. Now you can’t help tripping over yourself for making excuses for his losses and ALL of them are bullshit. Every time he got beaten by the better fighter on the night.
Cain was right, he came in too close. I think really all that's happening here is you're diminishing Francis' huge victory by going above and beyond to discredit anyone's claim that Cain is the best HW of all time.
I very specifically said the better fighter...on the night. Which JDS was on the night. They were both injured going into the fight, JDS landed hard and early.
I don’t think that you understand what a blueprint is. You will argue wth absolutely anything.
Last edited by Mik; February 21st, 2019 at 6:13 AM.
He wasn't the better fighter that night at all. The rematch and rubber match proved it to be a lucky punch.
What was so 'lucky' about that punch?
You're basically taking any credit away from JDS as a world class bad motherfucking puncher by saying that.
I know exactly what a blueprint is. Don't get so bent out of shape because I'm not agreeing with you.
Naw, that doesn't take anything away from JDS except for the fact that JDS doesn't really have a laundry list of one punch KO finishes.
It was a lucky shot but in a good way. I mean, Matt Serra got lucky against GSP but that doesn't mean he's still not a bad motherfucker.
I'm saying the better fighter didn't win that night.
Well it seems like you're trying to justify saying that by saying the punch was lucky, I'm just asking if you could clarify what was so lucky about it.
A world class striker/puncher threw the punch, landed exactly where he wanted to when he wanted to, and got a result that isn't entirely unlikely from a guy with his tools ... so honest question, where does luck come into it? If he lands that exact same punch with the exact same result on someone ranked lower that Cain, is it all of a sudden not lucky?
I know this is for Mark to answer but if I could as well....
Ranking is only a part of it. Someone of Cain's skillset getting taken out with 1 punch by a guy who is not known for being that kind of striker.....So yeah, if JDS knocked out Marcio Cruz with one punch nobody would really look at that beyond Cruz couldn't take a punch. Since we know what Cain brings to the table, a guy who had fought some tough hombres, never been finished.....Even when it's the #1 ranked contender doing it, it's still luck.
Again, show me the laundry list of one punch knockouts? JDS is my favorite HW fighter, he's a powerful striker but he's not the guy you can expect to 1 punch KO someone on a regular. JDS got lucky, he doesn't have laser accuracy because why didn't he throw that same punch and land it in the exact same spot the other 2 fights? Wouldn't that have prevented him from losing 3 decades of his life to Cain? I mean, you said it, he meant to throw that punch and knew it would land at that exact spot and would KO Cain....King Hippo Strategy my ninja.
"Lucky" might not be a fair word to use. It was more of a very fortunate punch. Yes he aimed for the head and hit it, but the precise spot it hit behind the ear, it was a 1 in 50 punch I think.
You just can't point to it and say he was a better fighter "that night", not after the information we received from the 2nd and 3rd fights.
We've all answered that way though. A loss is a loss, technically JDS was the better fighter THAT NIGHT.
But overall, Cain is the better of the two. He proved it in spades.
But that information came on a different night. We didn't receive any of that information on night 1 because Cain was too busy being knocked out cold by a terrific puncher who did his thing better ... on that brief night.
I think another fight between Conor and Aldo would go down differently than a 13 second ko if they were to run it back. Perhaps Conor wins again, and perhaps even by ko again. But I'd bet the farm that it wouldn't be the same flash finish and I'd think Aldo has a good shot of getting the better of him. But no matter what else happens or what I think Conor was just the better fighter in that brief encounter. The result says it all. Same for JDS/Cain.
JDS being the world class puncher/fighter deserves recognition for that night. If he were a lesser fighter I'd understand saying the odds were so stacked against him that it was a fluke/lucky. But the guy is one of the best hws of all time and he did what he intentionally set out to do. He earned that, and it's not a disparaging thing to say about Cain either.
Right, a hard punching HW can knock someone out at any moment, especially early in the fight. Does NOT make him a better fighter.
"What he intentionally set out to do...." Win by 1 punch? Shit if that was his only gameplan more power to him, probably why he hasn't been on a winning streak since.
Not for the entirety of their careers it doesn't, I agree.
I think they should have a 4th fight just to make sure.
No need. Evidently JDS was better the first time then Cain improved dramatically by their 2nd and 3rd fights.
lol.
I will say this, JDS might not have the laser precision Percussion thinks he does but he was smacking dudes in a couple minutes on the regular leading up to that W over Cain.
Side note....What up with Dustin Poirier and Al Iaquinta wanting to be released over the failed talks of GSP v. Khabib? Neither one of those dudes have a strong case over Tony Ferguson for the next shot and why aren't they up in arms about the possible Holloway-Ferguson interim title scrap?
LMAO.
Holloway vs. Poirier for the interim lightweight title. Fucking WME era UFC. This has all their tropes - needless interim title, "champ champ", aaaand a rematch! It's a great fight, but what we got to do to get a champion fight a top contender nowadays?
So Tony's injured then?
Yeah I don't like this rematch.
Holloway is going to talk all over him.
However if he moves up to his natural division is opens up some interesting fights AND has the added bonus of giving Jose Aldo the opportunity to win his belt back before retiring, I am so onboard with that.
I find it all very ironic. Not giving GSP a title shot at lightweight on the premise of him holding up the divisions or vacating when he's won - only the women's featherweight title and the heavyweight title were defended more than once last year. How inactive would they expect GSP to be if he won it, and would it make any bloody difference?
Thiago Santos yet another fighter benefitting from going up in weight. Wiped out Jimi and Jan, two top 10 staples, inside the side. Him and Anthony Smith fought for a spot on the fringes of the middleweight top 15 this time last year, now both are top 5 light heavyweights and between them have taken out 4 of the top 10 as well as Rashad Evans and Eryk Anders. Rockhold and Weidman need to start eating, that division is wide open for them to get to a title shot as shown by journeyman middleweights going up. Between them, Poirier, RDA (for a while), Cormier, Gastelum and Whitaker, I hope others start fighting at more comfortable weight classes for their frames. The speed difference is killing the heavier guys. If you're a good athlete with footwork, you're mad boiling yourself down to a lower weightclass.
preach..
People generally just need to start fighting at their natural weight.
Wrestler mentality has a trickle down effect in the States. You don't see a bunch of Japanese dudes cutting 40lbs. They're fat as hell at 200lbs.
Love this fight but would rather just wait for Khabib in November. Tony v Khabib
The problem definitely stems from wrestlers and their tradition of cutting water weight. They were coming in to MMA experts at weight cutting and everyone else was basically forced to adapt in order to compete with them.
See Mark Hughes is still a piece of shit.
Matt not Mark. Mark is the non-famous twin. And yes, MATT Hughes is a huge piece of shit. Just read his book, the guy is a scumbag, a great fighter but still a total scumbag.
Oh ah, poor typo! His book is really creepy. Just constantly bragging about being a prejudice sex pest.
He always had that small town I'm better than you because I grew up and still work on the farm attitude a lot of Iowans/Illinois-ians have. Even the TUF season with Matt Serra he really stood out like a prick. But then after that was when I heard about his book and the weird shit he was bragging about that him and his brother would do to people.
And he wasn't telling these stories in a "life lesson learned" way, he was just gloating. This is why I didn't feel that bad when he got into that accident. Karma motherfuckers, God was not impressed with your performance in life!
Black Beast vs. JDS tonight then. Big fight for both men. Rankings be damned, JDS would easily be Lewis' biggest win. On the flipside, a win over Lewis will put JDS back in the top 5 and on track for a title shot. It's heavyweights so by virtue a coin flip fight, but I think I like JDS to work the body and get a stoppage.
Not a whole lot else on the card so chance for somebody to make an impression.
JDS won how I thought he would. Black Beast is great value but he's not a great fighter in the slightest, hail mary'd his way to a title shot but capable of losing to any heavyweight if he doesn't find the big shot.
How good is welterweight at the minute? So many guys building impressive streaks - Usman, Covington, Ponzi, Capoiera, Luque, Edwards and Askren - as well as a load of former champions and contenders - Lawler, Woodley, RDA, Maia, Wonderboy, Till, Condit, Sanchez and Alves - and some of the better action fighters in the sport - Price, Means, Brown, Cowboy Olivera, Jingilang, Jouban and Perry. Throw in vetetans like Nelson, Masvidal and Magny, and prospects like Geoff Neal and you've got some division. Shame the title fights are likely to be grappling heavy in the foreseeable future.
Sherdog thinks JDS should be next to challenge Cormier....thoughts?
Personally idk....his 2 prior wins weren't exactly top tier but I would love the fight to happen.
Yeah why not. Big legacy fight for both and not an undeserved title shot based on his win streak. A win for Cormier would mean more for his resume than anybody at heavyweight other than Cain, which just isn't possible. Ngannou is more risk, less reward, same with the Miocic rematch. Those 2 fights likely do the same numbers as a JDS fight, while Cigano is the most faded of the 3 and the biggest from a name perspective. Lesnar is obviously the aim because he'll fill DC's pockets the most and represent the (on paper) easiest challenge.
I disagree that JDS is a bigger name/pelt than Stipe. A Miocic rematch may not be as universally compelling as taking on a streaking JDS for the first time, but as of today I think Stipe is the more heralded fighter.
At any rate the hw division is what it is, and while I lean toward preferring Ngannou/DC, a JDS/DC title fight sounds just as appealing as it should, so I'm down.
I agree that Stipe is the more heralded fighter, but Cormier already has the W over him. A win over JDS, a top 5 heavyweight of all time, would bolster his already incredible resume. In fact, it could be argued that he'd replace Cigano in said rankings with a win. I'd compare it to the Dan Henderson win. The Alexander Gustafsson of 2014/15 was twice the fighter of Henderson from the same era, but having both on the resume rather than 2 over Alex reads better.
Still respectfully disagree. Beating a tip of the spear guy twice reads better, imo, than beating a tip of the spear guy and a contender.
This isn't 2012 JDS and we've no reason as of yet to believe Stipe has turned a bad corner.
Part of the appeal of Frankie Edgar, Max Holloway, and TJ Dillashaw's stories is their each twice shutting down top ranked opponents. TJ doing the double double in fact.
And I get wanting variety of seemingly unnecessary rematches, like I said I'm down for DC/JDS, but it's as simple as stating the beating Stipe twice is more impressive than beating JDS today.
I'd like to see JDS v. Stipe 3. Which we very well could if DC v. Lesnar actually happens. One has to think as lean as Lesnar's been looking these days he's going to step back in the Octagon.
HW is mad crazy. You have 4 potential fights for DC before retires: Jon Jones super ultra mega fight, rematch with Stipe, never before fight against all time great JDS and obviously big big money fight with Lesnar.
Conor McGregor's been arrested for allegedly smashing a fan's phone while they were trying to take photos of him:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/mixed-martial-arts/47532635
Last edited by Badger; March 11th, 2019 at 8:55 PM.
This is a weird story. Smashes the phone, then picks it up and takes it with him lol. He was like fuck your phone and I'm taking the sim card lol.
He must be extremely camera shy!
Odd behavior for sure. I wonder if the fan was harassing him.
No excuse regardless if this is true. He could have have easily dealt with it calmly.
No excuse definitely. I'm just trying to make sense of it.
I wouldn't say NO excuse. Maybe taking the phone with him was dumb but we don't know the story at all. Trust me Badger, you stick a camera in my face as I'm walking out a club at 5am, your phone getting smashed will be the least of your worries.
I know you're not saying this but I also don't believe in the idea that just because you're famous this type of behavior is acceptable from paparazzi, fans, etc. People forget that we've already exchanged money for services. Conor McGregor gets paid to entertain not to take fucking pictures at 5am.
Conor has an absolute right to be angry don't get me wrong and I'm taking the story with a pinch of salt. Being a big star though, he should be used to these kinda situations regardless of the time of the morning if this story is true. It's odd that he would go to all that trouble for the sake of a random fan just to get his point across.
I agree we don't know the whole story here though.
What class do you take to get used to fans bothering you at 5am when you're coming out the club? These are not situations people get used to. Again, we don't know the full story. But on the surface of what we know, this goes back to what I was saying about how people need to basically have tact. There's no getting used to being bothered by fans/paparazzi at 5 in the morning.
Doesn't matter how big of a star he is, show some fucking respect.
I'm not excusing the fan at all if this is true, of course they should show him some respect. If this happened at 5am though, Conor still had the presence of mind to take the phone bits with him. I don't know if Conor was drunk or whatever, but he still seemed sharp of mind to do that. Surely once he's clear-headed that he should be reporting this but given his highlighted past anger issues, it doesn't look good on him.
Again just speculating and we don't know the whole story,
Awww look at Nash defending Conor. My heart's going to melt.
Again, doesn't matter if he was in the "right frame of mind", you can't expect someone of any status to act "normal" at 5am coming out the club. You ever witness someone at 5am in general? Fuck that, you might get knocked the fuck out if you wake me up at 5am let alone wanting something like a picture lol.
lol
Somebody hit me up please when Conor wins a fight, thanks..
Again (if the story is true) he took the phone bits with him. If I got bothered at 5am with someone taking snaps at me in the club I'd scream and shout but smashing and taking the guy's $1000 phone (which seems insanely expensive tbh), I wouldn't do that. There's consequences.
Conor 1 Mobile Phone 0
Dropping down in weight, of course..
Shit hit me up when he fights again period
You don't know what you do if you were him, at all. You've never been in that position in your life, no different than myself. I don't mind the conversation we're having but we have to be somewhat realistic of the circumstances and not act like he raped someone.
I wasn't comparing it to rape in the slightest.
Anyway, let's just wait for further details I guess.
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