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Thread: UFC - Ultimate Fighting Championship

  1. #11201
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    Someone jinxed this championship fight in here, saying if one of the 2 main fights go down the card is fucked and sure enough.

    I have to wonder what is up with Kelvin. Was he that pissed he lost his mind? Dude carrying around Cejudo's championship belt was fucking weird. Ringworm all over that bitch now.

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    I didn't realize it was Cejudo's but was wondering where the hell Kelvin got the thing. Now it makes sense.

    Ill-advised move but Kelvin at least deserved some attention after Whitaker pulling out the day of his title fight. And he's still a bad dude. Assuming Rob is out for the long haul then Kelvin vs Israel for the interim belt please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    I didn't realize it was Cejudo's but was wondering where the hell Kelvin got the thing. Now it makes sense.

    Ill-advised move but Kelvin at least deserved some attention after Whitaker pulling out the day of his title fight. And he's still a bad dude. Assuming Rob is out for the long haul then Kelvin vs Israel for the interim belt please.
    I heard he's out 6-8 weeks.

    What I didn't like is how entitled Kelvin became. Did this kid forget about how unprofessional it was to miss weight 3 times or the fact he barely won his last fight against Jacare? He was always very humble, respectful, just didn't make sense especially with how serious the situation was. And again, why the fuck do they allow fighters to compete with ringworm and staph?????? If anything, the fight should've been called off due to Kelvin and his nasty ass.

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    Good point.

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    And where were the reserves?? This is what also happens when you have a very very weak card. The only fight I personally cared about was the Anderson fight and even that fight was an odd fight to make. Sad thing is, this is the 2nd time Whitaker had to pull out of a hometown show but damn why does he have to live so far away??!??!

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    Not only that but it was kind of a boring fight I thought. Looked very much like a sparring contest.

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    Ya, two counter strikers with tons of respect for one another's standup. No fireworks but I still find it rather enjoyable watching them try and figure the other out.

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    Imagine fighting your Dad that you love and he taugjt you everything.

    I bet though if one of them really went for it the fight would've been over sooner than later.

  9. #11209
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    Velasquez vs. Ngannou tonight then. For me, this determines DC's retirement fight. Forget about this Brock Lesnar bollocks, Vince has the capital to keep him without him taking a shellacking off Daniel Cormier, failing his drugs test and depleting his bargaining power thereafter. Cain wins tonight and the retirement match is probably Stipe 2, Jones, or JDS if he beats Black Beast. Ngannou wins though and they definitely go the AKA revenge route and have Cormier vs. Ngannou. Francis is rebuildable after the Stipe and Lewis losses. Stipe was just better that night, and he laid an egg against Beast. If he beats Cain, he's a big potential commodity again.

    For me, Cain wins. He's a monster when he's on. He's got a good chin too. Never been put out cold, ridiculous recovery levels outside of the JDS loss. Those flush Kongo shots (TEN fucking years ago... jesus) where he'd take a knee then just take him down was Terminator-esque. Obviously Francis hits insanely hard and could connect early and put him out, but I like Cain's chin to hold up, find that takedown and do nasty Cain Velasquez things after that. I like him to finish it too. He's relentless once he has you down, violent. Non-stop peppering of shots until you give up your back and basically accept defeat underneath his punches. I see his pace overwhelming Ngannou by the end of the second, with Francis not coming out for the 3rd or getting mercy killed early in that round. Interesting fight.

    Weird order here. Rivera vs. Sterling is the co-main really, but it's 7th fight down to give ESPN+ subscribers something I guess. I think Sterling gets his statement win in that one, he's putting it together and Rivera seems to have stood still a bit. He's the same fighter he was 3 years ago, whereas Sterling's jab, kicks and submission grappling are much improved. It's a close fight to call as Rivera is very good, but Sterling is realising that upside. Close but clear decision for Aljo for me.

    The actual co-main event is Vick vs. Felder. I like the fight for it's violence. Vick is high output with a shaky chin, Felder is tough as nails but probably needs to land something big cos he doesn't throw as readily. Leaning Vick because of his jab and range, but would love to see Felder pick up a big win. Seems a great bloke.

    Kron Gracie debut against Alex Cacares. Squash match. Kron is a blue chip prospect, Cacares loses to anyone decent. Should be a submission in the first. Unless the curse of the Gracie's continues and another Gracie fails to win inside the Octagon.

    Casey vs. Cavalho. This TV card, for me, is intended to put guys and girls they like on TV against viewer friendly, high output fighters who they can beat. Carvalho fits that mold. She's got a lot of potential, and she's just better than Casey, who will scrap but should be outgunned on the ground but will scramble and scrap and make it entertaining. Probably goes to the cards.

    Luque vs. Barbarena. Again, Luque is a prospect, real finisher. Barbarena's tough as nails but it should be a showcase of Luque's offence. Luque should find the knockout but again, Barbarena's a scrapper.

    Fili vs. Jury is a battle of 2 guys on the bubble, who aren't quite top 10 and never will be, but are good enough to beat 11-20. Unfairly, both seem to get a disproportionate level of step ups compared to, say, Michel Prazares, who has been allowed to rack up the wins on undercards. Alas, it's a pick em fight. I'd lean Jury because I think he's slightly better and has lost to better fighters, but it's a coin flip that goes to a split decision for me.

    Lopez vs. Bermudez is a good action fight, both unbeaten. I lean Lopez, anybody who makes a name out of triangle chokes I feel is waiting to be intelligently defended against in guard. Don't make mistakes. It's an avoidable submission for guys that aren't ground novices. Plus he missed weight quite substantially so might be depleted.

    Evans-Smith vs. Lee. Good WMMA fight. Both scrap. Would like Lee to win, Evans-Smith is limited but tough and Lee has greater upside.

    Holtzman vs. Lentz, should be a Holtzman win on points. He's putting it together whereas Lentz is on the back end of a long and unremarkable UFC career.

    Penne vs. Esquibel is meh. Penne I guess.

    Renan Barao 12th fight down, missing weight again. Shits himself but coasts to a points loss I bet. Astonishing career trajectory. Him or Johny Hendricks the worst ever?

    Alexandra Albu! She scraps. Fights every 2 years but entertaining enough.

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    She's got an absurd body as well.

  11. #11211
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    Renan Barao and BJ Penn should fight.

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    Pull the trigger Francis Ngannou is GOAT. Dangerous bastard. Cain's body isn't going to hold up for another run. Guessing DC starts his diet tomorrow for Jones 3 after that!

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    Ugh.

  14. #11214
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    I think now is the time that Cain being heavyweight greatest of all time should end. He doesn’t have the body of work to back it up. Maybe he could’ve been if he wasn’t made of glass, but he went life and death with Kongo in his prime, got smashed by JDS in his prime, he got smashed by Werdum in his prime and regardless of his knee his fight IQ versus Francis was ridiculous. Everyone knows don’t go in close against Franck’s early, let him tire himself out and then try to pick a single leg. When he got buckled with the short uppercut he was steaming in head down totally unprotected.

    The narrative that he’s this endless cardio monster with a chin of steel that can batter anyone was based on what exactly? He beat a shot Big Nog, a Brock Lesnar who doesn’t like getting hit and everyone felt was overrated and then a merry go round with JDS (who is still by far the best win on his record) and Bigfoot Silva.

    Does anyone really think think that those four wins make the best heavyweight of all time?

    He got STARCHED by Werdum who went toe to toe with him and beat him standing, made Cain shoot for a desperate predictable takedown that was based off him being totally gassed and caught him the guilotine choke he has waiting for him. Cardio machine label comes from what? Going the distance once in a fight he was dominating?

    Every loss comes attached with an excuse too, sea level Cain, injury before the back Cain. No heavyweight has ever been rated higher than Cain, yet he hasn’t backed that up with results, just potential, he might be the potential GOAT, but that’s all.

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    Agreed. The Lesnar fight comes with an asterix too, as Brock was done after his diverticulitis. Shane Carwin routed him, a basic boxer-wrestler in Shane Carwin, but completely ran out of gas. Still a good win though. The 2 JDS wins are all time great performances, but that's 2 fights. Bigfoot, Kongo, Rothwell and Browne are good wins but good wins are littered through other candidate's resumes. Big Nog had slowed considerably by their fight but still a good win. So 7 good career wins and 2 great. Fedor had 3 great (prime Nog x 2 and Cro Cop) and way more good wins - Herring, Coleman, Randleman, Arlovski, Sylvia, Hunt, Goodridge, Babalu, Arona, Lindland, Schilt, not counting shot versions of Rizzo, Mir and Sonnen or a proven fluke like Rogers. Cain has absolutely no argument against Fedor. He's now racked up as many decisive losses in his prime too.

    Other contenders - JDS - lost the series to Cain but still has a win against him - and also beat Miocic and Werdum (great wins) as well as Cro Cop, Rothwell, Mir, Hunt, Carwin, Nelson and Gonzaga. Miocic - JDS, Reem, Werdum, Ngannou, Arlovski, Hunt, Nelson, Gonzaga. Cormier himself has Stipe, Barnett, Mir, Nelson, Black Beast and Bigfoot on it while going undefeated. Nogueira has great wins. Werdum has great wins and takes the head 2 head. Reem. Cain is absolutely in that bubble of heavyweights, but you could debate each of those names on strength of resume. Ngannou is pretty much a novice in terms of fighting high calibre opposition and I'd say he's already racked up 5 good wins with great potential to add to that. Cain got left behind. 1 win in 5 years.

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    Legend Mik's Avatar
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    It’s the insistence that he’s the greatest heavyweight of all time that irks me most. He just hasn’t ever proven it. He doesn’t even particularly stand above his contemporaries in JDS, Miocic, Overeem, Werdum or Cormier as far as I’m concerned. In fact I think if you created a league table with those guys all fighting, I think Cain would lose as many as he won. It’s not to say that he isn’t a great heavyweight, he just never earned the perceived elevation above the rest.

    Nevermind the likes of Fedor or Big Nog, who did it for much longer and fought much more consistently. Even in a different generation, their records are on a different level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I think now is the time that Cain being heavyweight greatest of all time should end. He doesn’t have the body of work to back it up. Maybe he could’ve been if he wasn’t made of glass, but he went life and death with Kongo in his prime, got smashed by JDS in his prime, he got smashed by Werdum in his prime and regardless of his knee his fight IQ versus Francis was ridiculous. Everyone knows don’t go in close against Franck’s early, let him tire himself out and then try to pick a single leg. When he got buckled with the short uppercut he was steaming in head down totally unprotected.

    The narrative that he’s this endless cardio monster with a chin of steel that can batter anyone was based on what exactly? He beat a shot Big Nog, a Brock Lesnar who doesn’t like getting hit and everyone felt was overrated and then a merry go round with JDS (who is still by far the best win on his record) and Bigfoot Silva.

    Does anyone really think think that those four wins make the best heavyweight of all time?

    He got STARCHED by Werdum who went toe to toe with him and beat him standing, made Cain shoot for a desperate predictable takedown that was based off him being totally gassed and caught him the guilotine choke he has waiting for him. Cardio machine label comes from what? Going the distance once in a fight he was dominating?

    Every loss comes attached with an excuse too, sea level Cain, injury before the back Cain. No heavyweight has ever been rated higher than Cain, yet he hasn’t backed that up with results, just potential, he might be the potential GOAT, but that’s all.
    Definitely didn't get "starched" vs Werdum, and that fight was in Mexico City... every fighter on the card gassed that night.

    But I don't really disagree with the rest.

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    He got beaten on the feet and beaten on the ground. Werdum landed on him consistently and was never once in any trouble. He baited Cain into taking him down and as soon as he did, Werdum sunk in the choke. It was a comprehensive victory in every way.

    Werdum didnt gas, 7 of the fights on the card went to decision and plenty of those fighters didn’t gas. There’s been a few ufc cards in Mexico City and people didn’t gas. That’s a convenient excuse Cain apologists make that his fans got behind and the ufc perpetuated. Cain gassed because he didn’t acclimatise properly and because he was taking numerous clean punches to the face, those shouldn’t be excuses that get any credibility. If you gas because you haven’t prepared properly, or because you haven’t cut weight properly, or you haven’t gotten in the right shape, that doesn’t give you a free pass, that’s your own fault.

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    Actually I just went back to rewatch the fight. Cain was more on top in the first round than I remember, but was going in very high tempo, towards the end of the round Werdum starts taking over and Cain goes back to the corner cut. In the second round Werdum pieces him up with a higher work rate and a straight jab, Cain is still fairly active but it just being beaten to the punch, is getting hit CLEAN constantly on the end of Werdum’s punches. From the start of round 3 it’s clear Cain is totally out of ideas and starts spamming takedowns with no set up against a fresher man.

    It really doesn’t seem to be a case of gassing, it’s Werdum’s clean striking and Cain’s lack of defence when he can’t rely on bulldozing or wearing someone out with take downs (Werdum is too dangerous on the ground) that wins it for Fabricio.

    The turning point comes towards the end of round 1. So if Cain’s gas tank, even in Mexico City, can’t last beyond one round then the fabled cardio monster has been exaggerated. Again, we have no real evidence in the octagon of this ‘Cain can’t be tired, he just goes and goes’ other than two fights agains a JDS who is clearly overmuscled, clearly exhausted by one round of defending Cain’s takedowns and virtually turns into a human punching bag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    He got beaten on the feet and beaten on the ground. Werdum landed on him consistently and was never once in any trouble. He baited Cain into taking him down and as soon as he did, Werdum sunk in the choke. It was a comprehensive victory in every way.

    Werdum didnt gas, 7 of the fights on the card went to decision and plenty of those fighters didn’t gas. There’s been a few ufc cards in Mexico City and people didn’t gas. That’s a convenient excuse Cain apologists make that his fans got behind and the ufc perpetuated. Cain gassed because he didn’t acclimatise properly and because he was taking numerous clean punches to the face, those shouldn’t be excuses that get any credibility. If you gas because you haven’t prepared properly, or because you haven’t cut weight properly, or you haven’t gotten in the right shape, that doesn’t give you a free pass, that’s your own fault.
    I distinctly remember the strawweights on that card (Torres vs Hill iirc) gassing hard by the end of the first round, which was the reason I gave Cain a pass for gassing that night. When has he gassed outside of that one fight? It just seems like an odd criticism to add to a laundry list following a loss where he blew his knee out in 20 seconds of the first round.

    Fwiw though I do agree that gassing out is the fault of the fighter and better preparation could solve it. Werdum actually spent his camp near Mexico City for that very reason.

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    Fedor, Stipe, DC, Big Nog -

    - I think that's your hw mt rushmore. These guys in their primes win solidly more than they lose against other top hw competition.

    Then there's a small logjam of very good to great hws - Werdum, Cain, JDS, Overeem, Crocop, Couture, Barnett - who would all mostly trade w/l on any given night with one another, while they mostly starch the middle of the pack guys.

    Cain was always juuussst another big pelt away from elevating to that elite group.

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    Cain's inactivity is all that held him back from us seeing his true potential, which imo would be fucking scary. 2 losses people....2 losses against 2 of the best HW's ever. Then he comes back, 2 1/2 years off, and we all expected the same thing every other time he's been out for a grip: Come back like he never missed a step and looked even better than before.

    Unfortunately, Francis got his groove back and he's no fucking joke. This is why I like seeing the best of the best fight. But I'm also not a fan who writes a 9 paragraph essay going "Oh he wasn't as good as everyone made him out to be" For me Cain is the elite. If everyone is healthy, in their prime, etc. I see Cain as the best of all time.

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    Cain's fragility is what hurts him in the GOAT argument for me. When he's on he's clearly one of the best ever.

    The two shellackings over (prime) JDS shouldn't be downplayed either. The first time everyone insisted JDS was unbeatable and Cain 10-8'ed every round. In fact JDS hasn't been quite the same ever since. Cain's a scary dude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    Cain's fragility is what hurts him in the GOAT argument for me. When he's on he's clearly one of the best ever.

    The two shellackings over (prime) JDS shouldn't be downplayed either. The first time everyone insisted JDS was unbeatable and Cain 10-8'ed every round. In fact JDS hasn't been quite the same ever since. Cain's a scary dude.
    Yep. The inactivity has hurt him for sure but I still can't turn my back on him. Honestly, if it was someone that wasn't known for having that kind of power that beat Cain in 30 seconds I might be on board with acting like he was never really the elite fighter I think he is....but it was Mike Tyson Ngannou lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    I distinctly remember the strawweights on that card (Torres vs Hill iirc) gassing hard by the end of the first round, which was the reason I gave Cain a pass for gassing that night. When has he gassed outside of that one fight? It just seems like an odd criticism to add to a laundry list following a loss where he blew his knee out in 20 seconds of the first round.

    Fwiw though I do agree that gassing out is the fault of the fighter and better preparation could solve it. Werdum actually spent his camp near Mexico City for that very reason.
    I'm not questioning his gas tank, I'm saying that his gas tank is unproven. He's gone to the distance twice. Everyone seems desperate to use that as his excuse for being beat off Werdum, my point is that on his night, he's pretty equivalent to Werdum. I think that he'd trade wins and losses with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nash Diesel View Post
    Cain's inactivity is all that held him back from us seeing his true potential, which imo would be fucking scary. 2 losses people....2 losses against 2 of the best HW's ever. Then he comes back, 2 1/2 years off, and we all expected the same thing every other time he's been out for a grip: Come back like he never missed a step and looked even better than before.

    Unfortunately, Francis got his groove back and he's no fucking joke. This is why I like seeing the best of the best fight. But I'm also not a fan who writes a 9 paragraph essay going "Oh he wasn't as good as everyone made him out to be" For me Cain is the elite. If everyone is healthy, in their prime, etc. I see Cain as the best of all time.
    Prove it. Where is the proof that Cain is unstoppable? Prove that he is the best of all time? He's a good fighter who never proved himself to be great, but everyone seems to want to give him the credit for it anyway. Overeem might've been the best if he had a chin. Cain might've been the best if he wasn't always injured. Nobody goes around making excuses for Overeem though. Cain never proved he was the best, he has two genuinely big wins in his career about a guy who is now mostly seen more as a limited gatekeeper than anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    Cain's fragility is what hurts him in the GOAT argument for me. When he's on he's clearly one of the best ever.

    The two shellackings over (prime) JDS shouldn't be downplayed either. The first time everyone insisted JDS was unbeatable and Cain 10-8'ed every round. In fact JDS hasn't been quite the same ever since. Cain's a scary dude.
    Why 'clearly'? He traded wins and losses with JDS. He came out on top, but he got knocked out inside 1 minute, that's happened to him twice now.

    Name me someone in the GOAT conversation in ANY division that has two knockout losses inside of a minute. It's widely accepted that Fedor is absolutely shot to bits and even he doesn't quite have that. And with Cain, not only is he 'in the conversation', Anik said on his way to the octagon that he's 'many people's consensus pick for all time heavyweight great', not 'potential heavyweight great if his body wasn't such a wreck'. What has he done to earn that distinction over people who have put together solid records of actual results? Not fantasy results, but actual results. You don't get to be the consensus pick of greatest of all time for what you could've achieved. I'd argue that Cain's record wouldn't even have him in the Top 5 heavyweights.
    Last edited by Mik; Yesterday at 12:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I'm not questioning his gas tank, I'm saying that his gas tank is unproven. He's gone to the distance twice. Everyone seems desperate to use that as his excuse for being beat off Werdum, my point is that on his night, he's pretty equivalent to Werdum. I think that he'd trade wins and losses with him.



    Prove it. Where is the proof that Cain is unstoppable? Prove that he is the best of all time? He's a good fighter who never proved himself to be great, but everyone seems to want to give him the credit for it anyway. Overeem might've been the best if he had a chin. Cain might've been the best if he wasn't always injured. Nobody goes around making excuses for Overeem though. Cain never proved he was the best, he has two genuinely big wins in his career about a guy who is now mostly seen more as a limited gatekeeper than anything else.
    I never said he was unstoppable. Who at HW is unstoppable? Cormier? I would have loved a DC v. Cain fight.

    People do go around making excuses for Overeem, they talk about how long he's been doing this while gassing up accomplishments like being the Dream, Strikeforce, and K-1 HW champion at the same time.

    How did Cain not prove he was the best? He avenged his loss to JDS twice, in brutal fucking fashion. He fought contenders and more often than not made it look easy. We can sit here and dissect every single fighter's ability till we're blue in the face; Big Nog was past his prime, Browne wasn't that good, JDS was this, Lesnar was that.....It wasn't like Cain struggled in these victories. He went in and destroyed Lesnar. He destroyed Browne. Everyone but a few guys he made it look easy and that's how he proved he's ELITE. Some might not agree he's the goat, that's fine, but to act like this guy was never as good as his peers and respected people in the game say he is.....idk.

    He lost to Werdum, who imo is one of the best ever, and now he just lost to arguably the deadliest striker in the HW division. I'm not negative to those defeats like you are being right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Why 'clearly'? He traded wins and losses with JDS. He came out on top, but he got knocked out inside 1 minute, that's happened to him twice now.

    Name me someone in the GOAT conversation in ANY division that has two knockout losses inside of a minute. It's widely accepted that Fedor is absolutely shot to bits and even he doesn't quite have that. And with Cain, not only is he 'in the conversation', Anik said on his way to the octagon that he's 'many people's consensus pick for all time heavyweight great', not 'potential heavyweight great if his body wasn't such a wreck'. What has he done to earn that distinction over people who have put together solid records of actual results? Not fantasy results, but actual results. You don't get to be the consensus pick of greatest of all time for what you could've achieved. I'd argue that Cain's record wouldn't even have him in the Top 5 heavyweights.
    The 2nd and 3rd fights were far more telling than the first in terms of who was the far superior fighter. The only thing to be taken from their first fight was that HW is dangerous and they hit hard.

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    I quite agree Mark.

    Nash, bullshit. Nobody is calling Overeem the greatest heavyweight of all time.

    Cain gets given a fantasy accolade because of things that he could may have done, but never actually did do in the octagon. Even if you take the context of who he fought out, he beat Brock Lesnar, Junior Dos Santos, Antonio Silva, Travis Browne, Ben Rothwell, Big Nog and Cheick Kongo.

    He has wins against exactly 7 recognisable names to show for his career at heavyweight.

    Werdum (Travis Browne, Cain, Fedor, Mark Hunt, Big Nog, Roy Nelson, Big Foot Silva, Overeem, Gonzaga, Brandon Vera), put him 100% undeniably ahead of Cain on the list.

    Overeem (Werdum, Hunt, JDS, Arlovski, Nelson, Mir, Lesnar, Rogers, Kharitonov, Mir), put Overeem about level with Cain to me. He beat more top guys, including one that Cain beat, but he lost to more too.

    Cormier (Bigfoot, Barnett, Mir, Nelson, Miocic), less wins than Cain, but his two best (Barnett and Miocic) are as good as Cain's two best (Miocic beat JDS and I think Barnett would've smashed Lesnar) and the fact that Cormier has never lost puts him ahead of Cain for me.

    Miocic (beat Nelson, Gonzaga, Hunt, Arlovski, Werdum, Overeem, Dos Santos and big Francis)...beat two people that beat Cain, it's undeniable that his record is better than Cain's.

    At this point here I'm struggling to justify Cain's inclusion in this modern generation's UFC top 5 heavyweights, let alone taking into account the likes of Fedor, Big Nog and Cro Cop who won fought more consistently, won more frequently, against arguably tougher competition (comparatively) and for a MUCH longer time.

    Which other division is the person with arguably the 7th or 8th best record continuously lauded as the 'greatest of all time'?

    In his PRIME, he got knocked out by JDS in under a minute and got pieced up by a beyond his prime Fabricio Werdum. The whole 'on his best day he could beat everyone', is not exclusive to Cain but to probably about 10 heavyweights in the history of the division.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I quite agree Mark.

    Nash, bullshit. Nobody is calling Overeem the greatest heavyweight of all time.

    Cain gets given a fantasy accolade because of things that he could may have done, but never actually did do in the octagon. Even if you take the context of who he fought out, he beat Brock Lesnar, Junior Dos Santos, Antonio Silva, Travis Browne, Ben Rothwell, Big Nog and Cheick Kongo.

    He has wins against exactly 7 recognisable names to show for his career at heavyweight.

    Werdum (Travis Browne, Cain, Fedor, Mark Hunt, Big Nog, Roy Nelson, Big Foot Silva, Overeem, Gonzaga, Brandon Vera), put him 100% undeniably ahead of Cain on the list.

    Overeem (Werdum, Hunt, JDS, Arlovski, Nelson, Mir, Lesnar, Rogers, Kharitonov, Mir), put Overeem about level with Cain to me. He beat more top guys, including one that Cain beat, but he lost to more too.

    Cormier (Bigfoot, Barnett, Mir, Nelson, Miocic), less wins than Cain, but his two best (Barnett and Miocic) are as good as Cain's two best (Miocic beat JDS and I think Barnett would've smashed Lesnar) and the fact that Cormier has never lost puts him ahead of Cain for me.

    Miocic (beat Nelson, Gonzaga, Hunt, Arlovski, Werdum, Overeem, Dos Santos and big Francis)...beat two people that beat Cain, it's undeniable that his record is better than Cain's.

    At this point here I'm struggling to justify Cain's inclusion in this modern generation's UFC top 5 heavyweights, let alone taking into account the likes of Fedor, Big Nog and Cro Cop who won fought more consistently, won more frequently, against arguably tougher competition (comparatively) and for a MUCH longer time.

    Which other division is the person with arguably the 7th or 8th best record continuously lauded as the 'greatest of all time'?

    In his PRIME, he got knocked out by JDS in under a minute and got pieced up by a beyond his prime Fabricio Werdum. The whole 'on his best day he could beat everyone', is not exclusive to Cain but to probably about 10 heavyweights in the history of the division.
    You said people don't go around making excuses for Overeem when in fact they do make excuses.

    You're right, on his best day he could beat everyone is not exclusive to Cain. It applies to GSP, BJ Penn, Jon Jones, etc.

    For me though, if I had every top HW in their prime going at it, I'd put all my money on Cain. What he does in the cage, his skillset, overall imo the best HW.

    And this is in no way shape or form saying there is no other argument.

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    They don’t make excuses up for Overeem. If you did a poll on any MMA website about who IS the best heavyweight of all time, Fedor and Cain would split the vote, Overeem wouldn’t come close. Fedor on merit, Cain on perceived potential.

    Difference between the names you listed and Cain was that they DID dominate their division for a prolonged period of time. Cain didn’t, hasn’t and never will. The fact that you put him in the same breath says everything I need to say about how overrated he is.

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    Heavyweight is an interesting one because Fedor's 3 defeats in Strikeforce put his legacy in enough doubt where it can be disputed, somehow, that he's not the greatest heavyweight of all time. Anderson's losses haven't done that to him at middleweight for example. It's Anderson, with Jacare, Romero, Whitaker, Rockhold, Franklin, Bisping and Weidman in the pack behind with wins against each other, and a couple with wins over the GOAT of the division. Nobody's disputing Whittaker as the best in divisional history despite big wins, because he just doesn't have the resume. You can argue that he's not outright #2 as well. Arguing for Cain would be debating one of those guys has unseated Anderson as the greatest middleweight - resume says they haven't. And I say that acknowledging that half those guys, prime vs. prime, would be fancied against Silva. The actual wins just don't add up to Anderson's.

    Welterweight is completely different. GSP, Hughes, Woodley is quite a clear order for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    They don’t make excuses up for Overeem. If you did a poll on any MMA website about who IS the best heavyweight of all time, Fedor and Cain would split the vote, Overeem wouldn’t come close. Fedor on merit, Cain on perceived potential.

    Difference between the names you listed and Cain was that they DID dominate their division for a prolonged period of time. Cain didn’t, hasn’t and never will. The fact that you put him in the same breath says everything I need to say about how overrated he is.
    Why did it take Frances stopping him for this to be such a strong debate? Had he won I doubt you would have gone to these lengths to explain why he isn't.

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    I’ve consistently talked about how I think Cain is overrated on here. This loss is just more fuel for my argument. It wasn’t even the fact that he lost, it’s that he lost fighting like an idiot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I’ve consistently talked about how I think Cain is overrated on here. This loss is just more fuel for my argument. It wasn’t even the fact that he lost, it’s that he lost fighting like an idiot.
    The fuck you mean fighting like an idiot? I would love to see your MMA fights.

    I get it, you don't think Cain is awesome, but it wasn't like he walked up to Ngannou with his hands down Diaz style and took a nap lol.

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    His knee actually popped out before Francis hit him the first time. So if by fighting like an idiot you mean he hurt himself in typical Cain Velasquez fashion then I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    His knee actually popped out before Francis hit him the first time. So if by fighting like an idiot you mean he hurt himself in typical Cain Velasquez fashion then I agree.
    And the funny thing is, Cain and others are saying he was actually clipped and THEN his knee fucked up as well. So this was sort of in a way like when Gonzaga headkick murdered Cro Cop then Cro tore the shit out of his ACL on the way down.

    But yeah, I still don't how he was fighting like an IDIOT. The fight was 26 seconds, not much room to gauge how stupid his gameplan turned out.

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    I wouldn't really compare Cain's loss to Cro Cop's... CC got KO'd dead and hurt his knee falling on it unconscious. Cain's popped out first, leading to him falling and then getting TKO'd.

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