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Thread: A thread about the English national football team.

  1. #801
    Window Licker MikeHunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Really? Given that Hart had fuck all to do all game, what about that performance makes you think Scotland would be able to get a goal? Even if England play shit you're unlikely to win, because however bad we are, you're worse. And you say England fans are deluded?
    I was joking moron.

  2. #802
    Simon
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    Yeah it was a joke course it was.

  3. #803
    Window Licker MikeHunt's Avatar
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    croatia
    Grrrrrrrrrrrcuntrrrrrrrrrrr

  4. #804
    Simon
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    Malta ffs. MALTA.

  5. #805
    WWF Champion
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    2-1 to us at 9/1 - profit on that.

  6. #806
    Furry, Filthy and Fun Badger's Avatar
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    Now that's more like it!

  7. #807
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    palestine
    England are such fucking garbage.

  8. #808
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Malta ffs. MALTA.
    Yeah... You can probably guess the response I gave to the mail I got from the FA three weeks ago asking me to spend 50 quid to see England vs Malta in BFS's first home game as manager.

    Has there ever been a worse way to spend 50 quid??

  9. #809
    RFF WORLDWIDE WESTERN CON son_of_foley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefy View Post
    Yeah... You can probably guess the response I gave to the mail I got from the FA three weeks ago asking me to spend 50 quid to see England vs Malta in BFS's first home game as manager.

    Has there ever been a worse way to spend 50 quid??
    You bloody showed do-not-reply@fa.com what for!

  10. #810
    The Rosk
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    Beefy - you happy I imagine?

    "Sam Allardyce says it is "not for me to say" where Wayne Rooney plays after starting his England reign with a 1-0 World Cup qualifying win in Slovakia."

  11. #811
    Simon
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    Crazy that he said that.

  12. #812
    Ironclad Contract RuneEdge's Avatar
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    Is it? I mean, if you want to play him as a striker, but his club manager decides to play him in midfield week in week out, what's Big Sam supposed to do?

  13. #813
    Simon
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    It wasn't to do with where he plays for his club. Allardyce literally said:

    Wayne played wherever he wanted. He was brilliant and controlled midfield. I can’t stop Wayne playing there[...]So, when he is using his experience and playing as a team member, it’s not for me to say where he’s going to play[...]he reads a game as he reads it. He read it very well, we won and dominated. I must admit, he did play a little deeper than I thought he’d play.
    At best he actually allowed Rooney a free role and chose his words very poorly. At worst, he just admitted that even though he's the manager, Rooney's authority overrides his own. The fact that him claiming Rooney was brilliant wasn't even close to being the most embarrassing bit of that comment says a lot.
    Last edited by Simon; September 5th, 2016 at 5:16 AM.

  14. #814
    Ironclad Contract RuneEdge's Avatar
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    Ah ok.

  15. #815
    Simon
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    I'm really surprised Allardyce said that. For all his failings, he hasn't tended to slip up with stupid comments over the years, has he? But in the space of two days right at the start of his England reign, he's said he would be happy with a point against Slovakia despite knowing that barely two months ago England were booed off for that same result at the Euros, and now this.

  16. #816
    Ironclad Contract RuneEdge's Avatar
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    The stronger personality was probably one of the main reasons why people wanted him for the job in the first place. Kinda hard to believe anything will improve with the national team.

  17. #817
    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    I'm really surprised Allardyce said that. For all his failings, he hasn't tended to slip up with stupid comments over the years, has he? But in the space of two days right at the start of his England reign, he's said he would be happy with a point against Slovakia despite knowing that barely two months ago England were booed off for that same result at the Euros, and now this.
    I think this is one of Englands problems though personally. Slovakia are the next strongest team in the group. A point away is not a bad result at all but everyone demands/expects England to win. Obviously everyone wants them to win and it wasnt the best comment to make but the funny part is the comments were actually true, it wouldnt have been a bad result.

  18. #818
    Simon
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    It wouldn't have been a bad result only insofar as no individual result is likely to make any difference because the quality overall is so low and it's so easy to qualify. We could lose to Malta and it probably won't make any difference in the grand scheme of things, doesn't stop it being a bad result. Realistically, a limited team like Slovakia who have no interest in attacking should be beaten. Not battered, but beaten. A draw would have been a bad result given the gap in quality, regardless of how it affects things overall. Not because England are good, but because Slovakia are crap.
    Last edited by Simon; September 5th, 2016 at 5:41 AM.

  19. #819
    RFF WORLDWIDE WESTERN CON son_of_foley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    It wouldn't have been a bad result only insofar as no individual result is likely to make any difference because the quality overall is so low and it's so easy to qualify. We could lose to Malta and it probably won't make any difference in the grand scheme of things, doesn't stop it being a bad result. Realistically, a limited team like Slovakia who have no interest in attacking should be beaten. Not battered, but beaten. A draw would have been a bad result given the gap in quality, regardless of how it affects things overall.
    So you think anything below a 100% record would be bad seeing as this was probably one of the most difficult games

  20. #820
    Simon
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    Quote Originally Posted by son_of_foley View Post
    So you think anything below a 100% record would be bad seeing as this was probably one of the most difficult games
    No of course not - it's acceptable to have the odd bad result in any long-form league system. Doesn't mean it's not a bad result taken in isolation.

  21. #821
    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    It wouldn't have been a bad result only insofar as no individual result is likely to make any difference because the quality overall is so low and it's so easy to qualify. We could lose to Malta and it probably won't make any difference in the grand scheme of things, doesn't stop it being a bad result. Realistically, a limited team like Slovakia who have no interest in attacking should be beaten. Not battered, but beaten. A draw would have been a bad result given the gap in quality, regardless of how it affects things overall. Not because England are good, but because Slovakia are crap.
    Slovakia aint crap though. Thats the issue. Lots of people seem to think its 1996. Slovakia are a decent if workmanlike side. They are always hard to break down. There really isnt that much a gap in quality though. The way English players get hyped up makes people think there is a big gap but its really not the case.

  22. #822
    Simon
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    They were bollocks, they had nothing - just like at the Euros. Skrtel is their captain and by my count should have had three yellows and a straight red, he was made to look like a clown by a woefully out-of-form Kane. Hamsik was neat and tidy but pretty much on the fringes. They were well organised and played the ball out neatly on occasion, but if a team sets up exclusively to defend for 90 minutes the opposition cannot consider it a decent result if they don't manage to grab a winner.

    I don't see how drawing with a team who had no interest in winning can be seen as anything other than a bad result - it's not a question of overhyping England or underestimating Slovakia, those are easy things to say if you want to undermine someone's argument because they play into the (incorrect) stereotype of what England fans think like...it's just completely obvious that if you're playing against a team with that limited an attacking intent, you should consider a draw a bad result. That's not to say it is necessarily a bad performance - you could batter them for 90 minutes and be incredibly unlucky not to score - but it's still a bad result.

  23. #823
    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    They were bollocks, they had nothing - just like at the Euros. Skrtel is their captain and by my count should have had three yellows and a straight red, he was made to look like a clown by a woefully out-of-form Kane. Hamsik was neat and tidy but pretty much on the fringes. They were well organised and played the ball out neatly on occasion, but if a team sets up exclusively to defend for 90 minutes the opposition cannot consider it a decent result if they don't manage to grab a winner.

    I don't see how drawing with a team who had no interest in winning can be seen as anything other than a bad result - it's not a question of overhyping England or underestimating Slovakia, those are easy things to say if you want to undermine someone's argument because they play into the (incorrect) stereotype of what England fans think like...it's just completely obvious that if you're playing against a team with that limited an attacking intent, you should consider a draw a bad result. That's not to say it is necessarily a bad performance - you could batter them for 90 minutes and be incredibly unlucky not to score - but it's still a bad result.
    I disagree entirely. If a team sets up to defend then it is always hard to break a team like that down. It happens all the time in loads of games both domestic and international yet when it happens to England it always seems to be deemed a disaster.

    Slovakia are a decent team at defending and breaking when need be.

  24. #824
    Andy
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    The Allardyce quotes are truly baffling. The ONE THING you'd expect from Allardyce is that he won't take any shit and he'd stick to his principles. And yet, one game in and he's played Rooney in a terrible position and said he can't stop him playing there or whatever the exact quote was. Really really grim times.

  25. #825
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    Slovakia are crap, MMH. Like proper crap.

  26. #826
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    Nah we're proper crap. Slovakia are average.

  27. #827
    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefy View Post
    Slovakia are crap, MMH. Like proper crap.
    So are England! What is wrong with you people? Can you not see what is right in front of your eyes and has been for like 20 odd years?

  28. #828
    What'cha gonna do? RFF Champ's Avatar
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    Allardyce is probably working everyone as he wants to be different and 'remove the shackles'. It's highly unlikely he goes all week without speaking to Rooney.

  29. #829
    Simon
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMH View Post
    So are England! What is wrong with you people? Can you not see what is right in front of your eyes and has been for like 20 odd years?
    England are obviously a better team than Slovakia. Slovakia acknowledged this with their setup in the two games over the past couple of months. There's nothing about the last twenty years that suggests England are at the level of Slovakia. You don't have to be a deluded England superfan to recognise that as true. England are mediocre. Slovakia are worse.

  30. #830
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    England are obviously a better team than Slovakia. Slovakia acknowledged this with their setup in the two games over the past couple of months. There's nothing about the last twenty years that suggests England are at the level of Slovakia. You don't have to be a deluded England superfan to recognise that as true. England are mediocre. Slovakia are worse.
    They have both won the same amount during that time. Probably got as far as each other in tournaments too.

    Obviously England on paper are better, realistically though there aint that much between the two. the past two games between them have resulted in a draw and a last minute win for England.

    I keep seeing/hearing people say that England should be better than what they are as they have quality players. Where are they? The more people keep thinking stuff like that the less likely England are to do anything of note.

    Slovakia at least play as a team and stick to what they are supposed to do.

  31. #831
    The Rosk
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    You all have to remember that MMH officially loves anything to do with Eastern European football.

  32. #832
    RFF WORLDWIDE WESTERN CON son_of_foley's Avatar
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    Rooney saying everybody was over-reacting was good. I liked that.

  33. #833
    Simon
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMH View Post
    They have both won the same amount during that time. Probably got as far as each other in tournaments too.
    England have qualified for every World Cup in the past twenty years and have a fantastic record in qualifying generally, particularly in recent years. Slovakia have qualified for one World Cup in that same time and got to the last 16. England have only failed to reach that point once (2014).

    England have qualified for five of the six European Championships in the past twenty years and have a fantastic record in qualifying generally, particularly in recent years. Slovakia have qualified for one European Championship in that same time and got to the last 16. England have reached that level or better every year except 2000 and the year they didn't qualify.

    Basing it on how many tournaments each has won is a ridiculous argument, by that logic Everton are no better than my Sunday league team - neither of them have won the Premier League, so they're the same.


    Obviously England on paper are better, realistically though there aint that much between the two. the past two games between them have resulted in a draw and a last minute win for England.
    Two games in which Slovakia have not tried to score. They came for a point on both occasions because they knew England were the better team.

    I keep seeing/hearing people say that England should be better than what they are as they have quality players. Where are they? The more people keep thinking stuff like that the less likely England are to do anything of note.
    No one thinks this any more. This is a dated view of England fans that hasn't been accurate in years. Being completely honest, I think this argument says more about your bias towards small European teams than it does about deluded England fans.

    This has become a much bigger point than I originally intended. Allardyce said he would be happy with a point against Slovakia, and the fact that Slovakia played the way they did - having done exactly the same at the Euros - shows that England can only have been disappointed with that result, seeing as it was the minimum they could realistically expect to get given that Slovakia were never going to try to score.

  34. #834
    RFF WORLDWIDE WESTERN CON son_of_foley's Avatar
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    It's not a dated view of English fans. The majority still believe there are quality players in that team.

  35. #835
    Simon
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    The majority absolutely do not expect us to do anything at tournaments now, and haven't since Hodgson took over, arguably longer ago than that. It's completely outdated. You get the Talksport dickheads of course, but they're a small minority. The average England fan view of the squad is one of resigned indifference - we watch, we support, but we do not expect anything more than last 16 or quarter finals at major tournaments.

    MMH is maybe right in that England fans expect better than getting knocked out to Iceland in the last 16, but then they should. That's not an unrealistic expectation. The general view is that England will generally get out of the group stages then lose to the first good team they play. And that's usually correct - Iceland was a rare aberration in that respect.
    Last edited by Simon; September 6th, 2016 at 5:35 AM.

  36. #836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    England have qualified for every World Cup in the past twenty years and have a fantastic record in qualifying generally, particularly in recent years. Slovakia have qualified for one World Cup in that same time and got to the last 16. England have only failed to reach that point once (2014).

    England have qualified for five of the six European Championships in the past twenty years and have a fantastic record in qualifying generally, particularly in recent years. Slovakia have qualified for one European Championship in that same time and got to the last 16. England have reached that level or better every year except 2000 and the year they didn't qualify.

    Basing it on how many tournaments each has won is a ridiculous argument, by that logic Everton are no better than my Sunday league team - neither of them have won the Premier League, so they're the same.

    Two games in which Slovakia have not tried to score. They came for a point on both occasions because they knew England were the better team.

    No one thinks this any more. This is a dated view of England fans that hasn't been accurate in years. Being completely honest, I think this argument says more about your bias towards small European teams than it does about deluded England fans.

    This has become a much bigger point than I originally intended. Allardyce said he would be happy with a point against Slovakia, and the fact that Slovakia played the way they did - having done exactly the same at the Euros - shows that England can only have been disappointed with that result, seeing as it was the minimum they could realistically expect to get given that Slovakia were never going to try to score.
    I have no interest in Slovakia at all. As you say they are a dull side.

    But so are England. I dont think its a dated view of England fans at all. You hear it all the time, we should be beating this team, we should be beating that team, we have great players etc. They really dont. Yeah they usually qualify well, and they should be doing that but any time they have to do anything out of the ordinary they are fucked because the ability just isnt there. They are totally brainless players.

    Slovakia (and other teams) play within their means and play much better as a team than England do. They are a lot more savvy in what they do. Im sure they could go and attack the likes of England but that wouldnt work for them as they would get hit on the counter. This is why I am saying that there isnt a great deal of difference between an England and a Slovakia. England have better natural ability and more to pick from but these smaller teams play much smarter.

    Being a good side takes more than just attacking with intent.

  37. #837
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMH View Post
    So are England! What is wrong with you people? Can you not see what is right in front of your eyes and has been for like 20 odd years?
    This isn't an 'aren't England great' post but you just have to look at the two line-ups. Or more tellingly look at Slovakia's three games in the group stages of the Euros. Against Russia and Wales they attacked because they believe their players capable of getting results. Against England they didn't look to get out of their own half - even though a point wasn't enough to guarantee progress. Why did they do that if they didn't think that they were playing a much better team?

    Slovakia didn't stick all their players behind the ball because that is their natural way of playing. It is because their ambition against England was to hold them to a draw. They might had won it had they tried.

  38. #838
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMH View Post
    I have no interest in Slovakia at all. As you say they are a dull side.

    But so are England. I dont think its a dated view of England fans at all. You hear it all the time, we should be beating this team, we should be beating that team, we have great players etc. They really dont. Yeah they usually qualify well, and they should be doing that but any time they have to do anything out of the ordinary they are fucked because the ability just isnt there. They are totally brainless players.

    Slovakia (and other teams) play within their means and play much better as a team than England do. They are a lot more savvy in what they do. Im sure they could go and attack the likes of England but that wouldnt work for them as they would get hit on the counter. This is why I am saying that there isnt a great deal of difference between an England and a Slovakia. England have better natural ability and more to pick from but these smaller teams play much smarter.

    Being a good side takes more than just attacking with intent.
    England have a far better team than Slovakia do. If you don't share that viewpoint then fair enough but that's where this conversation falls down.

  39. #839
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMH View Post
    I have no interest in Slovakia at all. As you say they are a dull side.

    But so are England. I dont think its a dated view of England fans at all. You hear it all the time, we should be beating this team, we should be beating that team, we have great players etc. They really dont. Yeah they usually qualify well, and they should be doing that but any time they have to do anything out of the ordinary they are fucked because the ability just isnt there. They are totally brainless players.

    Slovakia (and other teams) play within their means and play much better as a team than England do. They are a lot more savvy in what they do. Im sure they could go and attack the likes of England but that wouldnt work for them as they would get hit on the counter. This is why I am saying that there isnt a great deal of difference between an England and a Slovakia. England have better natural ability and more to pick from but these smaller teams play much smarter.

    Being a good side takes more than just attacking with intent.
    Tell me which Slovakia players could get into the England team.

  40. #840
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    Beefy and RP, you are basically proving the point I am making there!

    Its not about the players its about the team as a whole, something that English people seem to struggle with.

    This is why England will always struggle with a mindset like that.

  41. #841
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    There's no such thing as a "team as a whole". Football isn't and never has been, a game about a whole being bigger than the sum of its parts. Never happened. Tactics, yeah, fair enough. Wishy-washy stuff about intangibles... nah. Anyone can beat anyone on the day due to the nature of the sport but the best team always wins out in the long-run. Leicester were the best team in England last year because they had the best combination of players and tactics and they therefore won the league.

    England are a better team than Slovakia because they have at least eight or nine better players than Slovakia do. Slovakia know this hence their unwillingness to try to score any goals when the two teams meet.

  42. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefy View Post
    There's no such thing as a "team as a whole". Football isn't and never has been, a game about a whole being bigger than the sum of its parts. Never happened. Tactics, yeah, fair enough. Wishy-washy stuff about intangibles... nah.

    England are a better team than Slovakia because they have at least eight or nine better players than Slovakia do. Slovakia know this hence their unwillingness to try to play score any goals when the two teams meet.


    Yeah alright then. You can throw Leicester in there too. Portugal this year is another one.

    I’m not bothered if England make the same mistakes every single year about saying they have better players etc. But if they keep ignoring what goes wrong then they are destined to make the same mistakes over and over.

  43. #843
    Simon
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    MMH I agree that Beefy and RP are aiding your point by focusing on the individuals rather than the team, and I don't agree with Beefy's assessment above at all - but I still think that this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefy View Post
    Why did they do that if they didn't think that they were playing a much better team?
    ...needs to be answered. And if you acknowledge that England are the superior team, playing against a side who only care about keeping a clean sheet, then how can only getting a point be considered anything other than a disappointment? As I said before, barring calamity it was pretty much the minimum England could expect to get given that Slovakia had no interest in attacking.

  44. #844
    RFF WORLDWIDE WESTERN CON son_of_foley's Avatar
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    It's an away game against the 2nd seeds in the group right? So on paper the 'hardest' game so I think it's entirely appropriate to say a point isn't a bad start because everything after that should be easier. MMH already said that right?

    Also they may have sat back because they thought we are more than capable of containing England and we'll hit them on the break. Losing their captain with that 35 minutes to go probably impacted any desire they had to hit on the counter as the game went on.

  45. #845
    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    MMH I agree that Beefy and RP are aiding your point by focusing on the individuals rather than the team, and I don't agree with Beefy's assessment above at all - but I still think that this:



    ...needs to be answered. And if you acknowledge that England are the superior team, playing against a side who only care about keeping a clean sheet, then how can only getting a point be considered anything other than a disappointment? As I said before, barring calamity it was pretty much the minimum England could expect to get given that Slovakia had no interest in attacking.
    Well if they are playing for a draw/clean sheet, and they are evidently good at keeping a clean sheet (hence why they managed it the last time they played) combined with the fact that they are the second seed in the group and the game is away from home then surely a point would be par for the course more than anything and anything else is a bonus.

    England have shown time and time again that they struggle to break teams down. With that in mind what would have been wrong with a draw? Instead they HAVE to beat "shit" like Slovakia. Its such an English football fan way of looking at it.

    Football isnt just about attacking as daft as that sounds. With England I think thats the main problem. Every pass is one that is forced in an attempt to go forwards

    By the way..they won!

  46. #846
    The 'me' in 'team' Dreyski's Avatar
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    ukraine
    Well, if the FA are looking for pointers, when Blackburn Rovers sacked Allardyce, he was replaced by Steve Kean

  47. #847
    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    Has Glen Johnson really been selected in the England squad again?

    Like, no joking?

  48. #848
    Classy new Stevie
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    Another new era for English football.

  49. #849
    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    He was shite in his "prime"!

    Absolute madness.

  50. #850
    Simon
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    That's not true at all. Don't think he has any place in the current England squad - the current field of right backs is pretty weak beyond Walker and Clyne, but I'd have had Adam Smith, Joel Ward and Sam Byram ahead of him, probably Danny Simpson too - but Johnson was generally pretty good throughout his career in the Prem bar one very poor run with Liverpool, and was consistently solid for England even when everyone around him was completely shit.

    Pretty depressing squad on paper, but a lot of the uninspiring call-ups are only there because of injuries. Johnson being the most obvious, but Jagielka still getting the nod isn't great either...then again, the pool of centre backs is pathetic - Smalling isn't playing regularly, Stones still has everything to prove and Cahill has gone over a cliff - I'd have got Michael Keane or Curtis Davies in ahead of him though. Lingard might surprise a few people, he's one of those that doesn't stand out as a small name in a United squad full of stars but he's a really decent player - maybe would have had Townsend or Redmond ahead of him for this squad, but I think he's good enough for England.

    This squad is missing Kane, Butland, Lallana, Welbeck and Clyne through injury, plus Shaw, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Wilshere, Barkley and Delph through lack of form/games, so it's understandable that the squad looks a little weak. We should still have more than enough to win the two upcoming games, and hopefully after that a couple of the new faces will have shown they're good enough - then a few months down the line when those injured players are back, we'll have a bigger pool of established players to choose from.
    Last edited by Simon; October 3rd, 2016 at 5:15 AM.

  51. #851
    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    Oh come on Simon. Johnson was a laughable player. Half decent going forward, he was an abomination defensively. He had a good year at Portsmouth once.

  52. #852
    Window Licker MikeHunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    That's not true at all. Don't think he has any place in the current England squad - the current field of right backs is pretty weak beyond Walker and Clyne, but I'd have had Adam Smith, Joel Ward and Sam Byram ahead of him, probably Danny Simpson too - but Johnson was generally pretty good throughout his career in the Prem bar one very poor run with Liverpool, and was consistently solid for England even when everyone around him was completely shit.

    Pretty depressing squad on paper, but a lot of the uninspiring call-ups are only there because of injuries. Johnson being the most obvious, but Jagielka still getting the nod isn't great either...then again, the pool of centre backs is pathetic - Smalling isn't playing regularly, Stones still has everything to prove and Cahill has gone over a cliff - I'd have got Michael Keane or Curtis Davies in ahead of him though. Lingard might surprise a few people, he's one of those that doesn't stand out as a small name in a United squad full of stars but he's a really decent player - maybe would have had Townsend or Redmond ahead of him for this squad, but I think he's good enough for England.

    This squad is missing Kane, Butland, Lallana, Welbeck and Clyne through injury, plus Shaw, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Wilshere, Barkley and Delph through lack of form/games, so it's understandable that the squad looks a little weak. We should still have more than enough to win the two upcoming games, and hopefully after that a couple of the new faces will have shown they're good enough - then a few months down the line when those injured players are back, we'll have a bigger pool of established players to choose from.
    English or Irish? English or Irish? You're a fucking scum bag.

  53. #853
    Simon
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    Not at all. He had a spell near the end of his Liverpool career where he went to shit, but other than that he was consistently decent. Not a top class player by any means and he was a drop in quality as the long-term successor to Neville for England, but he was hardly shit. As I mentioned before he never let England down during 50 odd caps during which time basically everyone else did.

  54. #854
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    I have never been convinced by Glen Johnson for England, if anything he would be better as a midfielder.

  55. #855
    RFF WORLDWIDE WESTERN CON son_of_foley's Avatar
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    Probably would have called up Callum Wilson if it was me

  56. #856
    Simon
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    He's looking good at the moment but Deeney has to be ahead of him IMO

  57. #857
    RFF WORLDWIDE WESTERN CON son_of_foley's Avatar
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    I would have brought Deeney to Euros. I think now you give Wilson a go as he's potentially going to be a big player in the next 2-3 years.

    Honestly believe Deeney is good enough to be in English squads.

  58. #858
    Simon
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    Deeney's problem is that we're relatively strong up front - we only play one up front and have Kane, Sturridge and Vardy ahead of him for that position, plus Welbeck and Rashford who can play in the central striker role...he deserves a chance to show what he can do at some point though, particularly given that for all their qualities I don't think Kane, Sturridge or Vardy have done especially well for England.

  59. #859
    Classy new Stevie
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    England played a game.

  60. #860
    Simon
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    Even by England standards that second half was laughably dull.

  61. #861
    Simon
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    Rooney to be dropped for Slovenia apparently. Good stuff.

  62. #862
    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    yugoslavia
    Thank fuck for that.

  63. #863
    Simon
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    Just in case you were worried about getting overexcited - likely Gary Cahill will be made captain.

  64. #864
    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    yugoslavia
    One step forward, 2 back.

    But really, what are the options? Is Henderson even a regular?

    I don't even know what the team is anymore, to be honest.

  65. #865
    Simon
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    Realistic options are Cahill, Henderson, Hart and Smalling. A couple of years down the road you'll be able to add Kane, Dier and Stones to that list I guess.

  66. #866
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    Either get Beckham back in or give the captaincy to the player with the most caps. This culture of 'THE ENGLAND CAPTAIN' is crippling.

  67. #867
    What'cha gonna do? RFF Champ's Avatar
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    canada
    The main consideration when making anyone England captain should be whether they can handle the increased media obligations.

  68. #868
    Simon
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    He may look like a posh seven year old boy, but Eric Dier would make a great captain one day.

  69. #869
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    The main consideration when making anyone England captain should be whether they can handle the increased media obligations.
    It should be whether they can put a piece of cloth around their arm. No more.

  70. #870
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    He may look like a posh seven year old boy, but Eric Dier would make a great captain one day.
    He cant get in the Spurs team though now can he?

  71. #871
    Simon
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    He was injured then on the bench for one game. He is absolute class.

  72. #872
    RFF WORLDWIDE WESTERN CON son_of_foley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefy View Post
    It should be whether they can put a piece of cloth around their arm. No more.
    Bit over simplified.

    A Captain sets the tone for behaviour and performance.

    Yes, you can have many leaders who aren't a captain but any good captain is normally revered by his team-mates.

    Your captain shouldn't be someone who is at risk of not getting game. They should be respected and able to influence their team mates.

  73. #873
    What'cha gonna do? RFF Champ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefy View Post
    It should be whether they can put a piece of cloth around their arm. No more.
    It has real life consequences though. The captain's workload is higher than the rest of the players.

  74. #874
    RFF WORLDWIDE WESTERN CON son_of_foley's Avatar
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    I would be willing to bet that Eric Dier plays better in a side without Rooney than with him. He seems to occupy spaces in and around Dier and gets in his way quite often

  75. #875
    RFF WORLDWIDE WESTERN CON son_of_foley's Avatar
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    I can honestly say that Northern Ireland have had a lot of captains who I absolutely adore

    Aaron Hughes
    Maik Taylor (know it wasnt very often for him)
    Stevie Davis

    That's been us for quite a long time really. I know our players aren't as under the threat of being replaced etc but you can't see Stevie D playing and say being captain doesn't mean or add anything. It has improved him and means the world to him.

  76. #876
    KIKI MUTEMBE BBF's Avatar
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    Maik Taylor is a Barnet legend and genuinely one of the nicest bloke's I've met. Haven't heard his name for ages, cheers sof.

  77. #877
    Simon
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    I know Beefy is a bit older than the rest of us but are we underestimating just how much older? First he said tactics are meaningless, now he reckons its captains that are unnecessary, I'm wondering if he was maybe born at the outset of football in China during the Han dynasty a few hundred years BC.

  78. #878
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    Quote Originally Posted by son_of_foley View Post
    Bit over simplified.

    A Captain sets the tone for behaviour and performance.

    Yes, you can have many leaders who aren't a captain but any good captain is normally revered by his team-mates.

    Your captain shouldn't be someone who is at risk of not getting game. They should be respected and able to influence their team mates.
    For a Club yeah, for England I'm not convinced - certainly this England team at this time. Other countries don't get into a state about who their Captain is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    It has real life consequences though. The captain's workload is higher than the rest of the players.
    Only because the FA choose to have that situation.

  79. #879
    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    This Rooney thing is so typical of English football.

    Nowhere else would make such a massive deal of if he was playing or not, he would just be benched and that would be it. Especially when you have the likes of Alli, Kane, Vardy or even Barkley to take his place.

    Its mad as he wont even be that much of a miss. Any other nation would just go with another option and if Rooney can play himself back in to form then great, he would be picked for the team again.

    Thats another England thing though. If a player goes through a bad patch he is "finished". Especially after a certain age.

    He has been dropped from the first team, he is still in the squad but all the talk in the media is of when other England captains were "finished" and who the next captain will be.

    Gareth Barry is a fine example to me. He was "finished" in 2010 because he had a poor game against Germany. he has been one of the most consistant midfielders in the Premier League for the past 2 years but doesnt get a sniff for the England team because he is too old.

    English football seems to be built on preconceived notions of what a player should be and they get typecast into certain roles. Nobody ever takes a proper look at what is in front of them, form doesnt seem to matter and players get shoehorned into a system instead of picking the best players for a system.

  80. #880
    I ate them before they ate me El Capitano Gatisto's Avatar
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    I think Barry's problem is not being too old but that Ozil made him look a man running through cement in the midst of a hurricane. He hasn't got any quicker since 2010.

    Rooney being dropped would be a big deal in any other country also. He's the record goalscorer and figurehead for the team going back 12 years, this would be news for any nation dropping a player of similar profile. It's still the right decision and has been a long time coming.

  81. #881
    Simon
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    Didn't realise Rooney has never been left out since his debut. Crazy really.

  82. #882
    What'cha gonna do? RFF Champ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon View Post
    Didn't realise Rooney has never been left out since his debut. Crazy really.
    Slovakia in the Euros?

  83. #883
    RFF WORLDWIDE WESTERN CON son_of_foley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefy View Post
    For a Club yeah, for England I'm not convinced - certainly this England team at this time. Other countries don't get into a state about who their Captain is.



    Only because the FA choose to have that situation.
    Are you saying you don't think they could benefit from a strong captain? This team full of young players? Are you a mental

  84. #884
    I'm always watching you.. MMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Capitano Gatisto View Post
    I think Barry's problem is not being too old but that Ozil made him look a man running through cement in the midst of a hurricane. He hasn't got any quicker since 2010.

    Rooney being dropped would be a big deal in any other country also. He's the record goalscorer and figurehead for the team going back 12 years, this would be news for any nation dropping a player of similar profile. It's still the right decision and has been a long time coming.
    I dont think it would be. If he was still performing then maybe but he isn't and that's not the end of the world as there should be other players to step in for him.

    England have always seemed to rely far too heavily on players who havnt really done much when they really needed to.

    More faith needs to be shown in other players and if Rooney can play his way back in then good for them.

    Yeah Barry has always been slow. The game isnt just about pace though.

  85. #885
    Simon
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    At least tonight's game has an element of intrigue now. If England suddenly become a fluent, quick side in attack, maybe we can start to imagine a better future again. Then when we go out in the groups in Russia, we can find a new hate figure. Marcus Rashford, what a cunt.

  86. #886
    Cirque du Soleil Chris's Avatar
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    Won't he just come back in to the team in the very next match, if not coming off the bench tonight? I'd be astonished if this is the beginning of the end. Is this not just aping Mourinho's approach - if he comes on and makes an impact, it looks like a good substitution. If he doesn't, then it justifies why he didn't start. The Guardian is saying that he requested to attend the news conference to directly talk about the decision to drop him. So while there's an obsession with him in the media, he definitely courts this attention and gets away with it by being seen as courageous. Same way he declared that he would retire from international football in 2 years, as if he knows he'll definitely still be in the mix by that point. We all know he will, and so does he.

  87. #887
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    Rooney does not court attention at all.

    Before the media obligations assigned when becoming England captain he did very few interviews.

  88. #888
    Simon
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    As bad as his performances have been I don't think you can really criticise him for anything off the field. He's fronted up to the interviews and said all the right things, and as has been pointed out he never cries off England duty like so many others have done. He's basically the model player except for the minor negative of being absolutely shit on the pitch.

    Oh and Alex I looked it up and apparently the 'never been dropped' thing doesn't include games he's been rested for...bit of a wishy-washy fact really.

  89. #889
    Simon
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    Such total bollocks.

  90. #890
    What'cha gonna do? RFF Champ's Avatar
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    Bring back Woy and Wayne.

  91. #891
    Defiance is a four letter
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    Well this is shit.

  92. #892
    Simon
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    EDIT Wrong thread, England are shit, so are Scotland.

  93. #893
    Simon
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    The Telegraph reckon Southgate's getting the job permanently.

  94. #894
    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    yugoslavia
    Good.

    I mean, why the fuck not?

  95. #895
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    Because he's not the best option.

    Or the second best option.

    Or the third best option.

    Or the and so forth and so forth.

  96. #896
    World Champion Murphy's Avatar
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    I've said before, I really don't think any of that shite matters. I think the last couple of decades has proven that.

    I mean, Capello was, on paper, an excellent choice, wasn't he? Don't believe we even made it to a quarter-final, did we. Wasn't Eriksson the last man to do that in 2002?

  97. #897
    Andy
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    I don't follow English youth football - does anyone know if the teams have any sort of identity yet? Until that happens not much will change. The summer was a complete shambles in that regard.

    It seems to be a fairly obvious statement that a team will improve it they play to their strengths and play the same way/have the same roles all the time. But England never seem to do that.

  98. #898
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    Murph, have you honestly reached the point of defeatism that you think the quality of a manager doesn't change the quality of the team?

  99. #899
    Simon
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    Yeah but that doesn't mean you just give up and put any old dickhead in charge. Just like any other team England need to strive to be better, and the manager situation is the one thing they're in control of - they can't create good players out of thin air, or force the media to stop creating an environment which prevents success...but they can spend money on getting a good manager in. That's one thing they do control, and Southgate is nowhere near the best candidate in England, let alone the world.

  100. #900
    Andy
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    I wouldn't have Southgate personally but I can see the appeal - he's in the system and has fully bought into what they're trying to do. He'll bring some youth through and has been working with the FA's 'vision' for years. That's been a big part of Wales' success IMO, getting young players lots of experience early and having them play in a consistent system and style.

    Who else is there though? Allardyce was a depressing appointment, Steve Bruce seemed to be second choice and he would've been completely uninspiring too. I'd like to see Hiddink given a shot personally but there's really not many people out there that you'd say are a great fit or would even be willing to do it given how far behind England seem to be compared to others.

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