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Thread: The Star Wars thread

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    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    The Star Wars thread

    Ok. This isn't about any particular movie or the tv series, but a ramble thread for people to talk about Star Wars.

    In various threads (and in the post-RAW chats that some of us have over msn) there has been a lot of talk about Star Wars lately. It's been about everything—what went wrong with the prequels, what should have been done and more general discussion—but it's been breaking out more frequently. This thread is to give an outlet for such chatter so that it doesn't bog down the threads where it breaks out (yesterday in the Top Artists thread in the music forum and currently in the VIP Thread up in the WWE forums.)


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    Hell is for Heroes Second City Saint's Avatar
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    Favorite scene out of all of them (shit quality unfortunately):

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm5wYRUN2-8[/ame]

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    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Some bits of the recent conversation from the VIP Thread:


    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    I've been seriously considering making a general Star Wars ramble thread. Don't know how much interest there would be, but I suspect OMG, Mike and I could keep it alive for a long time.

    Not like one of the movie threads, something all encompassing. Movies, Clone Wars, EU, what should have been done and general rambling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Second City Saint View Post
    I would be very much into that. Can Episode II be off limits, though?
    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    It's still something to discuss and dissect. At least to me it is. I don't like it, but there is some good stuff there. It's just saturated in CGI, with a poor script and helmed by a director that has no clue how to direct actors.
    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    I just find that we (and others) end up talking about Star Wars in the wrong places and have to abandon the topic and not really expand on it. Like in the artists thread today. There's a lot I could have talked about and expanded on in that, but didn't want to wreck a music thread any further.
    Quote Originally Posted by Second City Saint View Post
    I think the portrayal of Anakin Skywalker, whose later incarnation would be the most menacing figure in cinematic history, as a whiny emo teenager was sacrilege. Yeah yeah, I understand it was intended to be a necessary phase of Yoda's prophetic path to the dark side quip from Episode I but the way it played out and the wooden acting of Hayden Christiensen made it unbearable and borderline embarrassing.
    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    That's a major part of my main problem with the prequels. In the music thread I mentioned that they should have started with Obi-Wan as the master and Anakin as the padawan in Episode I. As some didn't seem to get what I meant, here's what I was saying:

    The one thing we never saw in the prequels, the one thing they should have been about, was the noble Jedi that Anakin was. Not a drippy nose kid, an angst ridden teen or a paranoid wank of a husband. We should have seen the noble Jedi that was Obi Wan's friend. We never really saw the good in him and that's a shame. If we were made to like Anakin before his fall, it would add all the more impact to it.

    By saying that Qui Jon shouldn't have been in it and that the series should have started with Obi Wan and Anakin, that means that Anakin would start out around Luke's age from A New Hope or Obi's from the start of Ep I. We'd then see their adventures together for two movies, where Anakin is a proper Jedi before his fall. As far as Yoda warning of training him, have Anakin tap into the darkside in a duel with Maul in Ep I to defeat him. That would be a huge red flag to the Jedi, presented properly, yet something that would be sympathetic to the audience. It would make sense for him to tap the dark side to save lives, even if it gave him an improper taste of power. Yoda wouldn't want to train his powers any further because of his failure and fear of him using his powers as such again, but Obi Wan would anyway.



    This is why I'm thinking about a thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Second City Saint View Post
    We're supposed to get fucked by snow but I'm not sure when it'll come about, might be now but I can't be bothered to lift the shade and turn on a light to see.

    It's an interesting scenario. My one qualm with it is that you throw out a key detail that gets overlooked because the prequels came out after the originals, that being Anakin's late start in jedi training which resulted in the development of feelings. The reason Anakin was so easily corrupted was his strong emotional connection with his mother and then after Padme. His willingness to betray the jedi order - his friends, his family - was rooted in his intense desire to save Padme. His passion betrays him and leads to his downfall, which is the story of Episodes I-III. E

    pisodes IV-VI tell the story of redemption; redemption for the Skywalker family and the jedi order. Luke's late beginning of training under Obi-Wan and later Yoda is entirely reminiscent of his father's. In fact, in Empire it appears Luke is destined to go down the same path as both showed a clear lack of patience and priorities towards loved ones over perfecting the harnessing of the force. The revelation that Darth Vader is in fact Anakin Skywalker rather than his killer as Luke had been told brought about fierce emotions a jedi would dismiss and a slight sense of betrayal by his former teacher. These emotions would explode in the final showdown between father and son as the emperor attempted to bait the younger Skywalker to the dark side. But just as it seemed Luke would succumb to the same fate as his father, he defied the emperor and proclaimed himself a jedi (one of the best scenes in the trilogy, let's be honest). Luke was strong enough to resist the temptation and thus was able to vanquish Dark Vader and reconcile Anakin Skywalker to redeem himself. It is here that Luke shows the strength of the force he possessed and his unwillingness to be corrupted - the difference between he and his father.

    Now if I read your post correctly, we would be void of this particular aspect were we to jump right into Anakin being Obi-Wan's padawan. The scenes where Anakin is tested by the council and Qui-Gon protests the decision to not train him are extremely important to both the character development of Anakin and Luke. Cutting those out would be like cutting out the prophet Elijah in Moby Dick.
    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    Just because you don't show him as a little kid being recruited doesn't mean it didn't happen. Like Joker in TDK, we don't see where he came from, but he's there. It's easy to bring up his late start (much more believable to me if he's a little kid and Luke's age) in his flirting with the dark side. It's part of Yoda's reservation in further training in my head/scenario. He never got training against the dark side, which would be a huge part of his formulative training were recruited at a younger age. Yoda warns of training him after he uses the dark side and Obi Wan ignores the warning as there is good in him, he sees his potential, understands his use of the dark side in a certain scenario and, moreso, because he's his friend.

    We didn't need prophecies, chosen ones or anything like that—that's just lazy writing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Second City Saint View Post
    I'm not necessarily saying it's required that he be a little kid, but I do think it's necessary to show how he started out. It is integral to the prequels to explicitly show that the roots of Anakin's demise were ever present. Something like that is too important to simply be alluded to, where as the origin of Joker's Glasgow Smile wasn't important in the slightest (though it made for nice dialogue when he'd bring up the various stories of its development).

    As far as him being the chosen one and all that, yeah, I can see that being tossed without losing anything, except it was kind of the backbone of Anakin's developed resentment toward Obi Wan, as he felt Obi Wan didn't want to be overshadowed by Anakin's potential power. You could of course, tweak it and, rather than have him be the one to bring balance to the force, simply be a powerful jedi because of an astronomical medichlorian count.
    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    If I had anything to do with it, midichlorians would have been a concept to die on the cutting room floor. The force never needed to, nor should it have been, explained. It had a religious aspect to it in the OT and that was lost in the prequels.

    As far as how Anakin started out, I agree. Have it be his first mission or something at the start. Or have him be a great star pilot when that Obi Wan meets because, you know... Not some kid who randomly and accidently blows up a space station.
    Quote Originally Posted by Second City Saint View Post
    I will not defend how he blew up the entire blockade and effectively disabled thousands of battle droids in a ship he first saw 10 minutes earlier.


    I do see your point with midichlorians and to be honest I never really considered how they changed the perception of the force; it was almost like a scientific explanation of it.

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    Hell is for Heroes Second City Saint's Avatar
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    I was going to post this in the amusing facebook conversations thread in the asylum but it would've been out of place and under appreciated. I think it has a home here though.

    http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1794889

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    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    The Veers and Han Solo ones are great.

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    Hell is for Heroes Second City Saint's Avatar
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    The Wedge one's my personal fav

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    for aiur grimshaw's Avatar
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    At what point do midichlorians 'explain the force'? In what way do they remove the religious/spiritual feeling?
    Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.
    That's the exposition of midichlorians. I don't like them, but I think the criticism levelled at them is for the wrong reasons. The explanation of midichlorians is no less mystical hocus-pocus than 'the force, its everywhere'. The problem with midichlorians is that there's nothing gained by having them there, it's just a plot device to talk about anakin's immaculate conception.

    UNLIMITED POWERRR

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    Old men talking! One Man Gang's Avatar
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    MUSIC

    Here are some music videos I made of either unreleased score by John Williams or unreleased cues added back into tracks. No complete recordings of the PT exists currently. The quality is as good as I could get it.


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    Legend Fro's Avatar
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    My biggest objection to the prequels is that they screwed up casting the most important role in the whole thing. Hayden sucked. If they cast Jude Law those last 2 flicks would have been leagues better.

    They did cast Obi Wan perfectly though.

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    Winston Nicks A Lilt. Alf's Avatar
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    The midi-chlorians thing just sapped the mystery of it. It was explained perfectly by Obi wan in the original trilogy... why did it need explaining further? It pissed me off so much.

    The entire prequels just butt-fucked the series. The originals were actually very well cast, acted, the direction is brilliant, the concepts tight, the script a little hokey but still quite tight, the action was thrilling, there was drama. It had everything. The prequels were awfully cast, the plot was pretty shite through-out... argh... just thinking about how much they fucked them up makes me angry. They could have been amazing, but no... Lucas went an raped it.

    I love the original lot. I grew up when they were being released, the toys were like crack for kids. They released the remastered versions on VHS when I was about 12. They released them one by one over a period of 6 months (one every two i think it was)... I saved like I have never saved before. Every saturday me and my dad would bop down to the supermarket, he would go off and shop and I'd go over tot he video section and just covet the Star Wars VHS. I saved and did little jobs and when I eventually had enough, on the Saturday we'd go shopping and I'd buy one... I'd meet him at the deli and we'd buy samosas... we'd then go home and sit down and watch them together while muching our samosas. Then I'd watch it over and over again. I'd then save for the next one... I was obsessed and I wanted to be a jedi more than anything.

    ...the prequels effectively diminish the light that shines out of the original trilogy. They are a travesty. The script is awful and acted awfully, the direction is bollocks. There's that sequence where Padme and Anakin are eating dinner in Clones... probably one of the most awful sequences commited to film. In Sith there's even more ridiculous faux-emotional bullshit that you can't get onboard with because of the awful acting. The scene where Anakin finally turns is ridiculously shit.

    I bought the original trilogy on DVD and they truly do still stand up today. Empire is still a fantastic film.
    Last edited by Alf; December 9th, 2009 at 11:35 AM.

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    RFF WORLDWIDE WESTERN CON son_of_foley's Avatar
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    My favourite was always Return of the Jedi but I was never massively into the series. I think stand-alone it's best

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    Old men talking! One Man Gang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fro View Post
    My biggest objection to the prequels is that they screwed up casting the most important role in the whole thing. Hayden sucked. If they cast Jude Law those last 2 flicks would have been leagues better.

    They did cast Obi Wan perfectly though.



    I wouldn't put so much of the blame on Hayden Christensen. The material he had to work with was atrocious. Anakin in AOTC was written as a whiny cunt. If he wasn't complaining then he was reciting horrible poetry to Padme or saying things like "grumpy" and "I wish I could wish away my feelings." Nobody could work with that. Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher were spared that sort of dialogue because TESB had different script writers and their situation was more bickering until they decided they were in love. And when they decided that, they didn't really talk about it per say but just kissed or said "i know." Since I've seen Christensen act reasonably well in Life As A House and Shattered Glass, the script shot every actor in the foot going into it.

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    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    I am most upset that I did not receive an invitation to this thread declaring that you would be honoured if I would join you...

    The Prequels had some bright spots, but they were mired in a lot of muck. Obi-Wan, as Fro said, was cast perfectly, and was fairly spot on for all he had to do in the story. Qui-Gon was great, and I enjoyed the hints of his already looking at the Force in a different way from the Jedi mainstream, though I agree with at it probably would have been better if Obi-Wan began as the master. Amidala, in the first film at least, was a pretty strong character as well, though leading a rebellion at 14 was pushing it a bit and since Portman was 16 during filming I don't know why they didn't bother just making that the character's age.

    The lynch-pin though, was Anakin, and as said by a lot of posters here, Lucas failed utterly with that character in every aspect. Casting, dialogue, actions, direction, everything Anakin did was amazingly wrong. I have no idea why Padme would like him in the least after he admits to slaughtering a village full of women and children. I have no idea why Obi-Wan would feel the slightest remorse or regret at having to chop his limbs off, or why he was even surprised and heart-broken when Anakin turned out to be a basket case Sith Lord. It's not as if he had not been talking to a brick wall for ten years about keeping his emotions under control, and Obi-Wan obviously knew Anakin was obsessed with Padme and that her life was under constant threat.

    Aside from Jar-Jar, I do still very much like The Phantom Menace, and see it as a fairly strong stand-alone Sci-Fi film for the younglings. It really put the prequels on an awkward footing though, starting with all of the characters being too young and introducing a whole layer of political complexity that was really unnecessary. Episode II then became a complete nothing film, simply a series of gratuitous CGI and nipple scenes (why so cold in the desert anyway?) that achieved nothing for the story arch aside from the last 30 seconds where Anakin and Padme marry and Palpatine gets his stormtroopers.

    This left Episode III with pretty much the entire story to tell, and by then it was too late to make us care about Anakin, and I don't think Lucas even tried. He just sort of assumed we'd feel bad because he said in commentaries and interviews that Anakin used to be good. No, he didn't. He did one good thing in his entire life, and he did it because a hot chick walked into his store with an awesome guy with a laser sword and he wanted to impress them.

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    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alf View Post
    The midi-chlorians thing just sapped the mystery of it. It was explained perfectly by Obi wan in the original trilogy... why did it need explaining further? It pissed me off so much.
    Agreed. It reduces the Force to basically a parasite. Rather than being a mystical field of oneness throughout the universes, it's just some energy field that little creatures living in you are able to manipulate. It's just not as cool when you know the trick.

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    Old men talking! One Man Gang's Avatar
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    The midichlorians thing was a bit fucked up. Nobody asked for the force to be explained scientifically and yet he shoved it down our throats. Yodas explanation in TESB was magical. Had he made one mention of tiny bugs living in everyone, that scene would have collapsed. But then again, Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan wrote the screenplay to TESB and not George Lucas. He came up with the story and produced, but that film had others adding their input.


    Back to Anakin though, did anyone else find it irritating that Lucas started the prequels with a 9 year old playing Anakin in an attempt to show he was once innocent, but then made him the happiest SLAVE in history. I get that the slavery plot point was a nice mirror to how he becomes a slave to the Emperor later, but when you put a character in that situation, write "he knows nothing of greed" and yet he is surrounded by it, something doesn't sit well with the audience because they cannot relate. Not saying Anakin should have been a monster at age 9, but he looked like he knew nothing of suffering.

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    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneManGang View Post
    Back to Anakin though, did anyone else find it irritating that Lucas started the prequels with a 9 year old playing Anakin in an attempt to show he was once innocent, but then made him the happiest SLAVE in history. I get that the slavery plot point was a nice mirror to how he becomes a slave to the Emperor later, but when you put a character in that situation, write "he knows nothing of greed" and yet he is surrounded by it, something doesn't sit well with the audience because they cannot relate. Not saying Anakin should have been a monster at age 9, but he looked like he knew nothing of suffering.
    Great point. Anakin and his mother, though they weren't free to wander off, seemed pretty content. Schmi griped a bit about the Republic not doing anything about slavery (and she was right, in ten years no one bothered to go back for her, even though her sacrifice saved two Jedi, a Queen and her planet from starving to death). They had more than enough food to share with their guests, and despite being a slave Anakin had plenty of time to build complex machinery and carve stuff for his girlfriend. Not to mention he raced pods all the time anyway, so it was far from a sacrifice for him to be risking his life to help Qui-Gon when he liked doing it.

    There was nothing good about young Anakin, he was simply a Mary Sue, utterly and irritatingly perfect and well liked by everyone. Even Watto seemed somewhat fond of him.

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    Old men talking! One Man Gang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mike View Post
    Great point. Anakin and his mother, though they weren't free to wander off, seemed pretty content. Schmi griped a bit about the Republic not doing anything about slavery (and she was right, in ten years no one bothered to go back for her, even though her sacrifice saved two Jedi, a Queen and her planet from starving to death). They had more than enough food to share with their guests, and despite being a slave Anakin had plenty of time to build complex machinery and carve stuff for his girlfriend. Not to mention he raced pods all the time anyway, so it was far from a sacrifice for him to be risking his life to help Qui-Gon when he liked doing it.

    There was nothing good about young Anakin, he was simply a Mary Sue, utterly and irritatingly perfect and well liked by everyone. Even Watto seemed somewhat fond of him.


    You made my next point about freeing Shmi. At the end of TPM the Naboo and Gungans throw a parade and invite the boy who saved them from the Battle Droids. But nobody bothered to buy his mothers freedom?!! It would have been the least they could do as repayment and if you can afford a parade and a palace, you can buy one slave. Did Shmi not shelter their Queen? It is without a doubt the largest plot hole in the prequels and their is no excuse for why no attempt to free her was made. Had they gone to Tatooine and she had been sold already, then fine. But its clear Padme made no attempt and the Jedi sure as hell thought it best that his mother, who he was so attached to, be left to live a life of misery. They couldn't give him just that one comfort?! Its absolutely unbelievable that Lucas thought we'd accept 10 years passing while letting her rot there. How can the audience in any way feel bad for the Jedi Order or Obi-Wan if they let that happen?


    On the subject of the Queen, what the fuck are the Naboo doing electing a 14 year old to govern them? How does that make any sense. It would be one thing if she inherited the throne, but she was elected. What sort of people are these? How can the audience relate to this situation at all?

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    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneManGang View Post
    How can the audience in any way feel bad for the Jedi Order or Obi-Wan if they let that happen?
    A part of me thinks this was meant to happen, as the Jedi are not portrayed in an entirely sympathetic light. Though thanks to Lucas cutting stuff of substance to fit in more explosions and abs, it's not entirely clear, but with deleted scenes and the novel and a little digging in between the lines it seems that the Jedi weren't supposed to be the way they ended up, and we're supposed to see them as being a bit stupid in denying things like attachment and that this is one reason Anakin resents them, because they are trying to quash his natural instinct to give a shit about people.

    Unfortunately there is no mentioned I can recall, even in deleted scenes or stuff from the novels, of even Anakin bringing up the idea of rescuing his mother. So it's more likely Lucas just entirely forgot about it.

    On the subject of the Queen, what the fuck are the Naboo doing electing a 14 year old to govern them? How does that make any sense. It would be one thing if she inherited the throne, but she was elected. What sort of people are these? How can the audience relate to this situation at all?
    The place is meant to be so peaceful and dedicated to scholarship that the Queen wouldn't have significant responsibilities and would be rather advanced in her education compared with your average 14 year old. The age is still a bit tough to swallow, though, and obviously she did have a lot of crap to deal with when someone decides to blockade her planet because they didn't want to pay taxes to travel through her sector of space.

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    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alf View Post
    The scene where Anakin finally turns is ridiculously shit.
    That gay reading of "What have I done?" after he turns makes me want to punch him and Lucas in the tit. It breaks the mood of the scene, is bad and unintentional comedy and is utterly ridiculous.


    It's also good to know that Darth Vader hates the sand.

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    Old men talking! One Man Gang's Avatar
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    For over 2 decades the general audience was under the belief that the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice and that we should feel sorry for Obi-Wan in ANH when he recalls the Empire hunting them down.

    Then we got 3 movies where it became incredibly difficult to like them at all. Even if they forbid attachment, I think it was made clear that Anakin was a special case and that he knew and loved his mother for 10 years prior to joining the Jedi Order. Something most Jedi do not experience. So letting Shmi rot was rather harsh. Not only this, but Shmi also sheltered Qui-Gon Jinn and lent out her little boy to get two of their Jedi off of Tatooine. The Jedi being set in their ways is one thing, but that was just a plot hole that in not excusable as it doesnt come off as natural in any way shape or form that they would do that and yet they're fine with protecting a Queen.



    As for the the Naboo, since the film starts us off with a crisis, it could hardly be established that they are such enlightened people that their elected officials hardly matter to them enough to not care if a 14 year old runs their planet. Poor form by Lucas.

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    Winston Nicks A Lilt. Alf's Avatar
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    I agree the prequels also squashed every bit of romance about the Jedi knights too. What they were, what they did etc etc.

    I had them pinned down as highly respected and highly deadly protectors of the galaxy. What we got was a bunch of chin strokers who didn't do much of anything.

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    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneManGang View Post
    As for the the Naboo, since the film starts us off with a crisis, it could hardly be established that they are such enlightened people that their elected officials hardly matter to them enough to not care if a 14 year old runs their planet. Poor form by Lucas.
    Yeah, this is a huge problem Lucas has, he forgets that the audience is not inside his head. There are quite a few places where things only make sense if you know background (and sometimes a lot of this background comes from the head of EU writers). I know how the people of Theed were supposed to be by reading a bunch of supplemental material and talking to other Star Wars fans about it. But on the screen, it looks like they have a child on the throne. Her age isn't actually mentioned in the film as far as I recall, but she's clearly really young and hard to take seriously as a ruler of an entire planet without understanding the context in which she got there. Which, like her specific age, is all stuff we're supposed to figure out from further reading. I can't actually recall if they mention she was elected in TPM, though I'm sure the idea of term limits comes up in AotC, in yet another clanger where Anakin points out to Padme (as if she wouldn't bloody remember it!) that the planet wanted to amend their constitution to allow her to serve more than two terms, because she was so super awesome.

    To be fair she was pretty awesome as a queen, relative to the rest of the idiots in the entire galaxy, who seemed utterly incapable of marching into one room of one palace, capturing two talking fish-things and breaking the blockade. Then she goes from this to sexy sidekick who is clearly trying to seduce a mass murderer to simpering wretch who can't even be bothered to live for her twins.

  23. #23
    Old men talking! One Man Gang's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong, I love some of the concepts and ideas the PT gave us. Who would have thought the Clone Wars would be between Stormtroopers and Battle Droids? I guess it really was clones vs clones. It just boils my blood more with every flaw because I enjoy the overall story so much.



    On the subject of clones, there were a few things that irked me there too. First would be the idea that Jango Fetts face would be plastered on every clonetrooper corpse. Wouldn't that bother the separatist leaders that the bounty hunter that their leader (Count Dooku) chose to kill Senator Amidala turned out to be the template for a secret Republic army? What were the odds? If they were in on it, then certainly the scene where they stand around the war room shocked that the Jedi had an army wouldn't have happened.

    Also I love the dialogue slip up regarding the clones when Obi-Wan is investigating who ordered them. First Lama Su says a Jedi named Syfo-Dyas made an order 10 years ago. Now before knowing what Dyas ordered, Obi-Wan says the guy died almost 10 years ago. Lama Su says hes sorry to hear that and then proceeds to explain what he ordered for the Jedi. Then later, Obi-Wan tells Yoda and Mace that he (Obi-Wan) was under the impression Dyas died before the order was placed. Meaning from the start, Obi-Wan was covering up something so as not to alarm Lama Su before he even knew what he was covering up or if he needed to cover it up. Brilliant. It was meant to show that this Dyas guy was framed and didn't order the clones, but it was sloppy dialogue.

    Also it seems as though the investigation into who ordered the clone army was dropped. Obi-Wan finds out someone used the name of a dead Jedi to order an army and that a man called Tyranus hired the template. The template then flies to Geonosis to stand beside a former Jedi who apparently hired Jango to kill the main opponent of an army for the Republic, Senator Amidala. Is putting 2 and 2 together such a hard concept for the Jedi? I would hightly suspect Count Dooku. Especially since only a Jedi could have erased Kamino from the Jedi Archives.

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    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Another thing I didn't like in the prequels was showing Yoda and Palpatine as swordplay masters. Growing up on the OT, I always pictured those two as being so skilled that they were above such flippy antics.


    An edit that I think would have worked wonderfully in ROTS is when Windu and the Jedi's confront Palpatine. Have all the dialogue the same (the stuff there is actually great thanks to McDiarmid's superb delivery) but cut after he lights up the red blade and says "It's treason, then." Jump to Anakin racing to his office and then, upon his entry, have Skywalker find slashed and smoldering Jedi corpses. He makes his way into the main office and finds the Emperor doing his little ploy to get him to strike down Windu.

    That movie had too many duels as it was. Then just have Sidious vs. Yoda as a giant force off, in contrast to the proper duel of Obi and Anakin.


    Another thing that kind of irked me was Anakin not getting a red blade after becoming Vader. Obi Wan had to somehow get his blue saber, yes, so it would have been cool to see AnaVader rock both (blue and red) during the final duel. Lucas teased him being able to duel wield in Ep II and that would have been a nice little touch. Having him lose his real arm (with the blue blade) would have been a nice touch. Obi Wan thinks it's over after disarming him, but Vader charges again with his robotic arm and a red blade. Could have been a much more dramatic moment than "I have the high ground" and a single swipe taking all his limbs.

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    Intercontinental Champion
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    All I really have to say is I thought Darth Maul was a pretty cool looking character.

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    When Yoda first yielded his lightsaber and fought Dooku in AOTC I marked out like crazy. That was one of the best moments of the new movies for me, and I still think Yoda's fight scenes were awesome.

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    Old men talking! One Man Gang's Avatar
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    I was fine with Palpatine and Yoda showing off their saber skills. Though the duel in Palpatines office was terribly shot. The Jedi came off as jobbers. Not saying Palpatine shouldn't have handed them their asses, just that two of them died fairly fast. Before they could even swing a saber and yet Palpatine wasn't that quick.

    I don't mind seeing him cut down the Jedi, but maybe more voice overs from Palpatine to Anakin would have added another layer. Like Anakin is racing to towards the office and Palpatine (while cutting down Jedi left and right) is pleading with Anakin to hurry. It would have made the audience realize that a trap was coming.

    One thing I must say is that I absolutely loved the scene where Anakin and Padme stare out the windows with only the score playing. Perfectly done. I don't know where that came from in Lucas.

    On the downside of the duels, I was not at all happy with the way the force lightning came off as obsolete. It totally brought the scene in ROTJ when the Emperor is zapping Luke. Instead of it being his special power that was unstoppable, it became something his apprentices can use, it can be blocked by sabers, and it can be returned by clever Jedi.

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    Not being a huge Star Wars nerd, I do enjoy both prequel trilogies relatively thoroughly. I don't nit pick movies by and large - I'm of the mindset that a movie's a movie, and that there are things that happen, and unless there's something THAT bad or amateur, like a boom mike in frame or something along those lines, I try to enjoy movies as an artform.

    However...

    The one thing that has always bothered me, and perhaps the only thing that has really bothered me, about the original trilogy is Lucas' pomposity to have us believe that he had this thing set in stone and ready to go from day one.

    The thing that really seals the deal for me with this is the incest kiss in ANH. You seriously expect me to believe that Lucas had it all planned out to not have it be some kind of complex love triangle, but just have it be "oh yeah, by the way, these kids are siblings. Ignore the kiss, folks." No, he may have generally had some idea of an outline of the story, but the fine tuning and fleshing out of the story is obviously done last minute and kind've haphazard. That doesn't take away from them being good stories, but man, stop acting like you knew everything about every chapter of the saga. Just say, "hey, I had this idea, and fleshing this shit out worked out. Lucky me."

    The prequel trilogy, Jar Jar was just the fucking worst. I can't watch TPM because of that thing. Well, that, and the only great part of that flick was the end duel between Qui Gon, Obi Wan and Darth Maul. The rest puts me to sleep every time.

    I actually enjoyed AotC and RotS. Yeah, there were some really hilariously bad moments. But I think everyone by and large knew that the magic and charm of the original trilogy wouldn't be recaptured. You take a look at it for what it is (an attempt to milk that cow for as much as they could) and there are some good enough moments.

    I would have loved for things to have been done slightly different. But I take into account my perception about Lucas being a pompous ass, and I think meh, could've been worse. At least it wasn't just him jerking himself off. There was some stuff in there for the fans too.

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    Never cared for Star Wars, but I was watching this earlier and think you lot might like it:

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV7Ha3VDbzE[/ame]

  30. #30
    Hell is for Heroes Second City Saint's Avatar
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    If you hate Jar Jar (and who doesn't), search for the Phantom Edit. It's Phantom Menace with 20 minutes cut - 20 minutes of Jar Jar.

    Also, ESB is undoubtedly the best film of the series; it had everything.

  31. #31
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hero! View Post
    Never cared for Star Wars...
    Hero, you're breaking my heart.

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    Sorry, I'm a different kind of geek.

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    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    You're going down a path I can't follow...

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    May the power protect me?

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    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    You've changed.

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    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    The one thing that has always bothered me, and perhaps the only thing that has really bothered me, about the original trilogy is Lucas' pomposity to have us believe that he had this thing set in stone and ready to go from day one.

    The thing that really seals the deal for me with this is the incest kiss in ANH. You seriously expect me to believe that Lucas had it all planned out to not have it be some kind of complex love triangle, but just have it be "oh yeah, by the way, these kids are siblings. Ignore the kiss, folks."[/QUOTE]

    I assume you mean the kiss in ESB, since ANH was just a peck on the cheek, and I've seen plenty of siblings do that (though it is Scotland...).

    Anyway, Lucas has admitted that Leia as Luke's sister was pulled out of his ass and initially the plan for Return of the Jedi was to introduce another female character who would turn out to be Luke's sister, but he didn't think they really had the room for it as they worked on the script, and since Empire had already set up another Jedi out there somewhere, they went with Leia.

  37. #37
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    Didn't he respond that he knew Leia was his sister in Empire?

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    Long Live Indy Wrestling DDT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hero! View Post
    Sorry, I'm a different kind of geek.


    Even if there is no God or Buddha, there is.....KAMEN RIDER!

  39. #39
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Leia has an amazing memory. Remembering her mother and all...

  40. #40
    MASHY SPIKE PLATE Excel's Avatar
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    She probably meant Bail Organas wife, I dont think she knew she was adopted. I suspect she died when Leia was young and Bail then remarried. Hence the "your real mother line£ that she mistook as being Bails first wife.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DDT View Post


    Even if there is no God or Buddha, there is.....KAMEN RIDER!
    Yes! Respect Da Riders. Henshin!

  42. #42
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOLDBERG'S BEST FRIEND View Post
    Didn't he respond that he knew Leia was his sister in Empire?
    I don't believe so. I'm sure he said he didn't plan on that until writing Jedi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excel View Post
    She probably meant Bail Organas wife, I dont think she knew she was adopted. I suspect she died when Leia was young and Bail then remarried. Hence the "your real mother line£ that she mistook as being Bails first wife.
    That's possible but it would totally mess with the meaning of the scene. It's clear Luke was asking about Padme and we have no background on Leia to suggest she would mistake that question for something about her adoptive father's first wife. All we know is Leia knows she is adopted (and that's from extra material and a bit of inference, once more Lucas fails to actually mention it in the script) and Luke is asking about her real mother who he is thinking of as his own mother. It would basically amount to Leia completely misunderstanding Luke's question in one of the most meaningful scenes of the trilogy, then not correcting herself when figuring out he's talking about their collective mother.

  43. #43
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Padme having to go into hiding with one of her kids and having to give the other one up for his own protection would have been heartbreakingly wonderful. Lucas couldn't pull it off as director, I don't think, but it would have been class.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mike View Post
    I don't believe so. I'm sure he said he didn't plan on that until writing Jedi.
    Start it at 2:10 to skip the gay flashbacks...

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6RZ1CV-44s[/ame]

  45. #45
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOLDBERG'S BEST FRIEND View Post
    Start it at 2:10 to skip the gay flashbacks...
    Oh you meant Luke. I thought you were talking about Lucas. Aye, Luke claims to have always known, which does not help matters in the slightest. Yay for incest!

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    How would Luke know without Lucas knowing?

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    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Luke's ass... Lukeass... Lucas.

  48. #48
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    Gorge Luke's Ass.

  49. #49
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOLDBERG'S BEST FRIEND View Post
    How would Luke know without Lucas knowing?
    Just because Luke says in Jedi "I've always known" doesn't mean that he has, in fact, always known. Lucas said he didn't plan on Leia being his sister until writing Jedi and realising that he didn't have the space to introduce and expand a new character to be the Other Skywalker so he made it Leia instead.

  50. #50
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    At that speed will you be able to pull out in time?

  51. #51
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    David Lynch talking about Lucas offering him the director's chair for Return of the Jedi. Nothing too Earth-shattering but, apparently, Lucas told him that he didn't like to direct (we kind of know this from the prequels) and he's too short to drive a Ferrari. I assume Lynch means "Ewoks" when he says Wookies.

    Lynch on Star Wars/Lucas


    Going back to Lucas not liking to direct, I've never quite understood why he directed all three prequels. In the lead up (before production on Episode I), he said that if he directed any of them, it would be the first one. Seems that his talents would have been better used staying on the creative and effects end of the process and letting someone else direct the actors. Between toying with new technology, filming entirely on green screen and so forth, he never really would have been able to cover everything on his own.



  52. #52
    Paranoid Reculse
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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    Going back to Lucas not liking to direct, I've never quite understood why he directed all three prequels.
    Come on, you know you understand why. Lucas is a control freak, that's basically it in a nutshell.

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    Only liked Sith in the prequel set.

    It would have been better if they decided...

    1. Not to do another set of movies.

    Or

    2. Gone with a sequel trilogy and put different people in the chair besides Lucas.

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    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie_Outlaw View Post
    Come on, you know you understand why. Lucas is a control freak, that's basically it in a nutshell.
    He's an indecisive control freak, who doesn't know what he really wants and constantly changes his product around after release.

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    He's an indecisive control freak, who doesn't know what he really wants and constantly changes his product around after release.
    Though he's generally got good vision (eg, LucasArts / ILM) and can market really well.


    I'm not really much of a Star Wars diehard, don't play the games, read the books but as everyone has I've seen all the movies and they were the video tapes (taped from the TV of course) which I'd watch regularly as a kid and must have seen the original trilogy a half-dozen or so times (I really have no idea, but I know it backwards) and is probably why I end up liking science fiction.
    Last edited by Aussie_Outlaw; December 10th, 2009 at 6:02 AM.

  56. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mike View Post

    There was nothing good about young Anakin, he was simply a Mary Sue, utterly and irritatingly perfect and well liked by everyone. Even Watto seemed somewhat fond of him.
    I was trying to avoid posting in here because I know that once I get started its going to be very difficult for me to stop. But Mike's onto something there which has bothered me for some time.

    I think the prequels were mostly a let down to everyone, with some great iconic redeeming scenes. But some things were left on the cutting room floor which had so much potential, and it really irritates me that they were cut because they could have made the film so much better.

    In the Phantom Menace there was originally to be a scene where young "lazer-swords" Anakin gets into a fight with a young Greedo.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP5defnEQ8A"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP5defnEQ8A[/ame]

    Now, I'm totally against these Dickensian coincidence cameo scenes, I hated Chewbacca being in ROTH just for th hell of it, and it hated Boba Fett's dad being the master-copy for all the clones. But this small scene, where Anakin was pissed off at, lets say a young alien rather than it being young Greedo, told so much story in 15 seconds. Anakin has a temper, and although generally very content occasionally loses judgement.

    Qui Gonn catches him and breaks up the fight, this causes him to eventually to be wary of how dangerous he could be. The Jedi Council are torn over their decision to let him train him, and already, even in the first movie we see that Anakin is not as clean-cut as the Jedi would like him to be.

    I would also have had him do something a little rough at the pod-race to one of the other guys and get a telling off for it, only for him to lose his temper.

  57. #57
    Cirque du Soleil Chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    Lucas teased him being able to duel wield in Ep II and that would have been a nice little touch.
    That was an annoying tease. When I saw it in the trailer, I was looking forward to the duel - then he ends up losing the extra Saber in under 10 seconds. I remember being very disappointed by that entire scene, until Yoda showed up. Clearly it couldn't compare to the pace and acrobatics of "Duel of the Fates", and it didn't need to - but it was very short and Dooku dispatched both Jedi fairly easily.

    When Luke asked if the Dark Side was stronger in Empire Strikes Back, it seemed like it certainly was after seeing the prequels. Maul took on two Jedi, killed one and had the other well and truly on the ropes until he was caught off guard with a sudden somersault. Dooku cut through Obi-Wan and Anakin without breaking much of a sweat. I thought Obi-Wan was over-powered too quickly during their duel in Episode 3. Granted, Dooku threw him into a railing using the Force, but it just seemed at odds with Obi-Wan's forceful duel with Anakin later in the film. When it came to either Saber skills or using the Force, it seemed like the Sith had a major upper hand on the Jedi.

    I saw all of the prequels at midnight, and I miss not having a Star Wars movie to look forward to. Especially all the rumours swirling around about what would be in each movie. I remember the big Star Wars thread in this forum while the movies were coming out, and all the discussion about the different scenes that were supposedly in Episode 3. Originally, it was said to be a big duel between Windu and Anakin. Then there were reports that you'd get to see Palpatine's Royal Guards in action - Windu would defeat them, but be too incapacitated to be much of a match for Anakin or Palpatine. It slowly but surely turned into reports of Palpatine going toe-to-toe with Windu.

    Also, there were loads of reports stating that Lucas would drop his usual cross-cutting battle climax and show the full Anakin vs Obi-Wan duel uninterrupted for 12 minutes or whatever it's length was said to be. Some of the things in Episode 3 weren't as good as the rumours that came before it, while other things were better. But it was all the speculation and anticipation that I loved.

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    Good stuff on the fight scene, Frank_Drebin. I know Lucas cut it because of his insistence that Anakin be portrayed as pure and wholly good (which makes me wonder how it got to the stage of being filmed if this was such an important part of the character), but I think this actually is a detriment to the overall film, and not just Anakin. Had the fight remained, Qui-Gon's caginess in front of the council would have made more sense, and so too would their distrust of the boy and the fear/anger/hate they sensed in him. As it is, we have a bunch of old men and women cajoling a little boy for missing his mummy and calling him a scaredy cat even though he risked his frickin' life to save two Knights and avert a political disaster. Once more the Jedi look like complete asses, with the slightest semblance of justification left on the cutting-room floor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank_Drebin View Post
    I would also have had him do something a little rough at the pod-race to one of the other guys and get a telling off for it, only for him to lose his temper.
    I've always thought he should have tapped the force in the race to screw over Sibulba (whatever his name was.)

    Like have them neck and neck at the end, only for the little kid to wave his hand and something to screw up in his rivals pod. That would have, at least, given the Jedi Council reason to be so mistrustful of him.

    That leads me to another thing that stands out for me now: the Jedi Council MADE Darth Vader. They alienated Anakin throughout his time with them, allowed his fears of his mother to fester and his paranoia to grow. They pushed him to be closer to Palpatine. In this vein, ever since Episode II, I've felt it was poor planning on Lucas's part not to have Dooku on the council in Episode I. That could have played nicely to the overall story if they had Dooku planting the mistrust in the council that would alienate Anakin and drive him to the dark side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post

    That leads me to another thing that stands out for me now: the Jedi Council MADE Darth Vader. They alienated Anakin throughout his time with them, allowed his fears of his mother to fester and his paranoia to grow. They pushed him to be closer to Palpatine. In this vein, ever since Episode II, I've felt it was poor planning on Lucas's part not to have Dooku on the council in Episode I. That could have played nicely to the overall story if they had Dooku planting the mistrust in the council that would alienate Anakin and drive him to the dark side.
    Anakin was alienated because of his lack of patience and willingness to follow orders, which he felt were the result of jealousy. They all sensed he had seeds of the dark side in him and thus did not want him to be trained. If anything, Qui-Gon's defiant insistence was the catalyst for Darth Vader's creation.

    I don't see how Dooku trying to plant the seeds for Vader makes any sense. Wasn't it Sidious' plan that Anakin take his place anyway?

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    Dooku never knew that.

    It would have been a nice touch to have had Dooku being a dick to him when he first met with the council. It would have added to his alienation and, more importantly, would further his decent into the darkside when he faced off with a guy he's hated since childhood.

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    But there are only two Sith (known). Dooku's not a moron, wouldn't he have to believe that if Anakin turned it would be at his expense? Unless Dooku were under the impression he could destroy Sidious and take over the role of master with Anakin as his Sith padawan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Second City Saint View Post
    But there are only two Sith (known). Dooku's not a moron, wouldn't he have to believe that if Anakin turned it would be at his expense? Unless Dooku were under the impression he could destroy Sidious and take over the role of master with Anakin as his Sith padawan.
    That was Vader's plan for Luke...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Second City Saint View Post
    But there are only two Sith (known). Dooku's not a moron, wouldn't he have to believe that if Anakin turned it would be at his expense? Unless Dooku were under the impression he could destroy Sidious and take over the role of master with Anakin as his Sith padawan.
    Every Sith is under that impression. It's their nature.

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    Darth Maul was pretty obedient. Pretty arrogant too.

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    Darth Maul was a weapon. Trained from childhood to be a loyal killing machine.

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    Maul hadn't learned all he could yet, so he was still milking Sidious. Ultimately, Sith aim for the top.

    EDIT: That too. I don't think Sidious had plans for him to last all that long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    That was Vader's plan for Luke...
    Vader and Dooku are two different animals

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    Quote Originally Posted by Second City Saint View Post
    Vader and Dooku are two different animals
    True, but it doesn't preclude him trying to seduce someone he sees potential in.

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    Pedophile logic.

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    Sidious was a paedo.








    So was Qui Jon.

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    If it weren't for Star Wars, we wouldn't have Spaceballs so it's all good.

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    Whatever, Major.

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    Hokey effects and witty dialogue are no match for a good CGI explosion at your side.

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    So apparently the live action TV series won't air until 2011, if we're lucky. I was looking forward to it, but I guess the Clone Wars cartoons are cheaper and easier to do. According to Lucas, when the series arrives, it will be "bare bones and action-heavy", which doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. Not only that, but the plan is to have the thing branch within a couple of years to 4 different series, like Stargate/Star Trek. Talk about freaking milking it.

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    The one thing about it that gives me hope is that they'll be forced to not have everyone be Jedi. The lack of non-force users (like a Han or a Lando) hurt the prequels.

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    An interesting point. Who did we have that was a main character who couldn't deus ex machina their way out of almost any trouble? Padme and... Jar-Jar? And they only really had characters in the first film, then became plot devices. Guys like Han added a smart mouth and more versatility to situations than chopping it to pieces with a lightsaber.

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    There was that kindly old Senator. He wasn't a force user, right?




    Oh, right...

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    R2D2.

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    You know, R2 should have been all "bleep blorp/you might not want to fly off to fight Pops, Luke" on his way to the cloud city...

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    R2D2 should never have had rocket boosters in the PT. Had he had those in the OT, he would never have fallen in the Dagobah swamp or just took a tumble off Jabbas sail barge.

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    Lucas has been fairly short sighted in character development and who survives situations multiple times. In the commentary of the original films, he says that he’d never have launched Boba Fett into the Sarclacc Pit if he knew how popular he was. He said the same basic thing about killing Maul off in the Episode I DVD. He seems to detach himself from seeking out others opinions and that, in turn, shelters him from potential criticism.

    In the prequels he kept making new characters to replace the ones he killed off. Dooku replaced Maul, Grievious replaced Jango and so forth. I hate to knock the good General (I liked his character a good bit) but it would have been much more effective had they kept Jango alive and in his role. The template for the clone army leading the opposition to it is much more interesting, to me, than a robot leading a robot army. It also would have been cool to see a Jango/Boba type character with the lightsabers of fallen Jedi on his belt. That one change also makes it cooler when Obi Wan catches him, as he’d have been essentially chasing him for two films at that point.

    Something that I’d have loved would have been to see some red on red action, to foreshadow what Vader wants to do with Luke in the next trilogy. For this, Maul survives Episode I and dies in a red on red duel with Dooku at the end of Episode II. It would show the treachery of the Sith first hand and could end with Sidious christening Dooku as Darth Tyranus at the end and commending him for killing Maul. Plus, that way, we’d hopefully not get non-Sidious characters busting out force lightning. Liked it more when that was seen as an exclusive power to him.

  83. #83
    Give me the World Belt, dammit Zarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    [CENTER]Lucas has been fairly short sighted in character development and who survives situations multiple times. In the commentary of the original films, he says that he’d never have launched Boba Fett into the Sarclacc Pit if he knew how popular he was. He said the same basic thing about killing Maul off in the Episode I DVD./CENTER]
    And when Harrison was adament about Han dying, George wouldnt do it...because he was popular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarius View Post
    And when Harrison was adament about Han dying, George wouldnt do it...because he was popular.
    That's not why they didn't kill him. Lucas says as much in the DVDs. It's because he was adament on none of the heroes being killed off at the end.

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    Except Anakin...

    Good point about Lucas being short sighted, though. How he could have reached the shooting stage of Jedi without knowing Boba Fett was popular? He really seems to have just written all of this for himself, which is fair enough as it's one of the keys to good writing, but what he creates seems to have little internal consistency and things just occur on his whim as orchestrator of the galaxy. According to the AotC DVD, he designed Padme's dress from the fireplace scene all by himself, which is at once both creepy and utterly against the character's actions and intentions both before and during the scene. "Oh Anakin, I don't want you, and you shouldn't want me, but by all means stare into my cleavage". Then there's the aforementioned R2 and his rocket boosters that apparently just seemed like a cool idea at the time, and the litany of characters killed and replaced with characters of the exact same function and role just for... I don't know. Maybe to sell more action figures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    Lucas has been fairly short sighted in character development and who survives situations multiple times. In the commentary of the original films, he says that he’d never have launched Boba Fett into the Sarclacc Pit if he knew how popular he was. He said the same basic thing about killing Maul off in the Episode I DVD. He seems to detach himself from seeking out others opinions and that, in turn, shelters him from potential criticism.

    In the prequels he kept making new characters to replace the ones he killed off. Dooku replaced Maul, Grievious replaced Jango and so forth. I hate to knock the good General (I liked his character a good bit) but it would have been much more effective had they kept Jango alive and in his role. The template for the clone army leading the opposition to it is much more interesting, to me, than a robot leading a robot army. It also would have been cool to see a Jango/Boba type character with the lightsabers of fallen Jedi on his belt. That one change also makes it cooler when Obi Wan catches him, as he’d have been essentially chasing him for two films at that point.

    Something that I’d have loved would have been to see some red on red action, to foreshadow what Vader wants to do with Luke in the next trilogy. For this, Maul survives Episode I and dies in a red on red duel with Dooku at the end of Episode II. It would show the treachery of the Sith first hand and could end with Sidious christening Dooku as Darth Tyranus at the end and commending him for killing Maul. Plus, that way, we’d hopefully not get non-Sidious characters busting out force lightning. Liked it more when that was seen as an exclusive power to him.

    Eek. I have to disagree with most of that. Jango is a bounty hunter, not a field general. While some characters lightly transition from one to the other in the Star Wars saga, I think its best that Jango stays true to his nature. Also I think its more haunting in Episode III when Jango's face is all over the troops Obi-Wan leads. The echoes of the "they'll do their job well" speech vibrate more if Jango is long dead IMO. They did chase some villains across multiple films, they were just Sidious, Dooku, and Gunray instead of Jango.

    As for Maul, he was a weapon and while he should easily have had more screen time in TPM, I'm not sure if his character needed two films. Especially if you still want Tyranus. I feel more should have been made out of Maul's death from the side of Sidious though. He spent 20 to 30 years training that monster and then some punk apprentice kils him. It sorta was a "you killed my apprentice, so I'll take yours" at the end of TPM, but not fully fleshed out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneManGang View Post
    As for Maul, he was a weapon and while he should easily have had more screen time in TPM, I'm not sure if his character needed two films. Especially if you still want Tyranus. I feel more should have been made out of Maul's death from the side of Sidious though. He spent 20 to 30 years training that monster and then some punk apprentice kils him. It sorta was a "you killed my apprentice, so I'll take yours" at the end of TPM, but not fully fleshed out.
    Siduous does get his hands on Obi-Wan's apprentice at the end of TPM, though, and it's extremely subtle but such an intention could be read into it, I suppose. Especially with the 'celebration' music being a speeded up version of the Emperor's theme. In hindsight, there is quite a sinister undercurrent to the whole scene.

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    While that was a nice touch that was filmed a few months before TPM debuted, more reminders of why Sidious may hate Obi-Wan in later movies would have been good. You almost get that when he suggests in AOTC that Obi-Wan protect Senator Amidala. But then nothing specifically comes of it that can be linked to Sidious's planning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneManGang View Post
    While that was a nice touch that was filmed a few months before TPM debuted, more reminders of why Sidious may hate Obi-Wan in later movies would have been good. You almost get that when he suggests in AOTC that Obi-Wan protect Senator Amidala. But then nothing specifically comes of it that can be linked to Sidious's planning.
    I was unaware that scene was filmed so late after principal photography, was it just the Palpatine/Anakin interaction specifically or the whole sequence?

    I agree, I definitely would have liked to see more umbridge between Sidious and Obi-Wan. Suggesting he protect the Senator was crafty in that it would reintroduce her to Anakin and Palpatine must have known of his obsession due to their close relationship, but it would have been nice to see some more hangover from the previous film.

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    Just the portion where Palpatine speaks to Anakin and Obi-Wan was shot so late in the game. The rest of the scene I believe was shot during principal photography. I only mention when it was shot because Lucas nearly went an entire film without Anakin and Palpatine interacting. He almost did it again in AOTC as the scene between the two in the office was shot in post production. If you ever noticed the way the two movE down the steps in the scene, you'll realize they shot it in front of a blue screen long after the set had been taken down. Can you imagine almost 2 films going by without any interacting between Vader and the Emperor? This was almost some serious oversight and speaks to George getting lost in his own creation.

    On a side note, the shot of Aurra Sing was done long after pick up shots (which are meant to film things they didn't catch in principal) too. The rumor in 1999 was that George wanted to add her because he wanted to use a female bounty hunter in Episode 2 for something. Come the summer of 2000 though, apparently he had changed his mind on what this bounty huntress should look like. But for that year Aurra Sing was massively popular. In fact, that may have contributed to why he ultimately didnt use her. She became worth more alive in the expanded universe then dead at the start of AOTC.

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    This is a seven part, 70-minute, review of The Phantom Menace. I came across it awhile back but didn't watch it due to the length. A friend just insisted that I see it on facebook and it's the most entertainingly brilliant and twisted review I've seen. It's a good watch in the background for those interested and I think OneManGang and Mike will enjoy it.

    And he has video of George calling the Gungans "Goongas" and saying how effects should always be secondary to the story. That makes my day. As did the fact that Damon Lindelof (head writer of Lost) has actually endorsed it and said that everyone should watch it.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI&feature=player_embedded"]Part One[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZG1AWVLnl48&feature=related"]Part Two[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdQwKPVGQsY&feature=related"]Part Three[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOlG4T1S2lU&feature=related"]Part Four[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBvp1r2UpiQ&feature=related"]Part Five[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORWPCCzSgu0&feature=related"]Part Six[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIWKMgJs_Gs&feature=related"]Part Seven[/ame]





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    Ah I love Lucas and his random pronunciation of his own creations. Googans, Naeboo, Leeah, etc. It's odd how he seems to say things entirely differently from the rest of the world, and he's the one who created them.

    Thanks for this, atty, I'll check it out tonight.

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    I just watched this. Nothing really stood out as being new criticism, but it was certainly a comprehensive review that pretty much addresses the problems with the film. I'll admit that bit about Obi Wan's status as a jedi knight never occurred to me, though.

    Video really could've done without all the added 'humor,' though.

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    Thanks for that. I always felt they sucked but never had it expressed so precisely.

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    I have no clue how I never caught the Obi Wan Jedi Knight thing.

  96. #96
    Hell is for Heroes Second City Saint's Avatar
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    If anyone wants a download link to the new Family Guy Star Wars parody 'Something Something Dark Side' PM me.

  97. #97
    I'm serial viva_la_raza's Avatar
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    First off, brilliant thread idea

    I will never forget the first time I watched the three original Star Wars movies. It was on consecutive nights in a summer holiday years and years ago, and my father had hyped them up so much. They were fantastic, and remain to be. Sure, some of the dialouge is very, very corny but on the whole, how could anyone not like the OT. The good characters, first of all, fom the core like Luke, Han and Chewie all the way down to Wedge and Admiral Ackbar are memorable and loveable.

    The PT is so bad. There are so few things right with it, I will name them. Neeson and McGregor in the first one were a good combination. Jar-Jar, one of the most hidously annoying characters of all time, was actually the reason that the Emporer was able to get control of the senate and thus could be blamed for the whole thing, the storm troopers being originally used by the Jedi.... and that's it.

    There is so much wrong with the PT that I can't even begin to name it all. First off, ROTS is simply just CGI and lightsabre duels. The start of the Clones film should have been incredible, but instead that massive space battle is in no context whatsoever, it is simply backdrop for the fight with Grevious. This just sums up how bad Lucas got the prequals. He gave up substance and storyline for a wow factor in special effects.

    I like that people have already mentioned the mid-clorion thing. It was perfectly explained by Yoda in the OT, the explanation in the new ones was horrible.

    My big problem with the second two films from PT was Hayden Christiansen. I don't think there has ever been a worse actor than that man. I've never seen him with any other expression that painfully bored in a film. McGregor and Neeson, as I mentioned before as personal highlights of the trilogy, were able to ressurect Lucas' awful dialouge. Christianson was just terrible, in every single way. It didn't help that Anakin was written to be a complete whingy douche, but a good actor could have at least added a little charm or charisma to the role. It's a bad sign when I actually wanted Obi Wan to kill Anakin rather than leave him dying.

  98. #98
    I'm serial viva_la_raza's Avatar
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    Also, both Family Guy Star Wars specils have been fantastic. A personal highlight:

    "Hold your fire. There are no lifeforms aboard."
    "Hold your fire? What are we, saving by the laser now?"
    "You don't do the budget Terry, I do!"

  99. #99
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    What did Admiral Ackbar say when he saw Episode I?


  100. #100
    Hell is for Heroes Second City Saint's Avatar
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    CONCENTRATE ALL FIRE POWER ON THAT FILM PROJECTOR

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