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Thread: The Star Wars thread

  1. #201
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    N3RD!

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    usa
    Oh yeah?
    Well...

    N1ST!

    Take that...
    My N is two Ns faster than your N, so yeah...

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    He doesn't like you...

  4. #204
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    I have the death sentence in 12 syst3ms.

  5. #205
    Hell is for Heroes Second City Saint's Avatar
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    That is the Star Wars equivalent of a permaban.

  6. #206
    Old men talking! One Man Gang's Avatar
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    Speaking of permabans in the star wars universe, I think we should have seen Jango disintegrate someone. Zam Wesell would have been good.

  7. #207
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Jango Fett? Jango Jett? WHERE?!

  8. #208
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    Had a slight weapons malfunction, but everything's perfectly alright now. We're fine, we're all fine, here, now, thank you. How are you?


  9. #209
    Old men talking! One Man Gang's Avatar
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    Ambu Fett? Ambu Fett? WHERE?!

  10. #210
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    HAN SOLO FFS

  11. #211
    ◥◤◥◤◥◤◥◤◥◤◥◤◥◤◥◤ Bill Casey's Avatar
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    I was watching the special features of episode two, and George Lucas is sitting there talking about how labored Yoda should be. He was telling everyone that Yoda should be out of breath just walking across the room, and to slow down all of his movements. And some other guy is talking about how Frank Oz made Yoda like that and how it brought life to the character and all this shit...

    Then,

    George Lucas wants him to fight like "The illegitimate child of Kermit and Miss Piggy" jumping ten feet through the air and keeps telling everyone to speed him up and do all of this kung fu Clint Eastwood bullshit...

    And on the special features, this is like five minutes from when he was explaining to them that Yoda should barely be able to move...

    I don't even have words for it. It's just mind bottling...

  12. #212
    Hell is for Heroes Second City Saint's Avatar
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    I can actually see the logic behind that as while he's fighting the force is no doubt flowing through him like crazy.


    Sorry to defend Episode II

  13. #213
    Basic Bish virmicious's Avatar
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    Sounds pretty good to me. Fucking fanboys going round ruining everything. Assholes.

  14. #214
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneManGang View Post
    Speaking of permabans in the star wars universe, I think we should have seen Jango disintegrate someone. Zam Wesell would have been good.
    Yeah, that would have been a nice touch, and would have made sense. To absolutely ensure Zam couldn't talk a disintegration would have been pretty effective. Plus maybe without the dart, we could have avoided the scene in Dex's Diner. I really didn't like that scene for some reason, even the first time I saw it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Second City Saint View Post
    I can actually see the logic behind that as while he's fighting the force is no doubt flowing through him like crazy.
    Yeah I can see the logic there as well. Yoda's disciplined enough to allow his age to catch up with him in any regular setting, but if kick ass he must, kick ass he shall. Totally agree with all the suggestions that he should have not been seen fighting until going mental on the Emperor though. His fight with Dooku in II was entirely unnecessary, except it was the only highlight in the film, and without that moment of awe, Episode II probably would have felt even worse.

    I happened to see the latter half or so of the Clone Wars movie yesterday. Ugh. Words cannot describe it. 'Clone Wars' certainly cannot describe it, either, since most of it seemed to be devoted to Anakin and some Twi'Lek running around, saving the baby of the most ruthless Hutt in the galaxy. Had sod all to do with the Clone Wars. Kind of like Attack of the Clones...

    You would think after all that, though, in Return of the Jedi, Jabba might react to meeting a Jedi named Skywalker with something other than "bwahahahaha" and "he is no Jedi".

  15. #215
    Hell is for Heroes Second City Saint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mike View Post
    Plus maybe without the dart, we could have avoided the scene in Dex's Diner. I really didn't like that scene for some reason, even the first time I saw it.
    That scene is remarkably out of place in a Star Wars film.

  16. #216
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    They are showing Episode IV on the tube here in Sweden right now, watching it got me thinking about the rumored Star Wars series that was suposed to take place between episodes III and IV. Anyone heard anything new on this or has it been scrapped?

  17. #217
    Old men talking! One Man Gang's Avatar
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    Its still on. Pre-production officially began last spring. But there's little leaked to show for it. I think we're looking at a 2011/2012 premiere. Since this has been in the works since 2005, I have to confess this process is moving at a snails pace. They've tried to keep our interest with the clone wars cartoons, but frankly its a different medium that most fans are not interested in.

  18. #218
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Just a heads up, but George Lucas is going to be on The Daily Show tonight (Tuesday night) at midnight. It'll be re-aired on Wednesday.


    Not sure what'll be talked about, but yeah...

  19. #219
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    sweden
    Probably an CGI remake of Young Indiana Jones.

  20. #220
    for aiur grimshaw's Avatar
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    The diner scene didn't work, but it's not out of place. They were going for the same vibe you see in the Cantina and the rest of Mos Eisley, and it just didn't quite come off is all.

  21. #221
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grimshaw View Post
    The diner scene didn't work, but it's not out of place. They were going for the same vibe you see in the Cantina and the rest of Mos Eisley, and it just didn't quite come off is all.
    They already had that in the same film about ten minutes earlier with the Cantina on the lower levels of Coruscant. The diner scene just ended up feeling like Pulp Fiction meets some cartoon with awkward dialogue. Out of place was the phrase I was looking for, myself. Just really didn't seem like part of the Star Wars world and made no sense being fitted into the film.

  22. #222
    Old men talking! One Man Gang's Avatar
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    Every star wars film has a few eating and drinking scenes.

    ANH - The Lars Homestead, The Cantina, and the Dianoga trying to eat Luke.

    TESB- Wampa eating, Luke and Yoda eating twice on Dagobah, the monster eating R2-D2, the space slug trying to eat the heroes while the Mynocks try to eat the ship, and the Bespin dinner table.

    ROTJ - Jabba eating, the Rancor eating Oola, the guard, and trying to eat Luke, the creature outside Jabbas palace eating the other thing, The Sarlacc pitt, Chewie trying to eat the meat in the trap, Leia eating a cracker with Wicket, and the feast in 3PO's honor.

    TPM - Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan drink on the TF ship, there's always a bigger fish sequence, Jar Jar eating the thing at the Vendors place, the eating scene in Shmi's home, the apples Anakin and company get from Jira, and Jabba eating during the race.

    In AOTC we had...

    1) Outlander Nightclub (where people were drinking at least)
    2) Dex's Diner (where people were eating and drinking
    3) The Refugee ship (where Anakin and Padme ate)
    4) Padme's Parents House which was cut (where Padme and Anakin ate dinner)
    5) The Lake Retreat (where Padme and Anakin ate)
    6) The Lars Homestead (they drank at the table)
    7) The Geonosis Arena (which was one big feast for the monsters)

    ROTS - A deleted scene where Senators drink, a deleted scene where the Nos Monster tries to eat Obi-Wan, ..... did anybody eat or drink in this movie?

  23. #223
    Winston Nicks A Lilt. Alf's Avatar
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    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ_v1jh99t0[/ame]

    The daily show interview with George Lucas...

  24. #224
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Who are these children that love Jar-Jar Binks and find the original trilogy boring? Lucas' argument that it's all about nostalgia and we only prefer the old movies because they're old doesn't wash at all. The old movies did not have the massive flaws running through them that the prequels contain. I love that the audience laughed when he even suggested anyone liked Jar-Jar.

  25. #225
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    My nephew liked Jar-Jar and the Gungans in The Phantom Menace, he was 8 at the time.

    I almost fell out of my chair at the cinema when I saw him for the first time though.

  26. #226
    PurePlayer
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    Just watched Episode IV, the first Star Wars film I have ever seen. I liked it enough to watch the rest. I have heard nothing but good things about Episode V so I am looking forward to it. I am reluctant to watch the newer ones though from what I hear.

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mike View Post
    The old movies did not have the massive flaws running through them that the prequels contain.
    Incest.

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mike View Post
    Who are these children that love Jar-Jar Binks and find the original trilogy boring? Lucas' argument that it's all about nostalgia and we only prefer the old movies because they're old doesn't wash at all. The old movies did not have the massive flaws running through them that the prequels contain. I love that the audience laughed when he even suggested anyone liked Jar-Jar.
    Jake Lloyd claimed to loved Jar-Jar in interviews done circa TPM, fucking brat.

    Also, I have loads of family that enjoy Star Wars on more than just a 'cool film' level, ages ranging from 'saw ANH in theaters as a kid' to 'RotS came on DVD before birth.' NONE of them like Jar-Jar, the Clone Wars, or anything related to the prequels (Jedi Power Battles for Dreamcast, Podracing for N64, and action figures excluded).

  29. #229
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Jake Lloyd is a demon spawn.
    Quote Originally Posted by PurePlayer View Post
    Just watched Episode IV, the first Star Wars film I have ever seen. I liked it enough to watch the rest. I have heard nothing but good things about Episode V so I am looking forward to it. I am reluctant to watch the newer ones though from what I hear.
    I hate the prequels, aside from the third film which was much better than the other two. That said, I'll be very interested in your reaction to them, as you didn't grow up with the original trilogy.

  30. #230
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alf View Post
    Incest.
    It was one kiss which, while we know was actually caused by Lucas lumping for Leia as the 'other' when he couldn't figure out how to squeeze another new character into the Jedi script, wasn't exactly a big problem. Certainly not on the level of the mind-blowing contradictions and screw ups in the PT.

    Though you are probably just having a laugh, thought I'd put out the argument anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Second City Saint View Post
    Jake Lloyd claimed to loved Jar-Jar in interviews done circa TPM, fucking brat.
    Bet by the time Clones came out he was pretty damn pissed he didn't get to keep the role...

    Also, I have loads of family that enjoy Star Wars on more than just a 'cool film' level, ages ranging from 'saw ANH in theaters as a kid' to 'RotS came on DVD before birth.' NONE of them like Jar-Jar, the Clone Wars, or anything related to the prequels (Jedi Power Battles for Dreamcast, Podracing for N64, and action figures excluded).
    Jedi Power Battles was pretty good on the PSOne.

  31. #231
    for aiur grimshaw's Avatar
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    Also, I have loads of family that enjoy Star Wars on more than just a 'cool film' level, ages ranging from 'saw ANH in theaters as a kid' to 'RotS came on DVD before birth.' NONE of them like Jar-Jar, the Clone Wars, or anything related to the prequels (Jedi Power Battles for Dreamcast, Podracing for N64, and action figures excluded).
    I've never seen it, but never heard anything but good things about the Clone Wars series.

  32. #232
    The New Gen
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    There are only two things that I really found awesome about the prequel movies.

    1 -- Anakin's reaction when he finds out that his mother dies. The movie came out only a few months after my own mother had passed away and I was filled with very different emotions. Some of which were anger. Anger at the doctors that she had in hospital when she first fell ill who told someone that had had a family history of people passing away through cancer/leukemia that the only thing that they could give her was guaranteed 110% to end up giving her luekemia. As I was present when the doctor said this and knew her immediate response, I still question to this day -- what medicinal product can give someone luekemia?

    Anger at my mother for basically giving up and resigning herself to her death following that one piece of advice and not taking the issue further to go and see other specialists, other doctors. She had a skin condition (awful psoriasis) that she allowed to become worse than three-degree burns (to over two thirds of her body) (according to the autopsy people) and allowed it to run her other systems down (dying as an indirect result of the condition because her immune system ended up failing because of it). Also a part of me is angry that as an only child I was forced to give up my years from 18 through my 22nd birthday to take care of her around the clock, although I performed a son's duties and would always do it again if I had to (On a a related note I find it somewhat odd and shocking when people tell me how wonderful that was and that they could never do that, say what? You wouldn't take care of your own mother?). This came right on top of suffering through glandular fever / chronic fatigue that wiped me out from shortly after my 16th birthday to just after she fell ill -- so I ended up not having any important and normal experiences from 16 through 22 (the foundation of the rest of your life, in my opinion - so I'm still behind, a little).

    and the other part of the prequel trilogy that I found to be pretty awesome was the first scene of Anakin as Darth Vader.

  33. #233
    Maximum Effort. Bert's Avatar
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  34. #234
    Old men talking! One Man Gang's Avatar
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    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM5X_wEfuK4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM5X_wEfuK4[/ame]

    Something I whipped up.

  35. #235
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocolateThunder View Post
    what medicinal product can give someone luekemia?
    Some forms of chemotherapy can give someone leukaemia. Sorry to hear about your mother.

    and the other part of the prequel trilogy that I found to be pretty awesome was the first scene of Anakin as Darth Vader.
    The one where he goes "Noooooooo!"?

  36. #236
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

  37. #237
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    I'm not one to poke fun at someone who found some sort of comfort in the films following hardship, especially going through leukemia myself, but I think it's hysterical that this fellow thought moments previously described by atty & I as ridiculous as awesome.

  38. #238
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    I HATE HIM!!1!1!!

  39. #239
    Hell is for Heroes Second City Saint's Avatar
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    Star Wars shoes, courtesy of Adidas

    http://www.shoebizsf.com/product_detail/1309/Yoda.html

    I actually like the X Wing ones.

  40. #240
    PurePlayer
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    Empire was amazing. That is all.

  41. #241
    The Stale Smell of Excess Jimmy Zero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurePlayer View Post
    Empire was amazing. That is all.
    Easily my favorite of the series.

    Is that generally considered the best amongst the faithful? I'm not a Star Wars geek at all, but I do love the original trilogy.

  42. #242
    In the end virus21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Zero View Post
    but I do love the original trilogy.
    As do I. I felt the prequels fell flat. They were good movies overall, but there was some much they should have done better.

  43. #243
    Hell is for Heroes Second City Saint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Zero View Post
    Easily my favorite of the series.

    Is that generally considered the best amongst the faithful? I'm not a Star Wars geek at all, but I do love the original trilogy.
    From what I've gathered throughout the years, that's true. I'm part of that as well.

    5
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  44. #244
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  45. #245
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    Im curious to those who know of any novelization or further background/story based on Han Solo besides the original trilogy. Did they ever expand that part of the Universe besides what we're given in the trilogy in any novelization or further update?

    I think part of what made the original trilogy so good was Han himself. He brought that down to earth aspect to the story that IMO really sorta lacked in the new trilogy.

  46. #246
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  47. #247
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReDPath View Post
    I think part of what made the original trilogy so good was Han himself. He brought that down to earth aspect to the story that IMO really sorta lacked in the new trilogy.
    Yes! I think you've hit the nail on the head there. While there were obviously other problems, (some significant), whenever I talk to laypeople about what they thought of the PT, this is nearly always the first thing out of their mouth: "There was no Han Solo-type character".

    Qui-Gon is about as close as we get to the loveable rogue, and he's only roguish by the massively conservative Jedi standards. Plus he dies in the first film and appears to have no sense of humour.

  48. #248
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    Episode II is on right now and since I've not found anything to replace Monday Night Football yet, I'm watching it

    I absolutely hate the way Anakin addresses the bar when saying "Jedi business, go back to your drinks." So pompous and arrogant in how he says that. What the hell was up with that?

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    His estrogen was what was up.

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    I don't think anyone was a bigger fuck up with wooden acting than lil Boba Fett. I actually believe he's worse than Hayden.

    Much smaller role, though.

  51. #251
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    fire!

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    Get him dad!



    haha yeah!

  53. #253
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    Dad, Ton Wii's here!



    ugh

  54. #254
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    That might've been his best line, to be fair. And that would explain why he's the absolute worst.

  55. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mike View Post
    Yes! I think you've hit the nail on the head there. While there were obviously other problems, (some significant), whenever I talk to laypeople about what they thought of the PT, this is nearly always the first thing out of their mouth: "There was no Han Solo-type character".
    I would also say that there's no Luke or Leia type characters either...

    I mean, Leia was an anti-princess and Luke was a guy who always dreamed of being a space adventurer...
    Speaking of the dreamer, It's time for some binary sunset...

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEUGF3NGbPg[/ame]

  56. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Casey View Post
    I would also say that there's no Luke or Leia type characters either...

    I mean, Leia was an anti-princess and Luke was a guy who always dreamed of being a space adventurer...
    Well, Padme was in the Leia-mold in Episode I. Fiesty royalty who was willing to get her hands dirty and fight for what was right, no matter the sacrifices she had to make. Anakin operated rather like Luke in that he had always dreamed of getting off the same dust ball and having adventures, to the point that he was risking his life in crazy races (Luke was written to have flown rather recklessly in his T-16 Skyhopper but this didn't quite come across in the script). After Episode I though, Padme became your stereotypical eye candy damsel in distress and Anakin became... well a murderer for a start.

    This is a big problem with the PT. There are no characters we can really relate to. Anakin is our central figure but in the first film he's 9 years old and doesn't even appear until half-way through, so we're not introduced to the world through his eyes and there isn't a lot we can relate to in a 9 year old slave with superhuman abilities. By Episode II he's grown up to become an entirely different person, an arrogant, moody, murderous bastard who is the most powerful Jedi ever and very swiftly ensnares a beautiful Senator. Who here has a life like that? I understand it's fantasy, these characters are always going to be somewhat distant, but as archetypes the OT at least people we could be comfortable and familiar. I'm not at all comfortable with Anakin. He doesn't seem like a real person, and after Episode I neither does anyone else, except maybe Obi-Wan.

  57. #257
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    Well, Padme was in the Leia-mold in Episode I. Fiesty royalty who was willing to get her hands dirty and fight for what was right, no matter the sacrifices she had to make.
    Padme was like Leia because Padme was Feisty?
    That's like saying that Ewoks are like Wookies because Ewoks are really tall...
    Last edited by Bill Casey; January 19th, 2010 at 4:54 PM.

  58. #258
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Casey View Post
    Padme was like Leia because Padme was Feisty?
    That's like saying that Ewoks are like Wookies because Ewoks are really tall...
    She didn't take crap from anyone in the senate and launched her own insurgency against an occupying power, rushing into the heat of the battle herself. She wasn't exactly a shrinking violet.

  59. #259
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    QUEEN AMIDALA: Beware, Viceroy. the Federation is going too far this time.

    PRINCESS LEIA: Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Vader's leash. I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board.



    QUEEN AMIDALA: I am sorry for my deception, but under the circumstances it has become necessary to protect myself. Although we do not always agree, Your honor, our two great societies have always lived in peace... until now.

    PRINCESS LEIA: (Right after being rescued) Aren't you a little short to be a Storm Trooper?



    QUEEN AMIDALA: Throw down your weapons. They win this round.

    PRINCESS LEIA: (grabs Luke's gun and shoots the grate) Somebody has to save our skins.



    QUEEN AMIDALA: (Jar Jar Binks Scares the shit out of her) That's all right.

    PRINCESS LEIA: (Chewbacca does nothing) Would someone get this walking carpet out of my way?

  60. #260
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Casey View Post
    QUEEN AMIDALA: Beware, Viceroy. the Federation is going too far this time.

    PRINCESS LEIA: Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Vader's leash. I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board.
    These are different situations. Amidala is trying to assert herself against the might of the Trade Federation whilst not pissing them off too much in order to save her planet. Leia is a prisoner and knows she's screwed already.

    QUEEN AMIDALA: I am sorry for my deception, but under the circumstances it has become necessary to protect myself. Although we do not always agree, Your honor, our two great societies have always lived in peace... until now.

    PRINCESS LEIA: (Right after being rescued) Aren't you a little short to be a Storm Trooper?
    How are these two even related? Amidala is trying desperately to negotiate an alliance with a race it is inferred her people haven't treated all that well in the past (I know this quote says otherwise, but the subtext is there, there's a reason Boss Nass doesn't like the Naboo) in order to save their planet, and Leia, having already been sentenced to death, is just screwing around with what she thinks is another mindless stormtrooper. It was before Luke even took his helmet off as well, she hadn't been rescued yet.

    QUEEN AMIDALA: Throw down your weapons. They win this round.

    PRINCESS LEIA: (grabs Luke's gun and shoots the grate) Somebody has to save our skins.
    Totally different situations. Amidala isn't stupid, and she had a plan at that point anyway. She did run headlong into the Throne Room of an occupied palace, blasting everything in sight until getting cornered. She's not exactly spineless.

    QUEEN AMIDALA: (Jar Jar Binks Scares the shit out of her) That's all right.

    PRINCESS LEIA: (Chewbacca does nothing) Would someone get this walking carpet out of my way?
    I'll give you that one.

  61. #261
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    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvBGVXTWgmg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvBGVXTWgmg[/ame]


    amazing

  62. #262
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Really is.

    And...



    Too cute!

  63. #263
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    OK, SCS this to me and I really it's a great idea but we should have a Star Wars chat on MSN. We already do RAW, SD and PPVs quite frequently and I think there would be a good appeal in working through the series whilst on MSN. As has been the case with a lot of RAWs, the chat can add to the experience a good deal and even Episodes I and II could be fun to skewer.

    And, of course, it'll be glorious to talk about the utter perfection that is Empire.


    Anywho, discuss whether everyone would be up for something like this and when to do it, etc...

  64. #264
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    I'd be in.

  65. #265
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    Red Two, standing by.

  66. #266
    Hell is for Heroes Second City Saint's Avatar
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    I feel like I could take on the whole Empire myself.

  67. #267
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    So I am now on the Attack of the Clones. I really liked the Phantom Menace more than I thought I would. Just knowing what would happen with Anakin turning to the Dark Side made watching him as a 9 year old boy seem pretty surreal.

  68. #268
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    Hey! Hit the nose!

  69. #269
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    I finished the Star Wars saga today. I went into the prequel trilogy thinking they were going to be below average, and I must say I was completely surprised. The loved them all, especially Revenge of the Sith. I kind of want to watch them again, but in chronological order.

  70. #270
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    Not being a dick, just genuinely curious - what was it about the prequels you liked? Special effects? Story?

    I'm always interested when people have the minority opinion on the prequels like yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Second City Saint View Post
    Not being a dick, just genuinely curious - what was it about the prequels you liked? Special effects? Story?

    I'm always interested when people have the minority opinion on the prequels like yourself.
    To jump in, I liked Episode 3 quite a bit. There are still problems with it, but it's much more enjoyable than the other prequels for me. This may sound weird in talking about an action film, but my main complaint with ROTS would be that there were too many duels and action sequences. Everything in that film came down to a lightsaber duel and that wears thin on me—especially on repeated viewings. I'd much rather have seen the Grievous fight presented entirely different, in a manner that contrasted the sabersaturation that went on in the film.

    The other one I'd like to have had done differently is the fight in the Senate office. I've mentioned before, but I think it was a bad choice to show Sidious duel with Windu and the other Jedi in his office. I think it would have been more effective had they cut away at "It's treason then" and cut to Anakin racing to save him. Anakin walks in on Jedi corpses and sees an old man begging for his life. The Emperor busting out a big fight was a fairly huge deal and it would have been much more effective (in my view) seeing him fight for the first time with Yoda.

    My other criticisms about the film would be the Qui Jon thing, Leia's amazing memory in Jedi and one scene that I've always felt was missing—a scene showing Vader unleashed. As they ended the film, Obi Wan and Yoda basically bested their rivals, yet run away for twenty years to hide. That always seemed like something that needed more explanation to me. A scene with a suited up Vader tracking down Yoda and Obi Wan with Luke (after Bail had taken Leia) could have solved that. Vader hands both of them their asses, knows about Luke (but not Leia) and they run off to hide... And Vader schemes and silently searches for his son behind the Emperor's back for 20 years...

    Despite those complaints, I do like that film a lot. It's just one of those films that I've seen enough where what's wrong with it really stands out to me. I absolutely love a lot of it. A few edits and it could have been really great. Who knows, Lucas may fix it yet...

    I also remember liking Episode 2 a ton the first time I saw it—at a packed midnight showing with an insane crowd. Going back the next day to see it again was quite a let down. It's one of those films where you can get wrapped up in the action and miss what a hollow experience it was. And why did they bother calling Zam a changeling?


    Wow, that ended up being much longer than I intended.


  72. #272
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    I think there was a lot of good in the prequel trilogy, but anyone will agree they didnt live up to the expectation of the audience because the vision was a little confused, the target audience had been changed and that didnt match up, and there were fewer iconic characters and moments because of hastily written script. I wish Lucas had listened to the views of the faithful and accepted that there are people out there in the fan-fiction community much more talented than he is.

    Lucas' strength as a director is in visually making things. In the original trilogy he created worlds which went against type, the so called "lived in universe".
    He took visual cues from history, from a range of different cultures and from mythology, and he did something people had never seen before. The first half of the original story is very slow-paced, it gave us, as viewers, the chance to explore this amazing world Lucas had created through the eyes of Luke, who was experiencing a lot for the first time himself.
    In the prequel trilogy there is so much back story to squeeze in, the obligation to show scenes which worked fine as a passing comment and fueled the viewers imagination.

    For me, the clone wars was something which was so much more epic in my head, the "dark times" which Obi Wan referred to were intentionally lacking detail and it the story worked because it was one man's (Luke) journey through all this new stuff, the guy came from such simple beginnings to changing the face of the galaxy. We empathised with him and his friends because we had been with him on this journey. It worked better as a story because it was from a personal perspective. Think of Empire, which most people would say is the best of the series, and it is full of sequences where the friendship between the main characters is just as important, if not more important that the larger story. Think of Han and Leia and their love-hate relationship, Luke on Dagobah finding realising his destiny, Lando and his personal political struggles against the empire. We saw the whole trilogy through the eyes of Luke, Han, Leia, Lando , Chewbacca, 3PO and R2.

    The prequel trilogy aimed to tell the larger story of the galaxy, but we were witnesses to "history" as opposed to history through the eyes of people who are living it. I see it as a documentary of sorts, which explains the back-story of the struggles our original heroes. Its different.

    Now, at last, I will bring this back on topic.
    The better sequences in the prequel trilogy were the ones which harked back to the personalities and characters rather than the bigger picture. At the time, the acting of Ian McDiarmid, who played Palpatine was highly praised, and I think with very good reason. His scenes as the manipulator, the antagonist and his twisted relationship with Anakin were full of gravitas, and helped the films a great deal. Although Hayden Christensen was a terrible actor, ROTS was an improvement because he was working with McDiarmid, and the audience hung on his every word. I think his relationship with Obi Wan was good, and I wish the films had focused more on that bitter-sweet friendship and brotherhood as a means of moving the story on. There were times, such as the beginning of AOTC where they were shown working together and bickering like brothers, which saved the film from being utterly terrible. Unfortunately these were ruined by cheesy one-liners and implausible set-pieces which ruined the banter between them.

    I liked the scenes where we are allowed to explore the galaxy. The blade-runner style Coreillia (sp) was exciting, and some of the scenes on Tattooine in Phantom were interesting.

    I loved Darth Maul, I loved the depth charges, i loved Count Dooku, i loved order 66.

  73. #273
    PurePlayer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Second City Saint View Post
    Not being a dick, just genuinely curious - what was it about the prequels you liked? Special effects? Story?

    I'm always interested when people have the minority opinion on the prequels like yourself.
    I loved the evolution of Anakin's character, everything from his relationships with his mother, Padme, Obi, and Palpatine to how he came more and more skilled as the series went on. For example, he couldn't defeat Count Dukoo even with the help of Obi but then defeated him on his own the next time.

    The fight scenes in Episode II and III were fantastic as well. Yoda vs. Palpatine, Anakin vs. Obi, Windu vs. Anakin/Palpatine in III, and the stadium battles in Episode II were great as well.

    I think it had more to do with the fact I saw Episode IV, V, and VI first that I enjoyed these movies more as far-fetched as that sounds. I think the hype is what hurt this trilogy for a lot of people which is something I didn't have going in.

  74. #274
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    I think the only things I actually enjoyed about the Prequels were Darth Maul and Count Dooku, though I was not impressed with the lack of attention given to the former (and I understand he was not an integral part). The idea of having a, possibly the, master swordsman Jedi testing Yoda and being bested by Anakin was fantastic. It really made me want to see a Yoda/Anakin showdown as much as I would've regretted that.

    Sifo Diyas, however, was probably one of the dumbest things I can ever think of in the history of cinema and I'm not exaggerating when I say that, either.

  75. #275
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    This may be heresy, but I've always felt the Obi/Anakin duel in III is overrated. Sure, there's amazing swordplay, but it's almost too precise and always seems full of itself to me. Especially when they're floating on robots over lava. Yoda/Palpatine and Dooku/Anakin are my favorites from III and probably from the prequels in general. Loved how to the point the Dooku duel was—they're both master swordsmen and it ends quickly. Yoda/Sidious was a load of fun as it was different from every other Star Wars fight we had, as it was two guys just using the force by the end and ditching the sabers.

    I watched III again last night and must say something I loved was the sequence at the beginning where Anakin lands the wrecked ship that's crashing through the atmosphere. Perfect scene, apart from Obi Wan saying "another happy landing" after Anakin killed everyone in the control tower. Loved seeing Anakin's actual piloting skills that Old Ben raved about in the original film. The opera scene is probably the best scene in the prequels just for Ian McDiarmid's wonderful performance in wrapping Anakin's strings around his fingers.

  76. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurePlayer View Post
    I loved the evolution of Anakin's character, everything from his relationships with his mother, Padme, Obi, and Palpatine to how he came more and more skilled as the series went on. For example, he couldn't defeat Count Dukoo even with the help of Obi but then defeated him on his own the next time.
    An interesting point of view. I really didn't see much evolution in Anakin, rather I saw his character and abilities being written to fit whichever given scene he was in at the time than following any sort of arc. He started out missing his mother and when he can't sleep in a freezing spaceship and Padme talks to him, he seems drawn to her and possibly psychologically replaces his mother with her, but in the same scene we find he already loves her so much he made some jewellery for her. Then he only mentions his mother one more time until having recurring dreams ten years later that she is being tortured and killed and even though he knows he can see the future he doesn't bother going to find her until it's too late. His relationship with Padme consists of staring at her, kissing her and telling her he murdered a village full of sentient beings. And not just the men, but the women and the children too... And his relationship with Obi-Wan seemed to bounce back and forth between love and resentment on Anakin's part. This one I'll grant you is more realistic, but I never felt that it developed. He seemed as pissed with Obi-Wan in the very middle of Episode II as he did at the very end of Episode III, it's just Obi-Wan wasn't around to bear the brunt of it in II. I'd argue his sabre skills didn't really develop in a linear manner either, since in Episode II he got his ass kicked by Dooku even with help, then in III he was able to maul Dooku (see what I did there? :P) easily after Obi-Wan got his ass handed to him... then Obi-Wan proves to be at least as good as Anakin later that same film when they are deadlocked until Ani makes a stupid, arrogant mistake. So while I disagree, I'm interested to know where you saw him evolve. After all, so many things depend greatly on our point of view.

    His relationship with Palpatine, meanwhile, I felt was very well written and did seem to grow in a natural arc which made sense. As said, McDairmid's performance was masterful, and so too was the character's playing of Anakin. Just before Anakin finds out about his true nature, he has managed to trap him in needing the Emperor alive to help him, creating for himself an intensely loyal servant. This part is so well done it makes me wonder how Lucas was capable of such poor writing for many other parts of the story and other characters.

    The fight scenes in Episode II and III were fantastic as well. Yoda vs. Palpatine, Anakin vs. Obi, Windu vs. Anakin/Palpatine in III, and the stadium battles in Episode II were great as well.
    Personally I found the fight scenes too chaotic and colourful to enjoy. It just seemed like a mass of lights and noise and I'm not sure how smart the public execution of a Senator and two Jedi Knights would have been on the part of the Separatists. This was before the war had started, remember, and the reasons for the execution seem to be "because we feel like it". In the novel, I believe Nute Gunray pressed for it because he hates Amidala so much, and we see a flash of this in his yelling "kill her!" but naturally it was left largely unexplained in the film because Lucas needed more room for explosions and is stupid enough to think that people won't sit through a three hour Star Wars film.

    Perhaps Dooku was under orders to see to it that the war starts no matter what and saw this as a terrific opportunity but on screen it just came off as an excuse for a big fight scene. And an excuse to tie up Natalie Portman and tear off some of her clothes.

    I think the hype is what hurt this trilogy for a lot of people which is something I didn't have going in.
    I think it would have been exceedingly difficult for the films to live up to the hype, absolutely. However, I don't think that is why most fans feel let down. If the trilogy had somehow managed to become Godfather quality, people still may have expected more because it just doesn't quite fit with the picture they had built in their heads over twenty years, but I'd argue that ultimately (sorry for flogging a horse which is no more here) it was the writing that let the fans down. The story has such little cohesion and Lucas seemed to suffer ADHD as he wrote, constantly getting distracted with new ideas for shiny cool things for ILM to animate, always losing focus on the core characters and what they were doing and why they were doing it.


    Also to atnumbers about Zam: They called her a changeling because her species could morph their physical appearance, handy in various criminal activities. I'm guessing what you meant really though was why did they bother making her a changeling when it has no bearing on the plot and she only changes momentarily as she dies, in which case I'm guessing because it looked cool. Seriously, you're right, it was pointless.

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    MASHY SPIKE PLATE Excel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    The opera scene is probably the best scene in the prequels just for Ian McDiarmid's wonderful performance in wrapping Anakin's strings around his fingers.[/CENTER]
    Definately. While not the most epic scene or the one that brought the most emotion, it was a fine example of characterisation, and McDiarmid shows a level of perfomance that leaves me wondering why he's not considered up there with the best actors of this generation and has had so little work... relatively speaking

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mike View Post
    Also to atnumbers about Zam: They called her a changeling because her species could morph their physical appearance, handy in various criminal activities. I'm guessing what you meant really though was why did they bother making her a changeling when it has no bearing on the plot and she only changes momentarily as she dies, in which case I'm guessing because it looked cool. Seriously, you're right, it was pointless.
    Exactly, thats likely the reason it was done. However... think about it this way, did we question why the guy in the Cantina in episode 4 have scars all over his face? It had no bearing on the plot or on the motivations of the characters. It just kinda looked cool. You could argue that it made him look more dangerous and gave him a backstory that he was a hardened criminal. But then you could also argue that Zam as a changeling because its handy in various criminal activities. Giving her a bit of backstory. I took it as being part of showing us the galaxy they live in. No different to creating a "lived in" universe in the PT. Sure it added nothing to the plot. But assuming Star Wars was real, well there might be an assassin who was a changeling, so why not show it? There are too many humans in their galaxy as it is, though not as bad as Star Trek.
    Last edited by Excel; February 12th, 2010 at 7:20 PM.

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    I wish they'd find or rerecord the lost music from ROTJ. That and give us a prequel trilogy complete recordings.



    Max Rebo Band Jabba palace music (best quality we can get and missing plenty)

    http://maxreboband.webs.com/Max%20Re...0Length%29.mp3


    Lapti Nek original (though missing sections)

    http://maxreboband.webs.com/Max%20Re...nal%29%202.mp3


    Sail Barge music (best quality we have and missing plenty)

    http://maxreboband.webs.com/Max%20Re...ge%20Dance.mp3


    Doodniks Cafe (music composed for ROTJ but cut and played during the Droids cartoon apparently)

    http://maxreboband.webs.com/Max%20Re...iks%20Cafe.mp3

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    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Excel View Post
    Definately. While not the most epic scene or the one that brought the most emotion, it was a fine example of characterisation, and McDiarmid shows a level of perfomance that leaves me wondering why he's not considered up there with the best actors of this generation and has had so little work... relatively speaking
    I actually thought at the time (and still think) McDiarmid should have gotten a supporting Oscar nod for Sidious. He's so far above and beyond everything else in the prequels and so wonderfully seductive. Anyone else with the same dialogue would have come off incredibly campy, but it managed to make it great. "I'm too weak" and "unlimited power" could have been the cheesiest lines ever, but he made them fantastic.


    There are too many humans in their galaxy as it is, though not as bad as Star Trek.
    To be fair to Trek, watch the TNG episode "The Chase." That explains why they all look humanoid. Basically, a dying alien species (who were humanoid) spread their basic DNA across the galaxy to preserve some remnant of their race. While they evolved differently on different planets, there are root links in the DNA in the Trek universe that connect most of the species.
    Last edited by Atty; February 13th, 2010 at 1:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excel View Post
    Exactly, thats likely the reason it was done. However... think about it this way, did we question why the guy in the Cantina in episode 4 have scars all over his face? It had no bearing on the plot or on the motivations of the characters. It just kinda looked cool. You could argue that it made him look more dangerous and gave him a backstory that he was a hardened criminal. But then you could also argue that Zam as a changeling because its handy in various criminal activities. Giving her a bit of backstory. I took it as being part of showing us the galaxy they live in. No different to creating a "lived in" universe in the PT. Sure it added nothing to the plot. But assuming Star Wars was real, well there might be an assassin who was a changeling, so why not show it? There are too many humans in their galaxy as it is, though not as bad as Star Trek.
    I think it's a bit different with someone in a Cantina having scars on their face, because that's passive compared to the action of Zam changing right in Obi-Wan's arms. The main characters take note that she's a changeling, then it isn't brought up again. It also kind of irked me that this role was meant for Aurra Sing, a character deliberately introduced in TPM, then Lucas' ADHD got the better of him once again, creating yet another new character (one who gets to sell two action figures) and a new concept (that the galaxy has changelings) that never went anywhere. It's not a huge deal, though, and you're right that it helps expand the scale of the universe and make it feel lived-in.

    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    I actually thought at the time (and still think) McDiarmid should have gotten a supporting Oscar nod for Sidious. He's so far above and beyond everything else in the prequels and so wonderfully seductive. Anyone else with the same dialogue would have come off incredibly campy, but it managed to make it great. "I'm too weak" and "unlimited power" could have been the cheesiest lines ever, but he made them fantastic.
    Totally agree. The character was masterfully portrayed and as an actor he had tremendous presence on-screen. He practically oozed through the opera scene in particular, he was so slick and seductive, and I just love how he keeps his eyes on opera while so innocently relating a story until finally, when mentioning that there was a way to keep people from dying, he turns to look right at Anakin and gauge his reaction. It's like watching a master fisherman, and at that moment he hooks his fish.

    Watching the PT overall, it's great to see his transformation from the rather sunny, well-meaning Senator to a Chancellor weighed down and weary with war to the pure darkness of the Emperor. I really enjoyed seeing his relationship with Anakin develop, and I wished we had been able to see more of his relations with Amidala as well. They were from the same planet and he was her representative and in turn she was his replacement, so I imagine in the background they interacted quite a bit, not to mention her being the key to controlling Anakin. Seeing more of his manipulation of her would have been very interesting.

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    Old men talking! One Man Gang's Avatar
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    I always liked how Palpatine went from friendly guy in TPM






    to Dracula in AOTC.


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    MASHY SPIKE PLATE Excel's Avatar
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    Makeup jobs on movies always look shit in stills like that

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    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mike View Post
    I really enjoyed seeing his relationship with Anakin develop, and I wished we had been able to see more of his relations with Amidala as well. They were from the same planet and he was her representative and in turn she was his replacement, so I imagine in the background they interacted quite a bit, not to mention her being the key to controlling Anakin. Seeing more of his manipulation of her would have been very interesting.
    There was more of that, but Lucas cut it because he didn't see it as important to developing his lightsaber fight...

    There a deleted scene with Padme, Anakin and Sidious on the Episode III dvd, where he's trying to drive a wedge between them and deciphering their relationship...


    Quote Originally Posted by OneManGang View Post
    I always liked how Palpatine went from friendly guy in TPM






    to Dracula in AOTC.

    To...


    To...


    To...

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    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    That would have been brilliant casting. Captain Kirk as the villain of the Star Wars universe? Yes, please.
    Episode 7: THE WRAITH OF KIRK—MAKE IT HAPPEN!

    Also...


    To...

    To...



    To...


    To...

  86. #286
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    There was more of that, but Lucas cut it because he didn't see it as important to developing his lightsaber fight...

    There a deleted scene with Padme, Anakin and Sidious on the Episode III dvd, where he's trying to drive a wedge between them and deciphering their relationship...
    Oh yeah, I had forgotten about that. It was the best acting Portman put into the trilogy, probably because she had something to do other than look pretty, and demonstrated the character's Leia-like guts in the face of authority while Palpatine still played her and Anakin like a fiddle. Delightful scene, but of course we needed five or six big sabre battles. A New Hope got by with one, between an old man and a cyborg who both could barely move.

    Even if Lucas really, really needed to squeeze in more explosions and stuff, I wouldn't mind if it weren't at the expense of important character development like this. There's no reason we couldn't have both, except for his stubborn insistence on keeping the films at 2 and a quarter to 2 and a half hours.

    Also, I'm pretty sure the current Pope murdered the old Pope in the Vatican by throwing chairs and lightning bolts at him.

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    Not seen that deleted scene yet.

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    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mike View Post
    Oh yeah, I had forgotten about that. It was the best acting Portman put into the trilogy, probably because she had something to do other than look pretty, and demonstrated the character's Leia-like guts in the face of authority while Palpatine still played her and Anakin like a fiddle. Delightful scene, but of course we needed five or six big sabre battles. A New Hope got by with one, between an old man and a cyborg who both could barely move.

    Even if Lucas really, really needed to squeeze in more explosions and stuff, I wouldn't mind if it weren't at the expense of important character development like this. There's no reason we couldn't have both, except for his stubborn insistence on keeping the films at 2 and a quarter to 2 and a half hours.

    Also, I'm pretty sure the current Pope murdered the old Pope in the Vatican by throwing chairs and lightning bolts at him.
    I put on the commentary to Episode III to help me sleep and it really struck me how full of himself Lucas is. In the opening he was talking about having to cut the beginning sequence from an hour down to 20 minutes or so. He then quickly gushed over the elevator sequence being integral (the first one, where the elevator goes down and then up) and how he couldn't cut it, yet he cut Shaak Ti being murdered by Grievous in front of Little Ani. It really made it clear to me that he falls in love with effects and then sees them as more valuable than story.

    And, seriously, scenes about the beginnings of the Rebellion and Padme's role in establishing it (which Lucas also cut) are more important than Anakin and Obi Wan walking a tightrope while dueling. Or them floating on robots over lava.

    But I guess he was under a lot of stress, R2...

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    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    You would think when scripting his opening scene it was approaching thirty or forty minutes Lucas would have realised "shit, I have to rein this in". Letting himself run that schmozz of explosions into an hour was ridiculous and really shows how little he cared for the story itself. When he has so much to force in to the last movie, largely because he botched the second one and told basically nothing in it, for him to start out by writing an hour long action sequence is utterly mindless. How can any writer sit down, look at the story left to tell, and decide "well, I still have time to piss about on a crashing ship for the first half of the movie"?

    I really wish Lucas had kept to his original plan of allowing other directors to take control of the PT movies. He would of course write the overall story, and could then go be in charge of overseeing ILM's contributions while people who know what they are doing took charge of the scripting and shooting. He's an ideas man, so full of ideas they seem to overflow and push old ideas out (see Sing/Zam, two different interpretations of the Force, etc.), and that's great for creating the world, but to make a movie set in that world really required some people with a lot more focus and discipline. I'm honestly starting to think the only reason ANH was so good was because time and technological constraints prevented Lucas from running riot with it.

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    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mike View Post
    I'm honestly starting to think the only reason ANH was so good was because time and technological constraints prevented Lucas from running riot with it.
    And because he had to justify what he was doing to Fox for money. His original ideas for it were... Um... Unique. The studio had so little faith in what he was presenting to them that they let him keep the merchandising rights. I can't help but think he rambled on for hours about a headless Darth Vader, the kyber crystal and so forth in meetings with the studio until they just said "Screw it" and let him control that end. He may have even gone on about how Vader had a helmet in the opening scene so he could fly through space (yes, you read that right.)

    His concepts can go really off on their own and having to answer to a studio and a budget was definitely a good thing for Lucas. Most involved in the original film thought it was a total piss by what George George Binks was saying about it.

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    Cirque du Soleil Chris's Avatar
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    I don't think there was anything wrong with the elevator scene, except for the droids' new "funny" voices. Lucas specifically states on the commentary that the scene was left in to continue building up the relationship with Obi-Wan and Anakin, conveying how they had gotten over their problems in Episode II. I don't see how this is a lack of caring about story, given that the final showdown hinges on it being two friends forced to fight to the death. If anything, we needed to see more of their relationship for it to have a bigger emotional impact.

    There are loads of scenes in films which originally ran long and had to be cut. Lucas's admission wasn't that surprising to me, and the hour could easily have been exaggerated. Fact is, it didn't go an hour and it was far from an explosive schmozz. It was focused on story throughout - Obi-Wan and Anakin now being powerful Jedi Knights who were friends, the introduction of Grevious, the rescue of the Chancellor and Palpatine's first attempt to seduce Anakin by encouraging him to kill Dooku. There was story everywhere in those 20 minutes, and some kick-ass action to go with it.

    Also, Rick McCallum says on the commentary that he wanted to see most of the elevator and R2 stuff cut because he felt it dragged. Yet he admitted he was completely wrong, because of how well audiences reacted to R2's scenes. I remember seeing it at the midnight showing, and the whole cinema was laughing during things like R2 trying to muffle the communicator or setting the battle droids on fire. It was nice to see R2 get some time to be the hero, since it's a staple of all the other Star Wars films.

    If there's one deleted scene I wanted to see kept in, it's Yoda landing on Dagobah. Does it even last 60 seconds? Absolutely no reason it couldn't have been put it, as it would have been a nice nod to Empire (especially if you were watching all the films in a marathon). Speaking of the opening of ROTS, I think Obi-Wan's attitude was the perfect touch of arrogance for a Jedi. He was very likable in ROTS - wise-cracking, yet confident in his ability to get the job done. If only the other Jedi has come across that way. I remember reading Harry's review on AICN, where he basically wanted the Council to get wiped out because they deserved it for being so arrogant and ignorant.

    I picked this up on holiday last year - it's the lightsaber duel from Return of the Jedi, with a cut-out space battle backdrop which slides in to the back:




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    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I don't think there was anything wrong with the elevator scene, except for the droids' new "funny" voices. Lucas specifically states on the commentary that the scene was left in to continue building up the relationship with Obi-Wan and Anakin, conveying how they had gotten over their problems in Episode II. I don't see how this is a lack of caring about story, given that the final showdown hinges on it being two friends forced to fight to the death. If anything, we needed to see more of their relationship for it to have a bigger emotional impact.
    I think part of the problem here is that I never got the impression that they had got over their problems in Episode II. They don't talk about it, they don't really discuss anything as far as I remember, they just chop stuff up and help each other out exactly as they had done in AotC when they did have problems. Pretty much any of their segments could have been cut without this changing. Am I just misremembering the scene? It's been a while.

    There are loads of scenes in films which originally ran long and had to be cut. Lucas's admission wasn't that surprising to me, and the hour could easily have been exaggerated. Fact is, it didn't go an hour and it was far from an explosive schmozz. It was focused on story throughout - Obi-Wan and Anakin now being powerful Jedi Knights who were friends, the introduction of Grevious, the rescue of the Chancellor and Palpatine's first attempt to seduce Anakin by encouraging him to kill Dooku. There was story everywhere in those 20 minutes, and some kick-ass action to go with it.
    By all accounts the hour wasn't exaggerated and however it turned out, the fact that Lucas allowed his writing to get so wildly away from him that he had this much material for the opening scene is pretty ridiculous. Of course lots of films have scenes that run long, it's only natural in production, but this is an enormous over-proportioning of action to story in a film that really needed to explain a lot more than it managed, and much of that need was created by the same problem being replicated in the previous film. There were some good story moments throughout the scene, and I don't think anyone was saying it should have been removed entirely, but to say it was "everywhere"is pretty generous. It was needlessly long and had planned to be longer, betraying Lucas' lack of focus.

    I also didn't think the action was all that kick-ass. Some goofy R2 moments including him randomly having powers he never had in the OT again, droids with silly voices for no apparent reason, a whole lot of shooting and chopping, and I can't remember much else. It's all just a colourful blur. I liked the short, sharp duel with Count Dooku, and that particular portion of the scene was actually very good thanks to McDiarmid, and I loved the space battle at the very beginning. If anything I would have loved to see more of that. This is Star Wars, after all, yet the PT only really had three short space battles throughout. ANH alone had that many.

    If there's one deleted scene I wanted to see kept in, it's Yoda landing on Dagobah. Does it even last 60 seconds? Absolutely no reason it couldn't have been put it, as it would have been a nice nod to Empire (especially if you were watching all the films in a marathon). Speaking of the opening of ROTS, I think Obi-Wan's attitude was the perfect touch of arrogance for a Jedi. He was very likable in ROTS - wise-cracking, yet confident in his ability to get the job done. If only the other Jedi has come across that way. I remember reading Harry's review on AICN, where he basically wanted the Council to get wiped out because they deserved it for being so arrogant and ignorant.
    I agree, on both the Yoda scene on the idea that the Jedi Council deserved it. There are fan theories that this was Anakin fulfilling the prophecy and balancing the Force because the Jedi had grown too powerful, aloof and insular and so were just as unbalanced as the dark-side steeped Sith, but the other explanation is that they were just written to be unsympathetic for no real reason, with the expectation they would get over as faces by virtue of being Jedi. I really am torn on which side to back.

    I picked this up on holiday last year - it's the lightsaber duel from Return of the Jedi, with a cut-out space battle backdrop which slides in to the back:
    Awesome set.

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    Cirque du Soleil Chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mike View Post
    I think part of the problem here is that I never got the impression that they had got over their problems in Episode II. They don't talk about it, they don't really discuss anything as far as I remember, they just chop stuff up and help each other out exactly as they had done in AotC when they did have problems. Pretty much any of their segments could have been cut without this changing. Am I just misremembering the scene? It's been a while.
    They've both loosened up since Episode 2 - neither are taking things very seriously and both are pretty confident despite the supposedly dire straits. If their dialogue had been cut out, then it really would have been droids being chopped and nothing else. One example is that Anakin actually obeys when Obi-Wan states that they'll take on Dooku together, unlike Episode II where Anakin foolishly rushes in and gets wiped out for a while. I'm not trying to put their interaction on a massive pedestal - despite the playfulness of their interaction, Hayden is still as wooden as ever. You can just tell by how they talk to each other that the relationship has developed; this "banter" (and again, let's not give it more credit than it deserves) was important in showing that these characters are friends, making their fight at the end all the more tragic.

    By all accounts the hour wasn't exaggerated and however it turned out, the fact that Lucas allowed his writing to get so wildly away from him that he had this much material for the opening scene is pretty ridiculous. Of course lots of films have scenes that run long, it's only natural in production, but this is an enormous over-proportioning of action to story in a film that really needed to explain a lot more than it managed, and much of that need was created by the same problem being replicated in the previous film. There were some good story moments throughout the scene, and I don't think anyone was saying it should have been removed entirely, but to say it was "everywhere"is pretty generous. It was needlessly long and had planned to be longer, betraying Lucas' lack of focus.
    I don't see how 20 minutes is needlessly long. The Jedi are trying to rescue Palpatine from Grevious, which means engaging the Droid fleet, getting onto the ship and possibly fighting both Grevious and Dooku. It could have been a climax to a film, let alone the beginning of one. This thread is really negative about the prequels, and for good reasons in some cases. But I'm very surprised to see criticism for the opening scene of ROTS, which many felt was just the kind of fun action that the prequels had been sorely lacking. I don't see the big disparity between action and story in this opening block. The story is that they have to get on to the ship and rescue Palpatine. This involves fighting their way through drodis and Dooku. I'm not sure what else you could be looking for in such a scene, and 20 minutes was just about perfect.

    I also didn't think the action was all that kick-ass. Some goofy R2 moments including him randomly having powers he never had in the OT again, droids with silly voices for no apparent reason, a whole lot of shooting and chopping, and I can't remember much else. It's all just a colourful blur. I liked the short, sharp duel with Count Dooku, and that particular portion of the scene was actually very good thanks to McDiarmid, and I loved the space battle at the very beginning. If anything I would have loved to see more of that. This is Star Wars, after all, yet the PT only really had three short space battles throughout. ANH alone had that many.
    Again, I'm not sure what you were expecting when you say "a whole lot of shooting and chopping". You get that in the Sail Barge scene in Return of the Jedi too. What else were two Jedi going to do in that situation? Though I can understand if you were all lightsaber-out since we had a big battle at the end of Episode II showing mostly the same thing. I enjoyed the big space battle, Obi-Wan ejecting out of his Starfighter to immediately get stuck in to some droids, the lightsaber duel with Dooku and the fight with Grevious's guards. And despite my praise for this scene, it has problems. Palpatine cheering on the Jedi ("Yeah!") is terribly cringeworthy, the effect for Obi-Wan being tossed across the room by Dooku is right up there with Anakin leaping across the room to block Dooku's attack in Episode II (in terms of how awful it looks) and as we've both said the droid voices are really annoying.

    Overall, though, I think the first 20 minutes are a highlight of Episode III - fun, innovative (the actors actually dueling with CGI characters, rather than just hacking them to bits) and it moves the story along in terms of developing Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship (Anakin doesn't leave Obi-Wan behind as Palpatine urges, so Palpatine still has to work on him for his eventual turn) and showing Anakin commiting unnecessary muder once again.

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    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    They've both loosened up since Episode 2 - neither are taking things very seriously and both are pretty confident despite the supposedly dire straits. If their dialogue had been cut out, then it really would have been droids being chopped and nothing else. One example is that Anakin actually obeys when Obi-Wan states that they'll take on Dooku together, unlike Episode II where Anakin foolishly rushes in and gets wiped out for a while. I'm not trying to put their interaction on a massive pedestal - despite the playfulness of their interaction, Hayden is still as wooden as ever. You can just tell by how they talk to each other that the relationship has developed; this "banter" (and again, let's not give it more credit than it deserves) was important in showing that these characters are friends, making their fight at the end all the more tragic.
    This is a fair point. I don't remember their dialogue too well, but yeah they did seem to be more relaxed and working in tandem. Anakin not repeating the mistake of Episode II was a nice touch. I didn't have a problem with the way the characters interact, though, it's just their interaction is swamped by a lot of action.

    I don't see how 20 minutes is needlessly long. The Jedi are trying to rescue Palpatine from Grevious, which means engaging the Droid fleet, getting onto the ship and possibly fighting both Grevious and Dooku. It could have been a climax to a film, let alone the beginning of one. This thread is really negative about the prequels, and for good reasons in some cases. But I'm very surprised to see criticism for the opening scene of ROTS, which many felt was just the kind of fun action that the prequels had been sorely lacking. I don't see the big disparity between action and story in this opening block. The story is that they have to get on to the ship and rescue Palpatine. This involves fighting their way through drodis and Dooku. I'm not sure what else you could be looking for in such a scene, and 20 minutes was just about perfect.
    I just think they could have easily trimmed it down further. It runs like a video game, they move from room to room carving their way through a sea of enemies, in order to achieve a goal that was only really added to give the film an opening scene to begin with. I don't mind the scene's existence, but again, with so much needing to be done in the film, it seemed entirely unnecessary to add another goal with Palpatine being kidnapped, a whole new villain to be dealt with and a ship to be landed safely with lots and lots of droids to kill in between.


    Again, I'm not sure what you were expecting when you say "a whole lot of shooting and chopping". You get that in the Sail Barge scene in Return of the Jedi too. What else were two Jedi going to do in that situation? Though I can understand if you were all lightsaber-out since we had a big battle at the end of Episode II showing mostly the same thing. I enjoyed the big space battle, Obi-Wan ejecting out of his Starfighter to immediately get stuck in to some droids, the lightsaber duel with Dooku and the fight with Grevious's guards. And despite my praise for this scene, it has problems. Palpatine cheering on the Jedi ("Yeah!") is terribly cringeworthy, the effect for Obi-Wan being tossed across the room by Dooku is right up there with Anakin leaping across the room to block Dooku's attack in Episode II (in terms of how awful it looks) and as we've both said the droid voices are really annoying.
    Yeah, I was pretty lightsabred out after Episode II, that's a good way to put it. Also, the Sail Barge fight lasted a few minutes, I'm sure less than ten, and involved the entire cast of characters fighting in a variety of ways. This thing went twenty, near wall-to-wall loaded with lots of flashing colours as two Jedi just killed everything. Also Jedi didn't have nearly as much work to do as Sith. The characters needed to recover Han, which was just about done, and then defeat Vader (the other goals like the Death Star and shield generator hadn't been introduced yet, and this film actually needed these extra goals to flesh it out). RotS had to start the Empire, start the Rebellion (which was cut), wreck two relationships, birth the twins, make Vader and explain a few things about the Force and disappearing (which they cut partially).

    Agreed on the Palpatine moment. That was really weird, totally out of character. I have no idea why that happened.

    Overall, though, I think the first 20 minutes are a highlight of Episode III - fun, innovative (the actors actually dueling with CGI characters, rather than just hacking them to bits) and it moves the story along in terms of developing Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship (Anakin doesn't leave Obi-Wan behind as Palpatine urges, so Palpatine still has to work on him for his eventual turn) and showing Anakin commiting unnecessary muder once again.
    I agree in large part, the scene served its purpose. I just think it could have done it in less time and while being less repetitive.
    Last edited by The_Mike; February 15th, 2010 at 1:29 PM.

  95. #295
    Cirque du Soleil Chris's Avatar
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    I wasn't that fussed on the cutting of the Rebellion scene. There wasn't much to rebel about at that point. Yes the Jedi had been slaughtered, but Palpatine made out that it was a plot against him. Everyone was applauding at the birth of the Galactic Empire, since no stormtroopers had put the squeeze on them just yet. Padme and a few others coud realize what was going on or what would happen further down the line, but the Empire hadn't done anything yet that would call for a committed and armed response. A New Hope occurring 20 years later, where a Rebellion has grown over time with the Empire trying to stamp out, fits nicely I think.

    But like the Yoda scene, I don't see why it was cut out since it really didn't last very long.

    I remember coming out of Episode II wondering how the hell they were going to set up everything in Episode III to fit with the original trilogy. You left out kill the entire Jedi order! I think they did a pretty good job overall. If Anakin had been older in Episode I, there could have been a more established relationship between him and Padme throughout the trilogy, so that their relationship breakdown meant more. I think it was less a case of it being too much for one film and more a case of having to work within the constraints of the previous two.

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    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I wasn't that fussed on the cutting of the Rebellion scene. There wasn't much to rebel about at that point. Yes the Jedi had been slaughtered, but Palpatine made out that it was a plot against him. Everyone was applauding at the birth of the Galactic Empire, since no stormtroopers had put the squeeze on them just yet. Padme and a few others coud realize what was going on or what would happen further down the line, but the Empire hadn't done anything yet that would call for a committed and armed response. A New Hope occurring 20 years later, where a Rebellion has grown over time with the Empire trying to stamp out, fits nicely I think.

    But like the Yoda scene, I don't see why it was cut out since it really didn't last very long.
    What I liked about the rebellion scenes was that they form a counterpoint to Anakin's story. It shows him and Padme growing distant and backing two different horses, and just as Anakin's story culminates in the creation of Vader and the Empire, Padme's legacy is the tools to defeat them - the children and the Alliance (both in a vulnerable, fledgling form).

    I think poetically it worked very well, and since Lucas likes to talk about the story as being like a musical, full of motifs and themes, I see no reason to not include the scenes. They weren't particularly long, maybe five minutes total, and included what I felt was the best acting Lucas ever got out of Christensen and Portman.

    The Yoda scene absolutely should have been there. I don't see how it could have hurt.

    I remember coming out of Episode II wondering how the hell they were going to set up everything in Episode III to fit with the original trilogy. You left out kill the entire Jedi order! I think they did a pretty good job overall. If Anakin had been older in Episode I, there could have been a more established relationship between him and Padme throughout the trilogy, so that their relationship breakdown meant more. I think it was less a case of it being too much for one film and more a case of having to work within the constraints of the previous two.
    I agree about it being too much for one film, which is why I would have preferred the action to be trimmed down (or just let the film run longer, it's not like anyone would have complained, except maybe Fox). I think Anakin being nine in Episode I was a crucial mistake. It cut him off from the rest of the characters, meaning we end the film with him just barely knowing Obi-Wan and Padme and not really being able to interact on their level, giving Episode II more work to do, and that film decided to separate Obi-Wan and Anakin for most of it and had didn't give us any indicators of love between Anakin and Padme other than him staring at her all the time, leaving the final film to try to make us care about relationships which should have been built from the start.

  97. #297
    Multiversal Champion OD50's Avatar
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    I always thought it would have been better if Anakin in TPM was about the same age and acted more like John Connor in T2. Kind of a young, reckless rebel but with the heart in the right place. The super nice, cuddly muppet Anakin Skywalker just doesn't do it for me.

    At least they could have kept the scene where he beats up Greedo to show that there is some darkness and anger in him.


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    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    That's one cut I might have agreed with Lucas on. Maybe. He wanted to portray Anakin as entirely innocent in the first movie, to heighten the tragedy of such a wholly good person being lost to the dark side, and to tell that story showing him fighting another child would get in the way. However, the idea of portraying a character as entirely good is problematic itself. No good character is entirely one way or the other, and that's something I think was greatly overlooked in the prequels. Anakin had flaws (to the extent he was a murderer by the middle of Episode II), Qui-Gon was willing to bend the rules a little, but for the three films I can't recall Obi-Wan or Padme being anything but entirely good, upright citizens. Padme was maybe a bit impulsive and naive in TPM, but that's about it. In the OT, Luke was whiny and impatient, Leia was stubborn and impatient, Han was a scoundrel out for money, Lando was a traitor, and Obi-Wan was a compulsive liar. The characters developed away from these traits as time went on, while in the PT it seemed like the characters were stuck on rails, attached entirely to the story and never really developing themselves.

  99. #299
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Continuing on the subject of Episode III cuts, I really think the elevator sequence was unnecessary. This isn't because it was bad or anything like that, but Lucas cut a more important sequence to accommodate it. I mentioned it earlier, but Lucas cut Greivous murdering Shaak Ti in front of Anakin, which is fairly important as it's Anakin watching a Jedi Master pwned, establishes the threat that Greivous is (something that I don't feel was ever fully established) and showed the same level of cooperation between Skywalker and Kenobi that was in the elevator scene. Because of cutting that scene, Lucas recorded a new scene (the introductions to Greivous on the bridge) to replace it. His reasoning on commentary for this was to cut back on time, but it comes to about the same time as what he cut, with elevator and bridge introductions.

    Anakin seeing a defenseless Master slain with her own lightsaber would surely have added to his willingness to do the same with a Sith Lord a couple minutes later.


    I really hope that when he twinkers with Episode III for it's blu-ray release (which he will), Lucas adds back in some of this stuff. The Emperor having Greivous hold Shaak Ti hostage until Anakin arrives so he can murder her in front of him, Yoda's landing, the seeds of the Rebellion planted while Sidious reads Anakin's relationship with Padme like a book and manipulates it... There's a lot of really good stuff that he cut that would make sense for his special editions of the prequels.


    Also, in terms of Lucas filming/writing too much, it happens when he's unsupervised. The podrace in Episode I was originally filmed at 25 minutes. He's a great idea guy, but he needs someone to help funnel his stuff into a movie. The studio and deadlines/budget did that for the original film and Kerschner did that by directing Empire and changing things behind Lucas's back. When he had free reign on the prequels, on his own dime, he understandably got carried away. I especially love the clip (on the Episode I dvd) of Steven Spielberg visiting the set and Lucas comparing the droids battling the Gungans to War & Peace...

  100. #300
    MASHY SPIKE PLATE Excel's Avatar
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    And despite my praise for this scene, it has problems. Palpatine cheering on the Jedi ("Yeah!") is terribly cringeworthy,
    I Love that part. McDiarmid does a great showing of the old man getting excited watching a fight. I love the "yeah" and think its perfectly acted as a man feigning his desire to see Jedi win, when we all know he really hates Jedi. I suppose maybe he wanted them to win as he wanted Anakin and wanted rid of Dooku, but either way, I think it works. It makes for a nice contrast to Jedi when he's watching the fight without having to conceal his true feelings.

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