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Thread: The Star Wars thread

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    I have no clue how I never caught the Obi Wan Jedi Knight thing.


    After watching all 7 parts, I had pretty much thought about everything he said at one point or another except for that. It didn't even dawn on me that the opening scroll tells us he's a Jedi Knight when the movie tells us he's not until the end.

    One thing I wish he had touched upon more was the treaty. For half the movie they were chasing Amidala so she could sign the treaty. Then when she leaves Coruscant, Sidious doesn't give a shit about the treaty and just wants them all dead. But then Gunray still wants her to sign the treaty. Its not Gunray being defiant of Sidious, its Lucas accidentally writing something contradictory...again.

    Then there's the whole, sending Maul to Naboo. He didn't fly via taxi. He took his ship. Where did he park it and when did the Jedi find it?

  2. #102
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    I guess it shows how much attention I was paying to the film when a fair few plot points brought up in those videos were things I hadn't considered. As with the rest of you, the Jedi Knight one certainly didn't occur to me, but I think that can be forgiven if we see it as just using short hand to identify Jedi-type folks (a Jedi Knight and his padawan learner is a bit wordy to put in an opening scroll). Though wasn't Qui-Gon a Master, so he's not a Jedi Knight technically either, right?

    At least two things never made sense to me even the first time I saw it. First the two Jedi Knights/Padawans/Masters getting on different ships; as covered in the videos, this is just a stupid idea. But also, why would a droid ship carrying droids through space have life support? Did they just hold their breath the whole way down to the planet?

    Then there is the treaty. We have no idea what the treaty actually is, why Sidious wants it signed, or if he actually does want it signed at all. The only way the plot makes sense is if Sidious could see into the future and knew that Amidala would defy the Trade Federation, reach Coruscant and move against Valorum. In which case... why the hell did he not stop the Trade Federation from almost killing her? If she got blown up running the blockade, he's totally screwed, because no one in the Senate gives a crap about Naboo and there'd be no one to make the no confidence motion. And why is he so adamant about wanting the treaty signed? It doesn't do him any good if it's signed, that utterly wrecks the plan!

    I still think the movie is better than Attack of the Clones. While the plot is clearly a mess, it is at least a largely inoffensive mess. Episode II wrecks the only decent character to survive Episode I, makes the lead character even more annoying than when he was a child and shoe-horns a romance that makes no sense into the story just because we need babies. And there's not the least thing romantic about it.

    I truly want someone to do the prequels again. Reboot the franchise, and while I normally dislike reboots, changing the tone to something much more contemporary and realistic, like Batman Begins, would be a lot more appealing.

  3. #103
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    I would hate to see a reboot, personally. Far too many things are rebooted or reimagined these days, which just shows how lazy the industry has become. I'm not saying it doesn't always work - hell, the new Battlestar Galactica series was an absolutely brilliant show - but I really wouldn't want to see Star Wars re-done. Lucas is mining the hell out of the "Clone Wars", whether it's Episode 2, several animated shows, an animated feature length movie, etc, etc - I think I'd rather eat my own arm than see a set of movies re-do all of that again.

    There's been so discussion on what was wrong with the prequels and how this could have been better than that and so on, that a new trilogy would just end up pissing everyone off again. If there's to be another Star Wars movie in the future, I want it to be set after Return of the Jedi. The problem with re-doing the prequels is that there's not really many places you can take it. It all has to lead back to Anakin Slywalker being Darth Vader, Luke and Leia as twins separated at birth, the Empire in control, etc. You could change a few events, remove or add characters and so on, but it's not like the franchise could be turned upside down without damaging the lead-in to the Original Trilogy.

    The Star Trek franchise encountered the same problem with "Enterprise". At first, they tried to reduce the technology and other typical themes - then they just got lazy and ended up introducing familiar species long before they made their first appearance on TOS or TNG. Ultimately, they couldn't do anything wacky with those species, because it would upset the established franchise. At least with the new Star Trek movie, it's set in an alternate reality to the one we're used to watch - so events can transpire differently, relationships and politics can develop in new ways, characters may die unexpectedly, etc. At least with an Episode 7 of Star Wars, they don't have to worry about keeping in line with later continuity - they can take things in a whole new direction after the supposed defeat of the Empire at Endor.

    I'd be just as content to see Star Wars put to rest. Fair enough if Lucas wants to bring out the movies in 3D somewhere along the line, but I wouldn't mind if there weren't any more TV shows or movies. I'm wary enough about the live action show. If it's set between Episodes 3 and 4, then there are a lot of restrictions. Will it really be interesting when you know how things must end (e.g. if Vader makes an appearance, he's never going to be in real jeopardy since he survives until Episode 6)? Will it appeal to those who expect to see lots of lightsaber action (unless it chronicles some Jedi who are still on the run from the Empire)? Will it have enough storyline and character development that people crave from TV shows these days, with on-going arcs and gripping cliffhangers? Lucas loves his 1930s serials, so maybe he'll be decent with the latter. But how well is Star Wars going to fare in today's TV climate, especially if it's just the same story being told again and again.

  4. #104
    She was a lot like you Atty's Avatar
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    Rather than a reboot, I'd like to see a whole new Star Wars series in a decade or so. Either go back to KOTOR times or forward, well past everything we've seen.

    Craft a new story and tell it. Preferably when Lucas is out of the picture.

  5. #105
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    Well they are making a live action star wars television show. It takes place between ROTS and ANH. That can either be made of win, or another disaster.

  6. #106
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    A big reason I'd want to see a reimagining of the prequels is to get away from the wasteland of merchandising that the Clone Wars stuff has become. While of course the destination must be the same, there's about seven hours in which to take a radically different journey there, so I don't think it would have to feel all the same. Turning the franchise upside down wouldn't be what I would hope for (why? That's what the original prequels did, by turning the franchise from adored to reviled), more I'd just rather see the crap fixed and the story handled in a much more mature, tight manner.

    Enterprise is a good example of what not to do, but I think they pretty much made the same mistakes in the prequels, which started out with really fancy, modern looking ships and computers and it wasn't until Episode II Lucas realised the OT craft and technology looked far less advanced in the OT and started going backwards. These kinds of oversights are the sort of thing I would hope a do-over would repair.

    As for going in a new direction after RotJ, the story of Star Wars is the story of Anakin Skywalker. It always has been, so I'd much rather see his story completed properly, using a good actor and a character written as someone who doesn't hate sand and call his master "grumpy". There's plenty of room in the universe for new movies telling new stories, though, and I'd love to see anything set there that doesn't involve the Clone Wars yet again.

    The TV show (or shows, they're planning to branch into four within two years), from what I've heard of it, sounds absolutely awful. So maybe just putting the whole thing to bed would be a good idea, at least until Lucas releases his stranglehold or remembers why he got into filmmaking in the first place.

  7. #107
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    I don't see a problem with someone redoing the prequels. Absolute worse case senario - they're an insult to the original prequels and that's not really a concern. I fully endorse a second try on this project. But I would like someone like Kevin Smith to be in charge of it and for George Lucas to be locked in a basement, far away from the project.

  8. #108
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    They should make them about the Clone Wars. I remember being young and hearing that another trilogy about the Clone Wars was coming miles away in the future in 1999. Then it came, and you had the jedi being exterminated which lasted about 70 seconds of each jedi being killed by a few grunts.

  9. #109
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    Does no one want Shadows of the Empire done? I have no interest seeing the classics re-cast or anything, but it's a shame that Dash Rendar never hit the screen.

  10. #110
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    Shadows of the Empire, while a great video game, was one of many books before the OT that tried to dismantle Vader and the Emperor by having them overshadowed by another more crafty villain. So I'm not sure how well that would translate.

  11. #111
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    KOTOR could have made a fantastic arc for a new series. Spoilered for reasons of MASSIVE game spoilers.




    That stuff from the first game could really make a fantastic 4, 5 and 6 for a new series of stories. There's a lot in the Star Wars mythos that can be explored and, for a new series, I'd rather see something totally unique to what we've had in the past.

    I'd love a proper prequel reboot, but can't see it happening while Lucas is alive.

  12. #112
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Rogerer View Post
    They should make them about the Clone Wars. I remember being young and hearing that another trilogy about the Clone Wars was coming miles away in the future in 1999. Then it came, and you had the jedi being exterminated which lasted about 70 seconds of each jedi being killed by a few grunts.
    That wasn't the Clone Wars, the end of Episode II and all of Episode III up to Order 66 (plus the films and cartoon series in between) were the Clone Wars. I don't feel like seeing any more of that, especially since it turned out they weren't anything like we imagined from Obi-Wan's line in ANH. If they made a proper war film set during the Clone Wars, though, I'd be interested in seeing it, but it would have to offer a lot more than just big CGI battles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Second City Saint View Post
    Does no one want Shadows of the Empire done? I have no interest seeing the classics re-cast or anything, but it's a shame that Dash Rendar never hit the screen.
    I guess they'd have to recast Luke, Leia and Lando but I think they could get away with the rest. It was a pretty good story, but I'm not sure if it'd be worth constructing a movie around. I don't remember it that well, though.

    KotoR would probably be a pretty good film. Not sure if I can see it being stretched across three, but it's a baseline for a new story, no doubt. Just thinking about the opening makes me feel like playing it again. It was so very Star Wars, and so very unlike the opening to TPM, with two Jedi having a cup of tea.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by viva_la_raza View Post
    Also, both Family Guy Star Wars specils have been fantastic. A personal highlight:

    "Hold your fire. There are no lifeforms aboard."
    "Hold your fire? What are we, saving by the laser now?"
    "You don't do the budget Terry, I do!"
    Best scene in the new Family Guy special:


  14. #114
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    So I guess they're going to parody all six star wars films then?

  15. #115
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    Meg will be Jar Jar. I guarantee it.

  16. #116
    MASHY SPIKE PLATE Excel's Avatar
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    Definately doing Jedi later this season. Dont know about the prequels

  17. #117
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    They should just do a legit version of the prequels...since the theatrical ones were already like a parody any way.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Second City Saint View Post
    They should just do a legit version of the prequels...since the theatrical ones were already like a parody any way.
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoaofHh7bp4&feature=related[/ame]

  19. #119
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    The prequels are on right now...

    I've nothing better to do and I'm a glutton for punishment so I think I will watch (with the B's game sandwiched in between).

  20. #120
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    portugal
    http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/vid...ic/15087-swchr

    the nostalgia critic reviews The Star Wars Christmas Special.

  21. #121
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    What the hell are those red rotating walls of static that they have to wait for in the Darth Maul light saber battle?

  22. #122
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    Force fields of plot convenience, that's what they are.



    While I love that duel and the amazing music during it, the setting really was ridiculous. All those generators(?) and such in the palace? It always has seemed odd to me and felt like they were just trying to copy the tractor beam generator on the Death Star. At least to me it felt that way.

  23. #123
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    The whining has started...

  24. #124
    Confectionery Behemoth Fro's Avatar
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    It started around 10 years ago

  25. #125
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    I meant Anakin's whining in Episode II had commenced (watching the movie currently).

  26. #126
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    Oh haha yea me too.

    Damn Padme totally shits on Anakin there ("he's just a padwan") what the hell does he see in her

  27. #127
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    The falling in love scenes with Anakin & Padme are extremely out of place in a Star Wars film and come across as entirely contrived/unrealistic.


    Thumbs down to lil Boba Fett, too

  28. #128
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    All I can say is "Thank God that Lucas didn't direct Empire." The stuff that Kershner changed, in terms of dialogue, is the same kind of piss that Panda Bear and Anakin spit out in Episode II. What I don't understand is how Lucas could think, watching it repeatedly in production, that crap like "I hate the sand" or anything else said was compelling dialogue for a romance. I really can't see how he wouldn't have reshot or even cut a lot of that stuff after seeing how crap it was.


    Episode II is exceedingly frustrating for me. This isn't because it's the worst movie but because it's the biggest missed opportunity. The plot outline is not bad at all, it's just horribly executed. The structure of Obi Wan tracking down Jango Fett and leading him to Kamino and Dooku is actually a very good one that makes for a lot of action sequences. The shame is that the Anakin side of the tale is complete shit. Him and Padme goofing off in the safety of Naboo is not interesting. Neither is Anakin being a massive and creepy pussy.

    Whereas Episode I's problems would merit a total re-write to fix, II's problems really wouldn't. In the hands of a more capable director, one willing to change George's dialogue and tweak some bits of the script, that film would have been massively different. Just axing the return to Naboo and having Anakin take her directly to Mommy would have done wonders. There's really nothing to the Naboo bit and it's just wasted time with crappy dialogue.



    One thing that still and always will infuriate me is when Padme gets up in the sand and tells the Stormtroopers that they "have to get to that hanger." How does she know about the hanger? How does she know they're there?

  29. #129
    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    Just axing the return to Naboo and having Anakin take her directly to Mommy would have done wonders. There's really nothing to the Naboo bit and it's just wasted time with crappy dialogue.

    One thing that still and always will infuriate me is when Padme gets up in the sand and tells the Stormtroopers that they "have to get to that hanger." How does she know about the hanger? How does she know they're there?
    Yes on both counts. Anakin took Padme to Naboo ostensibly to get her out of the way of recurring assassination attempts, so his genius plan is to take her home. You know, where everybody knows your name. She's not exactly going to be any safer there, even when she eventually goes to her supposedly secret lake retreat which she also spent much time at as a child and details such in the dialogue, because if the assassins are able to get on board her ship and plant a bomb, they're going to be able to find both her real home and her retreat. Going to some desert rock in the middle of nowhere would be a far smarter move. And why did the bomb not go off until the ship landed? Surely it would be a better idea to explode in space where no one will survive?

    I did always wonder where Padme got the clairvoyance to know where Obi-Wan, Anakin and Dooku had headed after falling out of a gunship and rolling around in the sand. Maybe hitting her head gave her the Force. Still, I thought Jedi could lift objects with their brain? Why couldn't Anakin or Obi-Wan have just slowed her descent instead of Ani bitching and Obi-Wan seeming entirely unconcerned that a good friend of ten years just fell out of a speeding craft?

    Personally, I would rather have seen Episode II rewritten entirely. Obi-Wan's scenes were probably the best part of the film, true, but he spent far too much time on this sleuthing quest and away from Anakin, undermining the relationship we were supposed to see between them that would finally break our hearts when they fight in Episode III. With The Phantom Menace having Obi-Wan seem vaguely annoyed by Anakin and nothing more, Episode II had to make up for lost time and just ended up wasting even more.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mike View Post
    Personally, I would rather have seen Episode II rewritten entirely.
    I'd rather all the prequels be totally rewritten.

    It always seemed so dickish of the Jedi to blow off Anakin's fears of his mother. They should have sent him and Panda Bear to Tatooine to a) check on his mother and b) to keep her off the grid, where no one would find her.

    The prequels were just wasted time. There was no real story that Lucas wanted to tell that we didn't already know. They explained a lot of things that should never have been explained, while leaving split ends and holes behind that never should have been there in the first place. Sifo Dyas? So little that was actually productive was done in I and II that they had to shove a lot into Episode IIIómore than the film should have had.

  31. #131
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    The Sifo-Dyas thing was awful. First off, in the movie, its horribly explained that the real Dyas was dead before the order was placed so someone used his name.

    Why would someone use the name of a dead Jedi? You could choose any name in the galaxy and you choose the name of a guy who the Jedi know died before the order was placed? My best theory on this was that someone was going to try and frame the Jedi for the war. It wouldn't look good to the galaxy if a Jedi ordered the clone army 10 years before it was needed.

    But then the entire subplot is dropped. I'm not even sure if the Jedi ever find out who specifically ordered the army and the details surrounding it let alone the Galactic Senate.

    Another point about it that was written badly in my opinion was the name and details known about the character. Its a Jedi killed over 10 years ago who Obi-Wan apparently knew. The casual audience members probably thought of Qui-Gon Jinn but couldn't remember his name. Why didn't George make it Qui-Gon? Dooku (his former master) using the name of his dead apprentice to order a clone army would have put serious doubts in Obi-Wan. Especially during the convo Dooku and Obi-Wan have later where Dooku says Qui-Gon might have joined him.

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    Qui Gon's name being used to order the clone army would have been wonderful. Not only would it make sense (and make Dooku more of a bastard) but, done properly, he could have had us doubting Qui Gon leading into Episode III, going back to I and looking for hints, et al.



    Empire's on right now and the Empire is attacking Hoth. This battle and the one in the Death Star trench highlights what's wrong with the prequel battles. In the original trilogy, the battles were somewhat simple and much less cluttered. The audience could easily see what is going on and everything's straight forward. The prequels had a lot more fancy shit flying around, but it wasn't something that the audience could follow in a way that got them into the story.

  33. #133
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    Why don't more holidays feature Star Wars marathons?

  34. #134
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    I could run my own dvd marathon, but it would only feature four of the films.

  35. #135
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    I must be granted the right to laugh my ass off to "UNLIMITED POWER" and Anakin's insanely comical delivery right after. I'd probably fast forward the Obi/Ani duel as the Palpy/Yoda fight is much more interesting.

    That's all I watch anymore from Episode III. Oh, and the landing at the beginning.

  37. #137
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    this is going a little bit off topic. but i must say this anyway.



    my work coridinator. whos in his 50's



    has never seen any of the star wars films

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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    I must be granted the right to laugh my ass off to "UNLIMITED POWER" and Anakin's insanely comical delivery right after. I'd probably fast forward the Obi/Ani duel as the Palpy/Yoda fight is much more interesting.

    That's all I watch anymore from Episode III. Oh, and the landing at the beginning.
    NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!


    ..is always worth a watch.

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    My personal fav


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    That's another one I never really got: why does Anakin hate Obi-Wan? It's like there was a scene missing somewhere. Anakin goes crazy, beats his wife and, after getting his ass kicked, declares his hate for Kenobi. It was just "me evil now, me hate you" without the right development. I know it's a lot to ask for actual character development from the prequels, but Anakin's fall to evil is the story they were to tell and what Lucas showed didn't explain his hate for his friend. Using Sidious to protect his wife was a cool idea, but it doesn't explain why he'd suddenly hate his BFF or why he'd stay loyal to The Emperor after she died.


    I actually like A LOT of Episode III. There are some bits missing, like that piece of character development, but it's the only film of the prequels that actually feels like Star Wars to me. Would have liked a touch less action and more character work. The final duel is also far too choreographed as I thought it would be more chaotic with Anakin using the dark side, like from the end of Jedi when Luke taps into the dark side and just wails on Vader. Would have liked something like that rather than floating over lava on platforms. Anakin should have been trying to kill him, not do flips for 12 minutes.

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    I thought that the tension between them was simmering all through the movie.

    Anakin thought Obi Wan was holding him back, and while the respect he had for him held his jealousy and bitterness in check, once he gave into his emotions, he couldn't control them. He saw Obi Wan as the obstacle keeping him from being the most powerful Jedi in the universe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post



    That's another one I never really got: why does Anakin hate Obi-Wan? It's like there was a scene missing somewhere. Anakin goes crazy, beats his wife and, after getting his ass kicked, declares his hate for Kenobi. It was just "me evil now, me hate you" without the right development. I know it's a lot to ask for actual character development from the prequels, but Anakin's fall to evil is the story they were to tell and what Lucas showed didn't explain his hate for his friend. Using Sidious to protect his wife was a cool idea, but it doesn't explain why he'd suddenly hate his BFF or why he'd stay loyal to The Emperor after she died.


    I actually like A LOT of Episode III. There are some bits missing, like that piece of character development, but it's the only film of the prequels that actually feels like Star Wars to me. Would have liked a touch less action and more character work. The final duel is also far too choreographed as I thought it would be more chaotic with Anakin using the dark side, like from the end of Jedi when Luke taps into the dark side and just wails on Vader. Would have liked something like that rather than floating over lava on platforms. Anakin should have been trying to kill him, not do flips for 12 minutes.
    Are the seeds of hatred not planted in Episode II? He's pretty pissed at Obi Wan following the death of his mother. I know they seemed to patch things up on Genosis and were buddy buddy in the beginning of Episode III but it was obvious there was something there. I'd agree though that it probably should've been revisited in Episode III as the aforementioned rough patch seemed to have ran its course.

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    Anakin was a spoiled teenager in Episode II and they were all buddy-buddy in the first half of III. Particularly after the beginning of III, where Anakin taps into the dark side after Dooku throws Obi Wan around, to defend his friend. It goes from "Goodbye old friend" to "I H8Z U!"

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    MASHY SPIKE PLATE Excel's Avatar
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    Letsnot forget that Anakin believes Obi-Wan had turned Padme against him, and was already feeling some serious resentment of the Jedi Ordder for the way they handle things. Infact, remember when Anakin said "Obi-Wans been here hasn't he" to Padme, before he turned, it was almost like he was suspecting them of having an affair. there was definately an undertone of resentment of kenobi and mistrust.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    The final duel is also far too choreographed as I thought it would be more chaotic with Anakin using the dark side, like from the end of Jedi when Luke taps into the dark side and just wails on Vader. Would have liked something like that rather than floating over lava on platforms. Anakin should have been trying to kill him, not do flips for 12 minutes.
    Absolutely. All the fighting in the prequels seems far, far too polished and choreographed. The only bit that doesn't feel like outright ballet is where Maul smacks Qui-Gon in the nose and kills him. The duels are flashy and impressive, but there's nothing worth watching after the first time or two, because they are devoid of emotion. I feel like tuning out for the next ten minutes or however long it lasts, and the battles never feel particularly desperate or claustrophobic, just colourful, chaotic messes that you can barely see, and I never feel anything for a single character outside the main party. Where are the Porkins and Wedges of the PT?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excel View Post
    Letsnot forget that Anakin believes Obi-Wan had turned Padme against him, and was already feeling some serious resentment of the Jedi Ordder for the way they handle things. Infact, remember when Anakin said "Obi-Wans been here hasn't he" to Padme, before he turned, it was almost like he was suspecting them of having an affair. there was definately an undertone of resentment of kenobi and mistrust.
    In the novelisation, he explicitly was suspicious of them having an affair, a suggestion which Palpatine helps nudge along. Anakin can sense they are colluding about something, not realising Obi-Wan is helping Padme and others form the Rebellion, and of course all the Rebellion scenes were cut from the movie, because we needed more time for R2's wacky antics. It is said the rough cut of the opening battle was over 45 minutes long before Lucas had to trim it down. Who the hell writes a 45 minute introductory battle to a two hour movie when you spent the last two movies answering nothing and creating more questions? And I agree that Anakin seemed to jump to suddenly hating Obi-Wan and blaming him for everything with little provocation. The Jedi in general had been utter dicks to him for twelve years but what did Obi-Wan do? Anakin accuses him of turning Padme against him but it just seems like a convenient catalyst, outside of one other suspicious line and one line about Obi-Wan holding Anakin back (whilst Padme holds him in her arms to comfort him for having butchered an entire village) way back in Episode II, I see nothing but affection on screen between the characters. Anakin decides to go rushing off to rescue Kenobi and almost get himself and Padme killed (and steals Threepio in the process) about one minute after burying his mother.

    Qui-Gon as Sifo Dyas (stupid, stupid name that caused no end of confusion and suspicion with regards to Sidious then turned out to be utterly irrelevant) would have been a great stroke to rescue that sub plot, and would have made Dooku's offer seem something beyond a token "sith try to seduce people" sort of moment and give it actual meaning.
    Last edited by The_Mike; December 25th, 2009 at 1:46 PM.

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    Totally agree, Mike. Qui Gon as Syfo Dyas would have been a brilliant way to have Dooku test Obi Wan's faith in his "interrogation" scene in Episode II. It also could have been a cool thing for the Emperor to throw Anakin's way, even if it ended up to be totally false.

    I've never understood why they cut out Anakin accusing Obi Wan of boning Padme. Sidious feeding his confusion could have been brilliant way to show Anakin manipulated into a web of lies to further his anger. Moreso.



    In terms of duels being overly fancy hurting it, the key example for me is Anakin/Obi Wan. There's this one point where they're in hyper mode and stop connecting and hust spinning the sabers around in fast forward missing each other. Every single time that makes me wonder why one doesn't slash the other. I mean, it makes sense that Obi Wan wouldn't want to cut Anakin down but, surely, the newly minted Vader would be trying for the kill. Luke snapping at the end of Jedi and just trying to kill Vader spoiled me, I guess.

    The other little thing that my roommate (who wasn't a SW fan) and I used to both wonder about is why Obi Wan and Yoda didn't go after them again. They both basically won their duels, while not killing the Sith, and it seemed odd that they'd run off to hide. I figured, when we started to hear that Yoda would fight The Emperor, that he was going to get his little green ass kicked to explain why he'd be so weary of The Emperor and not make another attempt in the 20 years between the trilogies. I know, it's nitpicking, but it's always felt odd to me that they'd let the Empire's power expand if they were strong enough to beat them right away. Either that or a scene of Vader, in the mechanical body, unleashing his power on both and sending them into retreat.

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    Maybe it had something to do with them feeling the weight of creating the strength of the empire in the first place with a lack of communication and trust.

    I always wondered the same thing though. Clearly at least Obi Wan won his duel.

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    Noli Timere Messorem The_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brethart4ever View Post
    Clearly at least Obi Wan won his duel.
    He did, but he won because Anakin made one exceptionally stupid mistake and was so rash and irrational for the rest of the fight. With Padme gone and nothing but victory to fight for, Vader may have been much more difficult to defeat, though at that point I imagine Obi-Wan himself would not hold back any more either.

    I suppose they never made another attempt because if they died, who would train Luke and Leia? One alone would not be strong enough to take on Vader and the Emperor, and if they're both killed, the galaxy is screwed. At least with Luke and Leia they have two Jedi who share Anakin's blood and are likely powerful enough to deal with him. Though you would think one of them would make some effort to stop Leia from going insanely reckless things like joining the rebellion, but no one seemed to be keeping an eye on her at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mike View Post
    He did, but he won because Anakin made one exceptionally stupid mistake and was so rash and irrational for the rest of the fight. With Padme gone and nothing but victory to fight for, Vader may have been much more difficult to defeat, though at that point I imagine Obi-Wan himself would not hold back any more either.

    I suppose they never made another attempt because if they died, who would train Luke and Leia? One alone would not be strong enough to take on Vader and the Emperor, and if they're both killed, the galaxy is screwed. At least with Luke and Leia they have two Jedi who share Anakin's blood and are likely powerful enough to deal with him. Though you would think one of them would make some effort to stop Leia from going insanely reckless things like joining the rebellion, but no one seemed to be keeping an eye on her at all.
    I was surprised at how evenly matched Obi-Wan and Anakin were. Are we are to assume that Anakin became much more powerful as Darth Vader? Its hard to judge since they still seemed to be evenly matched when dueling as their older selves in A New Hope. That being said, who is the most powerful Jedi? Me and my friends have debated this before and I'm wondering if it has been said definitively.

    I never really understood why Yoda went into complete seclusion and could not help at all. If as you say they never attacked again to ensure the training of Luke and Leia I wonder why Yoda didn't at least keep an eye out or remain in close proximity.

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    In the books it is said Yoda leaves for Dagobah because it is so densely packed with life forms and the Force that no one could detect him, and I suppose he was powerful enough that the Emperor would be keeping an eye out for him, so to speak. While there he trained to disappear into the Force at death, guided by Qui-Gon, who somehow learned to become one with the Force without disappearing, but Obi-Wan managed to learn too and he still kept an eye on one of the twins.

    As for who was more powerful, I was also surprised how evenly matched the pair appeared to be. Anakin was obviously not in his right mind, which would have affected his performance, but the guy is supposed to be off the charts powerful and born of the Force itself, he should have hammered Obi-Wan or any Jedi save perhaps Yoda.

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    Is there ever a reason given for why Yoda is such a powerful mofo?

    Also, is there any truth to the rumblings I've heard over the years about more star wars movies (episode 7 etc)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Mike View Post
    That wasn't the Clone Wars, the end of Episode II and all of Episode III up to Order 66 (plus the films and cartoon series in between) were the Clone Wars. I don't feel like seeing any more of that, especially since it turned out they weren't anything like we imagined from Obi-Wan's line in ANH. If they made a proper war film set during the Clone Wars, though, I'd be interested in seeing it, but it would have to offer a lot more than just big CGI battles.[/I].
    I was being facetious, but you get me. I haven't watched any of the films since I saw them at the cinema, all I remember about the end of Episode II was a massive battle in that arena following a stupid bit in a droid factory.

    I was basically comparing my young imagining of the prequels, with epic, exciting battles between jedi - perhaps a war between jedi and sith lords, but the whole thing amounted to Order 66. I'm sure the joke has been made before, maybe it was a homage to Plan 9 from Outer Space, in being awful. Possibly the biggest dropped ball in the history of cinema.

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    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaqxIXs_mn4[/ame]

    The end of the battle in Episode 3 reminded me of this, from 1:20 onward.

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    Something else that I think they really missed the ball on was using OT tech in the prequels. Rather than showing the evolution towards X-Wings at the start of Episode III, it would have been a bigger mark out moment for the audience to see Anakin and Obi Wan in X-Wings. They wouldn't have gotten to market different toys then but it would have been one of those little touches of nostalgia that brings the audience into the movie. In fact, I'd loved to have seen the Republic using future rebel tech throughout the prequels. That way it makes it that the rebel scum is using massively outdated tech in the OT, but we see it as modern tech in the prequels.

    Just look at the reaction the blockaide runner always gets in Episode III...

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    I always wondered why the technology in the prequels seems on par (if not superior) to that in the originals. If the reign of the galactic empire was presented as a space age dark age rather than outter space fascism it would be acceptable. Look, I know that filming limitations probably hindered Lucas' ability to present the Star Wars universe the way he wanted to in the '70s and the advancements made by the time the prequels were under way seemed to good to pass up; but I think you have a responsibility to logically show that the there was progression in technology between episodes III & IV given the gap of time.

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    MASHY SPIKE PLATE Excel's Avatar
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    What makes you think the technology in the sequels isnt better than the prequels?

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    It's a perception thing. R2-D2 has rockets in the prequels but in the OT, where rockets would have come in handy, he doesn't seem to have them. Jango Fett appears to have more clever gadgets than Boba Fett. The Droidekas have force fields and are only destroyed by aircraft with large guns. There are many places in the OT where they would have come in handy to the Empire.

    But on the other hand the prequels didn't have a working Death Star, who knows what a thermal detonator can do, and I don't remember hearing about or seeing any cloaking devices in the PT.

    Though I bet Jabba the Hutt wishes he had explosive devices implanted in his sex slaves instead of having them linked to chains around his neck.

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    Explosive devices? That's just silly...




    Oh. Right.

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    I bet Darth Vader wishes his cybernetic implants were as nimble and dextrous as Grievous's. Imagine Luke and Vader with spinny hands, and Vader with jumpy legs...

    And I bet the empire wishes that their probe droids were tiny and fast like Maul's...

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    Who needs probe droids when you have this guy?



    STEALTHY!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by brethart4ever View Post
    Is there ever a reason given for why Yoda is such a powerful mofo?
    Age I suppose, he did say that he was 900 years old

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    Snuffalupicus!

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    Does anyone know if/when the original trilogy will be put on Bluray?

    Sorry, if this has been covered in this thread already.

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    It hasn't been announced for blu-ray yet. I'm on all the waiting/notification lists for when it's announced, but nothing yet.

    Lucas took forever to release them on DVD (and altered a bunch of stuff again.) I figure the same will be true here. I'm hoping he does what the later DVD releases did and include the latest revisions alongside the original cuts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneManGang View Post
    It's a perception thing. R2-D2 has rockets in the prequels but in the OT, where rockets would have come in handy, he doesn't seem to have them. Jango Fett appears to have more clever gadgets than Boba Fett. The Droidekas have force fields and are only destroyed by aircraft with large guns. There are many places in the OT where they would have come in handy to the Empire.

    But on the other hand the prequels didn't have a working Death Star, who knows what a thermal detonator can do, and I don't remember hearing about or seeing any cloaking devices in the PT.

    Though I bet Jabba the Hutt wishes he had explosive devices implanted in his sex slaves instead of having them linked to chains around his neck.
    It was the product of prequels desiging, engineering, and parts though.

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    It also had one serious flaw. The second one, in OT designing, engineering and parts corrected that.

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    I'd venture to say the second death star's shield generator susceptibility was a greater flaw, especially when you consider that it took a force sensitive being to destroy the original. But I suppose that's up to debate.

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    Well clearly the Emperor of the PT was more advanced than the Emperor of the OT in that the Emperor of the PT would never have allowed the alliance to know the location of the shield generator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneManGang View Post
    Well clearly the Emperor of the PT was more advanced than the Emperor of the OT in that the Emperor of the PT would never have allowed the alliance to know the location of the shield generator.
    Except it was a trap. Palpetine wanted the alliance to come, figuring that they couldn't resist attacking and destroying the Death Star, especially with him on it.

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    Palpatine's that guy who insists everything is going according to plan, when nothing is.

  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by virus21 View Post
    Except it was a trap. Palpetine wanted the alliance to come, figuring that they couldn't resist attacking and destroying the Death Star, especially with him on it.

    You missed the humorous nature of my last post.

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    IT'S A TRAP!

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    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veANUQuwa3Y&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veANUQuwa3Y&feature=related[/ame]

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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    Palpatine's that guy who insists everything is going according to plan, when nothing is.
    I don't know, things were going pretty well until he was thrown off a ledge by the guy he literally just stabbed in the back five minutes ago and then turned away from, and his army was beaten by a bunch of teddy bears with down's syndrome and sticks...

    It worked out pretty well for Darth Vader, too. He choked his wife to death, slaughtered a bunch of children, ordered the big laser genocide of earmuffhead's planet and all he had to do to redeem himself was to throw an old man (who just tried to get someone to kill him) off a space cliff...

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    Beautiful video.


    I've mentioned this before, but the more I think about it, The Emperor vs. Yoda should have been the first time we saw either duel with a lightsaber. When the Jedi go to arrest him, as soon as he lights up the red blade I'd cut to Anakin on his way to rescue Palpers. We (the audience) then enter the office with Anakin and see wasted Jedi corpses and find Windu threatening to kill the old man.

    Yoda and Sidious rocking sabers could and should have been a really special type of thing, but seeing both duel prior hurt it for me. We knew both could do flippies and crazy shit, but it would have been off the charts to be seeing that for the first time there. Yoda chopping off the Stormtrooper's head is the perfect debut for him with a saber but, in terms of dueling, I'd rather it just have been Yoda vs. The Emperor.


    Don't know why that video made me think of that, but it did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Casey View Post
    I don't know, things were going pretty well until he was thrown off a ledge by the guy he literally just stabbed in the back five minutes ago and then turned away from, and his army was beaten by a bunch of teddy bears with down's syndrome and sticks...

    It worked out pretty well for Darth Vader, too. He choked his wife to death, slaughtered a bunch of children, ordered the big laser genocide of earmuffhead's planet and all he had to do to redeem himself was to throw an old man (who just tried to get someone to kill him) off a space cliff...


    I'm more talking about "we have a new enemy, Luke Skywalker" followed by Vader talking him into letting him turn him and then declaring that everything is going according to plan even though it's not.

    Or when Luke's on Endor. Vader knows but The Emperor doesn't and can't sense him. He then says that everything's going as he's foreseen when it's clearly not. I got the same vibe from Episode I with the treaty he wanted signed. If it had been signed, the Chancellor would never have been removed and he'd not have gained power.

    He was brilliant in Episode III, but that's a pattern that has stuck out to me. A random Sidious question for discussion here would be:
    Did The Emperor know that Vader would be crippled by Obi Wan when he sent him to Mustafar? Discuss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    I'm more talking about "we have a new enemy, Luke Skywalker" followed by Vader talking him into letting him turn him and then declaring that everything is going according to plan even though it's not.
    "According to plan" just means the things that are happening are working fine with the current plan, which is about trapping and crushing the rebel alliance. It doesn't mean every little detail is meticulously planned out; their plan can succeed a lot of different ways...

    "Everything is going according to plan", is the same as "Nothing is fucking up the plan"...
    Last edited by Bill Casey; December 30th, 2009 at 5:16 AM.

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    And "everything" right before that means?

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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    Beautiful video.


    I've mentioned this before, but the more I think about it, The Emperor vs. Yoda should have been the first time we saw either duel with a lightsaber. When the Jedi go to arrest him, as soon as he lights up the red blade I'd cut to Anakin on his way to rescue Palpers. We (the audience) then enter the office with Anakin and see wasted Jedi corpses and find Windu threatening to kill the old man.

    Yoda and Sidious rocking sabers could and should have been a really special type of thing, but seeing both duel prior hurt it for me. We knew both could do flippies and crazy shit, but it would have been off the charts to be seeing that for the first time there. Yoda chopping off the Stormtrooper's head is the perfect debut for him with a saber but, in terms of dueling, I'd rather it just have been Yoda vs. The Emperor.


    Don't know why that video made me think of that, but it did.

    I don't know man. Yoda saving Obi-Wan and Anakin and taking on Dooku in Attack of the Clones was a pretty special moment. The audience in my theater was going crazy.

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    Yeah, but how crazy would it have been if the first time you saw him do shit like that was against The Emperor and not some guy we just met? Exactly.


    It also would have been a better fit for Episode II to have Obi-Wan save Anakin. It would have highlighted his recklessness in a nicer way and been a cool touch (Anakin goes there to save Obi Wan and Kenobi ends up saving him.)

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    Is it just me or was there a severe lack of alien pilots in star wars? The only one that comes to mind is Plo Koon and the podracers...if that counts.

    And I don't mean co-pilots or commanders, just straight up pilots.

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    I'm just going to take a moment to rant about the Sarlaac.

    In the original trilogy, it was probably one of my favorite characters/aliens. A gaping, toothy maw in the middle of the desert that just chilled and had folks dumped into it (occasionally using tendrils to drag folks down into it, as well). It was just so simple and badass and frightening.

    Then in the special edition, he revamps it and we've got this Muppet beak coming up out of it like Audrey from Little Shop of Horrors, and now it's like the dang chomper plants in Super Mario, plus a whole slew of added tendrils...it's completely different and just feels so much more cliche and less ominous and fearsome.

    But, Lucas says, it "just looks much more realistic and more threatening ... it helps the scene considerably." And I couldn't disagree more. I think it does exactly the opposite and makes the creature much more goofy and average.

    And apparently subsequent depictions of the Sarlaac in the Star Wars universe from then on are the revised version.

    Lame.

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    The unknown is always more ominous (not to mention fun) so I would certainly agree with you mth.

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    Audrey II

    But yeah, he ruined the Sarlaac for me too. There was something about just this giant mouth in the desert that was downright creepy. Adding that beak gave the sarlaac personallity, and it was far better without it.

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    That's a great point and something I wasn't able to get into words, Excel. The Muppet beak, etc. gave it personality, something it was much more frightening without.

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    I dislike most of the changes Lucas has made over the years. The Jabba scene in ANH, Greedo shooting first, putting goofy robots on Tattooine, Gungans in ROTJ, changing the music at the end of ROTJ, replacing old Anakin at the end of ROTJ, extended CG Jabba music sequences, Replacing Stormtroppers and Boba Fett's voices, Sarlacc and so forth.

    Don't even get me started on reshooting the dialogue between Vader and The Emperor in Empire...


    Tweaking the effects is one thing. Changing entire bits and dialogue is another.

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    I don't see the logic behind putting young Anakin along side the other two jedi at the end of ROTJ, especially since their ghosts reflect their last living appearance. Having Anakin as a 50(?) year old made sense because that's what he was when he died.

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    I loved the old Sarlaac too. The beak did absolutely nothing for me. Though it does puzzle me that the creature even made it into ROTJ. If you think about, its another monster in a pit just after the Rancor scene. I mean it makes sense that Jabba and crew would take a field trip to execute some scumbags, on paper though it would have seemed somewhat repetative I think and am surprised they didn't change the beast.

    Also, Jabba's palace stuff kinda drags a bit. First 3PO and R2 introduce themselves to Jabba, then Bousch/Leia with Chewbacca, then Luke comes to introduce himself...

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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    I dislike most of the changes Lucas has made over the years. The Jabba scene in ANH, Greedo shooting first, putting goofy robots on Tattooine, Gungans in ROTJ, changing the music at the end of ROTJ, replacing old Anakin at the end of ROTJ, extended CG Jabba music sequences, Replacing Stormtroppers and Boba Fett's voices, Sarlacc and so forth.


    Don't even get me started on reshooting the dialogue between Vader and The Emperor in Empire...



    Tweaking the effects is one thing. Changing entire bits and dialogue is another.

    what was it about the dialogue that bothered you? That was one scene that I thought did need to be redone, but the dialogue change didnt bother me either.

    Also, I was quite fine with them redoing Boba Fetts voice. Made sense to do it. I also liked them using CG to open up the claustrophobic sets of cloud city.

    There are actually some good examples of where the special edition changes were for the better.

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    CG in Cloud City I was fine with.


    The dialogue between Vader and Palpers changes the scene. It also seems odd to have Vader not know Anakin's offspring is out there when he earlier says "That's it. The Rebels are there and I'm sure Skywalker is with them."

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    Well given the fact that Vader almost betrays the Emperor at the end of Empire, I can see where he'd let the Emperor bring up Skywalker before he does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneManGang View Post
    Well given the fact that Vader almost betrays the Emperor at the end of Empire, I can see where he'd let the Emperor bring up Skywalker before he does.
    True, but the original dialogue is much better. They were right to replace monkey eyes but, like most recent Lucas dialogue, the new lines just don't play right for me.

    Next, Lucas will add in the sappy Han-Leia snuggle woggle talk that Kerschner cut out for going totally against character.

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    Oh yeah, I remember, that does bother me with Vader saying he knows it's Skywalker, then pretending that its impossible that it could be Skywalker when the Emperor comes asking questions.

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    For the most part that scene doesn't bother me though there are two things I'd tweak. The first being the pace in which the emperor speaks. He sounds like he's talking to a 1st grader and making sure he talks slow enough for the kid to understand. The second is covering up his eyes with the hood. While Lucas may want people to watch the films 1 to 6, it still works better with the OT first and then the PT. So when you get a good look at the deformed emperor in jedi, I'd want it to be the first time seeing his hideous face.

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    There is a...great...disturbance...in the force.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    And "everything" right before that means?

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    As in "Everything is going as I have foreseen." Not "this is going vaguely in line with the plan"

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    I got atty to watch Ewoks: The Battle For Endor tonight. Classic. Some of those monsters were cursing. I clearly heard "fuck" from the guy playing poker.

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    That movie has more paedos in it than the asylum. Wilford Brimley was clearly trying to do horrible things to the kid for the whole movie and I'm surprised he didn't try to lure him into his gingerbread house (assuming he had one.) I can only imagine what that sick freak did to the child after he locked her on his spaceship and flew off never to be heard from again.

    I'm also pretty sure Wicket is actually much older than he lets on and a ravenous paedo bear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atnumbers View Post
    As in "Everything is going as I have foreseen." Not "this is going vaguely in line with the plan"
    Now you're talking about a completely different line, and a completely different thing...

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