If I had one complaint on this episode it would be Jamie saying he didnt care about any of the innocent people in kings landing when the beginning of his arc and whole king slayer thing was based on just that.
If I had one complaint on this episode it would be Jamie saying he didnt care about any of the innocent people in kings landing when the beginning of his arc and whole king slayer thing was based on just that.
Without doubt, the writing has taken a major step back these last few seasons without any source material to go on. It's one thing to gloss over travel time and not feel required to have episodes go by when a characters goes from one part of the country to another, but they are rushing character development to the point where these big moments don't feel as justified as they should. Dany burning the city was cool but the justification was lacking. I see the reasoning they laid out - when Jon rejected her kissing again, on top of having betrayed her by telling Sansa about his lineage (leading to more betrayals against her), she determined she will not be loved here in this foreign continent so fear is the only way to assume and maintain power. Varys (a representer of the commonfolk) turning against her also hammered home this point. But they simply rush these developments to the point where they don't land with the viewer. Letting these things breathe over the course of a season and laying more building blocks than just the bare bones is so important.
Another example, Jaime leaving Brienne and Brienne crying simply didn't land for me because they literally hooked up, had a mini relationship (if you want to call it that) and then he left her all in the same episode. I'm still looking at it like a drunken one night stand and they're treating it like he's leaving his new girlfriend and it's oh so sad.
I don't think the show has fallen to shit so badly like Lost did when they simply didn't have any way to satisfyingly tie up all of the wild plot pieces they inserted, but the nuance in the writing has been sacrificed and we will for sure look at these last 2-3 seasons as not continuing the high quality of the previous ones.
I'm still enjoying the shit out of it, and it is shot stunningly well.
The source material has been awful for ten years. The fact we actually got here and it's good almost great is a miracle. Cleagene Bowl was awesome.
Brienne lost it more for the fact that Jamie was leaving to die. She knew shed never see him again and she was powerless to stop him.Originally Posted by Fro
Also remember how much Dany has lost in the last few weeks. One of her babies, two of her most loyal friends and everyone else she has trusted has betrayed her in one form or another. She has fought 2 battles she didnt want too and lost near everything she has worked for over the past 7 or 8 years because of it. She has given a lot to help only to not be given back. It's also happened very very quickly.
the dany heel turn does feel very forced. it's been pushed hard this season but beforehand she was always clearly portrayed as a genuinely good leader who would be a great queen everyone would love. i definitely don't buy that the show writers always had this outcome in mind. it feels like a relatively new direction they decided to go in and the justification and build is lacking and not executed well enough to make it feel like a real organic development rather than a sudden u-turn in the show's theme.
If they had a full season (or two) to flesh out what is going on this season, it could be earned. I'm ok with the character directions, it is just happening at a break neck pace.
Jon rejecting Dany was so important. We got Tyrion and Varys talking about the idea of them marrying but we never got Jon and Dany talking about it, did we? Jon never said he's no longer into her because they're related, I don't think, but it's what we're led to believe. Have a damn conversation about it. If they wed, the entire realm could have been at peace for 30 years and the interaction we get is .... *kiss* *no kiss - push away* "well I guess it has to be fear then". Jon doesn't want the throne so they could marry and he could let her be Queen and he could be the Hand Husband or whatever. It could work! (Maybe.) But when the fate of the world was in their hands, they didn't even seem to talk about it.
Also when it comes to muted characters, Cersei barely got any lines this season which is a shame. I get that she's isolated without many characters around her, but couldn't we have gotten a new small council for her to get scenes with? Remember the small council? Those were good times. Cersei, Euron, Qyburn and the new guy Harry Strickland could have been used for a couple council discussions on what was going on in there end, instead of just Cersei looking out her balcony and barely saying a word. Harry Strickland was nothing more than an extra.
Lastly one suggestion on making the Dany heel turn more effective would be to state that across the realm word is spreading of the victory against the night king, and people are signing the praises of both the Starks and the dragon queen who defeated the white walkers except in King's Landing where Cersei has convinced everyone that the whole thing was a ruse. They gave this a brief mention at one point this season (about how Cersei would deny it), but they could have given it further depth (it could have fit into my small council suggestion above). I think if you had Dany land her dragon after taking out the scorpions, and you had a group of commonfolk booing her and saying "we don't want you here" and calling her a monster, something to that effect, it could have added a little nuance to her decision instead of being so black and white.
all of this
Danny did murder Sam's family while they were captives.
Dany
Hound fight was legit.
the clegane thing was cool i guess but there's another thing that doesn't make sense. suddenly the hound's entire reason for being was getting revenge on his brother? i mean he always hated his brother but that was never his sole reason for living to the point he was going to throw his life away because revenge was all he ever cared about. like ... they were always around each other before the hound left king's landing, if he were than insane for revenge he could've fought or killed the guy any time. wasn't his whole arc with arya, joining the brotherhood or whatever, fighting on the side of good, supposed to be redemptive? how does a redemptive character arc make him decide that suddenly the only thing he cared about was killing his brother so much that he was going to do it knowing he was going to die to because nothing else matters?
it was just fan service and the writers didn't give a shit about justifying it or doing justice to the entire show and character before the one fan service scene they wanted to put in.
The Hound vs Mountain was hinted at the moment they appear in the book. The idea Cleagene Bowl is a fan theory is bullshit. We were always going to get. Martin is just time fucking slow to deliver it. Honestly, that scene was fantastic and made sense.
that they hate each other is established and fitting in a fight scene somewhere makes sense. that all of a sudden the hound has such an intense desire for revenge that it totally defines his life to the point where he's willingly going to his death just for the chance to fight him (when he could have fought him or tried to kill him any time when they were living in close proximity for years) even after his whole redemptive journey doesn't make sense and is just a randomly chosen framing of his character to justify a scene that they couldn't give enough of a shit to work into the show organically, just throwing away the entire arc of the character throughout the series for one thing they felt they had to deliver or people would be disappointed.
yea I don't see an issue with it. you get to a certain age, you fulfill your destiny of helping defeat the army of the dead, you've been through all this shit.... what else is there to do but check off that one bucket list item. it was fan service but not in a bad way.
"hey know what would be a cool scene, doing having the hound willingly walk into his death to do the clegane fight while the castle is collapsing and the hound sacrificing himself just to kill his zombie brother."
"hm, doesn't that kind of make irrelevant his entire history on the show with him realizing that he isn't inherently worthless and condemned to a life of evil, that the world might not be inescapably grim and horrific, and that he can actually care for others and others can care for him, a journey he has been slowly going through since the first season trying to overcome himself and escape his past?"
"uh, who cares?"
eh idk, I think you're overthinking it. his redemptive arc isn't as sacred as you're making it out to be. he cared about arya but still not enough to really treat her like a friend/family member. even when they reunited it was a cold but respectful hello. and yea he had a brief good spell with that church group but then he got sucked out of that rather quickly when they got slaughtered.
so while I think he did learn to be a good-ish person and stop doing evil things on behalf of his lords/kings, once he helped defeat the night king it was like his purpose was fulfilled and he could go do the one thing that would bring him actual joy.
dany had a weird thing about power and people not accepting her back in essos, which is also where the concerns about her state of mind and the potential abuse of her dragon's powers popped up. it's not a new wrinkle for her character, they just accelerated the turn without nuance or time to breathe.
I am honestly amazed at the annoyance to some of the stuff from last night's episode.
Jaime, Dany and Sandor all acted in ways completely fitting with their characters, including the growth (or degradation) the characters have experienced through the seasons.
People thinking Dany's turn was forced shock me the most. This is the woman who smiled as her brother suffered a death of nightmares, who crucified countless people, who has executed many on anger and whim, who is obsessed with a throne which isn't ever hers to claim, whose instinct is to destroy.
yeah, a cold hello cause these dudes are the ones writing this shit now. and that's the issue. character arcs were set up by the books and carried through on the shows one way, and the consistency of those arcs went haywire once they ran out of source material.
i think most people's issue with it is the tent scene with tyrion where the douchey smugness of season 1 jamie rears it's head again. i think people would be more receptive to it if he said he was coming back to try and stop her for her own good, to save her, to whisk her away before it was too late. instead he's talking about 'maybe cersei can win' and not caring about innocent lives. it's a reversion of the parts of him that were redeemed, that we know to be true through his king slaying, his oath keeping and his commitment to fight for the living. him not being able to totally give up on cersei is believable, bur only when tempered with his growth instead of in spite of it.
The only character I think should have acted differently is Arya. They've been building her up to Kill Cersei for 8 seasons. She just travelled 2 days, got in the gates, only to turn around 10 feet from her target? Why? Because The Hound told her to? I get that she's going to go after Danny, but it's a total 180 for her character in 2 seconds.
Also, there is no viewer satisfaction in that death for Cersei. Maybe they want the angle that nobody can confirm she is dead and didn't escape.
While I agree the writing after they ran out of source material has gone downhill, I don't see any issue with the Hound in particular. I mean what do you expect the guy to do? He's a bitter old grump, and Arya isn't exactly an emotional person either. Hound giving her the "don't be like me, don't give your life for vengeance" speech was a nice moment for him showing his growth and their friendship IMO.
If you agree with T.E. that him going to kill his brother after the battle of Winterfell was poor writing, what would you have him do instead? Go be a farmer?
And I do see what T.E. is saying, about how in seasons 7 and 8 they made it seem like his lifelong goal was to kill his brother even though he seemingly never acted on it until now. Fair point, but I'd say it's nitpicky. He grows up always intimated by his cruel older brother who happens to be the biggest guy on the planet, they both become highly successful fighters/soldiers under the Lannister umbrella (the Lannisers being the biggest power in the 7 kingdoms).... perhaps he didn't kill his brother because A) he never thought of himself as strong enough to do so, B) they were both esteemed fighters on the same team and killing him would mean he'd be executed, and C) it took all this crazy shit to happen like nearly dying and then fighting death itself before he finally reached the mindset of not giving a fuck and just wanting to go kill him.
I can understand that Ayra frustration a little bit more, but that may be because, I agree, she will now probably be the person to, at least attempt to, kill Dany.
But Cersei's death, I absolutely loved it. She hasn't been in it much this season, but her character had the most natural and subtle revelations and changes. She was alone, hurt, doing things to protect her child that she found disgusting and reminded her of the worst aspects of her life so far. She did the right thing in calling the surrender. Cersei in this episode was the counter to Dany, proving herself not to be a monster, as Dany was showing herself to be exactly that.
he can still go fight and kill the mountain, but setting it up within the character arc would be nice. having him talk to arya like his whole life has just been consumed with thoughts of revenge is shit. him going 'well, i survived one fight with the undead, maybe it's time i pay a visit to my cunt of a brother' would've worked better. the idea of him having this life-long fantasy of killing his brother isnt even bad, it's just that half of the shows existence, the half that paid way more attention to the details, didnt portray or set that up.
plus the whole reason arya left is because the hound told her that he's the way he is because his life has only been about revenge, which isn't true at all and isn't backed up in the least by any previous narrative, but that was the explanation for the closing of one of the biggest plot points in the series (arya's mission to kill cersi).
this is far from the dumbest thing in the episode or god forbid the season, but it's one of them, and there are tons of things like this. essentially everything about the series is like this now. whats with tyrion ratting on varys? isn't tyrion supposed to be super smart and an almost perfect judge, to the point where the fact that his emotions allowed him to misjudge his sister was a major plot point just this season? how's he getting dany so wrong? he was never slavishly loyal, he was with her because he thought she would be the best ruler. everything in this show is screaming now that everyone realizes this isn't true and jon would be the better ruler AND has the better claim! and what's with jon's insistent loyalty? how badly did he not want to bow to dany in the first place last season? he was king in the north and was going to march on king's landing himself. the only motivation they can give for his unwillingness to acknowledge his claim is to have him say "she's my queen" over and over again.
Well I fucking loved that. Some people will moan about anything.
It was better than episode 4. And better than basically any episode with the sand snakes. There were many enjoyable things about the episode. But for it to be the second last episode of the show I'm disappointed. The majority comes with them just rushing through characters development.
Watch it in slow motion then.
I thought that it was spectacular. But not satisfying.
I don’t understand the complaints about Dany turning, it’s been established that it’s pretty much in her bloody DNA to just snap and turn into a dribbling lunatic, she’s fluctuated between pampered and abused her whole life building up massive psychological damage and has just lost her two closest friends.
If that’s not a telegraphed turn then I don’t know what else they could have done, from her first appearance she’s played the saviour card while acting in an often highly questionable manner, the execution of Varys (her only remaining voice of reason as she ignores Jon and Tyrion cannot see wrong in her, till now) just guaranteed it was coming soon.
Still a chance of an Onion King though, that would be a victory for the common man!
I think Cersei is still alive and she will show up in the last few minutes posing as a commoner.
How I’ve felt all season
well, last night was an incredibly accurate depiction of what a hillary clinton presidency would have been
Yeah...no.
you can't even spell correctly.
So, Varys was trying to posion Danny at the beginning of the episode and that little girl may still be able to pull it off if no one has figured it out yet.
I can’t comprehend some people are shitting on this. Saw Ian Dunt on Twitter say the following, which sums up my thoughts on it:
“Thrones is at its best when it takes away what you want and when it says something radical about the world. That's what it did here. The behaviour of characters (no spoilers) we saw tonight was seeded well in advance.”
I don't think she is going for Dany. Could be wrong but I thought that was her turning her back on a life of violence. Like is this episode (perhaps show) not all about how revenge is maybe one of the worst possible traits of humanity?
Last edited by Marlon Dingle; May 14th, 2019 at 5:18 AM.
Yep.
The first episode this season was one of the weakest I can recall. But that's it. The writing might be a little worse now, the pacing more frantic, but nothing the characters are doing are at odds with what has been meticulously laid out for 8 seasons now.
Also... this is fucking war. It’s been built up to a crescendo of expected mass violence and major split second decisions having to be made due to the Night King’s arrival and Cersei wanting to take advantage of it moments afterwards for seasons now. What do people want, Jon and Sam having a chat for an hour while petting Ghost in front of a fire ffs.
I thought it was a great anti-war message. Falls more in line with GRRM's message in the books.
People scrambling trying to find justification for what Dany has done. There is no justification. Like why have we been drone striking children in foreign countries for decades? Be upset about that, not Dany turning heel.
Everything in the dragon massacre reminded of the photos after Hiroshima. It's the first time I thought it was a good idea for getting rid of the dragons, because no one should have this power. Even crazier was dragons were around and killed prior to this. So, is Westroes really a post apocalyptic world.
It's set up for the kill. Danny has green eyes. She was clearly at odds with her decision to burn the innocent. So clearly not going to happen.
As long as she isn't already dead I don't care.
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And yes I know she has different color eyes in the book
the green eyes thing is played out. prophecies are dumb, and this doesn't even seem like a good one. I mean she's already killed like 40 people since Melisandre said that (the bulk coming when she took out the whole Frey family). one of them probably had green eyes.
I doubt Arya will kill Dany.
I'm going with Tyrion convinces Jon to marry Danny in order to keep her line. Maybe even to save the rest of the Starks after a failed assassination attempt.
Pretty good episode, though I feel some of the deaths of people feel rushed.
I suspect multiple assassination attempts - someone will be trying to poison Dany and she will suspect it, and make Tyrion drink for her. Tyrion will somehow know, but will drink the poison with her anyway, they will all be poisoned at the wedding, nobody wins when they all die.
Enjoyed this ep. Wasn't a let down like the Battle of Winterfell.
You should write the sequel!
Can I just say that after reading peoples reaction after every episode (on YouTube, reddit, and other various forums, not specifically this one), the biggest complaint I'm seeing is "Plot armor". "PLOT ARMOR". "Plot armorrrrrrr". "All this plot armor man." Like, that complaint is so nit picky to be such a massive complaint on the season as a whole. I get it, the season is somewhat disappointing. I'll admit that even know I'm still enjoying the season, myself. But Jesus people, go read any book ever made and watch any movie ever made and you will see plot armor. This is not a valid complaint.
/rant
With Tyrion and Jon likely turning against her due to the burning of King's Landing, Dany really should send a raven to Daario to come be her lover/advisor. She needs someone on her side. I doubt it will happen though. Also it's hard to imagine he's kept slaver's bay in check. Nothing against him it just seems like it would be ultra difficult to keep that region from falling back into slavery without a huge army and dragons to keep everyone in line.
In terms of what I'm rooting to happen, I'm still #TeamDany. I don't think she's mad like her father despite what she did. She did it to assert her authority and get the noble houses to fall in line. They fear her now, but she can build up their admiration in time with a just and prosperous reign.
Where do your allegiances lie, Ser Goldberg?
Its very clear to me that history will repeat itself. A Lannister kills a Targ and a Barratheon sits on the iron throne. Once Gendry takes his rightful place on the iron throne, I will win the GOT Deadpool and everyone lives happily ever after.
I would also happily see a new night king needed to stop Danny and her dragon. Perhaps Jon Snow is the man for the job.
She's not mad. She just killed thousands of innocent children following a surrender. #respect
Mad is putting it nicely. If she's not 'mad' she's pure evil.
She's not mad. She just killed thousands of innocent children following a surrender. #respectDo you consider Tywin Lannister mad for his sacking of King's Landing and all the horrible shit that happened in that event, not just against the Targaryens but against the common people of the city? I don't. Ruthless yes, but he was entirely not mad.
Last edited by Fro; May 16th, 2019 at 11:16 AM.
No I think he was an evil bastard.
Agreed, and also a tremendously effective ruler, overseeing 20 years of peace and prosperity before Aerys went mad.
I think we've found this year's mental case.
You're avoiding the question. Is Tywin Lannister who brutally sacked King's Landing also mad? I am honestly curious. Granted this is something that didn't appear on screen and I'm not sure how familiar you are with it.
Tywin Lannister is seen as an inherently evil cunt. The sack of Kings Landing is constantly seen as unnecessary and overly barbaric. Even Dany's mentor, Ser Jorah, tells her of the violence against women and children that he saw with his own eyes, rapes of women, butchery of children etc. Do you think she would have done it with Ser Jorah still alive?
Whether you call Daenerys evil or mad is not really the issue here. She’s gone against all that she purported to be representing in the case of being a leader for the innocent people wanting a true, fair and loving leader, all because she can’t hack it.
Woman’s either evil or mad. Who gives a shit about the term.
Last edited by The Rosk; May 16th, 2019 at 11:56 AM.
Tywin didn't take joy in the ruthless things he did to maintain his family's power. Whether he was wiping out entire bloodlines in his early years, sacking the capital or killing the young wolf and his wife/mother, what he did was purposeful. It was serving the greater good of his house. And in between these offenses he did rule the kingdoms in a highly effective and peaceful way for decades. As will my Queen. Most great lords have some ruthlessness in them. It is necessary to maintain power.
The Mad King was mad because he took pleasure in murder, was extremely paranoid and killed regardless of the validity of the perceived threats against him.
Dany is not mad, only ruthless. Like Tywin.
There is a difference. And if you don't want a ruthless king or queen, that's fine, but your loving and merciful king will probably have a short, turbulent reign.
I am pretty sure you are trying to troll a GOT thread here, which is odd.
I am not trolling, but I am trying to churn up discussion about the events within the show rather than the super annoying discussion taking place throughout the internet about the writing of the show. This is more fun.
And I am sincerely rooting for Dany to win the Game of Thrones this Sunday. I stan the Queen.
I also have lots of respect for Tywin, the greatest villain and smartest person in the entire show.
Why did Tywin allow the murder of babies and children and rape of innocent women when it wasn't actually necessary to kill them? "For the greater good" - or moreover, "to protect himself". Dany literally didn't need to kill thousands. She's become hugely fearful for her place and position on the Iron Throne, and has seen Jon Snow gain love and adoration from his followers whilst being uncovered as the actual heir to the throne - that is the only reason she decided to burn thousands of women and children in order to get people to fear her, because she's more flawed as a leader of people than she expected she would be.
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If Tywin was the smartest person on the show, he'd have had a weapon with him in the bog.
Dany has been drifting towards madness from the beginning, her methods have always been on the extreme side but she’s had them tempered by strong support, now she’s lost her two war leaders, her voice of reason, her best friend and confidant and now she’s lost faith in her hand.
Her one remaining anchor was Jon and now she feels he’s aligned against her she’s literally lost all reason to even try.
From the beginning her arc was pretty clear, she’s a zealot and that never ends well especially in this kind of story, she’s there to provide a counter to the noble but unassuming Jon. Honestly at this stage anyone who’s moaning about her turn hasn’t read or watched anything more complex than Janet and John, at this point it’s just a question of if she actually starts chewing the scenery before one of her erstwhile allies does what’s best for everyone and bumps her off.
Actually raising Tywin is interesting as they make a good pair, Danes speech about Love or Fear is straight out of his playbook, all his worst atrocities were to instil complete fear in the populace, there was no way the general public would consider rising against him as there was no doubt he’d have simply decimated them in interesting ways, he wasn’t mad just a completely cold calculating sociopath, who’s only goal was to maintain his position, he knew exactly what he was doing and why.
Dany however genuinely believes what she’s doing is right in relation to her end goal, which is why I’d say she’s mad, specifically totally delusional and drifting towards a complete breakdown
RIP is dead on. We like Danny, because she is a young woman trying to achieve a goal that looked impossible especially after Khal Drago died. Now, she has achieved the goal, but it has made her alone and paranoid. To some degree she is correct in being paranoid if Varys was trying to posion her. Yet, she has crossed a line that will lead to her going further into Maddness or an unhappy marriage with Jon or her death.
I blame the bells. They didn't put enough respect on her name when they rang.
Pretty certain this means you're gay.
Card's in the post.
Surely there must be more people who haven't liked Dany for a while now?
Not only is she now (obviously) not a morally good character, I don't really think at any point that she has successfully held that mantle. Her existence isn't just dotted by needless and cruel deaths for those who oppose her, but she's driven by this Jesus complex, distorting her value of anybody not her.
Dany was obviously in the show presented as by far genuinely best ruler until this season, basically because Sansa looked at her meanly. It’s been poorly done.
Sacking cities was a common motivation for pre-modern armies so Tywin sacking Kings landing at least isn’t pure evil. Dany burning down the whole city for no reason is very different
When was Dany shown as the clear best ruler?
Her cities regularly descended into chaos thanks to poor decisions and mismanagement, she loves killing people in horrific ways, her instinct is to destroy no matter the situation, she's properly sadistic, to stop that sadism leaving half of Essos and Dragon BBQ she had to have constant reminders that there are alternative routes than burning people alive.
In that time there's also been people such as Jon Snow, Sansa Stark (your characterisation of Sansa sounds brilliantly Dany fangirl) and Cersei Lannister, who I would suggest have all shown leadership qualities in areas Dany doesn't.
JP is correct in that they've been showing us two different styles of leadership. Two different paths.
One is the path of "yeah let's kick some ass. Kick in the gates and free those slaves. Now I'm gonna body surf on you! Look at my bitchin' dragons and shit!"
The other is the path of " Oh we have to do that? It's the only way? And all my friends are gonna die too? Well fuck it if it's the only way then let's get this bitch over with."
Path A - "Everyone can have a happy perfect life. There are no compromises. If I'm in charge I can make everything exactly as it should be."
Path B - "Happiness is objective. We're all fucked. If we try really hard and suffer a bunch then we might live long enough to fuck and make some more miserable people. But can somebody else be in charge? This shit gives me a headache."
Fire is all kick ass and get what you want instantly. Ice is slow and without as much cool pizzazz and flare. It's the tough road but it's more realistic and practical.
I mean my brother and I have been debating for years who was going to end up on the throne. Jon or Dany. Both being groomed for leadership. Jon is the better leader and better person. Always has been.
Last edited by Rancid_Planet; May 16th, 2019 at 5:20 PM.
it's not like she was shown to be perfect but to say her flaws in leadership foreshadowed her going insane and burning the city is a major overstatement. her flaws in leadership were more plot points to show her growing as a leader and becoming even better. she always inspired intense loyalty in her subordinates, he did have a cruel streak but it was in the service of what she was as justice (and toward causes that were presented as obviously just -- crucifying the masters was a cruel punishment but clearly was presented as her being overzealous in her attempt to quickly eliminate slavery as an institution), in varys and tyrion becoming attached to her court it was made clear she was head and shoulders the best choice as a ruler and although she could be difficult to work with and stubborn, her ultimate cause was always just.
i was never a particular fan of her character, but this was the clear narrative theme for her thoughout the entire show. sure, you can still have her turn insane and evil coming off of all that, but you'd want a little more than sansa not liking her when she goes up north for a couple days. the show writers just wanted this to be the conclusion of the show and wanted to run this angle, so they went ahead and did it without providing any real narrative justification.
dany going crazy and having to revolt against her, actually, is probably a much better story to end the show than her just winning and being queen, but it's been done lazily and poorly.
Jon wouldn't even tell a lie to save the world and this would surely be his undoing were he made king. He's a bonehead stark like his funcle Ned. He got mutiny'd and killed by his own men as Lord Commander. He would be the Reluctant King, assuming a position he doesn't want, living in a city he doesn't care to live in, and would continue to upset his allies with his stringent code of honor. He would rule honorably, no doubt about that, but Daenerys has the power and ambition to change the world like Aegon did, over the course of generations. It takes fire and blood to unite the 7 kingdoms and halt the constant war and rebellions. Jon wouldn't last long enough to change shit. I expect most of the kingdoms would declare independence under his rule because he has no intent of fighting to maintain power.
Aegon was surely seen as a monster in his conquest but the unification of the 7 kingdoms had a positive effect on the realm. Dany and Drogon are in a unique position to restore that unity.
The only ruler I would be okay with instead of Daenerys would be Sansa. Brienne would be a tremendous head of the Queensguard. Tyrion could be her Hand (or her husband). That would be one hell of a trio to lead us into prosperity.
Dany burning the city wasn't just foreshadowed. Her reigning down fire on civilians has been talked about before. It's been major discussion points. And its not as if Dany introduced the concept of slavery being bad. In Westeros, where her family draws their values from, its been outlawed for a while. I think Dany has gotten too much credit for morality previously. Possibly because she's an awesome character, and Emilia Clarke owns our souls.
Jon has been shown to be moral, but an ineffective leader. If this wasn't GOT, I would be convinced Jon ends up the throne. Since GOT has shown what happens to the rigidly moral family in leadership settings, I'm not convinced Jon doesn't end up following the trend that has already been established. Jon would have show more than he has about blending the Targaryen and Stark strengths before I would feel comfortable that we are def heading there with him. Jon has already had his surprise betrayal death, like Ned and Robb, but has he grown as a result?
I might be grasping a bit, but I think there's still a path where someone else ends up the throne, representing a moral, but somewhat politically savvy mindset.
If only the show still had a lord Barristan, always thinking to himself to be watchful, that the switch could be flipped inside Dany at any momeny. That would've reinforced the potential character change more.
And really what kind of a deal is this? I mean we're now seeing how the power of the Targs really works. Why they were able to come over to westeros a few centuries ago and just take over the whole fucking country. Those dragons are fucking legit. But what good does it do when every third king goes fucking batshit?
Jon has the same fucked up blood in him too. Sure he clearly favors the Stark side of the family. But we know somwhere in his gloomy DNA there's a recessive "burn them all" gene just waiting to be passed down.
Really the only way the kingdom has a shot at a long term happy future is to get rid of all the Targs for good.
Dany is going down. GENDRY FOREVER.
there are really no really viable choices for kings left in the show anymore because the show decided to totally forget that its' based on medieval politics of large, independent, militarized aristocratic clans with their own local strongholds (because the show writers are dumb). northerners and wildlings like jon but he's a nobody. no one but his immediate entourage his going to respect him or view him as legitimate. the only way dany made sense is if she had truly overwhelming force, which she did when she had three dragons and many more dothraki than she does now. but then dany's forces have been shown to be, at the exact same time, very vulnerable but still invincible (they were shown to be invincible in the king's landing sack, even though the entire previous episode was predicated on how weak her forces are supposed to be now).
come to think of it it's not worth trying to actually make sense of anything going on anymore. just make gendry king.
gendry isn't a stubborn idiot like jon. he's a strong fighter himself. a man of the people. and has the most legitimate claim; more than jon, the targaeryans don't have a viable, respected claim to the throne in westeros anymore.
#KINGGENDRY
Can Gendry even read and write? lol
King Seaworth I
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I can dream.
The more I consider it, the more I begin to think that they will all die, there will be no unification of the 7 kingdoms, because they can't handle it.
Dany and her dragon will wipe out Sansa first, and when Jon and Arya try to stop her, they get toasted too. Tyrion will die trying to save Sansa.
We will find out Dany got pregnant with Jon's baby, and she will die in childbirth, to the baby that Sam and Gilly will raise to become the Iron King, but all of the kingdoms will have become independent.
Bittersweet.
as an artisan (did he own his own shop when davos came to get him?) in the largest city in westeros, probably
Nah he was just an apprentice. But you'd figure he could read and do math with that job.
Nope @Rancid_Planet
In the beginning he was an apprentice but when he came back into the show in season 7 it looked like he had his own shop
For Whom the Bell Tolls > Hells Bells
The best part of the video Rancid posted was the part where Grey Worm went Sicko Mode on the Army. The mix-up with Metallica worked well there, and almost made the scene more intense. Thanks for sharing.
Will be interesting to see what they do with Grey Worm, as they seem to be building the guy up from the midcard to mainevent status.
Jon Snow v. Grey Worm has to be a fight coming in the Finale.
God this episode was fucking brilliant.
Dany has always been a bit of a twat. She is fine if you agree with her, if you don't she gets all arsey.
I always thought they would all die but I also thought the Night King would kill everyone and the final scene would be a world covered in ice.
I know nothing.
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