***Official*** English Football Discussion Thread

[RuneEdge]

I'm not talking about refusing to pick him, he's the manager and that's his choice - as Emperor Pochettino has said in the past, all a first team contract gives a player is a right to train with the first team. Opportunities in competitive games are earned from that point on, no player has a right to expect games no matter how much they're paid or how big their reputations are.

It was the constant, public attacking of him in games where he didn't do much wrong, or at the very least was no worse than plenty of other United players. That is bullying...he isolates individual players, slaughters them in public and treats them more aggressively than others when the performance levels are no different.

If I remember right, around thie time when he was playing badly he had one really good game and, when pressed for comment on Shaw's good performance, Mourinho somehow managed to slag him off anyway, saying the only reason he played well was because Mourinho told him step-by-step what to do at the side of the pitch. I can't remember the exact quotes but the implication was not just that he needed tutoring, but that he had no brain and needed Mourinho basically operating the controls for him.

None of the criticism in isolation looks especially shitty bar that one, each specific incident could be dismissed as trying to get through to Shaw that he needs to work harder, be more professional or whatever, and it seems like that is a reasonable criticism of Shaw. But it's the incessant public nature of it, coupled with the fact that he gets it far worse than other players who have played as badly or worse, that makes it bullying. I would say that Pogba is getting similar treatment now to an extent, although it's slightly more reasonable as he's supposed to be an elite level player who United look to for inspiration and has greater expectations on him in terms of performance.

Criticising Martial for wanting to be with his new-born son during pre-season was just embarrassing.

Jose always wants the spotlight, and makes everything about him. There's no denying that. Some of the shit he says is embarrassing. If he's defending the club then fair enough, but what annoys me is that he'll separate or distance himself from the club and then defend himself. Like the "football heritage" rant after losing to Sevilla where he talks about how he himself has knocked United out of the competition so we should accept that this shit happens at United. Or after the Spurs game on Monday where he said he's won more EPL titles than the other 19 managers combined. If none of those titles are with United, then I don't want to hear that shit. So yeah, he says a lot of bullshit that no one wants to hear.

But regarding Luke Shaw, all he's ever done is professionally criticised him. That's hardly bullying. When he does well, he praises him. Have you seen or read what he's said about Shaw over the last three games? He's been our best player and Jose's publicly let that be known.
His criticism of Shaw was merely in response to the press asking him why he's not being picked. Its not like Jose has gone out of his way to berate him.
I won't argue the case of his treatment of Martial though. He's screwed him over big time. But in Shaw's case, that's on Luke Shaw for the most part, and Shaw knows this.

[son_of_foley]

IMO Southgate could have been significantly braver with that squad

Chillwell should be there. Gray and Madison too.

Welbeck shouldn't be in it, RLC has not played so shouldn't be there either.

If it was me as well I would probably have dropped Lallana and I'm a fan. Delph too and probably Jesse Lingard.

So for me

Chilwell -> Delph
Foden -> Lallana
Lingard -> Madison
Gray -> Wellbeck

and then because I'm a dickhead probably Will Hughes in for RLC just to send the message that he needs to prioritise first team football sooner than later

[Torn]

I agree about Delph, Welbeck and Lallana but Lingard played every minute (well every meaningful minute, apart from Belgium games and saved in second half vs Panama) of a World Cup Semi Final campaign there's no way he would be dropped after a few weeks of a new season.

[son_of_foley]

Aye I just think he's not good enough but I get you

[son_of_foley]

I think that's the hardest bit of Southgates role for next 2 years. England had success at a world cup but a lot of it was down to a kind draw he needs to work out from the very successful youth sides who is the real deal and blood them because he's right the pool is changing and the opportunities for young English players at top clubs are dire so it's a tricky one.

On one hand he needs the most competitive team (although England should qualify most times without needing to be at 100%) but he has a chance to drill into these young players that sitting in a city or Chelsea reserve team for 7 years isn't good enough to play for England

[RFF Champ]

Demarai Gray isn't ready for international football, he needs to learn to pass first. In any case, Delph, Lallana and Welbeck are essentially 21, 22 and 23 in the pecking order so it's pretty irrelevant.

[son_of_foley]

Not if they aren't in mind for the next euros because having a succession plan is more relevant than having known quantities in back up positions for friendlies.

Southgate can lament lack of players and he has reason to what he needs to realise is that he has an opportunity to promote players who are playing to encourage others to make hard decisions on their future.

Not saying it's easy but he has to balance the ability to put someone like rlc in the shop window vs encouraging him to move for first team football for sake of his career.

I would say this is a step down and mindset change for the English team but probably necessary. You've a very strong under age panel and it's time to agitate them for first team football and development even if it means leaving the country

[Simon]

Yeah it feels very safe, I wonder if he's just showing loyalty to the players that served him so well at the World Cup though which is fair enough. I mean for example there's no way Lingard deserves to be dropped at all IMO, let alone for Maddison who has it all to prove in the PL. But I definitely agree that there were a few youngsters that could have got the call.

Chilwell will be there soon enough but I don't think bringing two (relative) newcomers in at left back would be clever, and Shaw is more deserving based on this season so far. I'd have liked to have seen Wilson and Gray in for Vardy and Welbeck personally, although you could easily switch Gray out for Redmond, who has started this season well after a crap season last year, or Sancho.

Foden's time will come, but I don't think we should be bringing him into the squad when he's not getting anything more than the odd 10 minute cameo for City. Conor Coady was talked about too - I've not seen him prior to this season but I've seen all of Wolves games so far and he has looked really good, although he strikes me as another solid, reliable centre like Tarkowski, Maguire etc who won't let you down but are nowhere near the elite level we'd ideally want.

[son_of_foley]

Yeah it feels very safe, I wonder if he's just showing loyalty to the players that served him so well at the World Cup though which is fair enough. I mean for example there's no way Lingard deserves to be dropped at all IMO, let alone for Maddison who has it all to prove in the PL. But I definitely agree that there were a few youngsters that could have got the call.

Chilwell will be there soon enough but I don't think bringing two (relative) newcomers in at left back would be clever, and Shaw is more deserving based on this season so far. I'd have liked to have seen Wilson and Gray in for Vardy and Welbeck personally, although you could easily switch Gray out for Redmond, who has started this season well after a crap season last year, or Sancho.

Foden's time will come, but I don't think we should be bringing him into the squad when he's not getting anything more than the odd 10 minute cameo for City. Conor Coady was talked about too - I've not seen him prior to this season but I've seen all of Wolves games so far and he has looked really good, although he strikes me as another solid, reliable centre like Tarkowski, Maguire etc who won't let you down but are nowhere near the elite level we'd ideally want.

Maddison is very exciting and it's a problem position for me. Central midfield needs a proper rejig which is why I would see what the likes of Hughes and Maddison could bring. Especially in friendlies. Time with the squad and in and around the squad is important. I feel like he they should at least be invited to training and get used to being in that world.

We'll see I'm not even having a dig at Southgate he's in a tough position but think he has some really brave choices to make in the next 2 years. He needs a real backup for Kane and one for Ali. He needs to improve on Lingaard imo and he a lot of work ahead in central midfield.

[JP]

Southgate doesn't really do sweeping changes though, he's very much more the slow evolution kind. Given one of them is a competitive fixture against Spain too (I'm getting rather excited about this Nation's League malarky) not that surprising he's staying close to what is the closest thing to a proven formula we've had since 96.

[Simon]

Does anyone know exactly how serious this Nations League thing is supposed to be? Is it actually expected to be competitive or is it just an Emirates Cup type thing?

[son_of_foley]

Does anyone know exactly how serious this Nations League thing is supposed to be? Is it actually expected to be competitive or is it just an Emirates Cup type thing?

For the top tier sides I think the trophy is the hook. Little prestige atm but the qualifcation boost is probably where it's at for the lower teams.

Should offer a better chance for Euro qualification for especially lower ranked teams but in real terms it's also a fail safe to try an ensure Italy etc can qualify I think.

In a way they will devalue Euro qualification as someone from league D will definitely qualify for the euros which is the proper minnows so yeah it's a bit janky that way but the way the Euro tournament is going I think it was going to happen due to the expansion

[Simon]

You lot that thought England were cunts for getting excited about doing alright at the World Cup, just you wait. If we win this two bob tournament we will never shut up. Some people still go on about Le Tournoi.

[wardy]

They just make it easier and easier for Scotland to qualify and all it dies is make it more pathetic when we don't. It'll be even harder to take this time considering a few of the games will be up here.

[Gary J]

Spurs fans must be happy Son Heung-min will be in FIFA 19 instead of Battlefield V.

[Peter Griffin]

Going to my first England game next Tuesday Just a shame I have to sit in that shit heap clubs stadium

[Simon]

Spurs fans must be happy Son Heung-min will be in FIFA 19 instead of Battlefield V.

Tottenham fans are already singing he's from Seoul but he's not a soldier. He isn't from Seoul.

[son_of_foley]

Will be raging if Wales play the Denmark amateurs. Fluky bastards

[Peter Griffin]

Will be raging if Wales play the Denmark amateurs. Fluky bastards

[son_of_foley]

Not sure what you mean. You know northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland are different teams right?

[Peter Griffin]

No, I'm a unionist.

[son_of_foley]

Northern Ireland have been amazing but somehow are losing to Bosnia.

Not sure how we haven't scored

[Peter Griffin]

Doesn't look great this.

[son_of_foley]

Gray and chillwell added to squad is good I think. Hughes should be there but can't have everything

[Peter Griffin]

Interesting, Bit gutted as was looking forward to seeing Rashford live, Anyhow there is still one spot left right? May as well use it for a friendly I would have thought.

[Peter Griffin]

My initial confusion when I saw Ryan Babel trending on Twitter

13 years between competitive goals for Holland

[Simon]

Roy Keane up to his old tricks again. Less of a leader nowadays and more of an aggressive, thick arsehole like you see in a Wetherspoons.

[son_of_foley]

Roy Keane up to his old tricks again. Less of a leader nowadays and more of an aggressive, thick arsehole like you see in a Wetherspoons.

Honestly expecting him and Martin to be out on their fucking ear soon enough

[son_of_foley]

Steven Davis is still brilliant so Mark Hughes can go fuck himself

[son_of_foley]

Liverpool have battered spurs so far

[Chris Scott]

Don’t get why Spurs came into this game all weird and nervous?

[Simon]

Liverpool have battered spurs so far

That game is why Liverpool will win nothing again. Utterly dominant the entire game, but their laughable wastefulness almost cost them. City would have put about 10 past us today.

[wardy]

You sound like me when Rangers used to beat us 10 years ago.

[son_of_foley]

That game is why Liverpool will win nothing again. Utterly dominant the entire game, but their laughable wastefulness almost cost them. City would have put about 10 past us today.

I would say that game is why spurs won't win anything but I take your point

[Simon]

We aren't going to win anything anyway, it doesn't need to be said...whereas Liverpool are suddenly being touted as challengers to City. Poch has no interest in the cups and we're not good enough to win the league or CL, so we won't win anything. City will win the league comfortably again. We were a bad decision from Oliver on the late penalty shout away from robbing a point there because Liverpool wasted their total dominance.

[Canuck]

I know it's not English Football, but Zlatan's latest goal was absolute sex and no one goes in the US thread.

https://www.facebook.com/TSN/videos/1606445886128440/

[Romford Pele]

3rd win on the bounce now. Defence still looks leaky but good to see the goals spread around.

[The Rosk]

So good to see so much love for Milner at the moment. He’s been my favourite player from the last ten years as most of you know. A mountain of a man. ❤️

[Peter Griffin]

He is pretty awesome.

[Chris Scott]

We aren't going to win anything anyway, it doesn't need to be said...whereas Liverpool are suddenly being touted as challengers to City. Poch has no interest in the cups and we're not good enough to win the league or CL, so we won't win anything. City will win the league comfortably again. We were a bad decision from Oliver on the late penalty shout away from robbing a point there because Liverpool wasted their total dominance.

Still could have missed the pen.

[son_of_foley]

We aren't going to win anything anyway, it doesn't need to be said...whereas Liverpool are suddenly being touted as challengers to City. Poch has no interest in the cups and we're not good enough to win the league or CL, so we won't win anything. City will win the league comfortably again. We were a bad decision from Oliver on the late penalty shout away from robbing a point there because Liverpool wasted their total dominance.

Lack of ambition will bite them in the arse I think. Eriksens contract is up in 2020 right or is that not accurate? Can't see him staying right now

I thought Liverpool played well. I saw a lot of reports that thought differently.

I think it'll be an interesting title race. Do wonder if Chelsea may spend a little in January

[Simon]

Liverpool were superb but missed about fifty chances. The gap in class was absolutely huge yet they had to rely on a refereeing error (albeit a difficult one to see) to get the win. Clearly they are likely to better than last year but I don't see them getting near City.

I'm not one for panicking tbh, despite not starting the season well we're doing alright, sixth in the league with winnable games coming up (IF we improve). That said there are a lot of players who could play at a higher level and if we have a bad season that is more likely to happen. Eriksen is in that group - hes started this season poorly as he often does, but I still find it mad that no top sides are in for him. There has to be a reason for it - I suspect that, like Lloris, there's probably a major weakness in his game that turns the top teams' scouts off him. Fucked if I know what it is though as he is class, at least with Lloris it's obvious.

[Chris Scott]

Lack of ambition will bite them in the arse I think. Eriksens contract is up in 2020 right or is that not accurate? Can't see him staying right now

I thought Liverpool played well. I saw a lot of reports that thought differently.

I think it'll be an interesting title race. Do wonder if Chelsea may spend a little in January

Agreed thought we played really well, easily our best performance so far. Another day it’s 5 or 6-1.

[son_of_foley]

If there's not more goals in this something weird has happened

[Canuck]

Offsides doesn't matter.

[Romford Pele]

Anyone know when Grant Holt became a wrestler? He certainly has the build for it

[MikeHunt]

Read one of the 500 articles about it from today and you will find out. Lazy fucker.

[UK Blue]

He should bring in Paul Lambert as his manager.

[son_of_foley]

Any thoughts on the loan limit stuff?

Talk of 6 maximum. Wonder if this will be for players over 21 or 23 or something. Massive change to come in otherwise. Assume Chelsea would just hold on to most of these players and look to get their b sides in the league if they can under the guise of young English talent getting league time

[Badger]

Wrong thread.

[Pablo Diablo]

What a fucking shambles.

[RFF Champ]

Who is looking forward to Cardiff v Burnley? ...and it's LIVE

[Simon]

Two weeks in a row the PL have allowed the big sides to have 3pm Saturday kick offs, they must be preparing for some mental weekends later on down the line. Cardiff/Burnley screams 'kill two birds with one stone wasting our contracted smaller club games by televising them against each other'.

[Simon]

@RuneEdge Do you still stand by your assessment that Mourinho's time at United shouldn't be considered a failure?

[Peter Griffin]

Not a failure, A fucking abomination, Gone by Christmas at the latest.

[RuneEdge]

@RuneEdge Do you still stand by your assessment that Mourinho's time at United shouldn't be considered a failure?

Right now, yeah. But you were wrong in thinking he was when you initially asked the question.

[Simon]

I was bang right, as I always am.

Great news lads, Tottenham have been shit all season despite our decent record, we're playing Barca tonight and we're without Vertonghen, Dembele, Alli, Eriksen and a couple of others. Still, at least our drink-driving captain is fit again and our stadium is set to be finished within the next six months.

[RuneEdge]

I was bang right, as I always am.

You called him a failure before he's failed. And now that he's failed, you're saying you were right.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day, or however that saying goes.

[Simon]

He was already failing at that time and clearly wasn't going to get better. Everything I said earlier in this thread has happened as I said - if you want an appropriate saying, this isn't a stopped clock being right twice a day, it's you being late to the party. Everyone knew this was how it would end up, you just took longer getting there.

[RuneEdge]

He was already failing at that time and clearly wasn't going to get better. Everything I said earlier in this thread has happened as I said - if you want an appropriate saying, this isn't a stopped clock being right twice a day, it's you being late to the party. Everyone knew this was how it would end up, you just took longer getting there.

You're still saying this, and you're still wrong. No one expected him to reach his goals from the get go. It was supposed to be a process. He was given a three year contract with the aim to win the title within those three years. At the point of you making your comment, he hadn't failed yet.
In the first year he won a domestic and a European trophy, and took a team that was in the Europa League and got them Champion's League qualification. Both of those points being an improvement on the previous 2 managers. The following year he makes the FA Cup final and finishes 2nd in the league. Again, both being further improvements on where the team got to previously. The next logical step was to now go and win the league this season.
Of course it's become apparent now that he's most likely not going to, which is why now he's failed. But at the point of when you made your comment, he hadn't failed at all.

[Slare]

Runedge what the fuck are you on about?

Simon: Mourinho will fail, this is what will happen, it will be a failure

Mourinho: fails in the way simon generally describes

Simon: see

Runedge: yeah but you said it before he did it so you were wrong because he hadnt done it yet.


Do you know how foresight and predictions work yeah?

[Simon]

It's not like it was even a difficult prediction, it was literally the exact path he has taken at every club he's ever been at. The only difference is, unlike elsewhere, he didn't do the successful bit first. That's why he had already failed when I made those comments, and the fact he has gone on to continue on the exact path everyone predicted just confirms that he had already failed. He was already on the 'torch everything on the way out' part of his routine, it was completely obvious that if he hadn't already succeeded by that point, he wasn't going to at all.

[RuneEdge]

Runedge what the fuck are you on about?

Simon: Mourinho will fail, this is what will happen, it will be a failure

Mourinho: fails in the way simon generally describes

Simon: see

Runedge: yeah but you said it before he did it so you were wrong because he hadnt done it yet.


Do you know how foresight and predictions work yeah?

Can you even read? Its not a prediction when he's talking about ALREADY FAILING. If he had said "I think he's going to fail" or some comment about what he thinks is going to happen, then my response simply would've been "well lets wait and see", and that would've been the end of the discussion. I can't argue against a prediction, especially when my own stance with Mourinho has always been "this doesn't look great, but lets see where this goes".
The issue is in saying Mourinho had already failed months ago (we're talking like halfway into last season). Disregarding how the team plays and what your predictions may be, he had done a reasonable job up until that point, based on the trophies he'd won, and heading towards a FA Cup final and a 2nd place finish to a City side that went on to break the record for the highest ever points total in a Premier League season. And my point was further backed up by the fact that the board gave Mourinho a contract extension.
Back then when Simon called him a failure, he was wrong.

And now Simon's gonna act like it was a prediction all along.

[Simon]

He had already failed because any cunt could see from that point on he was not going to achieve what was expected of him during his time at United. He was already on the well-trodden path to the door. You held out hope he might still come good but anyone could have told you that wasn't going to happen. By the time I made those predictions it was blatantly obvious that Mourinho was not going to succeed at United - I gave you specific reasons why, all of which have been borne out. He was already past the point at which he could realistically succeed. He had failed.

[RuneEdge]

Yeah, that's a prediction.

[RFF Champ]

Winks and Wanyama hardly been given a fair crack at this. Completely overrun by the numbers they're up against.

[Simon]

Thought we were pretty good today for the most part, undone by a couple of silly mistakes and a couple of ridiculously good goals. Messi is different gear, the game just slows down around him. I know there's nothing new to say about him but seeing him as an opponent for the first time gave a new perspective. He fills you with dread when he gets the ball regardless of where it is. Up front, centre mid, left back...just doesn't matter. Frighteningly brilliant.

Also Lamela is fucking brilliant, even better than Messi.

[son_of_foley]

Well done Gareth Southgate. Brave squad. Moving things forward and giving young exciting players a chance. Very refreshing.

[RFF Champ]

You're only saying that cos it's another point you can make in your post when you bring up you discovered Maddison.

[Simon]

Good move, but it seems odd that he's brought in three players that are unlikely to get much action and, as good as they are, probably aren't desperately needed (possibly not true in Maddison's case?) when Foden seems to be exactly the type of player England are missing. I see that Winks is back in, who at least offers an element of what Foden - less creative but more movement and rotation of possession - maybe that's why Southgate is inclined to wait a while longer with Foden.

We're just starting to see the old Winks again now after a long injury, he was a bit patchy last night with a few misplaced passes (albeit against a horrible team to play against with the relentless pressing) but he definitely showed that dynamism that is missing from England's midfield at the moment.

[son_of_foley]

You're only saying that cos it's another point you can make in your post when you bring up you discovered Maddison.

hahaha I was well late to the Maddison love in party I think.

I just think it's nice he wants to bring some younger lads through. Definitely needed with a potential very strong generation coming through to take no prisoners

[TraXX]

Knew it wouldn't be long.

[RFF Champ]

I'd sack Mourinho due to style of football but Man U knew that when hiring him. His record of 81 points, second place and two trophies last year was very very good.

[Peter Griffin]

I think Jose is a cunt as much as most here, But Nevilles 'Rant' on Sky last night had merit.

[Romford Pele]

Fucking hell what is going on at Old Trafford

Must be Jose's last game. Must be.

[wardy]

Who's next? Poch?

[Pablo Diablo]

No one is giving a fuck out there. The defending has been horrible and this year de Gea isn't bailing them out by being a superman.

Been many, many good years as a United fan. Now settling in for some lean years. Needs a complete cultural reset, at the very least getting something exciting to watch again.

[Pablo Diablo]

Never in doubt.

My earlier statements still apply, they just gave some fucks in the second half. Still need a complete change. Newcastle are shite after all.

[RFF Champ]

Now settling in for some lean years.

2 trophies last season!

[Pablo Diablo]

Two seasons ago (and it was 3, I'm going to claim that Community Shield now).

As I said settling in, not that we're there yet. It could only be a year or two and United will compete again. Definitely have the financial clout for that to happen. But too many times over the past couple seasons and its gotten worse this season the team doesn't have a look of winning anything. I'm not worried about relegation or anything like that. I just don't see them contending for titles. In the PL, City has established themselves as being better than United, Liverpool have passed them, same with Spurs. Chelsea is also ascending.

Really a lot can be fixed if United can figure out a back 4, but that's been an issue dating from well before Jose.

[Pablo Diablo]

My usage of lean is also a relative lean and is referring only to titles. I know that United are still overall in a very good position.

[Romford Pele]

Jammy bastards. Utd were lucky with that missed handball

[Simon]

Who's next? Poch?

Don't think he would go to that rabble. Thank Christ, because he would do brilliantly there.

[Simon]

I hate Chelsea fans as much as the next man but gassing them seems harsh.

[son_of_foley]

God Scotland were shite yday. We smashed Israel last month albeit at home but they are soft.

Be interesting to see how we got on at Austria tonight. Not expecting much but recent performances have been great so you never know.

[JP]

I hate Chelsea fans as much as the next man but gassing them seems harsh.

Have to say though, I think it's a brilliant idea.

[The Rosk]

I like Smith. It seems too ideal to actually work in reality. A Villa fan, loves the youth and attacking football, good Championship record with significantly less means at his disposal... what’s the catch here.

Terry to make a play after three months through shouting. Finish 7th. Club dies

Nah

TOP ONE THIS YEAR LADS

[Peter Griffin]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45834453

Derby should offer him a deal

[RFF Champ]

Cyrus Christie in centre midfield

[son_of_foley]

Hahah they do play some shit atm

[son_of_foley]

Martin oneill and Alex mcleish have been left behind by football fuck the pair of them

[Lagom]

I like Smith. It seems too ideal to actually work in reality. A Villa fan, loves the youth and attacking football, good Championship record with significantly less means at his disposal... what’s the catch here.

Terry to make a play after three months through shouting. Finish 7th. Club dies

Nah

TOP ONE THIS YEAR LADS

If he can get the midfield and attack playing the sort of football he wants (and let’s be honest, with the talent now at his disposal, it shouldn’t be that difficult), then that’s a massive step, but miracles need to be worked with the defence and goalkeeper at the minute. Having Terry around the club can surely only help in that department, and it will hopefully keep Grealish sweet for the short to mid term as well after his positive impact on him last season. O’Kelly is on board with Smith now, and seemingly Terry as coach was never a deal breaker for the club, so fingers crossed he’s there for a bit of first hand learning before going out into the real world to have a crack at it himself, rather than it being a long game for the top job at VP.

[son_of_foley]

This Republic team are a rotten watch

[son_of_foley]

Wales should qualify for a world cup with this group of players should be considered a failure if they don't. Defense is shite but everything else is really decent at least for 1st choice

[Simon]

Brooks and Wilson look like proper players.

[Simon]

Brooks and Wilson look like proper players.

- - - Updated - - -

Double post across nine minutes, BEAT THAT

[Peter Griffin]

If Derby are to do anything this season Wilson and Mount will be key #StatingTheObvious

[son_of_foley]

Brooks and Wilson look like proper players.

Ampadu as well.

Ampadu/Ramsey
Then Wilson/Bale/Brooks

is a pretty tidy midfield. Then you can have Vokes or similar there to hold things up or push Bale further up and put someone like Tom Lawrence in that 3.

Ben Davies good. Everywhere else could be upgraded across back and in nets but should be enough for a world cup qualification in terms of raw materials

[MikeHunt]

were england actaully good the other night? cause the stats do not make it seem so.

[Simon]

Yeah they were fantastic. Spain dominated possession but bar the late flurry when they scored and hit the post they never really troubled England, whereas England looked like scoring more or less every time they got the ball. There was a short period where it legit looked like it could end 5-0 or 6-0.

Check the goals if you can bear it. Really excellent, incisive stuff. Spain looked absolutely terrified of the England attack.