I had him in at 11.
As we get to more footage available, the better I feel I am to judge them as players.
I had him in at 11.
As we get to more footage available, the better I feel I am to judge them as players.
I don't really fret ranking the classic era dudes. There's tons of info and I rather enjoy looking it up as a sports dork.
I wouldn't get in a fist fight over my choices, but I'd happily bat around my reasons with anyone and try and have fun with it. That being kinda the point.
It's more I can't make as strong arguments for classic era dudes outside of those with absurd stats as I can for people who I have more footage to watch and whose games I actually had the chance to watch.
I guess between the stats, the pretty abundant video footage, the anecdotal tales, the analytic data for historical context I just don't see the fuss.
Player comps are made all the time between eras, stats are compiled that separate eras, stories are told and distinctions are made between eras.. and I guess also is like I said it's part of the fun.
Just not trying to make it even a medium deal, much less a big deal.
I mean...you know I still ranked older players. I'm not making a fuss.
I'm just saying my arguments are weaker than about those I saw live. I don't know how that's a controversial thing for me to say and be called out on.
I only mentioned it after seeing you bring it up a few times. My bad then.
Yea Perc and I have had that same discussion before. We can rank the old timers but our perspective on them is more limited than the guys we experienced in our lifetimes. Dr. J being a good example. It's hard for me to quantify his dominance, but I had him 20th (likely underrated by me).
Dr. J is a tough one. His historical ranking seemed to go down after his retirement (not just relative to modern players), as less and less people factor in the ABA days (and there's not a lot of video).
He's one that I constantly forget to rank until I'm deeper, and then get mad at myself. I go back and forth, but he usually ends up in the mid to high teens for me.
#11
Hakeem Olajuwon
Born: January 21, 1963
Years Active: 1984-2002
Height: 6'10 Weight: 255
College: University of Houston
Position: Center
Career Stats: 21.8 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.7 spg, 3.1 bpg, .512 fgp, .202 3pp, .712 ftp
12x All-Star, 6x All-NBA 1st Team, 5x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, 2x Defensive PoY, 2x Rebounding Leader, 3x Blocked Shots Leader
2x NBA Champion, 1x NBA MVP, 2x NBA Finals MVP, HoF
Points: 112
Votes: 11
Ranked Highest by: Percussion (6th)
Hot take: When Jordan left to play baseball, Olajuwon was the best player in the NBA.
Recap..
11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Julius Erving
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Jerry West
15. Steph Curry
16. Scottie Pippen
17. Karl Malone
18. Kevin Durant
19. Dirk Nowitzki
20. Charles Barkley
I honestly wish Jordan had still been there, we matched up really well..Originally Posted by Stan Accy
The Rockets went 12-9 during the 21 times Olajuwon faced Jordan and the Bulls heads up during their careers -
and Olajuwon averaged 23.4 points, 11.7 rebounds, 3.5 blocks, 1.9 steals, and had a 51.3 FG%.
I had him at 9th. One of four players with a quadruple-double. All-time leader in blocked shots.
He actually had a second one in the same month with 29 pts, 18 rbds, 11 blks, and 10 assts, but it was rescinded by the nba afterwards to 9 assts.
Only NBA player to retire in the all-time top ten for blocks, scoring, rebounding, and steals.
Only player to win a Championship, DPoY, MVP, and Finals MVP in one season.
I'm admittedly a little bias, but damn..
I had him at 12th. Probably dropped down from his true rating because of those glorious glorious Raptors years
But seriously, the Dream in his day was truly one of the greats. It would have been interesting to see how they would have done those years against a Jordan Bulls team. One of those what ifs, but they were a good team.
Definitely not that crazy a take.
I can't find my list in sent messages. I don't remember deleting it.
Just sent it back to you..
Thanks! It's better to follow this when you know how bad you suck at evaluating legendary basketball talent.
My favorite Hakeem moment is David Robinson getting MVP for the regular season in the second Rockets championship and Hakeem saying, He has my trophy, then just destroying him that series to prove a point.
That series was over the top legendary. Dream just single-handedly wrecking the nba's new 'mvp'...
pts -- reb -- assts -- stl -- blk -- fg%
35.3 - 12.5 - 5.0 - 1.3 - 4.2 - .560
23.8 - 11.3 - 2.7 - 1.5 - 2.2 - .449
I had Hakeem 12th.
None of my top 10 has appeared yet, and I'm pretty confident my top 10 will match the top 10 of the group rankings (not in order but just in terms of who appears). Not exactly surprising because I didn't have any bold top 10 rankings in there. I'm curious to see the order.
#10
Shaquille O'Neal
Born: March 6, 1972
Years Active: 1992-2011
Height: 7'1 Weight: 325
College: Louisiana State University
Position: Center
Career Stats: 23.7 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 2.5 apg, .6 spg, 2.3 bpg, .582 fgp, .045 3pp, .527 ftp
15x All-Star, 8x All-NBA 1st Team, NBA RoY, 2x NBA Scoring Champion, 4x NBA Champion, 1x NBA MVP, 3x NBA Finals MVP, HoF
Points: 136
Votes: 12
Ranked Highest by: Stan Accy (7th)
I loved that as well. I miss MVPs being named at the end of the regular season.
where would shaq's life have gone without basketball? that is to say, what do 7 foot tall people do if they can't ball? must be awful.
anyway he is another physical phenom. a specimen.
:wonders how much more dominant Diesel would have been had he been able to hit a damn free throw:
If Shaq had been able to hit at even a 70% clip from the stripe over the course of his career, that’s another ~2,500 points. Not to mention, the numerous late game possessions that he missed out on because the coach was like “Shaq will just
get fouled the second he touches the ball and we’ll be lucky to get one of two points”.
And the fact that O’Neal didn’t give two shits about off-season conditioning is a whole other discussion...
Physical monster. Can only imagine what he would have been like if the hack a shaq wasn't so effective.
Definitely would be higher up on the list. When he got the ball down low though he was unstoppable.
I will always hold special place in my heart for Shaq. I had the honor of meeting him in an elevator on my honeymoon in Hawaii - he was in the same hotel. My wife and I had been waiting for the elevator and this huge hulking man came up with a few folks following him with stuff they wanted signed. We got in the same same elevator, and after he signed a hat and shirt for the other people he looked at me as if I had something I wanted signed. I told him I'd just like to shake his hand, and he offered it with a wide, sincere smile. His hands made mine look like a small child by comparison. We said "Aloha" and shook hands. It turned out we were both on the same floor - at other ends.
As a player, Shaq had his flaws, and it was because of those that I left him off my top 20.
He seems like a great dude, would love to have a couple beers with him.
When Shaq was on, he was arguably top 5 for dominance. Could just be an absolute fucking force. I know he was limited when the game was close, but often he did a great job making sure the game wasn't close.
his conditioning and some of the other stuff limited him. I once heard him compared to the kid who could have been valedictorian if he worked hard. But he went to a lot of parties, had a great time, and graduated with a 3.5. Shaq seems like he enjoys his life, even if didn't meet his full potential.
Fair enough.
he had a pretty successful career for an underachiever
#9
Tim Duncan
Born: April 25, 1976
Years Active: 1997-2016
Height: 6'11 Weight: 250
College: Wake Forest University
Position: Big
Career Stats: 19 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 3 apg, .7 spg, 2.2 bpg, .506 fgp, .179 3pp, .696 ftp
15x All-Star, 10x All-NBA 1st Team, NBA RoY, 8x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, 5x NBA Champion, 2x NBA MVP, 3x NBA Finals MVP, HoF
Points: 143
Votes: 14
Ranked Highest by: Chris Scott, Mazer, Pablo Diablo, kdestiny, Mr. Boombastic (7th)
I noticed that Duncan is the first player to make everyone's list. During most of his career, I always felt he was underrated as a player, perhaps because he wasn't obnoxious, he didn't talk smack, and he didn't play in a huge market. It seemed to me that only during his later years did he get the respect from fans across the country, and he's gotten tons of it.
He made everyone better. Best interior help defender I've ever seen. Just strong all-around. Underrated as a winner.
His personality, his game, none of it was flashy. But he was the anchor of one of the truly great teams over a long span.
A leader on the court and someone you can always rely on to put up outstanding numbers.
That his highest rated spot was 7th isn't surprising as he's not the greatest of all time. But that 5 of us put him in at 7 shows just how many of us saw his greatness all the same.
He should have sported this look in the middle of his career..
Easy top 5 if he had that look.
Is it a super hot take to say that maybe Duncan wasn't all that underrated as opposed to being just properly rated?
All-time lists will have him consistently in the top ten. Our simple list here does as well. He's widely recognized as one of the best ever, and almost universally as the best power forward ever.
I don't mean to be too contrarian here, but he was also the beneficiary of one of the greatest coaches of all time in Poppovich and bevy of support around him in both stars and role players from a stellar front office for the better part of two decades. He definitely deserves his credit for squeezing every last ounce out of the hand he was given, but there are also guys who've reached his kind of accomplishments with far, far less.
Idk, I sound like a hater here when I really admire Timmy as a baller and as a seemingly legit good dude. Just the idea that he's not respected I think is a little overplayed at this point.
His underratedness is overrated
Precisely.
I feel like when people say Duncan is underrated, they are really just talking about him and Kobe. It is their way of saying that Duncan is better than Kobe (without trying to start a fight with Kobe-stans).
Like Percussion said, his place in the overall pantheon in NBA history is hard to argue; best PF ever, Top 10 all-time
I meant to say that he was underrated for most of his playing career. He didn't get the love from fans as one of the all-time greats while he was playing, but I don't think any of that mattered to him - he just wanted to get out on the court and win.
Duncan vs Kobe is a good debate, and we can discuss Kobe more later but I will jump ahead a little here in the interest of this comparison... Even before Kobe's death, while I did often bring up their comparisons (both had 5 titles, etc), I put Kobe slightly ahead. His final game really sealed it for me (silly as that may sound). I know it was just a spectacle, but his final game was one of the most memorable regular season games (if not THE most) I can recall. And maybe it is unfair to consider that an elite scorer superstar player (in every sense of the word) is more "great" than a big PF who plays fundamental basketball as good as anyone ever has, but to me, captivating the nation and moving the needle does factor into greatness, especially when their accomplishments are so similar on paper.
So yea, it's possible Duncan is underrated against Kobe because for all of Kobe's scoring prowess and flash, Duncan may have been a more effective player overall. I don't know. I flirted with the Duncan over Kobe stance for a period, but I'm off it now. I think it is still apt to include them in the conversation together given they both played in the same era and accomplished very similar things in regard to titles/accolades.
I do agree Duncan was underrated during his career for a while, until he got to 4 rings and then 5.
They came into the league one year apart, left the same season, and each played their whole careers with one team in the same conference for power franchises.
So how'd they do head to head in the playoffs, when it mattered most?
They faced off in seven series against one another - one in the first round, four times in the conf semis, and twice in the conf finals.
Kobe and the Lakers would take four of them total to three for Duncan and SA. Only got to six games twice, with two reaching five games, and three sweeps.
Total games goes barely to the Lakers as well, 18-16.
So, make of that what you will..
As I was about to go into the argument about having another Top 10 all time player on your team in Shaq I realized the Admiral didn't make it on the list (most likely)
Shame. He must be the one I sent in that Pippen (who I didn't put on) replaced.
#8
Bill Russell
Born: February 12, 1934
Years Active: 1956-1969
Height: 6'10 Weight: 215
College: University of San Francisco
Position: Center
Career Stats: 15.1 ppg, 22.5 rpg, 4.3 apg, --- spg, --- bpg, .440 fgp, --- 3pp, .561 ftp
12x All-Star, 3x All-NBA 1st Team, 1x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, 4x NBA Rebounding Leader 11x NBA Champion, 5x NBA MVP, HoF
Points: 169
Votes: 12
Ranked Highest by: 3puppies (3rd)
Underrated fact: Bill Russell was the first black head coach in North American professional sports (1966).
Two of you didn't include Russell in the top twenty? C'mon man. Championships matter.
5 MVPs also matter. He wasn't a product of his team, his team was a product of him.
I'll save my Bill Russell vs Wilt Chamberlain take for now, but I had Bill higher. It's another good debate of players from the same era. I'm not going to blame anyone for choosing either.
Seems relevant that Kobe was only 13-21 against Duncan post-Shaq. Although the Lakers did win the only playoff matchup after Shaq.
I would take Shaq+Kobe over Duncan+Manu (or Parker) but if it just Duncan vs Kobe, I would take Duncan.
Championships might matter but does beating slow, white guys who can't jump or shoot really matter?
(Even after that, I would have had Russell 5th).
I think some of the managers from the Negro Leagues would have a thing to say about that.
I thought he was the first black head coach to coach white players.
I took that verbiage from wikipedia but you are right, I believe it should be first black head coach in any of the major north american pro sports leagues.
And there is also an exception to this which is Fritz Pollard, who was co-coach of the NFL's Akron Pros in 1921.
I got your back when its time for that debate.
But, I might end up blaming people.
I hear the Popovich point come up for Timmy from time to time.
Kobe had Phil. MJ had Phil. Bill had Red. Magic had Pat. Kareem had Pat.
And Wilt had to drive his coaches insane.
Its Duncan over Kobe for me.
#7
Wilt Chamberlain
Born: August 21, 1936
Years Active: 1958-1973
Height: 7'1 Weight: 280
College: University of Kansas
Position: Center
Career Stats: 30.1 ppg, 22.9 rpg, 4.4 apg, --- spg, --- bpg, .540 fgp, --- 3pp, .511 ftp
13x All-Star, 7x All-NBA 1st Team, NBA RoY, 2x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, 7x NBA Scoring Champion,
11x NBA Rebounding Leader, 1x NBA Assist Leader, 2x NBA Champion, 1x Finals MVP, 4x NBA MVP, HoF
Points: 189
Votes: 14
Ranked Highest by: CWE (1st)
Last edited by Percussion; December 3rd, 2020 at 8:44 AM.
#1 by MILES for me.
Now Wilt is actually someone who IS underrated. He is like the Babe Ruth of the NBA. He set every individual record possible, most of which will never be touched. But by all measures, he was also a truly selfish human being who only cared about himself.
Some people collect stamps. Wilt collected women.
Wilt was the ultimate scorer in the regular season, but when you look at the postseason his numbers crash down to reality. Career points per game in the regular season versus the playoffs:
Wilt: 30.1 regular season, 22.5 playoffs (-7.6)
Russell: 15.1 regular season, 16.2 playoffs (+1.1)
That is an interesting drop off that you don't see with any of these other all time greats (at least not that I'm aware of). Russell held a 29-20 (W-L) edge in playoff games between he and Wilt, with Wilt's teams going 1-7 versus the Celtics in those 8 series.
Russell was an impressive 10-0 in his career in game 7's (including 4-0 versus Wilt in game 7's).
No one doubts that the Celtics were the best team of the 60s. Every great player had a similar record against Russell's Celtics.
I actually think Russell's back-to-back NCAA titles and 55 straight wins (my old Spanish teacher was on that team he told us) and then a Gold Medal is more impressive than his NBA career. He didn't lose a competitive basketball game for over 2 years.
I think you hit the nail on the head as to why he's often looked over in the GOAT convos..
They would if those 8 series between Wilt and the Celtics went differently. The Celtics didn't cruise to all those titles with no competition. The Celtics had to get through Wilt, arguably the greatest basketball player ever to live, 8 times. 4 of those times it went to game 7.
Where does the slow white guys argument come into play with Wilt?
How does it differ from one to the other?
yes, right. we agree. I missed that you just made the same point.
That's my bad, I read you wrong the first time..
They only had to win two series to win a title most seasons. They beat Wilt in the Eastern Finals, then they beat the Lakers in the NBA Finals. It wasn't "no competition" but it wasn't exactly a epic marathon either.
Because most of the other guys on the court were slow white guys in the 60s.
Anyway like I said I won't blame anyone for having Wilt higher. It's a classic debate. And I of course agree that Bill Russel's 11 titles need to be put in context given that there were only 8 teams in the league at the start of his career. And everyone already takes that into context, otherwise having 11 titles and 5 MVPs would probably make him the easy GOAT.
In regard to the slow white guy argument, I don't have much to add because in truth I have never watched a full game of Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain. I wasn't watching those seasons to see how ridiculous it was for Wilt to score 50 points a game versus his competition, or for both of these guys to average 25 rebounds a game. But yea it was surely a different era, and these guys were completely dominant in it. Wilt more so with the personal stats/scoring, and Russell more so with leading his team to titles.
I had Russell 4th, and Wilt 7th.
It was a joke as much as my hard opinion too.
Like you said, "played in the 60s" is a mental math we all do. But a more accurate stereotype is that they were less technically skilled rather than less physically talented (i.e they weren't really slow white guys). By the mid 60s, the athletic ability of the league was pretty good. But they had zero concept of "how" to play the game. They would take 20 foot running hook shots.
They also played at a breakneck pace at around 125 possessions or so a game as opposed to 100 today. And that 100 today is recently up from the low to mid 90's in the last decade or so.
Extra possessions means extra shooting and rebounding opportunities. That in addition to less skilled players and you take an athletic marvel like Wilt or a very good athletic and brilliant basketball iq like Russell and voila - insane statistics of a truly unique era.
Or like how Elgin Baylor was playing in the NBA on the weekends while he was still in the Army. Put up a 38/18.5 playing part-time in 1962.
Bill Russell played with 7 other Hall of Famers on that Celtics team and had arguably the greatest coach and team builder in sports history.
Red was a great coach and true innovator. I need to read a good Red biography someday.
But its not like Wilt, in his various stops, was playing with the Washington Generals. Particularly when you account for how many Celts likely made into the HOF because of the ships vs. individual numbers.
#6
Larry Bird
Born: December 7, 1956
Years Active: 1979-1992
Height: 6'9 Weight: 220
College: Indiana State University
Position: Forward
Career Stats: 24.3 ppg, 10 rpg, 6.3 apg, 1.7 spg, .8 bpg, .496 fgp, .376 3pp, .886 ftp
12x All-Star, 9x All-NBA 1st Team, NBA RoY, 2x 50-40-90 Club, 3x NBA Champion, 2x Finals MVP, 3x NBA MVP, HoF
Points: 192
Votes: 14
Ranked Highest by: Percussion, Randolph, Stan Accy, CWE (5th)
Recap..
6. Larry Bird
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Bill Russell
9. Tim Duncan
10. Shaquille O'Neal
11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Julius Erving
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Jerry West
15. Steph Curry
16. Scottie Pippen
17. Karl Malone
18. Kevin Durant
19. Dirk Nowitzki
20. Charles Barkley
And while we're on the subject of dudes who've grown to become underrated..
The GOAT of whiteboy ballers.
Shooting contest. Larry Bird or Steph Curry?
I pick Bird. Who you got?
My first instinct is Steph all day. But Bird really was that good of a shooter as well.
I think I still stick with Steph though.
In the interest of transparency, I include my submitted list:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. LeBron James
4. Bill Russell
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Julius Erving
7. Magic Johnson
8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Larry Bird
10. Tim Duncan
11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Shaquille O’Neal
13. Scotty Pippen
14. Isiah Thomas
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Steph Curry
17. Moses Malone
18. Oscar Robertson
19. Jerry West
20. Steve Nash
This was a really fun exercise, I tried to weight individual and team success equally. I attempted to compare across multiple generations despite really only becoming a hoops fan towards the tail end of MJ’s career.
So far as the 20 spot on my list, there were a lot of great options. I ultimately went with a slightly homerish pick, throwing my boy Captain Canada a spot a little higher than what he probably deserves. Fuck it: Hall of Famer, two time MVP, revolutionized the Point Guard position, was one of the top players in the league for a handful of years. He’s probably not a top-20 guy, but has very strong merits for top-50. A damn shame he couldn’t get a ‘ship as a player, the hazards of playing in a brutally strong Western Conference back in the day.
Bird is better than Steph as a shooter. I might give Steph the edge as a 3 point shooter, but Bird had an incredible way of getting ridiculous shots off , anywhere on the court and even while heavily defended.
I am surprised at those who voted Bird higher than Wilt or Russell (and still sore that 2 left Russell out of their top twenty).
Bird was the first player I hung a poster of up on my teenage wall. He had a pretty awesome cast to work with, but he got the very best out of them.
Then again, Bird is from French Lick, Indiana, which as everyone from Hanover Indiana knows, is the dufus capital of Indiana.
College. Pro. Olympic. Coach. GM. The guy won championships in every role.
I give Steph the edge has a pure shooter. Career 3 pt %, 2 pt%, and FT % (which is one thing at least that hasn't changed), all higher.
People forget what a great rebounder Larry was. 10 boards a game. Additionally, 6+assists a game (and some years where he was in the 7s) as a forward. Point forward before we knew what that was. 3 consecutive MVPS in a loaded era.
Properly rated right here.
Steph has a higher % because it's illegal to even look at shooters now. Put him in the 80s and he is dead. Put Bird in today's game and he is untouchable.
It's a legit point. Not as if Steph is just shooting for percentage though. He jacks shots that are low percentage for most anyone else.
He basically redefined range.
Steph would get brutalized when he drove in the 80s. But when he started pulling up 5 feet behind the line, DJ's head would explode.
I mean no hate for Curry. He is a legendary shooter. Both in volume and accuracy. Him and LeBron are the top 2 current day players that could have made my list.
You make it sound like Steph and Lebron aren't on your list.
No active player made my list
I didn't submit a list just because I couldn't figure out where to slot Steph and KD. I had the entire list done but just couldn't figure out what to do with them
LBJ is a different category already so I didn't have the issue with him.
"Zeke from Cabin Creek" would like a word even if he probably does agree it is Bird at the end (I had Jerry at 10; Larry at 7)
Since no one was asking and no one cares…
My Top 20 (missing Steph and KD since I didn't know what to do with them)
1. LBJ. (Made the NBA Finals more often than he missed them (10-7). How is that even possible?)
2. MJ.
3. KAJ.
4. Magic.
5. Russell
6. Wilt.
7. Bird
8. Kobe.
9. Duncan.
10. West
11. Hakeem
12. Shaq.
13. Oscar.
14. Dr J.
15. Moses
16. Elgin
17. Havelicek
18. Barkley.
TBA Steph and KD
Probably too skewed to the past. Players now are better but just haven't "achieved" what the older guys have.
Last edited by _me; December 4th, 2020 at 10:03 AM.
Only one active player made my list. This has been really fun to follow.
To answer some questions earlier, I had Oscar Robertson and Jerry West higher on my list because of my grandpa. He was lucky enough to go to a few of their games, and the way he talked about watching them play was incredbile to listen to as a child. He was telling my brothers and I these stories during the height of Michael Jordan, so that is why I hold them higher than everyone else.
I would agree with this. Bird is the better all around shooter. Steph is the better deep ball shooter.
Bird maybe could have been as good if the 3 point line existed before his rookie year in the NBA.
One of those two was probably me. Didn't grow up learning about famous basketball players from that time. The first one I remember hearing about was either Magic or Bird.
Considering only 4 of 14 lists had both Wilt and Russell ahead of Bird it really becomes a lot less surprising..
I think Wilt and Bill were amazing in their era and would be good to great big men in any other.
I think Larry is a top 5-10 all-timer in any era. And if his career were today we might be considering a new GOAT by the end of it.
#5
Kobe Bryant
Born: August 23, 1978
Years Active: 1996-2016
Height: 6'6 Weight: 212
Prior to NBA: Lower Marion High School
Position: Shooting Guard
Career Stats: 25 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1.4 spg, .5 bpg, .447 fgp, .329 3pp, .837 ftp
18x All-Star, 11x All-NBA 1st Team, 9x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, 2x NBA Scoring Champion, 5x NBA Champion, 2x Finals MVP, 1x NBA MVP, HoF
Points: 208
Votes: 14
Ranked Highest by: Chris Scott, hithit, Tyson (2nd)
*Throws anything into anything else*
KOBE!
Wow much lower than I thought.
If the top 4 was not MJ, KAJ, Magic and LeBron the list really wouldn't be accurate. I would have also put Kobe behind Wilt and Russell too. But anywhere after that seems very fair.
Took me a while to come around to Kobe, most likely because of his whole 'cover band' style. I was a young Jordan admirer and this kid wasn't wowing me as merely his imitator. But as time wore on and his consistency continued and his own brand of killer instinct bore through and we learned more about him on a human level, and particularly after he did it more his way for the latter two titles.. well fuck, I definitely started to warm up.
I had him number seven. All-time talent, fantastic story, and terrific dude.
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