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Thread: The Rajah Debates Round 1 - #5 Rip vs. #12 Nash Diesel - CLOSED!

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    The Rajah Debates Round 1 - #5 Rip vs. #12 Nash Diesel - CLOSED!

    VS.

    Welcome to the Rajahdome, where these brave competitors will now begin their debate. But before we begin, please take a second to review the rules. If you disobey them, then I will edit or even delete your post, requiring you to start over from scratch. Be warned.



    - All debates will be comprised of 3 posts by each competitor, each with a word cap of 250 words.

    - You have only 72 hours to complete all three posts. If you don't finish then that is on you.

    - Those 6 posts must be staggered. You can't make your next post until the other debator has had their turn.

    - Pictures, gifs and videos can be used in literally unlimited amounts to support your point.

    - No editing of posts is allowed, and if you go second, your first post must NOT be a rebuttal of the other person's first post as that would grant an unfair advantage.

    - Order will be determined by a coin flip just before the debate begins.

    - The winner will be chosen equally from 4 sources. 2 judges, a reader write in vote, and a poll which will be posted on the main page along with your debates which will allow the greater Rajah audience to vote on your words.



    And now it's time for our next debate topic!


    The Monday Night Wars were an electric time in wrestling history. Never before, and almost certainly never again, did so many people jump ship from company to company, seeking more money and better opportunities. Each company, WWF, WCW and ECW, fought with the others with every scrap of influence that they could to stockpile the most talent possible in this wild free agent arms race. Some of these defectors made enormous impacts that still reverberate through the years, and some came and went with all the significance of a mildly scented fart. But today, we're looking at those who made the biggest impact, as I ask you to answer the question...


    WHAT FREE AGENT SIGNING MADE THE BIGGEST IMPACT DURING THE MONDAY NIGHT WARS?

    Note: Hulk Hogan is not an option, as we're establishing the Monday Night Wars as beginning with the debut of WCW Monday Nitro and ending with the sale of WCW to WWE.



    The Coin Flip Indicates That Nash Diesel Will Go First!

  2. #2
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Arguably the greatest period of time for pro wrestling. WCW lead by Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair were trying to find their place once again in North America, trying to get out of the shadows of a giant in the industry during a time where pro wrestling wasn't exactly on the top of everyone's must see list. They had arguably the better wrestling, but Nitro was still trailing behind the established WWF Raw. Uncle Eric had Daddy's checkbook ready to rock and with the lure of less dates with guaranteed money, it made perfect sense for this man to move on and see if he could help turn around another company during a time where pro wrestling was struggling.



    The Nitro where the wrestling world basically changed overnight was spearheaded by this man in one of the greatest "returns" of all time.



    From this point on, WCW's momentum kept growing, averaging over a million more viewers each week and counting compared to their rival Monday Night Raw. As the nWo's popularity grew, so did the overall appeal of pro wrestling, again, spearheaded by Scott Hall's signing to WCW. Hey yo....This was when the war truly started.

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    83% Insane Rip's Avatar
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    So, what won the war?

    What did Raw have that WCW didn't?

    One thing stands out.

    A free agent picked up from a little backstreet promotion run by a crook with a ponytail, a wrestler tossed aside by WCW as being too injury prone, lacking in charisma, nothing special.

    A free agent who went to ECW and completed his own talent jigsaw, who then joined the Raw roster as a midcard talent, until fate stepped in catapulting him into the position from where he would become the greatest talent of his generation.

    The Monday Night Wars were won by Attitude, by brave decisions and a viewing public that bought into the new direction, one man exemplifies that, one man can be used as a metaphor for the whole period, going from sparkle and flash, seeing the change and riding the wave, seizing the opportunity when it was presented with both hands…

    Dear reader it gives me great pleasure to give you the answer, the only answer that truely stacks up to examination, Steve Austin..
    Last edited by Rip; September 20th, 2017 at 4:50 PM.

  4. #4
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    The problem here is that Stone Cold would not have even had the chance to get that spot without WCW forcing Vince's hand. If Scott Hall stays in the WWF for the next 3-5 years, there's no revival of WCW, there's no revival of pro wrestling to the level it reached during this time period. There's no "Curtain Call" to fuck Hunter which completely derails Stone Cold's path. One of the biggest moments that truly set the wheels in motion for Austin was the post-KOTR Austin 3:16 speech. Imagine a world where there are no black and white Austin 3:16 shirts.

    Vince was already negative toward Austin, didn't really see him as anything but a midcarder who shouldn't even talk.

    As sad as it is to say, The Klik were not going down without a fight and Austin was not going to be able to convince anyone that he should be booked over the likes of top tier draws like Razor Ramon based on his work as Stunning Steve and what little glimmer of the future we got a taste of during the Savio feud. This was a period where Vince was pretty comfortable using who he had at the top and didn't seem to really want to risk much. Once the ratings started to go in WCW's favor in considerable, consistent fashion, THEN Vince was willing to look around and go "Ok, who do we even have to put in this spots?"

  5. #5
    83% Insane Rip's Avatar
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    Can I, just for a moment, pause to point out my opponents name, Nash Diesel, all got that?

    May I now point out the irony of this posters last entry into this debate?

    Without Scott Hall the ‘curtain call’ incident would STILL have taken place due to Kevin Nash, sadly Hall was largely irrelevant to that piece of history as his large friend would have still provided the impetus to events.

    I would however like to thank my opponent for acknowledging the massive impact Austin had not only on the Monday Night Wars, but on wrestling as a whole, as he said ‘imagine a world without the black and white 3:16 shirts’ put simply, it is unimaginable. The wrestling world has been indelibly marked by the image of Austin 3:16, to suggest that his impact is of less significance than Halls is simply laughable, let's not forget that a handful of months before he jumped ship Hall had been banned from WWE(F) for drug abuse, his stock was greatly damaged and by his own admission he was looking for a reduced schedule, he gives this as the primary reason for his switch to WCW - they offered him a less intense work schedule.

    Austin was the flag bearer for the Attitude Era, the Attitude Era won the Monday Night Wars, its that simple.

    My opponents choice was a small, largely unimportant, cog in the machine, whereas my choice drove the machine.

  6. #6
    What the fucks up Dennys! Nash Diesel's Avatar
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    Hall staying with the WWF is a domino effect. Without the rise of the NWO, we don’t see the rise of The Rock, we don’t see the creation of DX, we don’t see Mr. McMahon who was no doubt inspired by the original heel authority figure Mr. Bischoff. Bret Hart doesn’t see the lure of leaving the WWF because WCW doesn’t flourish. All of these things affect Stone Cold and his impact on the company. No Rock feud, no Mike Tyson, no legendary Mr. McMahon feud. No Bret Hart feud to put him on the map because Vince still has top tier players like Razor and Diesel that he no doubt would still be pushing at this moment because there was no reason not to. WCW wouldn’t be a threat at all because they weren’t until Scott Hall made the jump.

    There is no NWO idea coming to fruition as the idea is fueled by Hall being available.
    Austin trying to play a role Diesel started doing might not work out as well as it did without Nash there, let’s not forget who first flipped someone off and didn’t care if you liked what he did or not and if you supported him, he had love for you.

    Scott Hall’s arrival in WCW changed the business and it allowed Austin to make the impact he did. You’d be a fool to discredit what Austin accomplished but an even bigger fool to think it would have happened without Hall joining WCW.

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    83% Insane Rip's Avatar
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    Well dear Reader we have reached the end of our first debate together, our options;


    Scott Hall. Quite simply Scott Hall did not even have the biggest impact of the members of his own tag team, every point raised by my opponent in favour of Hall is in reality a nod to his more famous partner, Kevin Nash. My opponents last post drives this home, how little of his summation is impact by Hall on the Wars? He discusses Nash, the nWo, the Rock, Hart, don't get me wrong I love Hall, but my opponent proves the point in his last post that as an individual his impact was, simply, minimal.


    Steve Austin. The birth of Austin 3:16 was a monumental moment in the business, not just in relation to the Wars but in the entire business itself, I'd argue no one wrestler has changed the face of the industry as much as Austin. The Raw victory was built on the change in style, on the renewed connection to the fan base, the swell of support from the new breed of fan, that stood on the broad shoulders of one man, Steve Austin.

    WCW lost because they invested in established names at the end of their careers looking to defend their place, like Hall.

    Raw won because they backed younger, hungrier names that would go on to revolutionise the business, like Austin.

    Hall had minimal impact on a losing side, Austin had long lasting global impact on the winning side.

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    THIS DEBATE IS CLOSED!

    VOTING MAY NOW BEGIN!

    Votes without an explanation will not be counted.

  9. #9
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    Rip

    I think anyone would have struggled to argue against Austin in this debate, Rip played this one quite shrewdly as Austin just met the parameters within the timeline when he joined WWF. Nash did his best trying to argue that Austin wouldn't have happened without Hall but besides the initial opening shot, Hall had little overall impact the way Austin did plus Nash did more throughout the piece. Had Nash chose Austin first which he admitted he almost did in the discussion thread, this may have been a different outcome.

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    I am going Nash Diesel here.

    The problem here is that Stone Cold would not have even had the chance to get that spot without WCW forcing Vince's hand. If Scott Hall stays in the WWF for the next 3-5 years, there's no revival of WCW, there's no revival of pro wrestling to the level it reached during this time period. There's no "Curtain Call" to fuck Hunter which completely derails Stone Cold's path. One of the biggest moments that truly set the wheels in motion for Austin was the post-KOTR Austin 3:16 speech. Imagine a world where there are no black and white Austin 3:16 shirts.
    I think that post won it for him. Basically stating how Hall caused the ripple effect. Would Austin even be the Austin we ended up seeing in 1997 if not for Hall debuting on Nitro. Rip mentioning how Nash would have been able to debut with the same results didn't convince me.

    I think this was the death blow.
    Vince was already negative toward Austin, didn't really see him as anything but a midcarder who shouldn't even talk.

    As sad as it is to say, The Klik were not going down without a fight and Austin was not going to be able to convince anyone that he should be booked over the likes of top tier draws like Razor Ramon based on his work as Stunning Steve and what little glimmer of the future we got a taste of during the Savio feud.
    Last edited by PurePlayer; September 21st, 2017 at 12:00 PM.

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    This is almost like a "Chicken or the egg" argument, only you know the chicken came first, but someone's arguing the egg is more important. ND came out of the gate with a smash hit. Everyone remembers that shocking moment Hall walked through the WCW crowd towards the ring, whether you experienced that beginning or have seen it through countless replays and video tributes. That moment single-handedly spearheaded the explosion of the Attitude Era, and most relevantly, the Monday Night Wars.

    Rip comes back with the most logical, and most diabolical choice with Steve Austin, the single-handedly greatest result of the Monday Night Wars. And we all know what that means.

    Rip nailed his point with Austin, and it was easy to make. Steve Austin is the most "cool" superstar of wrestling history. Hogan was a hero. Austin was the toughest SOB on the planet. Hogan had all the children and families wearing his shirts. Austin had everyone wearing his shirts. One of the biggest drawing, biggest merch-selling wrestlers ever during the most lucrative era. You could almost give the victory from him on post one.

    Nash, however, focused on the single greatest strength of his argument, which was the actual debut following Hall's signing. That moment alone has the greatest impact in the Monday Night Wars, as it was the first shot, and it was a massive one. It was the beginning of the nWo, leaving people with so much uncertainty as to what would happen next in the wrestling world through a WCW lens, until the explosion in interest forced WWE to try something new. And ND was strong in pointing out that had Hall not left, WWF would have seen no reason to push the younger untested guys and we wouldn't have seen nearly as impactful a rise of Austin as he did in response to WCW's storylines - which were a result of Hall's signing.

    Rip tried to shut this down by saying some guys would still leave, but he never once alluded to the idea that the nWo storyline could have still happened with other key signings, something that could have made his argument stronger. And Rip himself strengthened what made ND's point immense: ND spent more time mentioning all the other superstars that had been affected by Hall's signing, whereas Rip hardly mentinoned any one other than the debate picks. Outside of when trying to counter ND, of course.

    It was a risky game, but ND hammered his point home from Post Two and Rip, while making very salient points, didn't have the proper counters to go against ND's argument.

    My pick is Nash Diesel.

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    RIP. Yes, Scott Hall being on Nitro was a OMG moment on top of starting NWO. Yet, he was forgotten the moment Hogan got the spotlight. RIP did a great job of stating while we think the Monday Night War pretty much starts with Bischoff getting power. RIP bring up Austin's journey is the Monday Night War is correct. It would have been easy to say the Outsiders, Jericho or even the Radicals instead he took the harder course of defending a bit of a WTF choice. To me, RIP won this the moment he choose Austin and defended why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho666Soldier View Post
    This is almost like a "Chicken or the egg" argument, only you know the chicken came first, but someone's arguing the egg is more important. ND came out of the gate with a smash hit. Everyone remembers that shocking moment Hall walked through the WCW crowd towards the ring, whether you experienced that beginning or have seen it through countless replays and video tributes. That moment single-handedly spearheaded the explosion of the Attitude Era, and most relevantly, the Monday Night Wars.

    Rip comes back with the most logical, and most diabolical choice with Steve Austin, the single-handedly greatest result of the Monday Night Wars. And we all know what that means.

    Rip nailed his point with Austin, and it was easy to make. Steve Austin is the most "cool" superstar of wrestling history. Hogan was a hero. Austin was the toughest SOB on the planet. Hogan had all the children and families wearing his shirts. Austin had everyone wearing his shirts. One of the biggest drawing, biggest merch-selling wrestlers ever during the most lucrative era. You could almost give the victory from him on post one.

    Nash, however, focused on the single greatest strength of his argument, which was the actual debut following Hall's signing. That moment alone has the greatest impact in the Monday Night Wars, as it was the first shot, and it was a massive one. It was the beginning of the nWo, leaving people with so much uncertainty as to what would happen next in the wrestling world through a WCW lens, until the explosion in interest forced WWE to try something new. And ND was strong in pointing out that had Hall not left, WWF would have seen no reason to push the younger untested guys and we wouldn't have seen nearly as impactful a rise of Austin as he did in response to WCW's storylines - which were a result of Hall's signing.

    Rip tried to shut this down by saying some guys would still leave, but he never once alluded to the idea that the nWo storyline could have still happened with other key signings, something that could have made his argument stronger. And Rip himself strengthened what made ND's point immense: ND spent more time mentioning all the other superstars that had been affected by Hall's signing, whereas Rip hardly mentinoned any one other than the debate picks. Outside of when trying to counter ND, of course.

    It was a risky game, but ND hammered his point home from Post Two and Rip, while making very salient points, didn't have the proper counters to go against ND's argument.

    My pick is Nash Diesel.
    Am I allowed to just copy and paste this and place my vote for ND, because this pretty much sums up exactly the way I felt? Nash killed it explaining the domino effect Hall had on WCW and the next couple of years.

    NASH DIESEL.

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    I hate to say Rip.. but Nash basically picked the ball up with post #1...

    "the wrestling world basically changed overnight "...

    RIP TRIED to counter with the "what won the Monday Night War" statement, but again, that's not what the question is. If WCW had not signed Hall to start with, would there have been a Monday Night War.... So without Hall signing to WCW, as Nash pointed out... maybe no Rock, maybe no DX, definitely no SCSA..

    And Rip in the process voided part of his own argument (albeit obviously unintentionally) as well with this line:

    Raw won because they backed younger, hungrier names that would go on to revolutionise the business, like Austin.
    Basically Rip's admitting that it wasn't just Austin, but "names" (plural) that was the deciding factor on the WWE side of the Monday Night Wars... Pair that up with Nash's remark about Vince's lack of faith in Austin... and this makes this one an easy vote:

    Sorry Rip, but it's gotta go to Nash Diesel.

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    Nash Diesel.

    If the question was who was the biggest star then RIP would have won easily.

    But ND nailed it that Hall turning up at WCW changed everything.

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    Nash Diesel

    As stated it was not about the biggest star. Heck, Foley was a larger factor considering he was the final nail in the coffin than Austin was considering the big rating swap after the spoiler. No Hall, no attitude era and we would still have random jobber matches on Raw.

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    Turning back time Kdestiny's Avatar
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    I gotta lean towards Rip here.

    Both very good choices and well debated, but Rip gets the edge with pointing out that a lot of this still could've happened without Hall. Initially his impact was felt for sure, but Rip countered that fairly well. I gotta go with him.

  18. #18
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    Nash Diesel

    I feel like Rip did his homework and no doubt had a great choice but I have to agree with the point of Vince never really saw Austin as anything more than a "mechanic" in the ring. Austin was the biggest star but the fact that Hall made the jump and opened room up in the WWF definatley had a ripple effect in the business of professional wrestling that is still felt today.

  19. #19
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    the dude who said "chicken and the egg" nailed it pretty well. i tend to fall on the side of Nash Diesel here. while rip tried to downplay his role later on in the company, nash sold me on the fact since that hall was the one who leaped, that is what helped steamroll the monday night wars into producing characters like stone cold and the rock and bringing out the mr. mcmahon 'chairman' character.

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    VOTING IS OVER!

    Rajah Forums Vote:

    Nash Diesel 8
    Rip 2

    Rajah Main Page Vote:



    Judge JP Vote:



    AND YOUR WINNER IS...

    RIP
    (2-1)

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