2017 PWI 500

[Defrost]

1. Kazuchika Okada
2. AJ Styles
3. Kevin Owens
4. Roman Reigns
5. Kenny Omega
6. Shinsuke Nakamura
7. Dean Ambrose
8. Samoa Joe
9. Bobby Roode
10. The Miz
11. Neville
12. Tetsuya Naito
13. Randy Orton
14. Adam Cole
15. Bray Wyatt
16. Seth Rollins
17. Christopher daniels
18. Bobby Lashley
19 John Cena
20. Kushida
21. Will Ospreay
22. Chris Jericho
23. Katsuyori Shibata
24. Johnny Mundo
25. Brock Lesnar
26. Zack Sabre Jr
27. Eddie Edwards
28. Finn Balor
29. Pete Dunne
30. Jinder Mahal
31. Marty Scurll
32. Dolph Ziggler
33. Cody
34. Braun Strowman
35. TJ Perkins
36. EC3
37. Alberto El Patron
38. Kyle O'Reilly
39. Hiroshi Tanahashi
40. Nick Jackson
41. Sami Zayn
42. Matt Jackson
43. Mark Haskins
44. Rusev
45. Matt Hardy
46. Ricochet
47. Yamato
48. Hiromu Takahashi
49. Baron Corbin
50. Tyler Bate


That's the top 50. Liger is in the mid 200s and remains the only guy to be on every PWI 500 list.

[PurePlayer]

What is the list based on? Appearances, title wins, skill?

[Cewsh]

Likelihood that you'll buy the issue to see why they were ranked there when you hear about it.

[PurePlayer]

zero

[Nash Diesel]

What is the list based on? Appearances, title wins, skill?

All of the above and then some. I mean, they're obviously not putting Jinder in the top 30 because of his skill. He's there because he beat Orton, AJ, etc. The funny thing is, the grading period is like August 2016-July 2017. So he really only had a good 2 months where they could really grade his work appropriately in conjunction with the other 20-30 PWI 500's. But again, the PWI list is never solid top to bottom. I hate that basically if you're on US t.v. (i.e. WWE and TNA), you pretty much wind up in the top 100. There was a year I think where WWE version of Mark Jindrak ranked higher than the IWGP champion.

[PurePlayer]

Well Jinder had from April-July. So he had 3 ppv wins Orton, a world title win, wins over AJ/Zayn/Harper/Mojo during that time. Balor really only had from April-July and August of 2016 so being the first Universal champ probably earned him a ton of points.

[PurePlayer]

Do female wrestlers not make this list? Or tag teams? You would think Usos, New Day, and Sheamus/Cesaro would make it right?

[Cewsh]

There is honestly no criteria, and this list is about the least credible thing in the entire wrestling industry, which is saying something. They have openly said that they shove Japanese and Mexican wrestlers down the list because they're afraid they won't sell any issues with them on the cover.

[BGMaverick]

It sounds like there's a lot of metrics involved or whatever they feel is appropriate. Appearances, number of title defenses, quality of feuds, quality of opponents, workrate, etc. Seems like Meltzer's ratings: good for discussion but not necessarily a end all, be all.

[PurePlayer]

It sounds like there's a lot of metrics involved or whatever they feel is appropriate. Appearances, number of title defenses, quality of feuds, quality of opponents, workrate, etc. Seems like Meltzer's ratings: good for discussion but not necessarily a end all, be all.

Makes sense why Ambrose is so high. Had the WWE and IC title. Had feuds with Styles, Miz, Corbin and tons of appearances.

[Peter Griffin]

Seeing Alberto so close to Cody seems fucking mad to me.

[BGMaverick]

Makes sense why Ambrose is so high. Had the WWE and IC title. Had feuds with Styles, Miz, Corbin and tons of appearances.

His actually sounds credible:
Won the Shield triple threat, successful defense at a big-4 PPV, won the IC title, successful defense of that belt at WM. Throw in a clean win over Cena on a Smackdown episode. Probably would have looked better if this stretched back to June of last year.

[Defrost]

Do female wrestlers not make this list? Or tag teams? You would think Usos, New Day, and Sheamus/Cesaro would make it right?

They do another female only list

[Cewsh]

And they specifically refuse to keep tag teams together because they are lazy and dumb.

[Donald]

I wonder where jack swagger ranked

[Defrost]

What is the list based on? Appearances, title wins, skill?

Based on the editors' appearance on Jim Ross' podcast I think the fact the Okada agreed to take that picture is why he it #1.

[Nash Diesel]

There is honestly no criteria, and this list is about the least credible thing in the entire wrestling industry, which is saying something. They have openly said that they shove Japanese and Mexican wrestlers down the list because they're afraid they won't sell any issues with them on the cover.

Source to that comment? Only reason I'm asking is that there was a year Mistico was #2 or 3 and they said in the publication, had he not been hurt he would have easily been #1 that year. They've also done covers in the past, like the PWI 500 2005 where Batista won and they had Kojima on the cover but they also had Raven, Cena, Batista, and someone else. And I'm not saying they never said what you said, because I can totally see that being the reason in terms of the cover and not making someone #1 because they think fans won't buy it if a WWE wrestler isn't on the cover. But I own a shit ton of these PWI 500's and there has been for a good 15 years at least a healthy number of international wrestlers in high rankings.

What I mainly buy the 500 for is to educate myself on wrestlers I don't know much about it or anything about. I had never heard of Chris Hero, CM Punk, or Homicide until the first year they were in the 500 and they were talking about these crazy hardcore matches the 3 of them were having. It made me back in the 90's really seek out the likes of Hashimoto, Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, El Samurai, Koji Kanemoto, the list goes on of Japanese wrestlers I never really knew much about outside of the 500 and maybe a sprinkle of match results because it wasn't until the turn of the century and guys like those I mentioned were either dead or getting old that they started really covering Japanese wrestling like see them do today-which isn't much but understandable when your target market isn't Japanese wrestling fans.

[Kdestiny]

Takahashi being where he is... maddening to me.

Naito is top 10 easily.

This list is pretty shit, but I'd put Okada at 1 as well

[Tainted Eclipse]

There is honestly no criteria, and this list is about the least credible thing in the entire wrestling industry, which is saying something. They have openly said that they shove Japanese and Mexican wrestlers down the list because they're afraid they won't sell any issues with them on the cover.

there's that one list, powerslam magazine is it, that explicitly tries to be a smarky workrate list but their list is always awful. that one's worse. this was is fine, decent list of wrestlers by 'prestige' from a very america-centric standpoint, while still admitting other wrestling exists. in that aspect okada winning is appropriate here, japanese wrestling has never been in the consciousness of american fans as much as now and okada is the undisputed king this year.

[lotjx]

The PWI list has always been this weird kayfabe/smark list. By doing that, it tends to suck. Its hard to argue against Okada. He has been the star in NJPW and has even come to the US to wrestle which not unheard of, it is rare. I would have chosen AJ. A year ago he beat Cena clean..fucking clean then he is the Smackdown champ and putting on amazing matches even one with Shane. However, his matches with Owens have been a bit of a mess. I think if we get the world title back on AJ or on Nakamara and we get that as the main event of Mania then I think it will be hard pressed not to name him number one. That is a lot of ifs though. I don't agree with Reigns he has been a bitch since after Mania. Same almost goes with Cena. Cena had one really good match with AJ and that's it.

[Honey_Badger]

Okada, AJ and Omega should be your top 3.

Cody bitching on Twitter about his placement.

Samoa Joe calling him out for it like a boss.

Owens is overrated.

Johnny Gargano and Ciampa should have cracked top 100.

[Peter Griffin]

Well I mean IF this were some kind of 'legit' list then Cody would have a case but it appears to mainly have been cobbled together by some senile old man (I have no idea who works for PWI)

I mean really what is Alberto doing there? He leaves the E, Works some independents in the UK went to some promotion in Mexico for a cup of coffee I think and went to GFW and became there champ, got suspended and stripped of the title, All this against the backdrop of gradually losing his fucking mind.

[Murphy]

What a massive waste of time this is. Can't believe it's still about, to be honest. In 2017, a magazine that reports on wrestling as a legit sport. I assume it still does, anyway. I bought this magazine for a while about 20 years ago. The stuff being reported on always seemed to be months and months old.

[Bluegunn]

Do female wrestlers not make this list? Or tag teams? You would think Usos, New Day, and Sheamus/Cesaro would make it right?

Women have a top 50. No tag teams as they are set as individuals on the top 500

[Nash Diesel]

This list doesn't "suck", it's just subjective. Does IMDB's top 100 list suck because you don't agree with 80% of it? Of course not. Like I was saying, I've mainly used the 500 as a directory. See who's still in the game, see who's making waves in the independents. The Year End Report/Awards issue, whatever it's called, that's another good one they do.

What a massive waste of time this is. Can't believe it's still about, to be honest. In 2017, a magazine that reports on wrestling as a legit sport. I assume it still does, anyway. I bought this magazine for a while about 20 years ago. The stuff being reported on always seemed to be months and months old.

Not a massive waste of time.

As far as the lag...You have to factor in how long it takes to put all the stories and rankings and pictures together. You send it off to press and then shipping. It can take awhile. I used to work for a company called CDS here in Des Moines, we handled subscriptions for probably 80-90% of the magazines here in the US and Canada so we'd get people calling in "bitching" about that all the time. Even mags like US Weekly, the 52 issues a year, they're still going to be a good month behind at the very least.

[Honey_Badger]

Anyone who has ever participated in a "top 25 list" on these forums calling the PWI list a major waste of time is, no offense, talking out of their ass. It's an opinionated list meant to entertain wrestling fans, much like 90% of the opinion works put out today.

[PurePlayer]

The ones complaining just seem to be huge Japanese wrestling marks and that's fine but the list isn't shit because it doesn't have the card from the Tokyo Dome in the top 10.

[Donald]

It's shit cause Braun's below Cody fucking Rhodes of all people.

[Cewsh]

The ones complaining just seem to be huge Japanese wrestling marks and that's fine but the list isn't shit because it doesn't have the card from the Tokyo Dome in the top 10.

Do you really think that's what it is?

[Honey_Badger]

I just think people like shitting on Dave Meltzer, for some odd reason. The guy has gotten paid to do what all of us would love to do for decades.

[Peter Griffin]

Fucking Meltzer writes this? I'm surprised the top 20 is NJ guys then.

[MMH]

Fucking Meltzer writes this? I'm surprised the top 20 is NJ guys then.

I reckon you have never listened to Meltzer in your life...

And unless things have changed..no he does not write it.

[Peter Griffin]

I have seen him hand out fucking 7 and half and 6 and a half stars to NJ matches and other such nonsense, He's a tool.

[Peter Griffin]

8.564593584584547 stars amazing!

[Peter Griffin]

And no I have never 'listened' to him because I am not subscribing to his bollocks.

[PurePlayer]

Do you really think that's what it is?

sure seems that way

There is honestly no criteria, and this list is about the least credible thing in the entire wrestling industry, which is saying something. They have openly said that they shove Japanese and Mexican wrestlers down the list because they're afraid they won't sell any issues with them on the cover.

[Nash Diesel]

Lists, ratings, all subjective. No reason to freak out like a black tar hooker. There is no pro wrestling bible that says thou shalt follow the 4 star match rating criteria that debuted in Memphis. If Meltzer wants to rank a match 5.7 stars oh well.

[Donald]

We should set up a Rajah ranking system on matches.

[Cewsh]

sure seems that way

Couple things.

1. That's how they've run their magazine for 30 years, and its hard to blame them since it's keeping them in business.
2. Who the fuck doesn't watch Japanese wrestling at this point? Why are you depriving yourself for no good reason?
3. Matches that happen in the Tokyo Dome are better. It's a great venue for wrestling. Sorry.

I just think people like shitting on Dave Meltzer, for some odd reason. The guy has gotten paid to do what all of us would love to do for decades.

Dude, Dave Meltzer does not write for PWI.

[Donald]

Couple things.

2. Who the fuck doesn't watch Japanese wrestling at this point? Why are you depriving yourself for no good reason?

I'm WWE through and through. WWE or nothing for me. Never gave WCW a shot, never gave TNA a shot. It's just what I like.

[Bluegunn]

You are missing a lot. Daniel Bryan and Nakamura's best stuff is outside of WWE. You will never know how good Hideo is just watching NXT

[Cewsh]

I'm WWE through and through. WWE or nothing for me. Never gave WCW a shot, never gave TNA a shot. It's just what I like.

So you've never tried anything else, but you know what you like?

[Honey_Badger]

Dude, Dave Meltzer does not write for PWI.

I know, I'm an idiot who has been hungover in bed for four days with a terrible illness. Sorry for contributing jack shit to this thread and I receive no points for my efforts.

Carry on.

[Honey_Badger]

You are missing a lot. Daniel Bryan and Nakamura's best stuff is outside of WWE. You will never know how good Hideo is just watching NXT

I'm pretty sure Donald hates Daniel Bryan.

[Nash Diesel]

I've never ate dog shit.

I've never beat a woman.

I've never shot drugs into my veins.

But I can honestly tell you that I don't like them and have no intention on seeing if I do or not.

[Donald]

Daniel Bryan is hipster scum. I'd piss on him if I could.

[Morrison]

I've never ate dog shit.

I've never beat a woman.

I've never shot drugs into my veins.

But I can honestly tell you that I don't like them and have no intention on seeing if I do or not.

ffs this is not an argument. these things are not similar.

say you like blueberry muffins. you have only ever had the muffins of one brand at the store. you already know you like blueberry muffins, so how do you know you wouldnt enjoy a different brand of blueberry muffins just as much, if not more?

[Nash Diesel]

ffs this is not an argument. these things are not similar.

say you like blueberry muffins. you have only ever had the muffins of one brand at the store. you already know you like blueberry muffins, so how do you know you wouldnt enjoy a different brand of blueberry muffins just as much, if not more?

It's more like going to Mexico and not wanting to drink the water or eat the food even though you drink water and eat food.

[Peter Griffin]

So you've never tried anything else, but you know what you like?

There is a certain esteemed poster around here who flat out refuses to watch NXT because of his insane vendetta against Hunter.

[lotjx]

There is a certain esteemed poster around here who flat out refuses to watch NXT because of his insane vendetta against Hunter.

Sadly, I get that.

[Morrison]

It's more like going to Mexico and not wanting to drink the water or eat the food even though you drink water and eat food.

no, it's not.

[Jordo]

More about muffins please

[Nash Diesel]

no, it's not.

Yes, it is. How is it not? You're talking about how someone might like a different brand of blueberry muffins more than another brand. I'm telling you some people might like one source of drinking water and food and not give the other a chance because they know better. Donald might think it's a waste of his time to even tease the idea of wrestling that he's obviously heard about that doesn't do anything to make him want to try it. Just like I know that, going by 99% of the people I know who have gone to or live in Mexico, they don't recommend drinking the water or eating the food. You might as well just do shots and die.

[Morrison]

Yes, it is. How is it not? You're talking about how someone might like a different brand of blueberry muffins more than another brand. I'm telling you some people might like one source of drinking water and food and not give the other a chance because they know better. Donald might think it's a waste of his time to even tease the idea of wrestling that he's obviously heard about that doesn't do anything to make him want to try it. Just like I know that, going by 99% of the people I know who have gone to or live in Mexico, they don't recommend drinking the water or eating the food. You might as well just do shots and die.

you are a fucking insane person.

[Sasori]

More about muffins please

This should be a Wilfred's Debate

[Andy]

There's nothing wrong with not liking Japanese wrestling. Last time I watched I saw some bloke shoot headbutt himself into a coma then get lauded as a hero and a good worker. No thank you.

[Morrison]

There's nothing wrong with not liking Japanese wrestling. Last time I watched I saw some bloke shoot headbutt himself into a coma then get lauded as a hero and a good worker. No thank you.

that was one spot in one match from one guy.

[Honey_Badger]

Yeah, pretty small sample size. It's difficult to dislike something based on an isolated incident. The match itself was pretty awesome.

[Kdestiny]

that was one spot in one match from one guy.

Yeah, it was one spot in a fantastic match in what has been a fantastic year for Okada.

Japan isn't just about strong style. Letting that one incident define Japanese wrestling is pretty silly.

[Morrison]

especially when it is only really shibata who does shit like that. there's plenty of stiff wrestlers but shibata is in a class of his own with some of his shit.

[Cewsh]

Fucks sake people. And you call me contrary.

[Tainted Eclipse]

that was one spot in one match from one guy.

it was the best spot in the best match of the year

[Defrost]

it was the best spot in the best match of the year

This is true

[Matthew]

you guys do realize you are trying to question the viewership of a poster who regularly just posts bullshit to entertain himself and can't really back himself up on much, right?

in Andy's case, though, i have heard of people not liking NJPW due to the stiffness of it, and that it is not dictated to them much as an audience in the U.S.. plus, i think Andy has watched more than just that one clip, although the statement he made in here is pretty dumb if it is just that one spot he ever watched. i can just understand how the overall product can not be someone's cup of tea. especially if they are just used to what the big company (WWE) conditioned them to.

the muffin analogy was correct. the water/mexico one is shitty (no pun intended), unless the water drinker does not know the very common knowledge on what the mexican water will do to the body. c'mon now.

[Cewsh]

Sometimes you try a new brand of muffins and you don't like them. No problem there. Declaring that all other brands are garbage without trying them is just silly.

[mth]

I don't watch it but I bet Japanese wrestling is pretty awesome and a lot of us WWE/American-wrestling-centric folks are missing out on some good shit.

[Morrison]

it was the best spot in the best match of the year

This is true

im in agreement here. well, i havent watched the match yet, but that is one of the most badass spots ive ever seen and have shown it to a handful of people.

[Morrison]

you guys do realize you are trying to question the viewership of a poster who regularly just posts bullshit to entertain himself and can't really back himself up on much, right?

in Andy's case, though, i have heard of people not liking NJPW due to the stiffness of it, and that it is not dictated to them much as an audience in the U.S.. plus, i think Andy has watched more than just that one clip, although the statement he made in here is pretty dumb if it is just that one spot he ever watched. i can just understand how the overall product can not be someone's cup of tea. especially if they are just used to what the big company (WWE) conditioned them to.

the muffin analogy was correct. the water/mexico one is shitty (no pun intended), unless the water drinker does not know the very common knowledge on what the mexican water will do to the body. c'mon now.

i know andy has watched a bunch of matches from new japan outside of that shibata/okada match, so at least he's informed. i think his perspective on wrestling is shallow and boring, but at least he saw the other side.

[Morrison]

I don't watch it but I bet Japanese wrestling is pretty awesome and a lot of us WWE/American-wrestling-centric folks are missing out on some good shit.

essentially, this. i've kept up with new japan for a couple years now, but this if the first year where i've watched way more njpw than wwe. it's an incredibly exciting product right now, and presented in a very legitimate way. im a big wwe supporter and defender, but the tedious melodrama of a lot of their writing just cant compare to the basic structure of good new japan feuds right now.

[Beer-Belly]

No one should care about this list.

[Peter Griffin]

Sometimes you try a new brand of muffins and you don't like them. No problem there. Declaring that all other brands are garbage without trying them is just silly.

There is a certain esteemed poster around here who flat out refuses to watch NXT because of his insane vendetta against Hunter.

.

[OD50]

You guys should sit down and try some new brands of muffins together.

[Donald]

No, I don't always post bullshit to entertain myself. I don't venture from my comfort zone. Some may see that as a bad thing, some may be ok with it. I like what I like, and I'm perfectly happy.

[Nash Diesel]

you guys do realize you are trying to question the viewership of a poster who regularly just posts bullshit to entertain himself and can't really back himself up on much, right?

in Andy's case, though, i have heard of people not liking NJPW due to the stiffness of it, and that it is not dictated to them much as an audience in the U.S.. plus, i think Andy has watched more than just that one clip, although the statement he made in here is pretty dumb if it is just that one spot he ever watched. i can just understand how the overall product can not be someone's cup of tea. especially if they are just used to what the big company (WWE) conditioned them to.

the muffin analogy was correct. the water/mexico one is shitty (no pun intended), unless the water drinker does not know the very common knowledge on what the mexican water will do to the body. c'mon now.

I always assumed you were just here for your own self-entertainment in general. Donald is a good dude, he wasn't slighting non-WWE promotions, get off his nuts for not being like you nerd.

The reason the analogy works is because Donald isn't a dumb fuck, he's aware of the style, so maybe just the idea turns him off. Tony Schiavone or Bruce Prichard, one of them said several times they've never watched an episode of ECW because they just aren't into that style. Even though they had that kind of hardcore wrestling on their own show, they were basically forced to watch it. So again, he's not completely oblivious to New Japan he just doesn't give a shit about it.

OH MY GOD SOMEONE DOESN'T SWING OFF THE NUTS OF NAITO, KENNY OMEGA, EVIL, ETC.!! It's great wrestling for sure but they're not going to be sad if Donald doesn't ever watch their product unless Strowman goes over there.

[Cewsh]

.

Well yeah, Pete. That's a stupid thing to do too and I mock him for it all the time. What's your point?

I always assumed you were just here for your own self-entertainment in general. Donald is a good dude, he wasn't slighting non-WWE promotions, get off his nuts for not being like you nerd.

The reason the analogy works is because Donald isn't a dumb fuck, he's aware of the style, so maybe just the idea turns him off. Tony Schiavone or Bruce Prichard, one of them said several times they've never watched an episode of ECW because they just aren't into that style. Even though they had that kind of hardcore wrestling on their own show, they were basically forced to watch it. So again, he's not completely oblivious to New Japan he just doesn't give a shit about it.

OH MY GOD SOMEONE DOESN'T SWING OFF THE NUTS OF NAITO, KENNY OMEGA, EVIL, ETC.!! It's great wrestling for sure but they're not going to be sad if Donald doesn't ever watch their product unless Strowman goes over there.

We just said that that was totally fine. That's not what we're talking about.

[Andy]

Of course the Shibata thing was one spot and of course I've seen more than that. My point is that, while I don't begrudge anyone enjoying something, it's not like the people who don't watch it are being stupid or really missing out.

My view is that what the likes of Shibata and Ishii do isn't wrestling. I don't find it entertaining to watch guys legit beat the shit out of eachother. But some people do, that's fine. It's just not my cup of tea. So I don't feel like I'm missing out.

[Andy]

Having said that, I do begrudge people thinking that particular spot was something to be celebrated. It's one of the most stupid and dangerous things I've ever seen and by definition it just isn't professional wrestling. If you need to headbutt yourself into a coma to put over a story, you're doing it wrong.

[Nash Diesel]

We just said that that was totally fine. That's not what we're talking about.

What's the "we" talk though? The entire post you quoted wasn't even directed toward you, at all, which is why I didn't quote your comments. They didn't slight Donald for not being into Japanese wrestling like our resident joy bringer tends to constantly do. without using the shift key.

Having said that, I do begrudge people thinking that particular spot was something to be celebrated. It's one of the most stupid and dangerous things I've ever seen and by definition it just isn't professional wrestling. If you need to headbutt yourself into a coma to put over a story, you're doing it wrong.

[Peter Griffin]

Well yeah, Pete. That's a stupid thing to do too and I mock him for it all the time. What's your point?

Mock him more

[Matthew]

I always assumed you were just here for your own self-entertainment in general. Donald is a good dude, he wasn't slighting non-WWE promotions, get off his nuts for not being like you nerd.

The reason the analogy works is because Donald isn't a dumb fuck, he's aware of the style, so maybe just the idea turns him off. Tony Schiavone or Bruce Prichard, one of them said several times they've never watched an episode of ECW because they just aren't into that style. Even though they had that kind of hardcore wrestling on their own show, they were basically forced to watch it. So again, he's not completely oblivious to New Japan he just doesn't give a shit about it.

OH MY GOD SOMEONE DOESN'T SWING OFF THE NUTS OF NAITO, KENNY OMEGA, EVIL, ETC.!! It's great wrestling for sure but they're not going to be sad if Donald doesn't ever watch their product unless Strowman goes over there.

i don't care if someone likes or dislikes the product. dude has a history of just posting shit just for attention. that is how i saw it here.

like i said, i can understand people wanting to be in their comfort zone and not leaving. i am sorry i thought your analogy was inferior. i see it, though.