Had a feeling it would've been used in Japan first.
Had a feeling it would've been used in Japan first.
I was just thinking that although the wrestling might not have been as good back in the 'Golden Era' (aka Hulkamania Period as I always called it), the storylines and vignettes were so damned funny, compelling at times and entertaining as a rule that it more than made up for the bad matches - which of course, we did not know how bad they were compared to today, just compared to say, Jimmy Crocket Promotions and maybe World Class in Texas. Those Von Erich Boys were wild for their day lol.
I think the matches were just more realistic back then, rather than the spotfests we see today. Guys had their signature moves, but they seemed to make it seem so seamless in the ring. Now you see guys inching over to spot they need to be in.
I liked that they saved the pin for a big match or occaision back then, yes, too much, but nowadays, everybody's shoulders go down at the drop of a signature move - or not, and each week..There's no rhyme or reason to the way wrestlers shoulders stay on the mat or come off these daze...
So ending 1997 into 1998. The Owen Hart angle was hot, just poor timing, as Austin was being prepped for the title via the Royal Rumble. I really think instead of the Undertaker casket match they should have Owen vs. Shawn. It was hot when Owen jumped Shawn from behind after the main event of Degeneration X. They did give Owen a title shot on RAW, but that was originally supposed to be Owen vs. Triple H for the European title. HHH injured his knee at a house show in Hamilton just before that RAW. I have a feeling that Vince didn't trust having Owen as champion because of what he just went through with Bret.
This is how someone goes over strong and the guy that loses isn't "buried" but rather is bigger in defeat. Why is it so hard these days?
Prichard has ruined my brain.
Im just imagining these two rummaging through the Box O Gimmicks.
I don't know. I think there are several moments over the years that we could point to. Daniel Bryan getting pinned in 18 seconds at Mania. Or if someone has a killer match. Think of those matches where Owens beat Zayn. Zayn would get a standing ovation.Originally Posted by stylepoints
This is how someone goes over strong and the guy that loses isn't "buried" but rather is bigger in defeat. Why is it so hard these days?
Really the only guy you have to worry about having this happen is John Cena. A lot of times it takes a good 6-12 months to recover from that loss lol.
Sure, never really meant to focus on taking a shot at the current product. Just kind of happened. Kamala and Taylor here, what a match done right. It's a thing of beauty in my eyes.
Right on. I feel that there are a lot of examples where people have came out of a loss looking stronger than when they came in. Usually it happens when either A-they lose to a gigantic name and look good in defeat or B-they just have a stellar match and you maybe didn't know they were that good or what idk....I remember when Sandow lost to Cena, he came out of that match looking better than going in...but apparently I was the only one who thought so as shortly after he was doing his weird gimmick routine of impersonating police officers and construction workers.
Is that a rib Rancid?
Love the Prichard and Conrad stuff.
Last edited by Jarrod1983; February 10th, 2017 at 12:30 AM.
I promise it was not a rib. I don't know how many times I have to say it...not a rib.
I would have loved that, but they kinda had to do the burning casket angle with Kane to setup Taker/Kane at WrestleMania. Owen/HBK would have been intense and it would have allowed the Undertaker to be in the Rumble. Austin and Taker as the final two in that match would have been bonkers. I'll always have a soft spot for that Rumble match because I'm such a Stone Cold fanboy, but it really needed another big star in there to make the ending less obvious.
I don' the seem to recall it that way.
We were watching and knew exactly what was going on.
If Owen and Shawn did happen I reckon it could had been a huge match. Shawn might even be dead today, and Owen might still be alive.
Magnificent Muraco used the tombstone as his finisher in the WWF from like 1984 or something. They just called it inverted or reverse piledriver at the time though. Similarly Ronnie Garvin and I think Terry Taylor used the sharpshooter in the WWF years before Bret. Yes, I know about Riki Chosu inventing it..
I think from what I've read later on is that most people believed Mr Fuji turned face instead of PoP turning heel. You can see the crowd clearly is cheering when the Powers of Pain put Fuji on their shoulders after they win and seem very confused when Demolition do the post-match run in. I was 12 when I watched that match in '88 and I can't honestly remember what I thought. I'd like to think I understood that it was a double turn but I'm not sure.
I've been laying around all week watching the old Main Events and just threw on Wrestlemania Five and Fuji is already turned, in a three vs two handicapped match with PoP
So, I am going to go back to watch the Rumble and report back to you
Do you recall it yourself? I sure don't.
As I said above, been watching SNME all week and I have seen Muraco, piledrivers by tons of guys, but not one word about inverted piledrivers.
Yes I do. Might have been called reverse piledriver as well. Look for Don Muraco vs. Tim Patterson, Superstars of Wrestling episode from, I guess fall of 1987.
/Nope wrong match, went into my archives and it was not called inverted/reverse in that match.
Last edited by OD50; February 18th, 2017 at 5:52 PM.
Don Muraco was using the Tombstone Piledriver before he even came into the WWF. When he was working territories before New York, he called it the "Hawaiian Hammer".
Muraco was certainly using the tombstone.
Taylor did indeed use the sharpshooter, when he was the Rooster he called it the Cock of the Walk.
Not that he used it much...
My memory is that it was Heel vs. Heel going into the match and everyone was confused. They used Fuji to "turn them face" during the match. I just remember thinking they were road warrior rip-off mega heels in NWA, so that was always how I viewed them. I think WWF actually used them better than NWA ever did.
I don't think they ever got a clean win against LOD in NWA, which should have happened.
No, not even in the six man tag team championship with Ivan Koloff vs The Road Warriors and Dusty
Now onto the highly debated double turn...
I found it; Survivor Series 88. It's actually really quite clear and well done, Jesse is on things to make sure to alert the viewers to beware, then explains things in the replay..
Fuji pulls the ropes, Smash goes through, Axe gets in Fuji's face, they push each other...Fuji wacks Axe with cane after Axe turns his back..Smash pushes Fuji into Axe who body slams Fuji on floor..
Fuji ends up with PoP... Immediately interferes in match to give PoP win to show it was premeditated plan and he is now PoP's manager..
In fact, afterwards they do a promo explaining their actions..
'Demolition got to big for their britches'
There really isn't much left to the imagination but our memories
The fact that heels turning heel on heels wasn't very common probably added to peoples confusing. I can think of Sheik, Volkoff and Blassie walking out on George Steele (RIP) and Valentine, Bravo and Johnny V walking out on Beefcake at WrestleMania III, those weren't exactly "turning heel on.." though.
I think the point here was that the crowd in the Richfield Coliseum was confused, not if the angle was done good or bad, those peeps didn't have Jesse explaining thing either. Crowd clearly cheered Fuji and the PoP when they won and were confused when Demolition jumped them after the match.
I personally think this was fucked up by everyone involved particularly Fuji. It looked like a mistake to an innocent kid like me. Then this big burly cunt tries to fuck up an old man and the good guys help the old codger out.
He played to the crowd who were cheering him on. Dickhead Fuji.
30 years ago today! Taped on 3/21/87 in the JLA, Detroit, MI:
In some ways the go home show for WrestleMania III.
Sorry you guys didn't understand wrestling at 12...
It was well done; check it out again...
I just saw that Battle Royal before WM 3.
They were huge back then because they were so rare. Even more rare for Andre to not win.
He was really shot after WM3 and relegated to choking people as his only move.
Of course, his head butt on The Genius in this battle royal splits his head open with blood everywhere.....
It wasn't well done because the crowd cheered the heels.
Check it out again...
No need.
I just watched the entire match.
Now onto Wrestlemania Six...
Hulk Hogan gets Warrior in a
hold...
Gorilla Monsoon with the call of the action:
"That's a front face lock the Hulkster has him in, Jess. That's a devistating manuver."
"Indeed" Jessie the Body replies "Just ask Richard Belzer"
Ventura is on top form in that match, particularly in the build-up as he goes into detail about how split the crowd is, really helps to give it that big fight feel. Arguably he goes into too much detail, at one point he decides it's worth pointing out that "sign-wise it's about 50/50"
Gorilla and Jesse were an underrated commentary team.
Perhaps by those who missed them at the time but highly loved by those who were there.
They were truly the voice of the era back then.
The crowd cheered the heels. Do you agree?
Just rewatched it.
Big cheer when Demolition get counted out
Shock noise at Demolition powerslamming Fuji
Big cheer when Powers of Pain win
Loud boos when Demolition batter Powers of Pain after the match
Hmmm.
I enjoy watching Kevin Owens' great grandfather wrestling back in the day.
That would be "The Cheese" with Bustoff, right?
The Cheese always hits me like that too.
Sounds pretty much as I remember it.
And Jesse/Gorilla were amazing, aalmost up there with Brain/Gorilla.
Jesse/Vince were an amazing team. I know Vince as a commentator has his critics, but I loved his catchphrases.
"Whatamaneuver!" "One, two he got him nooooo!"
And Jesse/Gorilla were amazing too. Jesse was a great heel foil, not quite Heenan but he was close.
Last edited by Badger; February 26th, 2017 at 4:41 PM.
McMahon was really good together with Ventura, part of that is because Jesse kept him in check I believe. I've always had this feeling that Gorilla Monsoon and Jesse Ventura are two of the very few McMahon truly respected in the WWF.
I think I've seen McMahon and Gorilla do commentary just once and it was pretty
awful, they both kind of stepped on the others role so to speak. Or like having two left shoes, or something.. It was like a game of tennis where both players are on the same side of the net..
Last edited by OD50; February 27th, 2017 at 6:46 AM.
I always hated Vince on commentary. He had a great voice though.
I think he was pretty good in the 80's, especially when he was paired with Jesse Ventura. He was soo much more laid back then. If you watch him in the 90's during the early Monday Night Raw era he is pretty much intolerable though. I think he was pretty ok during the 1997 JR/King/VKM booth as well.
It's pretty obvious to me that all announcers were instructed to be (over)enthusiastic and scream and shout in the early days of MNR, probably just to really drive home the fact that it was live, exciting, and that "anything could happen" etc..
I dunno, I hated it when one of his"loves to have fun" favourites came out.
"Oh ho ho! Look its the Tugboat! Ahahaha! Look at him! Woooo hahahaha!"
Did my head in.
Also i know he was a face announcer but he came up with some really odd things. Like watching that SNME battle royal again and him going on about Andre and Poffo, Andre didn't do anything wrong!
That's what i miss about guys like Ventura actually, he would have a go at the faces whilst still putting them over.
I would kill for a Vince voice over for a Rumble or Survivor Series intro again though. He was great at them.
I always loved Vince's energy. I think he had this idea when Raw started that he should amp it up and be this energetic play by play guy but man he sucked at play by play. That's why I really liked the 3-man team of him, JR, and King. And you can hear Vince's influence in JR as I feel he became even more animated working with Vince and then taking over as lead by play by play. He was always energetic but I feel he really hit his stride in the WWF/E.
But yeah, Vince. It's comical to go back and listen to him in like 1995 trying to put over these horrible gimmicks and yeah MMH like you said, anytime someone who was "FUN" came out he acted so fucking absurd. I was like 14 at the time but imagine being 5-7 years old and this old dude in this almost growl-voice trying to sell you on Dink and Doink!? If you didn't already fear clowns, you sure as fuck did after Vince introduced them lol.
The other thing I find funny about Vince's commentary from 94-96 is his obsession with every wrestler having a phrase to describe their gimmick.
And he beats that phrase into the ground 10 times per match.
Goldust: "The most bizarre individual in the history of the World Wrestling Federation" or simply, "The bizarre one."
Mankind: "The most deranged individual in the history of the World Wrestling Federation"
HBK: "The most charismatic superstar in the history of the World Wrestling Federation"
Razor: "He's oozing machismo!"
Hakushi: "A modern day kamikaze!"
Etc, etc, etc.
And then he would literally sprinkle those phrases in nonstop. I remember watching a Goldust match where he kept saying "Razor, sets the Bizarre One up for the ride. And a back body drop on the bizarre one!"
His whole marketing strategy was to pound things into his consumers heads, which is very similar to what he does now behind the scenes. He just no longer has a microphone...
You can definitely hear a lot of Vince in Michael Cole in terms of the lack of calling moves their real name, being more of an infomercial salesman than a wrestling play by play commentator.
Big dog! Say BIG DOG Damn it!
He was good at telling the story and putting guys over. Actually calling the match he was shit, didn't know the name of a single move, "WHAT A MANEUVER!" "HE GOT HIM! Oh no, he didn't." Monsoon was way better, but Vince was okay for the era.
Looking back I think Vince was the perfect guy for the role for that era, the New Generation Era so to speak. The image they were trying to convey, it fit. But again, even at 13-14 years old, I was like, what the fuck is wrong with this guy? I was more into the heel color guys like Mr. Perfect and Jerry Lawler, they were great with Vince always busting his balls. You have to wonder, who was feeding Vince lines???? Probably Pat, i can totally hear Pat's voice saying the things Vince said.
Vince's spontaneous robust laugh was my favorite thing about his commentating.
and he would squeeze them in at some of the most inopportune times too.
he and Jesse were indeed underrated.
Loved it when Ventura would bust his balls about his choice in clothing-- while all the while looking like he raided Blanche Devereaux's closet.
A staple of a great heel announcer is hypocrisy.
^^Did this guy just make a Golden Girls reference toward The Body's gear!??! CLASSIC!! lol.
I also think that Enzo Amore takes his fashion cues from Ms. Deveraux.
... and The Muppets.
Sometimes I wonder if Shawn Michaels is the most natural pro wrestler ever. He had only been wrestling for a couple of months when these matches took place in '85, he made his debut in October 1984 I believe.
The match with Billy Jack Haynes is just a squash, but in the second (vs. El Texano?) he looks pretty damn good.
The title is incorrect though, the match with Haynes is his first match in WCCW not his first match ever, that was three months earlier vs Art Crews.
Oh for sure. I don't think I've seen anyone in that short amount of time really nail it like HBK.
Bronco Lubich, legendary WCCW referee - he of the slow three count - in there calling the first match.
Little known fact: Lubitch owned 10% of World Class along with Fritz Von Erich.
Decided to start going through the Attitude era starting with mid '97. I have watched matches here and there and am familiar with how it all went down, but have never watched it show by show.
At the RAW after Survivor Series currently, I never got to watch most of DX's original promos, these are gold.
Just getting to Kane's stuff now too, just awesome. I love how they did his debut, he was immediately insanely over. His first few appearances really show how unrefined his in-ring talent was too back then, I miss when I could cheer for somebody based on sheer character rather than focusing on their technical prowess like we all tend to do with wrestlers. One thing I'm finding increasingly evident is just how many tiers the writing was above what it currently is. The reason I skip the matches to watch the promos might not necessarily be my dislike for the matches themselves, but rather the excitement to see what's in the next promo. It really does wonders for keeping interest in a character.
Also the WWF's push for their Light Heavyweight division was laughable. The main feud around this time is Brian Christopher vs. Scott Putski. The matches didn't give anyone a reason to care about them, at least not compared to the WCW Cruiserweight division going on at the same time.
Last edited by Venom_Axe; July 23rd, 2017 at 4:47 PM.
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