Originally Posted by Ringo
You're essentially saying you're annoyed with the concept of narrative structure.
Not at all. Finishers don't have to be the only way a match ends clean. And let's face it, with a lot of the moves that we are saying in this thread are stupid look like they are have less impact than other moves we see thru ought the course of a match, it can often make less sense that that is the move that ultimately finishes them off. Especially in the case of a 5 - 8 minute match. 20+ minute, ok I can buy the narrative that it finally takes the last bit of energy out of you, but not a weak looking finisher after 8 minutes.
That's how WWE style matches have always been though. That's their structure. They're not going to suddenly change it after 50 years. The audience is trained to pop for the finisher because that means the match is about to end. To change that would take a lot of audience re-training that frankly isn't really worth it.
It really doesn't matter if a finisher is "weak looking" if it's over. People can complain about the AA all they want, but what matters is that it gets a reaction, and people buy it as a finish.
Could we poll this up in a few weeks?
Is it just the WWE? I mean, I don't really see a lot of promotions consistently end a match that isn't by the person's finisher. Sure we might get a small package, roll up, backslide scenario but it's uncommon to see a match end via random frogsplash or random superplex. I'll be honest what used to piss me off about Japanese wrestling or Ring of Honor is you'd have like 30 high impact moves, they'd do their finisher 2-3 times, and then win by a lariat or roaring elbow. Not that it wasn't believable it just felt routine, like ok, I hit you with everything and now I'm going to win by doing the most basic move 3 times in a row and NOW you finally lost. Again that could just be the way I was raised on pro wrestling in general not just the WWE, shit even Mortal Kombat played in part in how I expect a fight to end lol.
I can't speak for Japanese promotions as I don't watch them much, but I do much prefer WWE's match structure to Ring Of Honor and other major indy promotions. Finishers and signature moves mean absolutely nothing in those feds and everyone is just popping for things that look cool. Nobody is actually invested in who wins most matches.
WWE does "finisher spamming" too, but I understand what you're saying. The only indy promotion I keep track of is Pro Wrestling Guerrilla because it doesn't take itself seriously.
I'm a big advocate of people sometimes winning with moves that aren't their finisher. No reason Bryan can't win a TV match with the Diving Headbutt. Or Ziggler beat somebody with the FameAsser. Would make their matches more interesting and dramatic if there was at least the possibility that those moves could get the win.
And if the crowd cares about the finish, they'll pop for the finish. When Bryan first used the Running Knee to beat Cena at Summerslam the crowd didn't really respond to the knee, but blew up when Bryan got the win. If for the next month once per show someone won a match with something that wasn't their finishing move I think the re-programming would occur.
I've heard this idea before and I honestly think it'd be great. Although you'd hear people bitching about like Axel getting "buried" because he lost to someone without a finisher taking place.
I've only ever followed WWE really close. Does this happen consistently in any other organizations?
This happened quite a bit back in the territory days, usually in highly competitive matches. With kayfabe still alive, things had to be a bit more believable. Crowds would pop pretty hard for matches won without finishers. Simply put, more thought was but into booking the ending of those matches. The results were apparent.
The old NWA stuff I've watched it seems very few people had finishers. Babyfaces would win with cradles most of the time and heels would win by cheating. I think most of the old school bookers thought that finishers exposed the business. And they were probably right about that.
A bit?
I fucking love a good non-finisher finish. Like that one chamber where they were building to Punk/Jericho so didn't want either to lose and had Punk nail a knockout kick and win with Jericho KOed. We need more knockout wins.
Hell, Warrior/Savage finished brilliantly on shoulder tackles.
I downplayed it a tad, sue me.
Actually, the frustrating thing about ROH is that, rather than doing away with finishers as a concept, the wrestlers there fill their movesets with nothing but established finishers (their's and other people's) and then just run through them all over the course of a match. It's every bit as much of a highspot fest as WWE ladder matches, with none of the payoff.
I gotta add that thing Sheamus does. Looks like a fireman carry somersault thing. I swear one day he is gonna snap his friggin neck doing it.
Rolling Senton. Yeah he doesn't really need it in his move-set.
Same feeling with Mickie James and her Mickie-D-T. Almost always it looked like her opponent was lifting her up for the move and turning her instead of her jumping and turning. What makes it worse is that it was usually opponents smaller than her that she did it to. Often referred to it as "can't lift your fat-ass" DDT because most of the divas in Mickie James' time couldn't.
Um...that ass is fat and beautiful!
Ricky Steamboat was the king of the roll up pin. Bret Hart was actually the last major star I can think of, who won the majority of his major championships (4 of his WWF titles, his second I/C title, and the King of the Ring) with pinning combinations, vs a finisher.
So does ANYONE hate the Angle Slam as much as I do? I always felt like this move got a free pass because Kurt is an internet favorite.
Never seemed like a finisher. It's just a Suplex.
Exactly. I always thought a T-Bone would've been a better finisher than that. His german suplexes also looked way more devastating, especially when they'd flip and bump on their stomachs.
Last edited by Gordbuster; April 17th, 2015 at 5:25 PM.
The Rude Awakening is just a neck breaker.
The Shake Rattle and Roll is just a spinning neck breaker.
The Last Ride is just a powerbomb.
The Clothesline From Hell is still just a clothesline.
this could go on and on...
An Elevated Power Bomb is a way bigger move than a spinning Samoan drop/ suplex type move.
This for me. 2nd for the Fame Asser, that's the worst ever for me.
for me KO punch is ridiculous as if that were OK, then it would be OK For all wrestlers to just go all out with close fist punches.
As far as the Leg Drop goes, if executed properly at least it looks like it should hurt.
I agree 619 is contrived but the set up looks like it could stun and the ender is essentially a two foot kick to the head
Yes, after my years of complaining about how fake the 619 set-up is it literally killed a guy. Bit ironic there.
Whatever the name is of Seths new finisher qualifies as a stupid move
Still not as dumb as Dirty Deeds
That's just fun silly stuff. Very entertaining.
The Overdrive they kept trying to push on every other call up from 2002-5 was awful.
It's also on my list of best wrestling moves...
Here's some other awesomely stupid ones...
Last edited by Bill Casey; April 22nd, 2015 at 11:44 PM.
Fully agree with this. There's moves that the vast majority of the roster use that get a pop anyway, which could be exemplified if they won with the move once in a while - Ambrose's rebound lariat, Rollins' corner powerbomb, Wyatt's uranage/senton combo, Ziggler's superkick etc. I think wrestling finishers should be reestablished via the restructuring of the hierarchy - a Ziggler Superkick is more than enough to put away Matador Dos, but if he's scrapping with Luke Harper it's not going to get the job done. Then when it's the feud ender with Harper and the Zig Zag doesn't get it done, an ultra move puts him away and is established as the "back of the locker" finish after that. That's one thing I liked about that Cena/Orton Cell match - they're both so conditioned to their finishes that they can kick out, so Cena resorted to the Super FU. And look how big a pop Orton gesturing for the Punt gets. That's the structure they should be going for - TV finish, PPV finish, BIG match finish. Everybody should have a submission finish as well, I have love for that 2002/3 era of 'Taker busting out Dragon Sleepers, Trips with Indian Death Locks, the Lasso From El Paso, the Edgeucator. Submissions are legit.
The only issue with people winning through a non-finisher is that you'll probably miss out on the extra bit of excitement a good commentator can add...an unexpected win using a move which the commentator doesn't hype up can only hurt the finish. So by all means have people winning via non-finishers, but you need to find a way of making those non-finishers seem like POTENTIAL finishers.
Because the commentary has been so good as of late anyways.
Using non finishers to end a match is fine and adds to the anything can happen aspect in wrestling, I wish it would happen a lot more.
Hate the headlock driver (original dirty deeds). I also loathe Miz's Skull-crushing finale. SKF has absolutely no impact and looks awful and stupid and shit.
Ur Burd says that about ur nob m8
u wot m8 ill fight u
The original Dirty Deeds is infinitely better than the one he has now
The Accolade can look pretty shit. Case in point, the one he applied to Ryback with the chain on Smackdown. Hook the arms, dammit.
The Accolade on Cena has never looked good to me
If you end the match on a non finisher, doesn't that make it a finisher...
The first time Trish Stratus hit the Stratusfaction (at Survivor's Series 2001), I thought it was a pretty cool move. Over the years it turned to shit, looking more and more like the opponent was lifting her up, and she would hold her opponents in a headlock for quite awhile so she could point and pose.
That being said, I think springboard moves work best as moves busted out rarely and not as finishers or signatures in every match. Kind of like Dean Ambrose's clothesline.
Except Dean uses it every single match.
Kinda his point...
I thought he was saying the opposite. Kind of confusing the way it's worded.
I'm sorry, I did word my statement in a strange way now that I look at it. I'm not a fan of Dean Ambrose's rebound clotheline in every match because its so contrived. He mixed it up at the last PPV by sliding into the ring and sliding back out to hit a clothesline on the outside. That's pretty neat for an occasional move, but every match would be too much.
Yea I totally agree. With so many matches on TV, moves get stale quickly. Suicide dives, super kicks, and Ambrose's clothesline off the ropes are all on that list.
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