Why does it make more sense for fictional superheroes to be able to fight each other regardless of gender than actual, professional athletes?Originally Posted by The Law
Why does it make more sense for fictional superheroes to be able to fight each other regardless of gender than actual, professional athletes?
I'm not kidding: if you can understand some level of Spanish, you'll be blown away by Vampiro's Spanish commentary. It's insightful, informative, and more passionate than his English commentary. I figure that after 20+ years in Mexico, the guy probably speaks better Spanish than English.
I got no problems with man on woman violence if they want to step in the ring. I just don't want any bitches holding a mans title.
Fuuuuuck, that Big Ryck confession skit!
Back before he got called up and was known as Rycklon Stephens in FCW, there were photos on their website of him with a cigar looking cool. I decided then that he would be amazing. Unfortunately there were only glimpses of that in WWE. But this is all that I hoped he would be and more. He has an EYEPATCH now as well!
Male and female athletes don't compete against each other, especially in combat sports. There's never going to be a UFC fight between Rhonda Rousey and a man.
Why not? The biggest reason is probably just because a lot of people would object to watching a man hit a woman for entertainment. The second reason is that male athletes have an advantage over female athletes. They're bigger, stronger, and faster. For something competitive you'd have to get a woman much larger than a man.
Lucha Underground's presentation is more akin to a scripted TV drama than the reality tv/pro sports presentation that wrestling usually has. I'd still probably prefer not to have the intergender matches, but the presentation of Lucha Underground makes it a bit more palpable to me than it would be if WWE did it.
There are some sports where inter-gender contests occur, and my point was that I don't see the difference between Lesnar battering Lita and Kong battering, say, Rey Mysterio. What advantage does Rey Mysterio have over Awesome Kong?
And I don't buy that you have to have a woman who is much larger than a man. Would you object to Shawn Michael vs Big Show?
Are you talking about legitimate fights or kayfabe wrestling matches?
Wrestling matches.
I have no problem with wrestlers of dramatically different sizes fighting each other. On the other hand, Rey Mysterio should only beat Big Show by outsmarting him, or using high-flying techniques, or if Big Show gets worn out. It wouldn't be credible if he just squared off with him and beat him up.
So why is it different if Mysterio has boobs?
Are you asking me to explain why I think male on female violence is wrong?
I'm asking you to explain why you think a man and a woman competing in a kayfabe wrestling match or angle is wronger than a tiny man fighting a giant in the same circumstances.
It's not violence if the woman is presented as an equal. As Mike said before, Kong could easily take on any man and would be considered a viable challenge. Why do you think of this as "violence" ?
I don't know what you mean by that. Violence is physical acts designed to cause harm.
The term "violence against women" has a particular stigma to it because women are an historically marginalized group.
I'd prefer Lucha Underground not have men vs. women matches because the underlying concept is that it's okay for men to hit women. I haven't seen a match involving the heel woman yet, but I'm sure it's going to happen and seeing the crowd cheer when one of the good guy wrestlers hits her is going to be gross. The fact that the promotion is run by Konnan, who I once heard tell a story on a podcast about "smacking a bitch," makes it a little worse.
The underlying concept is not that it is ok for men to hit women, it is that it is ok for two athletes to mutually agree to hit and take hits in a controlled environment. Women are a historically marginalised group, because people have long held them to be inferior and incapable of being like men or doing the things men do. So why does an athlete having a vulva make a match bad to behold but a 500lb giant battering a 150lb man sits just fine with you?
I just finished the most recent episode. I was surprised by how little hype they had behind Mistico showing up. No hype, no build, and then he loses his match. Does he not have any credibility in Mexico anymore?
I have really high hopes for Alberto here. His debut promo was great and dramatically better than any of his mic work in WWE.
I assume it's just a matter of time until we see Mysterio.
That Big Ryck vignette was phenomenal.
That's Argenis, Mistico's brother. Striker mentioned that I think but you must have misheard.
I really enjoyed the last episode. El Patron, Big Ryck, Pentagon, Muertes and Cuerno were all great. And I can't wait for Rey to eventually show up.
That makes a lot more sense.
Looks like Mistico is still a pretty big deal in AAA. Main evented TripleMania, won a big match on the next PPV after that. I wonder if we will see him show up in LU. Maybe finally get the Rey match in one promotion or the other.
I'm a bit behind on this but you guys are getting me pretty motivated to catch up.
They've done such a good job of keeping so many different characters hot and credible. Everyone has their role, most have direction. I'm fine with the studio audience and it's presumably easier to do it this way but I'd love to see how over everyone would be in front of a genuine crowd.
Is there any sense of how this is doing business-wise? They're continuing to invest with a new round of tapings and bring in Alberto, but that could be positive or negative. There's definitely some real money behind the show.
Not totally sure what their endgame is. I've heard they want to start touring. Not sure they can draw enough people to make money on house shows yet. They're doing great at what they're doing, but I don't know how high the ceiling is.
LU's business can't be measured by traditional means as they don't tour, put out PPVs, or sell a tickets on a regular basis since tapings are only once every so often. LU is also owned and operated by the network, but they give away so much of their content for free online and through channels like Unimas. Success for LU is to sell subscriptions for El Rey network and to grow El Rey into a larger network. If we El Rey grow as a network with LU at the helm, then it's doing well business wise.
Production of Lucha is tremendous.
I do think they've got more talent than they know what to do with (for a 1 houjr/week product). I personally just view them more as a TV show and less as a wrestling company.
Last edited by Cold_Hearted_Truth; February 15th, 2015 at 7:03 PM.
they need to do more trios
actually, a full fledged trios division would be awesome.
You haven't read the spoilers, eh? They happen to introduce a trios title in a few weeks.
awesome. nope, never wanted to look up LU spoilers.
The first team to win is pretty triply, but the division as whole shows a ton of promise. LU just needs to implement a proper jr/middle/light-weight title and their title situation will be perfect.
I'm gonna say it... Cage has finally started to impress me. When the big man was busting out some luchador-type aeriel stuff I did not expect from him against Johnny Mundo/Morrison, my respect for him went up a hundred-fold. (Of course, I have to admit, I was dying in laughter over Vampiro talking about Rick Mantel as if he were Rick Martel.)
Of course, other than the occasional squash match for Pentagon (and damn if the crowd isn't WANTING Pentagon JR to break someone's arm... that's what you call blood-thirsty!!)(, I don't think there's been a match on there that I haven't absolutely enjoyed. (even Son of Havok is enjoyable with his loser streak..)
Eventually, but I think Striker said it best.. right now, other than 3 or 4 people... you could drop almost anyone in a match for the main title and it would be a believable situation, and still get a minimum 4* of 5* match.LU just needs to implement a proper jr/middle/light-weight title and their title situation will be perfect.
But yeah, can't wait for the trios situation to develop...
I will disagree with you Law, about Alberto's promo... It just reeked of "kiss-ass" to the Latin community. He was held back in the WWE? Held back in ROH? I understood what he was going for and ended it okay, talking about winning "all" the major championships, but it just seemed off to me by that part of his statement.
Last edited by DaSaintFan; February 17th, 2015 at 10:09 AM.
So who do we think Matanza is?
He's barely started in ROH, but he should be going for the ROH title, so he kinda has been so far
It could actually be anything. I think it's some kind of trap for Ceuto (sp) to fall into mastered by Johnny Mundo!!
There was an actual guy locked up though when Cueto was chatting to him and we heard breathing and saw the shadow.
Trap
I think I'm actually one behind. I've only just seen fong in the last episode.
By that rationale, it's not okay for men to hit men either. When people say it's wrong to hit women, why is it implicitly 'right' to hit another man? What is the point of having fictional fighting if you can't make the most of it. Fictional fights that inherently rely on size and strength disparity, inter gender matches are as pro wrestling as you can get.
I wish I could easily get my hands on the spanish commentary for this, because I despise Matt Striker and everything he stands for, and can't believe he got to commentate in WWE.
Last edited by The Rogerer; February 17th, 2015 at 2:04 PM.
I'm loving Pentagon Jr. right now, he's kicking ass and is believable. I don't know where its going, im excited to see where it goes
Match Preview for Tonite (@8PM ET on El-Rey):
Good article, but does he know the fans are mainly plants?
Are they mainly plants at this point? They seem a lot more legit enthusiastic than the first taping's crowd did.
I liked tonight's episode a lot. There really weren't any big time workrate/flippy style matches which is a nice change of pace because it makes that stuff mean more when it happens. The style of wrestling in LU can get a bit monotone at times without enough guys doing different things. But tonight, although the opener wasn't any good, there was a fun angle/comedy match, a competitive squash, and they booked a hate crime as the main event.
It doesn't seem like they'd have a problem getting real fans in there unless they didn't want them. In a city the size of LA they should be able to get 100 (or whatever that place holds) wrestling fans to show up for free to watch good wrestling for a few hours. I know if I lived out there I'd want to go.
I wish they'd get Vampiro off commentary and just have him do interviews. His interview style is great, I love that they actually let him do some give and take and ask tough questions. Basically since Rock started shitting on the guys interviewing him (and admittedly, those guys were mostly garbage) wrestling interviewers have just been lapdogs there to ask one question or get mocked. Back in the day, interviews were a serious job and they would ask tough questions and go back and forth with the wrestlers. I like that Vampiro is a throwback to that style, but his commentary has been weak. Striker's been fine. Majorly toned down from how he was in WWE.
Dunno.. isn't that the purpose of Lucha? High workrate style?
I wasn't impressed with the opener from some reason (there wasn't anything wrong with it, it just seemed... off?), but I'm not so sure I'd call the main event more than a "comedy" match either. I'd have thought that Big Ryck would have done more than just shown up to cause the loss?But tonight, although the opener wasn't any good, there was a fun angle/comedy match, a competitive squash, and they booked a hate crime as the main event.
It seemed to be more of a "women's night" than anything... Catrina's) furthering her eventual "turn/double turn" on Fenix (at least that's where I _THINK_ it's going), And with the two girls both getting wins over the male wrestlers.
(Just wondering anyone have any photos of what Sexy Star looks like without the mask?).
Even the backstage items (other than the interview) just seemed to be "there" (Chavo lost one match, so he's giving up on Mexico?)
I believe they are using fans now, as Miotch said that he attended these past tapings.
Vampiro is wonderful in the interviews and on commentary in Spanish. He feeds off of Hugo Savonovich brilliantly.
Good episode this week. Loved the focus on trios and tag-team wrestling. With the new belts coming, it only makes sense to start building teams up. Loved the Katrina/Mil drama too. Cage looked like a madman walking into Cueto's office with the title around his neck like that, just mocking everything Dario Cueto stands for. All the stuff with that woman searching for that person and then getting kidnapped was excellent stuff. Can not wait for next week's show.
^ See. Real person at taping. Can you all shuddup about the 'plants' now?
I need to watch it in Spanish. The commentary is really quite jarring and they rarely say anything I don't know. The only thing I can think of that I'd change.
Hugo Savonovich is so stupidly charismatic and Vampiro communicates his thoughts much better in Spanish. Even if you don't understand it, it makes for much better background noise than the English commentary anyway.
Are there subtitles for the Spanish version Artie?
I feel like we have a close enough relationship where I can call you Artie and you can call me Bounce, or whatever my username is now.
"Kev" - I like it. One syllable, like Madonna.
Not sure for you. I watch it on TV on a channel we have called Univision. I know they have subtitles, but I don't use them.
I just stream really.
I haven't even bothered to check if it's available here. It most likely isn't. We had TNA, but this one hour show has been incredible to watch.
It's crazy that Morrison is apart of it on top of everything else.
Morrison? The surprising part is them making Chavo Guerrero a good heel
I may have missed that episode. I caught the one with the turn and just recently saw him pushed up against the wall by Mil Muertes
I'm learning Chilean at the moment which is close to Spanish so hopefully I won't even need subtitles..
I'm finally caught up on this show now, and I'm really loving the style of the whole thing, but especially in how they shoot the backstage segments. All of the character work is great too. I love how both Cage and Dario Cuerto are heels, but Cueto looks insulted by Cage disparaging the title that Dario was so proud of. I'm really interested in seeing where the Catrina/Fenix/Muretes angle is going (I assume that she's setting Fenix up, but wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong). I'm really curious in the woman investigating the temple, and who it is that Cuerto is hiding and why. There's just a lot of great storytelling going on right now, and I'm really looking forward to the next episode. This is right up there with NXT as my favorite wrestling show on TV every week.
My only complaint about this week's episode really is the fact that they showed the Big Ryck vignette at the start of the show, as well as last week. While I like the video itself, I felt it made it really obvious that he would come out during the main event. I felt it would have been better not to mention him at all, so we're left not knowing when he's coming back, and then have him show up in the main event to screw the Crew over. And seeing him in the eyepatch for the first time in front of a live crowd would be more impressive than debuting it in the vignette. Then next week show the vignette where he talks about what he's going to do to the guys that betrayed him.
Apparently Meltzer said last week's show was "like WCW at the end"
funny, cause...
He claims he was just there to write about it for his site, but he's probably lying. Wouldn't be the first time.
Match Listing for Tonight's Show (Airing @ 8PM ET on El-Rey Network):
Last edited by greebull; February 26th, 2015 at 11:45 AM.
Drago/Aero Star was lovely. Glad they're going to be wrestling a bunch of times.
Cage almost killed Puma just then.
MOVES.
Cage/Puma was pretty much the best match they could possibly have together.
Good show so far. Pentagon and Cuerno still to come.
great great great episode. i love how last week it was super angle based and this week they just went nuts with the workrate. hell of a night for dives! this is the best run of episodic wrestling since when, smackdown in 2006? ROH in 2007 if you want to count that.
Anyone else think Dario's "surprise" is not a title match? But a beatdown from some super-heel?
I loved the Cuerno/Mundo story/match. You could tell this one was personal for Mundo. (it still feels weird not writing Morrison anymore)., and I was absolutely thrilled with the brawl at the end (I was worried they were GOING to do the "over the balcony" fall.)
And that 630 (hell it might have been a 720?) from Puma.... WOW! I even liked Konnan throwing in the towel and the theory behind it (although the camera farked up on Cage's finisher (Weapon X?)
Spoiler-Free Match Preview for Tonight's Episode:
(8PM ET on El-Rey Network)
Really? Why would Sexy want another match with the Crew, as she's already won against them in the trios "match", which basically already means Sexy vs. the Crew already happened.-Big Ryck vs. Sexy Star (WINNER GETS A MATCH VS. THE CREW)
This one doesn't make any sense to me...
When do we get to see the start of the Trios tournament? Come on... I'm dying to see the SoH/Angelico/Evilesse storyline that should play out of this one!
She demanded a match vs the crew last week stating that she wants revenge for Pimpinella and Mascarita Sagrada
asking for a 3 on 1 rematch IS really dumb though. i dont mind the angle but really it is. would have been better if she requested a one on one match with one of them or something.
.. or a series of 1 on 1 matches with all three of them.
Basically she pulls off the upset in the first one, gets beat down.
Same in match #2... pulls off the upset again, gets clobbered. Ryck makes the rescue/save
Match #3.. never really happens, she gets beat down over and over from the get-go by all three of them, Ryck goes for the save again, they both get beat down this time.
Find a third partner for a trios match with Star, Ryck, ??? vs. the Crew in a trios match.
But asking for a wrestling match for the "right" to face a 3-on-1... Although I guess this could be a Dario move for his boys in the Crew.
another great episode. loved the main event. building to a MEXICAN STRAP MATCH i hope. and next week, mundo/cuerno IN THE CAGE. i love lu so much.
So weird hearing AJ Styles' theme used for a Konnan vignette. Still, love that EVIL WAYS jam.
I was very excited browsing my channel guide late last night to find that Lucha Underground is available on an affiliate that airs Saturdays 3-4pm and Sunday midnight-1pm.
In English or in Spanish?
Sadly, it's all in Spanish
Can't wait for the main event tonight!!
Complete Match Listing for Tonight's Episode:
(Airing 8PM EST on El-Rey Network)
I will say this, even though the broadcast I'm watching on an affiliate is entirely in Spanish, I'm digging the show. I've only seen one episode, one match, Texano v. El Patron, but just going off that it has a pretty original feel to it. I liked the video they did for Alberto. DVR is set.
This is a really cool little show for sure. Looking forward to seeing aLucha Underground style.
the main event tonight was definitely what I expected.. loved the "old style" cage.
I was surprised at who they had win, and loved the mask grab to prevent Cuerno from leaving the cage earlyt.. that was a great scene to show how important the masks are to the Mexican wrestlers...
So...been catching up the last few episodes, between this and NXT good lord this is some great stuff. Love Alberto and am amazed how much a lot of these guys arent allowed to have personailitys in mcmahon land.
Konnan's comeback is being built more interestingly than anything in WWE going into Wrestlemania.
Spoiler-Free Match Preview for Tonight's NEW Episode of "LUCHA UNDERGROUND"
(Airing @ 8PM ET on El Rey Network)
Last edited by greebull; March 18th, 2015 at 11:50 AM.
Fenix/Muertes casket match should be fun...
mil muertes vs. fenix 100% lived up to the hype of best lu match ever. everyone needs to see this episode.
"Fun"? That was absolutely FANTASTIC!!! Can we put regular LU matches on the yes/no list? Cause that was definitely a "HELL YES!"
Just about to watch the "Casket Match''. I'm amazed at how great LU has turned out to be.
LU is the best weekly TV show, bar none.
Haven't seen LU in a while, honestly since Puma won the belt. Just got in a wrestling funk I guess. Then all the sudden people started raging about Fenix vs Mil Muertes in a casket match of all things, and it turned out to be amazing. Now I'm pumped for wrestling again. Thanks Lucha Underground.
I read that as one of those "Thanks, Obama" posts.
I don't know, I keep hearing that from people about guys like Del Rio and Drew McIntyre, I watch these promos post-WWE and I'm like, yeah, same dude. Same in-ring work, same gimmick for Del Rio basically unless he was doing that "look at my ride, look at my WWE ring gear I still wear" stuff prior to coming to the WWE, I only really know his pre-WWE work from watching him get beat up in Pride lol.
That's not a knock on LU, I actually like the vignette they did with Del Rio but to make it out like he's somehow not the same guy he was in WWE isn't accurate.
Grave Consequences was fucking AMAZING. I thought DB/Kane did a great casket match a few months back, but this was 100x better.
Lucha Underground did the Royal Rumble better than WWE and now a Casket Match better than WWE.
I usually hate gimmicky stuff in wrestling, but it just works in Lucha Underground because of the atmosphere. Maybe it's just that they do a better job of presenting their more fantastical elements than WWE (much better production value).
They simply do a way better overall television product than WWE.
I watched the first three or four episodes of this then kind of forgot about it somehow. Why did I do that? What an idiot, Mike.
Blame Canada.
Yeah, fucking Canadians with their syrup and their winds.
TONITE @ 8PM EST on El-Rey Network: It's "LUCHA UNDERGROUND," 4 days before WWE WrestleMania!
FEATURED MATCHES:
-Alberto El Patron vs. Texano
-Cage vs. Prince Puma (STREET FIGHT)
I get the feeling tonight's episode will be a let-down from last weeks... it'll still be good, but I don't think it'll have the same impact as the GC match.
It's kinda hard to top perfection
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