Rajah's Greatest Ballers of All-Time List

[Percussion]

With LeBron fresh off his 4th, with all the talk in the NBA thread - and nationwide for that matter - about who's the GOAT it's high time we decide for ourselves who belongs where.

Number 1 may be a lock, but 2-10 etc should be a ton of fun. And are we maybe, just maayyybbbeee that much closer number 1 being not so for sure?

Everyone can pm me their best of all time list starting asap, and we'll give it a little time before a deadline is set.

The more the merry for both participants and listed candidates. A top 20 is preferable to get a more substantive final list, but I won't quibble over a top 10 or so.

[Percussion]

A convenient template grouping..

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU3pjWKXYAAjVBq.jpg

[Honey_Badger]

Larry Bird should be in tier 2, but that's pretty legit.

[Fro]

https://twitter.com/espngreeny/status/1316040742209564672?s=21

[Percussion]

Great argument.

[Chris Scott]

Sent list

[3puppies]

Sent my list in. Its so tough to compare players from different eras as the rules have changed, but also how tight they call the game. Also, how do we value individual accomplishments vs. doing whatever is needed to help the team win. Do we value mostly their best years, or their whole career? What supporting cast(s) did they play with / make better? To whatever extent do we consider intangibles / off the court stuff (Jordan's gambling problems, Chamberlain's 20,000 women etc, Kobe's tragic death etc.)

The one thing that I am confident about is that if I tried to come up with a list again, I would undoubtedly come up with different rankings.

[Fro]

I will get my list in soonish

[Kdestiny]

Planning on finishing mine up over the weekend

[Percussion]

Handful of lists in thus far and I can give away that there will not be a unanimous number 1 overall.

[Percussion]

kdestiny
Fro
Jimmy Zero
Matthew
PurePlayer
hithit
BGMaverick
Kneeneighbor
_me
Morrison
Honey_Badger
Randolph
Rancid_Planet

..just figure I'll take one more stab at this before calling it in.

[_me]

@kdestiny (https://forums.rajah.com/member.php?u=30840)
@Fro (https://forums.rajah.com/member.php?u=203)
@Jimmy Zero (https://forums.rajah.com/member.php?u=3019)
@Matthew (https://forums.rajah.com/member.php?u=8059)
@PurePlayer (https://forums.rajah.com/member.php?u=32424)
@hithit (https://forums.rajah.com/member.php?u=16297)
@BGMaverick (https://forums.rajah.com/member.php?u=22697)
@Kneeneighbor (https://forums.rajah.com/member.php?u=12810)
@_me (https://forums.rajah.com/member.php?u=32544)
@Morrison (https://forums.rajah.com/member.php?u=6279)
@Honey_Badger (https://forums.rajah.com/member.php?u=58327)
@Randolph (https://forums.rajah.com/member.php?u=69705)
@Rancid_Planet (https://forums.rajah.com/member.php?u=32741)

..just figure I'll take one more stab at this before calling it in.
I will get it done this afternoon. I just need to figure out where to slot the active players (Steph and KD seem like the only two that will make it outside LBJ) but just want to double check I didn't forget anyone.

[Kdestiny]

Totally forgot.

Will work on this later today.

[Fro]

ditto, sorry perc to make you poke people but I do plan to get this in by this weekend

[Percussion]

:yes:

[hithit]

I’ll get you a list shortly

[Randolph]

Just sent mine

[Chris Scott]

How many list have been sent in now?

[Percussion]

9

[Mr. Boombastic]

Sent my list

[Tyson]

Submitted

[TimeSplitter]

I submitted mine a while back. Eager to see how this looks.

[Chris Scott]

Exciting

- - - Updated - - -

If KOBE isn’t number 1...WE RIOT

[Pablo Diablo]

Guess you're rioting.

[Kdestiny]

And by we, it might only be you CS

[Percussion]

Spoiler alert.. get your riot gear ready Chris..

Up to 12 lists now total. Few more would be great, and with a few coming in the last couple days I'll give it at least until this weekend to perhaps begin counting down..

[Dreyski]

List sent. Should be interesting.

[CWE]

Sent in my list. No current players on it. And Jordan at #2.

[Pablo Diablo]

Now that's a hot take.

[Kdestiny]

:happysad:

[Fro]

Percussion

[Matthew]

i am not good at ordering things i cannot do this

[Percussion]

Percussion

So a combination of being a bit busy and hoping for another list or two has got me sidetracked on this. My bad to those who've contributed.

Will go ahead and put a final tally to things and have the the 20th best baller of all time ready for reveal sometime today or no later than tomorrow for certain.

[Fro]

all good. no huge rush, if there's any stragglers who expressed interest but haven't submitted yet, might as well give them another nudge. I know how it goes with these lists - the more submissions the more filled out the group list gets.

[Percussion]

Thanks to..

Chris Scott
3puppies
Mazer
Pablo Diablo
TimeSplitter
kdestiny
hithit
Randolph
Mr. Boombastic
Fro
Tyson
Stan Accy
CWE

..for their contributions to the Rajah's Greatest Ballers of All-Time List

And so without further ado..

[Percussion]

#20
https://a1.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F2020%2F0504%2FHu_200504_ BR_nba_suns_x_warriors_barkley_efemeride_1994_high light%2FHu_200504_BR_nba_suns_x_warriors_barkley_e femeride_1994_highlight.jpg
Charles Barkley

Born: February 20, 1963
Years Active: 1984-2000
Height: 6'6 Weight: 252
College: Auburn University
Position: Power Forward
Career Stats: 22.1 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.5 spg, .8 bpg, .541 fgp, .266 3pp, .735 ftp
11x All-Star, 5x All-NBA 1st Team, NBA All-Rookie 1st Team, 1x Rebounding Leader, 1x NBA MVP, HoF

Points: 36
Votes: 8
Ranked Highest by: Stan Accy (11th)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu3vkwP3GHQ&t=45s&has_verified=1

[Randolph]

That's nuts he's that low.

[Pablo Diablo]

Definitely hurt by never getting a ring.

Probably also hurt by how he's become a bit of comic relief in his post playing career.

[Fro]

He wasn't on my list. An oversight, perhaps. I think #20 is a fair spot for him, but we'll see who makes it above him.

I don't think his post playing career has anything to do with it. His success as a broadcaster only makes him more relevant IMO.

[KayBur]

Sent my list in. Its so tough to compare players from different eras as the rules have changed, but also how tight they call the game. Also, how do we value individual accomplishments vs. doing whatever is needed to help the team win. Do we value mostly their best years, or their whole career? What supporting cast(s) did they play with / make better? To whatever extent do we consider intangibles / off the court stuff (Jordan's gambling problems, Chamberlain's 20,000 women etc, Kobe's tragic death etc.)

The one thing that I am confident about is that if I tried to come up with a list again, I would undoubtedly come up with different rankings.

Good questions. It seems to me that even for each of them, you can make a separate top. Who has the most successful career in general, who was cooler at the peak of their form, who earned the most points, who made the most spectacular shots, whom we value not only as an athlete, but also as a person. Let's not forget about social activities and charity. Because athletes are the people that millions look up to. And who, no matter how idols, should show us an example of worthy behavior?

[3puppies]

That's nuts he's that low.

You could have added, in a trademark Barkley drawl...."That's Turrible!"

[Percussion]

#19
https://www.nbareligion.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Dirk-Nowitzki-Cover-2.jpg
Dirk Nowitzki

Born: June 19, 1978
Years Active: 1998-2019
Height: 7'0 Weight: 245
Prior to NBA: DJK Würzburg
Position: Power Forward
Career Stats: 20.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 2.4 apg, .8 spg, .8 bpg, .471 fgp, .380 3pp, .879 ftp
14x All-Star, 4x All-NBA 1st Team, 50-40-90 Club, 1x NBA MVP, 1x NBA Champion, 1x NBA Finals MVP

Points: 37
Votes: 7
Ranked Highest by: Stan Accy (12th)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZnUQQ36p6M

[3puppies]

I love Dirk, but there's clearly a recency bias around here as more than half of y'all included him in your top 20.

[Pablo Diablo]

His performance in the 2011 Finals alone earns him this spot.

Sure he may not have a ton of MVPs, but that's because he was beat by people who I'm sure will be placing much higher on this list.

[Fro]

Dirk was not on my list. So who is better between Dirk and Charles?

[Pablo Diablo]

I had Dirk 18 and Barkley 19.

Could have had them switched on a different day.

I think recency bias probably plays a role in why Dirk is above Barkley. But looking at the stats now probably should have put Barkley above.

[Percussion]

I love Dirk, but there's clearly a recency bias around here as more than half of y'all included him in your top 20.

Bro you have Kawhi, Harden, and Russell Westbrook on your list.

I didn't have Dirk myself, but like Pablo said he had a postseason no less valuable than anything the three of them have done.

[Kdestiny]

His performance in the 2011 Finals alone earns him this spot.

Sure he may not have a ton of MVPs, but that's because he was beat by people who I'm sure will be placing much higher on this list.

Exactly. His Finals performance that season was LEGENDARY and with it coming against the first modern super team makes it that much better.

[Dreyski]

Slightly interesting I placed both Barkley and Nowitzky highest - suggests I made a cock-up further down the line.

[CWE]

Barkley wouldn't have made my top 30.

[Mazer]

Barkley wouldn't have made my top 30.

Did Bill?

[CWE]

Did Bill?

Barely misses my top 5.

[Mazer]

I had him at 5

[Percussion]

#18
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/sjm-warriors-0417-1916.jpg?w=620
Kevin Durant

Born: September 29, 1988
Years Active: 2007-present
Height: 6'10 Weight: 240
College: University of Texas
Position: Forward
Career Stats: 27 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 4.1 apg, 1.1 spg, 1.1 bpg, .493 fgp, .381 3pp, .883 ftp
10x All-Star, 6x All-NBA 1st Team, NBA RoY, All-Rookie 1st Team, 50-40-90 Club, 4x NBA Scoring Champ, 1x NBA MVP, 2x NBA Champion, 2x NBA Finals MVP

Points: 40
Votes: 7
Ranked Highest by: Fro (11th)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsrcxzC6sr4

[Fro]

Kevin Durant is a monster on the court. I would say he is underrated here. A complete freak of nature designed by God to play basketball.

[Percussion]

I had him 16th so I can't argue with this spot really. I agree in terms of his scoring ability he's all that you said there. Literally appears designed to put a basketball in the hoop nearly at will.

But I think there are still questions from some about what would have been had he not gone to GS. It wasn't the best look to many and if you wipe the 2 rings and 2 Finals MVPs off his resume does he still keep such a lofty ranking overall? It's worth at least some consideration.

[Pablo Diablo]

I had him 15th and below Curry.

He is a great scorer. He's also not awful on D. I definitely think part of why I ranked him where I did is similar to Percussion. The hardest road.

[Fro]

Durant vs Curry is an interesting debate. I had Durant higher. Curry's career is certainly more admirable (staying with 1 team and leading them to a title and then a dynasty), and that certainly counts for a lot, but if I'm drafting my team I'm taking Durant over Curry.

[Pablo Diablo]

We'll save that debate for when Curry gets revealed.

Durant is very good. I hedged against recency bias when making my list somewhat (for the most part) and only included 3 active players, of which he was the lowest ranked on my list. So I definitely don't think he's a slouch, just thinking all time I think 15 is a good place for him.

[Mazer]

I think sometimes people sleep on what Curry did before Durant got there.

[CWE]

Durant and Curry will both almost be guaranteed to make my list when they retire. But my list is full of Hall of Famers already. I hate rating players before I see their full body of work.

[Chris Scott]

I had Barkley 19th, Dirk 17th & Durrant 20th

[3puppies]

I looked back on my list and am surprised I don't have KD on there. He probably belongs.

[Honey_Badger]

I love Dirk. He is one of, if not my all-time, favorite player in NBA history.

I was playing high school basketball when he was ascending to his greatness. I remember trying to model my jump shot after his, touching the legs together when releasing. He is the reason I'm a Dallas Mavs fan.

Dirk said, Big 3 who? in that title year. I loved it. One of the greatest finals performances of all-time.

[TimeSplitter]

I haven't had any of the three so far on my list so far. I would have them on in my 20-30 range. Durant can still climb up the list depending how he rebounds from injury with the Nets.

[Mazer]

Durant and Curry will both almost be guaranteed to make my list when they retire. But my list is full of Hall of Famers already. I hate rating players before I see their full body of work.

I typically go with what if they retired today.

[Percussion]

#17
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/karl-malone-of-the-utah-jazz-shoots-a-free-throw-against-the-portland-picture-id109918803?k=6&m=109918803&s=594x594&w=0&h=t-rK1OkEuXiIsYWyDtChUP--lnsnawSrqkiqHLD6i64=
Karl Malone

Born: July 24, 1963
Years Active: 1985-2004
Height: 6'9 Weight: 250
College: Louisiana Tech University
Position: Power Forward
Career Stats: 25 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 3.6 apg, 1.4 spg, .8 bpg, .516 fgp, .274 3pp, .742 ftp
14x All-Star, 11x All-NBA 1st Team, 3x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, NBA All-Rookie 1st Team, 2x NBA MVP, HoF

Points: 45
Votes: 8
Ranked Highest by: hithit (12th)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELXbMyucKxU

[3puppies]

The Mailman is another I left off my list, but I understand the argument where he belongs.

[Mr. Boombastic]

Karl Malone is terribly underappreciated. I think it's fairly evident Malone was the 3rd best player of the 90s (behind MJ and Hakeem).

Statistically only LeBron and Kareem had a longer elite run of basketball as he was basically at least a 25-10 guy every year from 87-88 season to 99-00. 11x first team All NBA, 2x MVP (even if one of those was stolen from MJ), he was the best player on a team that won at least 51 games (or equivalent winning percentage bc of the 99 lockout) 12 out of 13 seasons in his prime.

Being a Bulls guy, I was never a fan of him, but it's crazy that nobody really talks about him much anymore as one of the greats.

[Pablo Diablo]

Mailman just snuck into my list at 20.

[Mr. Boombastic]

I actually had him at 17 also.

[Percussion]

#16
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/a8/66/27/a8662734b78ae385887c60c87aa6d59c.jpg
Scottie Pippen

Born: September 25, 1965
Years Active: 1987-2004
Height: 6'8 Weight: 228
College: University of Central Arkansas
Position: Small Forward
Career Stats: 16.1 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 5.2 apg, 2 spg, .8 bpg, .473 fgp, .326 3pp, .704 ftp
7x All-Star, 3x All-NBA 1st Team, 8x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, 1x NBA Steals Leader, 6x NBA Champion, HoF

Points: 49
Votes: 8
Ranked Highest by: Chris Scott, TimeSplitter, Tyson (13th)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF6DCEMjCR0

Recap..

16. Scottie Pippen
17. Karl Malone
18. Kevin Durant
19. Dirk Nowitzki
20. Charles Barkley

[Chris Scott]

Honestly thought he would have been a bit higher. Scottie P deserves to be middle of the pack.

[Pablo Diablo]

I think he was my last man out. It entirely comes down to being in the shadow making it hard for me to know just how good he actually was.

[CWE]

Only 1 person from my list so far.

[Mazer]

I think he was my last man out. It entirely comes down to being in the shadow making it hard for me to know just how good he actually was.

This is bit higher for me, but I have him in this range.


The year w/o Jordan he was 3rd in MVP voting. Took that team to 55 wins with Pete Myers and Kerr each playing 25 minutes a game.

Even though, he made one of the worst decisions any player has made during the kukoc shot, he still led them to 7 games against a Knicks team that went 7 games in the Finals.

And the Knicks needed a stupid ass phantom foul to get by.




Still bitter

[Pablo Diablo]

You're a Bulls fan?

[Mazer]

You're a Bulls fan?

Yep. Bandwagon jumped in 1986, and stayed on since.

[Pablo Diablo]

The 90s must have been tough. I can see how that loss to the Knicks in the middle would stick with you.

[Pablo Diablo]

That said I do defer to your knowledge of Pippen over mine.

[Mazer]

The 90s must have been tough. I can see how that loss to the Knicks in the middle would stick with you.

It was tough. The Bulls never got ANY calls that decade. I have no idea what the Jazz fans are talking about.

[Dreyski]

One place down from where I had him. Capable wingman for Jordan, and NBA Jam legend.

[Percussion]

#15
https://www.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Steph-Curry-Golden-State-Warriors-640x360.jpg
Steph Curry

Born: March 14, 1988
Years Active: 2009-present
Height: 6'3 Weight: 185
College: Davidson College
Position: Point Guard
Career Stats: 23.5 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 6.6 apg, 1.7 spg, .2 bpg, .476 fgp, .435 3pp, .906 ftp
6x All-Star, 3x All-NBA 1st Team, NBA All-Rookie 1st Team, 1x NBA Scoring Champion, 1x NBA Steals Leader, 50-40-90 Club, 2x NBA MVP, 3x NBA Champion

Points: 50
Votes: 8
Ranked Highest by: Randolph (12th)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMs6mjqIXNo

[Randolph]

I've been following Curry since his awesome run in the Final Four with Davidson. I respect the hell out of that dude and had a big part in shaping basketball where it is today, love it or hate it. I have always hated dynasties outside of the Pistons and Redwings, but I was happy to see Curry win a title or three.

[Fro]

Steph is so far and away the best 3 point shooter of all time (even compared to the likes of Ray Allen) that he actually changed the game.

[Mazer]

This is a good spot for Steph. I agree. If you were ranking influential players, he pops up even higher.

I feel like I'm going to be angry about John Stockton getting snubbed out of the top 20.

[Pablo Diablo]

I had him at #13

There is not a better shooter in the history of the NBA that even putting him at #13 seems low.

He's also underrated with his ability to drive the ball.

[Percussion]

His ballhandling is actually fantastic, just that his shooting is so head and shoulders above anything we've ever seen that the handles becomes just kind of tacked on when talking about him.

It's really a stellar lowkey compliment.

[Percussion]

#14
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6XnT4azcpto/XOyeP25qLPI/AAAAAAAA97s/3TQ3ahTiwKwwoJvhY7wVomBMEGBp4T9jQCLcBGAs/w680/jerry-west-main-marquee.jpg
Jerry West

Born: May 28, 1938
Years Active: 1960-1974
Height: 6'3 Weight: 175
College: West Virginia University
Position: Point Guard
Career Stats: 27 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 6.7 apg, 2.6 spg, .7 bpg, .474 fgp, --- 3pp, .814 ftp
14x All-Star, 10x All-NBA 1st Team, 4x NBA All-Defensive 1st Team, 1x NBA Scoring Champion, 1x NBA Assist Leader, 1x NBA Champion, 1x NBA Finals MVP, HoF

Points: 59
Votes: 8
Ranked Highest by: TimeSplitter (5th)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjLsLLv15dU

[Pablo Diablo]

Ranked 17th on my list. Obviously never saw him play so entirely based it off what I have read about him.

Would be interested to see why TS decided to rank him 5th.

[Percussion]

Had him comfortably at 14th. Fantastic production that would likely hold up in today's NBA. 10 Finals appearances even if it was a terrible uphill climb. Only Finals MVP from a losing team in league history in the process. And of course, the logo. Pretty memorable career with a timeless game.

[Mazer]

I feel like Jerry is one of the guys that was way ahead of the game. If you have him in a modern offense, he's hoisting up 7 3s a game, and still providing that excellent court vision. Would be an absolute killer.

[Fro]

I had him 19th. Surely he would be higher if he had a better Finals record than 1-8. But yea, he’s an old timer so I don’t have much perspective on him other than looking at his accomplishments on paper.

[Percussion]

#13
https://n.sinaimg.cn/www/transform/284/w650h434/20180917/tvDj-hkahyhx9229236.jpg
Oscar Robertson

Born: November 24, 1938
Years Active: 1960-1974
Height: 6'5 Weight: 205
College: University of Cincinnati
Position: Point Guard
Career Stats: 25.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 9.5 apg, --- spg, --- bpg, .485 fgp, --- 3pp, .838 ftp
12x All-Star, 9x All-NBA 1st Team, NBA RoY, 6x NBA Assist Leader, 181 Career Triple Doubles 1st All-Time, 1x NBA Champion, 1x NBA MVP, HoF

Points: 95
Votes: 11
Ranked Highest by: TimeSplitter (4th)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE9CKUgQoXM

[3puppies]

TimeSplitter had both Jerry and the Big O tied at 5th?

[Percussion]

TimeSplitter had both Jerry and the Big O tied at 5th?

He had West 5th and Oscar 4th. I use each last reveal as a template for the next one and just missed switching the 5 to a 4. My bad.

Good catch, thanks bud.

[Percussion]

If you take Big O's first 5 seasons totaled up he averaged a 30 point triple double for the lot of them - 30.3 points, 10.4 rebounds, and 10.6 assists.

The first player ever to average 10 or more assists per game. And the first guard to average 10 or more rebounds per game.

So he effectively entered the league averaging things no one had ever done before and continued them year after year.

[Pablo Diablo]

I had him at 16.

Once again another judging solely by the numbers and what people said about him. And he really did have some great stats.

Hurt by me being unable to properly judge older eras and how different the game was at the time.

[Percussion]

#12
https://pm1.narvii.com/6661/7940bf997c4f29e69258072c116b8bc428df9f6d_00.jpg
Julius Erving

Born: February 22, 1950
Years Active: 1971-1987
Height: 6'7 Weight: 210
College: University of Massachusetts
Position: Small Forward
Career Stats (ABA/NBA): 24.2 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 4.2 apg, 2.0 spg, 1.7 bpg, .506 fgp, .298 3pp, .777 ftp
5x ABA All-Star, 4x All-ABA 1st Team, 1x All-ABA Defensive 1st Team, 3x ABA Scoring Champion, 2x ABA Playoff MVP, 2x ABA Champion, 3x ABA MVP
11x All-Star, 5x All-NBA 1st Team, 1x NBA Champion, 1x NBA MVP, HoF

Points: 111
Votes: 12
Ranked Highest by: Tyson (6th)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmbzNj04VPY

[CWE]

#12

Good spot. Right where I had him. The definition of smooth.

[Pablo Diablo]

I had him in at 11.

As we get to more footage available, the better I feel I am to judge them as players.

[Percussion]

I don't really fret ranking the classic era dudes. There's tons of info and I rather enjoy looking it up as a sports dork.

I wouldn't get in a fist fight over my choices, but I'd happily bat around my reasons with anyone and try and have fun with it. That being kinda the point.

[Pablo Diablo]

It's more I can't make as strong arguments for classic era dudes outside of those with absurd stats as I can for people who I have more footage to watch and whose games I actually had the chance to watch.

[Percussion]

I guess between the stats, the pretty abundant video footage, the anecdotal tales, the analytic data for historical context I just don't see the fuss.

Player comps are made all the time between eras, stats are compiled that separate eras, stories are told and distinctions are made between eras.. and I guess also is like I said it's part of the fun.

Just not trying to make it even a medium deal, much less a big deal.

[Pablo Diablo]

I mean...you know I still ranked older players. I'm not making a fuss.

I'm just saying my arguments are weaker than about those I saw live. I don't know how that's a controversial thing for me to say and be called out on.

[Percussion]

I only mentioned it after seeing you bring it up a few times. My bad then.

[Fro]

Yea Perc and I have had that same discussion before. We can rank the old timers but our perspective on them is more limited than the guys we experienced in our lifetimes. Dr. J being a good example. It's hard for me to quantify his dominance, but I had him 20th (likely underrated by me).

[Mazer]

Dr. J is a tough one. His historical ranking seemed to go down after his retirement (not just relative to modern players), as less and less people factor in the ABA days (and there's not a lot of video).

He's one that I constantly forget to rank until I'm deeper, and then get mad at myself. I go back and forth, but he usually ends up in the mid to high teens for me.

[Percussion]

#11
https://n.sinaimg.cn/sports/crawl/297/w550h547/20200709/b446-iwasyei5508727.jpg
Hakeem Olajuwon

Born: January 21, 1963
Years Active: 1984-2002
Height: 6'10 Weight: 255
College: University of Houston
Position: Center
Career Stats: 21.8 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.7 spg, 3.1 bpg, .512 fgp, .202 3pp, .712 ftp
12x All-Star, 6x All-NBA 1st Team, 5x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, 2x Defensive PoY, 2x Rebounding Leader, 3x Blocked Shots Leader
2x NBA Champion, 1x NBA MVP, 2x NBA Finals MVP, HoF

Points: 112
Votes: 11
Ranked Highest by: Percussion (6th)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fagZzpRH8DE

[Dreyski]

Hot take: When Jordan left to play baseball, Olajuwon was the best player in the NBA.

[Percussion]

Recap..

11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Julius Erving
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Jerry West
15. Steph Curry
16. Scottie Pippen
17. Karl Malone
18. Kevin Durant
19. Dirk Nowitzki
20. Charles Barkley

[Percussion]

Hot take: When Jordan left to play baseball, Olajuwon was the best player in the NBA.

I honestly wish Jordan had still been there, we matched up really well..

The Rockets went 12-9 during the 21 times Olajuwon faced Jordan and the Bulls heads up during their careers -

and Olajuwon averaged 23.4 points, 11.7 rebounds, 3.5 blocks, 1.9 steals, and had a 51.3 FG%.

[Dreyski]

I had him at 9th. One of four players with a quadruple-double. All-time leader in blocked shots.

[Percussion]

He actually had a second one in the same month with 29 pts, 18 rbds, 11 blks, and 10 assts, but it was rescinded by the nba afterwards to 9 assts.

Only NBA player to retire in the all-time top ten for blocks, scoring, rebounding, and steals.

Only player to win a Championship, DPoY, MVP, and Finals MVP in one season.

I'm admittedly a little bias, but damn..

https://exnba.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/tumblr_n60qznUBa01s3gys4o1_400.gif

[Pablo Diablo]

I had him at 12th. Probably dropped down from his true rating because of those glorious glorious Raptors years ;)

But seriously, the Dream in his day was truly one of the greats. It would have been interesting to see how they would have done those years against a Jordan Bulls team. One of those what ifs, but they were a good team.

[Dreyski]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsdYgusnHTM

[Kdestiny]

Hot take: When Jordan left to play baseball, Olajuwon was the best player in the NBA.

Definitely not that crazy a take.

[Randolph]

I can't find my list in sent messages. I don't remember deleting it.

[Percussion]

Just sent it back to you..

[Randolph]

Thanks! It's better to follow this when you know how bad you suck at evaluating legendary basketball talent.

[CWE]

My favorite Hakeem moment is David Robinson getting MVP for the regular season in the second Rockets championship and Hakeem saying, He has my trophy, then just destroying him that series to prove a point.

[Percussion]

That series was over the top legendary. Dream just single-handedly wrecking the nba's new 'mvp'...

pts -- reb -- assts -- stl -- blk -- fg%

35.3 - 12.5 - 5.0 - 1.3 - 4.2 - .560

23.8 - 11.3 - 2.7 - 1.5 - 2.2 - .449

[Fro]

I had Hakeem 12th.

None of my top 10 has appeared yet, and I'm pretty confident my top 10 will match the top 10 of the group rankings (not in order but just in terms of who appears). Not exactly surprising because I didn't have any bold top 10 rankings in there. I'm curious to see the order.

[Percussion]

#10
https://i2.wp.com/b-rise.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Shaquille-ONeal-Lakers-2.jpg?resize=800%2C445&ssl=1
Shaquille O'Neal

Born: March 6, 1972
Years Active: 1992-2011
Height: 7'1 Weight: 325
College: Louisiana State University
Position: Center
Career Stats: 23.7 ppg, 10.9 rpg, 2.5 apg, .6 spg, 2.3 bpg, .582 fgp, .045 3pp, .527 ftp
15x All-Star, 8x All-NBA 1st Team, NBA RoY, 2x NBA Scoring Champion, 4x NBA Champion, 1x NBA MVP, 3x NBA Finals MVP, HoF

Points: 136
Votes: 12
Ranked Highest by: Stan Accy (7th)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01EIJq0LxAY

[Mazer]

My favorite Hakeem moment is David Robinson getting MVP for the regular season in the second Rockets championship and Hakeem saying, He has my trophy, then just destroying him that series to prove a point.

I loved that as well. I miss MVPs being named at the end of the regular season.

[Fro]

where would shaq's life have gone without basketball? that is to say, what do 7 foot tall people do if they can't ball? must be awful.

anyway he is another physical phenom. a specimen.

[Tyson]

:wonders how much more dominant Diesel would have been had he been able to hit a damn free throw:

If Shaq had been able to hit at even a 70% clip from the stripe over the course of his career, that’s another ~2,500 points. Not to mention, the numerous late game possessions that he missed out on because the coach was like “Shaq will just
get fouled the second he touches the ball and we’ll be lucky to get one of two points”.

And the fact that O’Neal didn’t give two shits about off-season conditioning is a whole other discussion...

[Pablo Diablo]

Physical monster. Can only imagine what he would have been like if the hack a shaq wasn't so effective.

Definitely would be higher up on the list. When he got the ball down low though he was unstoppable.

[3puppies]

I will always hold special place in my heart for Shaq. I had the honor of meeting him in an elevator on my honeymoon in Hawaii - he was in the same hotel. My wife and I had been waiting for the elevator and this huge hulking man came up with a few folks following him with stuff they wanted signed. We got in the same same elevator, and after he signed a hat and shirt for the other people he looked at me as if I had something I wanted signed. I told him I'd just like to shake his hand, and he offered it with a wide, sincere smile. His hands made mine look like a small child by comparison. We said "Aloha" and shook hands. It turned out we were both on the same floor - at other ends.

As a player, Shaq had his flaws, and it was because of those that I left him off my top 20.

[Tyson]

He seems like a great dude, would love to have a couple beers with him.

[Mazer]

When Shaq was on, he was arguably top 5 for dominance. Could just be an absolute fucking force. I know he was limited when the game was close, but often he did a great job making sure the game wasn't close.

his conditioning and some of the other stuff limited him. I once heard him compared to the kid who could have been valedictorian if he worked hard. But he went to a lot of parties, had a great time, and graduated with a 3.5. Shaq seems like he enjoys his life, even if didn't meet his full potential.

Fair enough.

[Fro]

he had a pretty successful career for an underachiever

[Percussion]

#9
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EikirveWsAArNsp?format=jpg&name=small
Tim Duncan

Born: April 25, 1976
Years Active: 1997-2016
Height: 6'11 Weight: 250
College: Wake Forest University
Position: Big
Career Stats: 19 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 3 apg, .7 spg, 2.2 bpg, .506 fgp, .179 3pp, .696 ftp
15x All-Star, 10x All-NBA 1st Team, NBA RoY, 8x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, 5x NBA Champion, 2x NBA MVP, 3x NBA Finals MVP, HoF

Points: 143
Votes: 14
Ranked Highest by: Chris Scott, Mazer, Pablo Diablo, kdestiny, Mr. Boombastic (7th)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZc3uq56JKU

[3puppies]

I noticed that Duncan is the first player to make everyone's list. During most of his career, I always felt he was underrated as a player, perhaps because he wasn't obnoxious, he didn't talk smack, and he didn't play in a huge market. It seemed to me that only during his later years did he get the respect from fans across the country, and he's gotten tons of it.

[Mazer]

He made everyone better. Best interior help defender I've ever seen. Just strong all-around. Underrated as a winner.

[Pablo Diablo]

His personality, his game, none of it was flashy. But he was the anchor of one of the truly great teams over a long span.

A leader on the court and someone you can always rely on to put up outstanding numbers.

That his highest rated spot was 7th isn't surprising as he's not the greatest of all time. But that 5 of us put him in at 7 shows just how many of us saw his greatness all the same.

[Percussion]

He should have sported this look in the middle of his career..

https://img.particlenews.com/img/id/07MaL4_0Xbgpw6000?type=thumbnail_512x288

[Pablo Diablo]

Easy top 5 if he had that look.

[Percussion]

Is it a super hot take to say that maybe Duncan wasn't all that underrated as opposed to being just properly rated?

All-time lists will have him consistently in the top ten. Our simple list here does as well. He's widely recognized as one of the best ever, and almost universally as the best power forward ever.

I don't mean to be too contrarian here, but he was also the beneficiary of one of the greatest coaches of all time in Poppovich and bevy of support around him in both stars and role players from a stellar front office for the better part of two decades. He definitely deserves his credit for squeezing every last ounce out of the hand he was given, but there are also guys who've reached his kind of accomplishments with far, far less.

Idk, I sound like a hater here when I really admire Timmy as a baller and as a seemingly legit good dude. Just the idea that he's not respected I think is a little overplayed at this point.

[Fro]

His underratedness is overrated

[Percussion]

Precisely.

[_me]

I feel like when people say Duncan is underrated, they are really just talking about him and Kobe. It is their way of saying that Duncan is better than Kobe (without trying to start a fight with Kobe-stans).

Like Percussion said, his place in the overall pantheon in NBA history is hard to argue; best PF ever, Top 10 all-time

[3puppies]

I meant to say that he was underrated for most of his playing career. He didn't get the love from fans as one of the all-time greats while he was playing, but I don't think any of that mattered to him - he just wanted to get out on the court and win.

[Fro]

Duncan vs Kobe is a good debate, and we can discuss Kobe more later but I will jump ahead a little here in the interest of this comparison... Even before Kobe's death, while I did often bring up their comparisons (both had 5 titles, etc), I put Kobe slightly ahead. His final game really sealed it for me (silly as that may sound). I know it was just a spectacle, but his final game was one of the most memorable regular season games (if not THE most) I can recall. And maybe it is unfair to consider that an elite scorer superstar player (in every sense of the word) is more "great" than a big PF who plays fundamental basketball as good as anyone ever has, but to me, captivating the nation and moving the needle does factor into greatness, especially when their accomplishments are so similar on paper.

So yea, it's possible Duncan is underrated against Kobe because for all of Kobe's scoring prowess and flash, Duncan may have been a more effective player overall. I don't know. I flirted with the Duncan over Kobe stance for a period, but I'm off it now. I think it is still apt to include them in the conversation together given they both played in the same era and accomplished very similar things in regard to titles/accolades.

I do agree Duncan was underrated during his career for a while, until he got to 4 rings and then 5.

[Percussion]

They came into the league one year apart, left the same season, and each played their whole careers with one team in the same conference for power franchises.

So how'd they do head to head in the playoffs, when it mattered most?

They faced off in seven series against one another - one in the first round, four times in the conf semis, and twice in the conf finals.

Kobe and the Lakers would take four of them total to three for Duncan and SA. Only got to six games twice, with two reaching five games, and three sweeps.

Total games goes barely to the Lakers as well, 18-16.

So, make of that what you will..

[Pablo Diablo]

As I was about to go into the argument about having another Top 10 all time player on your team in Shaq I realized the Admiral didn't make it on the list (most likely)

Shame. He must be the one I sent in that Pippen (who I didn't put on) replaced.

[Percussion]

#8
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DzM4ba6UcAAJaXr.jpg
Bill Russell

Born: February 12, 1934
Years Active: 1956-1969
Height: 6'10 Weight: 215
College: University of San Francisco
Position: Center
Career Stats: 15.1 ppg, 22.5 rpg, 4.3 apg, --- spg, --- bpg, .440 fgp, --- 3pp, .561 ftp
12x All-Star, 3x All-NBA 1st Team, 1x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, 4x NBA Rebounding Leader 11x NBA Champion, 5x NBA MVP, HoF

Points: 169
Votes: 12
Ranked Highest by: 3puppies (3rd)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtLkvYhXgoE

[Fro]

Underrated fact: Bill Russell was the first black head coach in North American professional sports (1966).

[3puppies]

Two of you didn't include Russell in the top twenty? C'mon man. Championships matter.

[Fro]

5 MVPs also matter. He wasn't a product of his team, his team was a product of him.

I'll save my Bill Russell vs Wilt Chamberlain take for now, but I had Bill higher. It's another good debate of players from the same era. I'm not going to blame anyone for choosing either.

[_me]

They came into the league one year apart, left the same season, and each played their whole careers with one team in the same conference for power franchises.

So how'd they do head to head in the playoffs, when it mattered most?

They faced off in seven series against one another - one in the first round, four times in the conf semis, and twice in the conf finals.

Kobe and the Lakers would take four of them total to three for Duncan and SA. Only got to six games twice, with two reaching five games, and three sweeps.

Total games goes barely to the Lakers as well, 18-16.

So, make of that what you will..

Seems relevant that Kobe was only 13-21 against Duncan post-Shaq. Although the Lakers did win the only playoff matchup after Shaq.

I would take Shaq+Kobe over Duncan+Manu (or Parker) but if it just Duncan vs Kobe, I would take Duncan.

[_me]

Two of you didn't include Russell in the top twenty? C'mon man. Championships matter.
Championships might matter but does beating slow, white guys who can't jump or shoot really matter?

(Even after that, I would have had Russell 5th).

[_me]

Underrated fact: Bill Russell was the first black head coach in North American professional sports (1966).
I think some of the managers from the Negro Leagues would have a thing to say about that.

I thought he was the first black head coach to coach white players.

[Fro]

I think some of the managers from the Negro Leagues would have a thing to say about that.

I thought he was the first black head coach to coach white players.

I took that verbiage from wikipedia but you are right, I believe it should be first black head coach in any of the major north american pro sports leagues.

And there is also an exception to this which is Fritz Pollard, who was co-coach of the NFL's Akron Pros in 1921.

[Mazer]

5 MVPs also matter. He wasn't a product of his team, his team was a product of him.

I'll save my Bill Russell vs Wilt Chamberlain take for now, but I had Bill higher. It's another good debate of players from the same era. I'm not going to blame anyone for choosing either.

I got your back when its time for that debate.


But, I might end up blaming people.

[Mazer]

I hear the Popovich point come up for Timmy from time to time.

Kobe had Phil. MJ had Phil. Bill had Red. Magic had Pat. Kareem had Pat.


And Wilt had to drive his coaches insane.




Its Duncan over Kobe for me.

[Percussion]

#7
https://www.topnews.ru/upload/photo/6c2179c0/dacbe.jpg
Wilt Chamberlain

Born: August 21, 1936
Years Active: 1958-1973
Height: 7'1 Weight: 280
College: University of Kansas
Position: Center
Career Stats: 30.1 ppg, 22.9 rpg, 4.4 apg, --- spg, --- bpg, .540 fgp, --- 3pp, .511 ftp
13x All-Star, 7x All-NBA 1st Team, NBA RoY, 2x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, 7x NBA Scoring Champion,
11x NBA Rebounding Leader, 1x NBA Assist Leader, 2x NBA Champion, 1x Finals MVP, 4x NBA MVP, HoF

Points: 189
Votes: 14
Ranked Highest by: CWE (1st)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQDnkC1C-g4

[CWE]

#1 by MILES for me.

[_me]

#1 by MILES for me.
Now Wilt is actually someone who IS underrated. He is like the Babe Ruth of the NBA. He set every individual record possible, most of which will never be touched. But by all measures, he was also a truly selfish human being who only cared about himself.

[3puppies]

Some people collect stamps. Wilt collected women.

[Fro]

Wilt was the ultimate scorer in the regular season, but when you look at the postseason his numbers crash down to reality. Career points per game in the regular season versus the playoffs:

Wilt: 30.1 regular season, 22.5 playoffs (-7.6)
Russell: 15.1 regular season, 16.2 playoffs (+1.1)

That is an interesting drop off that you don't see with any of these other all time greats (at least not that I'm aware of). Russell held a 29-20 (W-L) edge in playoff games between he and Wilt, with Wilt's teams going 1-7 versus the Celtics in those 8 series.

Russell was an impressive 10-0 in his career in game 7's (including 4-0 versus Wilt in game 7's).

[_me]

No one doubts that the Celtics were the best team of the 60s. Every great player had a similar record against Russell's Celtics.

I actually think Russell's back-to-back NCAA titles and 55 straight wins (my old Spanish teacher was on that team he told us) and then a Gold Medal is more impressive than his NBA career. He didn't lose a competitive basketball game for over 2 years.

[Percussion]

Now Wilt is actually someone who IS underrated. He is like the Babe Ruth of the NBA. He set every individual record possible, most of which will never be touched. But by all measures, he was also a truly selfish human being who only cared about himself.

I think you hit the nail on the head as to why he's often looked over in the GOAT convos..


Championships might matter but does beating slow, white guys who can't jump or shoot really matter?

[Fro]

No one doubts that the Celtics were the best team of the 60s.

They would if those 8 series between Wilt and the Celtics went differently. The Celtics didn't cruise to all those titles with no competition. The Celtics had to get through Wilt, arguably the greatest basketball player ever to live, 8 times. 4 of those times it went to game 7.

Where does the slow white guys argument come into play with Wilt?

[Percussion]

Where does the slow white guys argument come into play with Wilt?

How does it differ from one to the other?

[Fro]

How does it differ from one to the other?

yes, right. we agree. I missed that you just made the same point.

[Percussion]

That's my bad, I read you wrong the first time..

[_me]

They would if those 8 series between Wilt and the Celtics went differently. The Celtics didn't cruise to all those titles with no competition. The Celtics had to get through Wilt, arguably the greatest basketball player ever to live, 8 times. 4 of those times it went to game 7.
They only had to win two series to win a title most seasons. They beat Wilt in the Eastern Finals, then they beat the Lakers in the NBA Finals. It wasn't "no competition" but it wasn't exactly a epic marathon either.


Where does the slow white guys argument come into play with Wilt?
Because most of the other guys on the court were slow white guys in the 60s.

[Fro]

Anyway like I said I won't blame anyone for having Wilt higher. It's a classic debate. And I of course agree that Bill Russel's 11 titles need to be put in context given that there were only 8 teams in the league at the start of his career. And everyone already takes that into context, otherwise having 11 titles and 5 MVPs would probably make him the easy GOAT.

In regard to the slow white guy argument, I don't have much to add because in truth I have never watched a full game of Bill Russell or Wilt Chamberlain. I wasn't watching those seasons to see how ridiculous it was for Wilt to score 50 points a game versus his competition, or for both of these guys to average 25 rebounds a game. But yea it was surely a different era, and these guys were completely dominant in it. Wilt more so with the personal stats/scoring, and Russell more so with leading his team to titles.

I had Russell 4th, and Wilt 7th.

[_me]

It was a joke as much as my hard opinion too.

Like you said, "played in the 60s" is a mental math we all do. But a more accurate stereotype is that they were less technically skilled rather than less physically talented (i.e they weren't really slow white guys). By the mid 60s, the athletic ability of the league was pretty good. But they had zero concept of "how" to play the game. They would take 20 foot running hook shots.

[Percussion]

They also played at a breakneck pace at around 125 possessions or so a game as opposed to 100 today. And that 100 today is recently up from the low to mid 90's in the last decade or so.

Extra possessions means extra shooting and rebounding opportunities. That in addition to less skilled players and you take an athletic marvel like Wilt or a very good athletic and brilliant basketball iq like Russell and voila - insane statistics of a truly unique era.

[_me]

Or like how Elgin Baylor was playing in the NBA on the weekends while he was still in the Army. Put up a 38/18.5 playing part-time in 1962.

[CWE]

Bill Russell played with 7 other Hall of Famers on that Celtics team and had arguably the greatest coach and team builder in sports history.

[Mazer]

Red was a great coach and true innovator. I need to read a good Red biography someday.

But its not like Wilt, in his various stops, was playing with the Washington Generals. Particularly when you account for how many Celts likely made into the HOF because of the ships vs. individual numbers.

[Percussion]

#6
https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.HMv5ExcxO2InpEdfcENRSwHaI6?pid=Api&rs=1
Larry Bird

Born: December 7, 1956
Years Active: 1979-1992
Height: 6'9 Weight: 220
College: Indiana State University
Position: Forward
Career Stats: 24.3 ppg, 10 rpg, 6.3 apg, 1.7 spg, .8 bpg, .496 fgp, .376 3pp, .886 ftp
12x All-Star, 9x All-NBA 1st Team, NBA RoY, 2x 50-40-90 Club, 3x NBA Champion, 2x Finals MVP, 3x NBA MVP, HoF

Points: 192
Votes: 14
Ranked Highest by: Percussion, Randolph, Stan Accy, CWE (5th)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI470DZhojA

[Percussion]

Recap..

6. Larry Bird
7. Wilt Chamberlain
8. Bill Russell
9. Tim Duncan
10. Shaquille O'Neal
11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Julius Erving
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Jerry West
15. Steph Curry
16. Scottie Pippen
17. Karl Malone
18. Kevin Durant
19. Dirk Nowitzki
20. Charles Barkley

[Percussion]

And while we're on the subject of dudes who've grown to become underrated..

[CWE]

The GOAT of whiteboy ballers.

[CWE]

Shooting contest. Larry Bird or Steph Curry?

I pick Bird. Who you got?

[Pablo Diablo]

My first instinct is Steph all day. But Bird really was that good of a shooter as well.

I think I still stick with Steph though.

[Tyson]

In the interest of transparency, I include my submitted list:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. LeBron James
4. Bill Russell
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Julius Erving
7. Magic Johnson
8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Larry Bird
10. Tim Duncan
11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Shaquille O’Neal
13. Scotty Pippen
14. Isiah Thomas
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Steph Curry
17. Moses Malone
18. Oscar Robertson
19. Jerry West
20. Steve Nash

This was a really fun exercise, I tried to weight individual and team success equally. I attempted to compare across multiple generations despite really only becoming a hoops fan towards the tail end of MJ’s career.

So far as the 20 spot on my list, there were a lot of great options. I ultimately went with a slightly homerish pick, throwing my boy Captain Canada a spot a little higher than what he probably deserves. Fuck it: Hall of Famer, two time MVP, revolutionized the Point Guard position, was one of the top players in the league for a handful of years. He’s probably not a top-20 guy, but has very strong merits for top-50. A damn shame he couldn’t get a ‘ship as a player, the hazards of playing in a brutally strong Western Conference back in the day.

[3puppies]

Bird is better than Steph as a shooter. I might give Steph the edge as a 3 point shooter, but Bird had an incredible way of getting ridiculous shots off , anywhere on the court and even while heavily defended.

I am surprised at those who voted Bird higher than Wilt or Russell (and still sore that 2 left Russell out of their top twenty).

Bird was the first player I hung a poster of up on my teenage wall. He had a pretty awesome cast to work with, but he got the very best out of them.

Then again, Bird is from French Lick, Indiana, which as everyone from Hanover Indiana knows, is the dufus capital of Indiana.

College. Pro. Olympic. Coach. GM. The guy won championships in every role.

[Mazer]

I give Steph the edge has a pure shooter. Career 3 pt %, 2 pt%, and FT % (which is one thing at least that hasn't changed), all higher.

People forget what a great rebounder Larry was. 10 boards a game. Additionally, 6+assists a game (and some years where he was in the 7s) as a forward. Point forward before we knew what that was. 3 consecutive MVPS in a loaded era.

Properly rated right here.

[CWE]

I give Steph the edge has a pure shooter. Career 3 pt %, 2 pt%, and FT % (which is one thing at least that hasn't changed), all higher.

People forget what a great rebounder Larry was. 10 boards a game. Additionally, 6+assists a game (and some years where he was in the 7s) as a forward. Point forward before we knew what that was. 3 consecutive MVPS in a loaded era.

Properly rated right here.

Steph has a higher % because it's illegal to even look at shooters now. Put him in the 80s and he is dead. Put Bird in today's game and he is untouchable.

[Mazer]

It's a legit point. Not as if Steph is just shooting for percentage though. He jacks shots that are low percentage for most anyone else.

He basically redefined range.

Steph would get brutalized when he drove in the 80s. But when he started pulling up 5 feet behind the line, DJ's head would explode.

[CWE]

I mean no hate for Curry. He is a legendary shooter. Both in volume and accuracy. Him and LeBron are the top 2 current day players that could have made my list.

[Randolph]

You make it sound like Steph and Lebron aren't on your list.

[CWE]

No active player made my list

[_me]

No active player made my list
I didn't submit a list just because I couldn't figure out where to slot Steph and KD. I had the entire list done but just couldn't figure out what to do with them

LBJ is a different category already so I didn't have the issue with him.

[_me]

The GOAT of whiteboy ballers.
"Zeke from Cabin Creek" would like a word even if he probably does agree it is Bird at the end (I had Jerry at 10; Larry at 7)

[_me]

Since no one was asking and no one cares…

My Top 20 (missing Steph and KD since I didn't know what to do with them)

1. LBJ. (Made the NBA Finals more often than he missed them (10-7). How is that even possible?)
2. MJ.
3. KAJ.
4. Magic.
5. Russell
6. Wilt.
7. Bird
8. Kobe.
9. Duncan.
10. West
11. Hakeem
12. Shaq.
13. Oscar.
14. Dr J.
15. Moses
16. Elgin
17. Havelicek
18. Barkley.
TBA Steph and KD

Probably too skewed to the past. Players now are better but just haven't "achieved" what the older guys have.

[TimeSplitter]

Only one active player made my list. This has been really fun to follow.

To answer some questions earlier, I had Oscar Robertson and Jerry West higher on my list because of my grandpa. He was lucky enough to go to a few of their games, and the way he talked about watching them play was incredbile to listen to as a child. He was telling my brothers and I these stories during the height of Michael Jordan, so that is why I hold them higher than everyone else.

[Fro]

Bird is better than Steph as a shooter. I might give Steph the edge as a 3 point shooter, but Bird had an incredible way of getting ridiculous shots off , anywhere on the court and even while heavily defended.

I would agree with this. Bird is the better all around shooter. Steph is the better deep ball shooter.

Bird maybe could have been as good if the 3 point line existed before his rookie year in the NBA.

[Dreyski]

I am surprised at those who voted Bird higher than Wilt or Russell (and still sore that 2 left Russell out of their top twenty).


One of those two was probably me. Didn't grow up learning about famous basketball players from that time. The first one I remember hearing about was either Magic or Bird.

[Percussion]

I am surprised at those who voted Bird higher than Wilt or Russell

Considering only 4 of 14 lists had both Wilt and Russell ahead of Bird it really becomes a lot less surprising..

I think Wilt and Bill were amazing in their era and would be good to great big men in any other.

I think Larry is a top 5-10 all-timer in any era. And if his career were today we might be considering a new GOAT by the end of it.

[Percussion]

#5
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/1216/la_u_bryant52_cr_400.jpg
Kobe Bryant

Born: August 23, 1978
Years Active: 1996-2016
Height: 6'6 Weight: 212
Prior to NBA: Lower Marion High School
Position: Shooting Guard
Career Stats: 25 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1.4 spg, .5 bpg, .447 fgp, .329 3pp, .837 ftp
18x All-Star, 11x All-NBA 1st Team, 9x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, 2x NBA Scoring Champion, 5x NBA Champion, 2x Finals MVP, 1x NBA MVP, HoF

Points: 208
Votes: 14
Ranked Highest by: Chris Scott, hithit, Tyson (2nd)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjAiCm7fWV8

[Pablo Diablo]

*Throws anything into anything else*

KOBE!

[Randolph]

Wow much lower than I thought.

[_me]

If the top 4 was not MJ, KAJ, Magic and LeBron the list really wouldn't be accurate. I would have also put Kobe behind Wilt and Russell too. But anywhere after that seems very fair.

[Percussion]

Took me a while to come around to Kobe, most likely because of his whole 'cover band' style. I was a young Jordan admirer and this kid wasn't wowing me as merely his imitator. But as time wore on and his consistency continued and his own brand of killer instinct bore through and we learned more about him on a human level, and particularly after he did it more his way for the latter two titles.. well fuck, I definitely started to warm up.

I had him number seven. All-time talent, fantastic story, and terrific dude.

[Chris Scott]

5th WOW? Expected him to easily land in the top 3.

[_me]

5th WOW? Expected him to easily land in the top 3.
Who don't you rate: Magic or Kareem?

[LOCONUT]

Joke list. Top 10 all time greats are all Lakers and maybe Jordan as one of them.

[Chris Scott]

Who don't you rate: Magic or Kareem?

I had Magic 5th on my list

[_me]

I had Magic 5th on my list
I think Magic is closer to 1 than to 5. Magic is underrated if anything. In the 11 seasons he started and finished, his team made the NBA Finals 8 times and won 5.

[Percussion]

I had Magic 5th on my list

Was Kareem a brainfart or intentional?

[Fro]

I had kobe ahead of Lebron but behind magic and Kareem. I somewhat wish I put Kobe higher but I was swayed by all those MVPs and accolades of those other 2 lakers greats.

[_me]

I feel like the top 3 (MJ, Kareem and Magic) + LeBron are another tier above the rest.

[Fro]

Kobe was a greater basketball player than LeBron James has been to this point, in my opinion. Even though LeBron is the better all around player.

[Fro]

Kobe was the most devastating celebrity death ever for me. I can't believe he died like that. RIP Mamba.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx2inwUj_F0

[_me]

Kobe was a greater basketball player than LeBron James has been to this point, in my opinion. Even though LeBron is the better all around player.
What skill at basketball did Kobe have over LeBron? LeBron is a better scorer, a better defender, a better shooter.

[Randolph]

What skill at basketball did Kobe have over LeBron? LeBron is a better scorer, a better defender, a better shooter.

A better lover

[Pablo Diablo]

Free throws

[Fro]

What skill at basketball did Kobe have over LeBron? LeBron is a better scorer, a better defender, a better shooter.

kobe is a better scorer and shooter than lebron.

[_me]

Free throws
I am not sure that trumps being worse at everything else but you are correct.

[_me]

kobe is a better scorer and shooter than lebron.
By what measure? LeBron averages more points and shoots a higher percentage.

LeBron 27.1(PPG) 50.1(FGs) 34.4(3s)
Kobe 25.0(PPG) 44.7(FGs) 32.9(3s)

[Fro]

By what measure? LeBron averages more points and shoots a higher percentage.

LeBron 27.1(PPG) 50.1(FGs) 34.4(3s)
Kobe 25.0(PPG) 44.7(FGs) 32.9(3s)

by the eyeball measure

[_me]

He definitely took more shots. I will give you that one.

Volume shooters are my least favorite players ever. I never rate them highly. Harden, Kobe, Melo, AI, etc.

Not for this all-time list of course, but if we were just picking a starting five, I would strongly consider taking someone like Klay over Kobe. Especially if I had another wing scorer or a PG who dominated the ball.

[Percussion]

Is fearlessness a skill?

[Pablo Diablo]

I think LeBron is better than Kobe, but there is no universe where I take Klay over Kobe, doesn't matter who is on my team.

Also if you want to go by your stats _me

Kobe 19.5 FGA per game
LeBron 19.6 FGA per game

Guess you ain't picking LeBron either.

[_me]

Is fearlessness a skill?
I know exactly what you mean and I would say yes. And that is a great call. Short of MJ, no one believed in themselves as much as Kobe. And that does matter when measuring "greatness". That is LeBron's greatest weakness probably.

[_me]

I think LeBron is better than Kobe, but there is no universe where I take Klay over Kobe, doesn't matter who is on my team.

Also if you want to go by your stats _me

Kobe 19.5 FGA per game
LeBron 19.6 FGA per game

Guess you ain't picking LeBron either.
I was thinking long-term fantasy draft/auction strategy. Take Klay last/cheap so you can take 3 great players instead. Let other people chase the name.

EDIT: That actually sounds fun. After this is done, anyone want to do an all-time fantasy auction/draft? (Maybe a little mini tourney we vote on to see who wins?)

[Fro]

I was thinking long-term fantasy draft/auction strategy. Take Klay last/cheap so you can take 3 great players instead.

Exactly. Kobe is one of those great players and Klay is one of those cheap players. If klay is the best player on your team you’re not winning any titles

[Percussion]

#4
https://n.sinaimg.cn/sinakd20200620ac/297/w640h457/20200620/8fa7-ivffpcs9585807.jpg
Magic Johnson

Born: August 14, 1959
Years Active: 1979-1991, 1996
Height: 6'9 Weight: 225
College: Michigan State University
Position: Point Guard
Career Stats: 19.5 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 11.2 apg, 1.9 spg, .4 bpg, .520 fgp, .303 3pp, .848 ftp
12x All-Star, 9x All-NBA 1st Team, 4x NBA Assist Leader, 2x NBA Steals Leader, 5x NBA Champion, 3x Finals MVP, 3x NBA MVP, HoF

Points: 213
Votes: 14
Ranked Highest by: Fro, Stan Accy (3rd)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XggZZA4q9Yo

[Fro]

Part of the reason I voted magic over kobe.... he did all this by age 31 when he had to retire due to HIV.

what if he never got sick

[Percussion]

Fairly certain he was the first athlete I had poster'd on my wall..

[Tyson]

Kobe was the most devastating celebrity death ever for me. I can't believe he died like that. RIP Mamba.

When Boston sportsfan says this, that is something. Kobe died this past January and 2020 really went downhill from there.

To me, Percussion/Me talking about Kobe’s fearlessness is exactly why I will forever be on the Kobe > LeBron train. Kobe essentially blew up a partnership with Shaq that should have been good for numerous other ‘ships because A) Kobe was sick of Shaq’s casual bullshit and B) there was only one ball and it was his. The MJ “I took that personally” clip from “The Last Dance”, Kobe is only other NBA superstar who burned that hot.

LeBron stabbed the state of Ohio in the back to join Chris Bosh on Dwayne Wade’s team. Kobe would not have done that. How many countless times did LeBron, at 6’8” 260, defer to others at the end of a game? Kobe didn’t do that. Kobe was like “Fuck y’all, I will go 1-on-5 and do this my goddamn self”. Kobe, like Mike, was a straight killer whereas LeBron is not.

RIP Mamba.

[Chris Scott]

Was Kareem a brainfart or intentional?

Yeah I actually totally forgot about Kareem, was convinced I had him 4th. Fucked up there.

[Chris Scott]

I think Magic is closer to 1 than to 5. Magic is underrated if anything. In the 11 seasons he started and finished, his team made the NBA Finals 8 times and won 5.

He probably is and I mostly went on me growing up watching MJ, then Kobe and finally LJ to have them my top 3.

[_me]

When Boston sportsfan says this, that is something. Kobe died this past January and 2020 really went downhill from there.

To me, Percussion/Me talking about Kobe’s fearlessness is exactly why I will forever be on the Kobe > LeBron train. Kobe essentially blew up a partnership with Shaq that should have been good for numerous other ‘ships because A) Kobe was sick of Shaq’s casual bullshit and B) there was only one ball and it was his. The MJ “I took that personally” clip from “The Last Dance”, Kobe is only other NBA superstar who burned that hot.

LeBron stabbed the state of Ohio in the back to join Chris Bosh on Dwayne Wade’s team. Kobe would not have done that. How many countless times did LeBron, at 6’8” 260, defer to others at the end of a game? Kobe didn’t do that. Kobe was like “Fuck y’all, I will go 1-on-5 and do this my goddamn self”. Kobe, like Mike, was a straight killer whereas LeBron is not.

RIP Mamba.
I don't even really like Kobe and his death even hit _me. That afternoon was absolutely surreal.

Kobe did try to get traded from the Lakers multiple times let's remember though.

[3puppies]

I had Kobe above Magic because of that incredible need to be better than everyone else. But with my East Coast bias, I'd take Russell and Bird ahead of any two Lakers (which is hard to say given how much I respect Kareem).

[Honey_Badger]

Kobe, Magic, Kareem and Lebron... all Lakers.

Jordan... fuck the Lakers.

[Percussion]

#3
https://www.awesomepostersonline.com/uploads/2018-09-19/c638e6ff/428b436b965.jpg
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Born: April 16, 1947
Years Active: 1969-1989
Height: 7'2 Weight: 225
College: University of California, Los Angeles
Position: Center
Career Stats: 24.6 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 3.6 apg, .9 spg, 2.6 bpg, .559 fgp, .056 3pp, .721 ftp
19x All-Star, 10x All-NBA 1st Team, 5x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, NBA RoY, 2x NBA Scoring Champion,
1x NBA Rebounding Leader, 4x NBA Blocks Leader, 6x NBA Champion, 2x Finals MVP, 6x NBA MVP, HoF

Points: 214
Votes: 13
Ranked Highest by: Percussion, Mr. Boombastic, Fro (2nd)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxm88cFu6UM

[3puppies]

Kobe, Magic, Kareem and Lebron... all Lakers.

Jordan... fuck the Lakers.

Why does everyone seem to forget that Wilt was a Laker as well?

[Pablo Diablo]

We're talking about the people who are top 5 in our list.

[_me]

Kinda amazing that no one else could ever successfully use the skyhook regularly.

[Percussion]

It was a terrific shot really. Hell, Magic full on imitated Kareem with it in the Finals. I've seen Olajuwon and even Yao Ming attempt it to some success here or there. Not sure about other big men through the years.

But Dr. J, Dominique, and Jordan showed everyone how sexy it was to fly and eventually Steph would introduce the idea of taking 3's from across the street and analytics would tell us that only 3's and plays at the rim mattered.. and poof, back to the basket play was gone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6IlAezpgws

[Chris Scott]

I apologise to Kareem

[_me]

It was a terrific shot really. Hell, Magic full on imitated Kareem with it in the Finals. I've seen Olajuwon and even Yao Ming attempt it to some success here or there. Not sure about other big men through the years.

But Dr. J, Dominique, and Jordan showed everyone how sexy it was to fly and eventually Steph would introduce the idea of taking 3's from across the street and analytics would tell us that only 3's and plays at the rim mattered.. and poof, back to the basket play was gone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6IlAezpgws
I just assumed at least one gigantic slow Euro/S American would have mastered it eventually. Some one like Darko probably would have been great at it if he spent 5 years at it.

[Percussion]

Looking back I could see guys like Rik Smits or Avydas Sabonis having a go at it.

But ultimately I think it's just to Kareem's credit. He made an all-time GOAT level career in part to pulling off a move that no one else could quite do.

[Mazer]

Why does everyone seem to forget that Wilt was a Laker as well?

Because the quality of teammate/coaching argument only counts if its against Bill Russell or Tim Duncan.

[Mazer]

Glad to see Kareem got 3 here. Sometimes now I've seen lists with him at 6 or so, and it makes me irrational.

3 is properly rated.

[Percussion]

Because the quality of teammate/coaching argument only counts if its against Bill Russell or Tim Duncan.

Nobody credits Wilt first and foremost for his rings..

[Mazer]

Nobody credits Wilt first and foremost for his rings..

True. The more accurate answer would be because he played on multiple teams, and you could make an argument that as a player defined by stats, many memories of his most significant ones don't come as a Laker

Bit of a joke, but also a shot at how we siphon out some players for that, typically if "winning" is among their prime factors or their games weren't as "sexy". I've just always felt it was a bit of a silly knock that isn't universally applied. The mid 80s Celtics and Lakers were amazing talents, but we typically don't siphon Bird and Magic out for the quality of their teammates like we do Duncan or Bill. Just a bit of silliness to me.

Plus I couldn't resist having cwe see me take another shot at Wilt.

[CWE]

Plus I couldn't resist having cwe see me take another shot at Wilt.

:squint:

[Percussion]

Also interesting about the skyhook was that it came about in large part due to the NCAA banning dunking the ball because of Jabbar's dominant use of it. He then simply told college basketball to hold his beer while he developed the most unstoppable shot the game has had.

Legend shit.

[Percussion]

#2
https://cdntwrunning.biji.co/800_1afe221acd805f163c1a6cc2cb1e0b2f.jpg
LeBron James

Born: December 30, 1984
Years Active: 2003-present
Height: 6'9 Weight: 255
Prior to NBA: St. Vincent-St. Mary High School
Position: Forward
Career Stats: 27.1 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 7.4 apg, 1.6 spg, .8 bpg, .504 fgp, .344 3pp, .734 ftp
16x All-Star, 13x All-NBA 1st Team, 5x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team, NBA RoY,
1x NBA Scoring Champion, 1x NBA Assist Leader, 4x NBA Champion, 4x Finals MVP, 4x NBA MVP

Points: 229
Votes: 13
Ranked Highest by: 3puppies (1st)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWOBdR-ibS4

[Pablo Diablo]

Alright CWE,

I was waiting for him to come up before I asked.

How do you leave him off your list? I understand he's still writing his story, but I don't know how there's anything he can do to not be a Top 5 player in NBA history let alone not be one of the 20 greatest.

[CWE]

Alright CWE,

I was waiting for him to come up before I asked.

How do you leave him off your list? I understand he's still writing his story, but I don't know how there's anything he can do to not be a Top 5 player in NBA history let alone not be one of the 20 greatest.

Because I never rate players until they are done. Same reason Tom Brady isn't in my top 10 QBs ever. Yet.

[CWE]

And if his (James, not Brady) career ended today, he's still not in my top 5.