Liverpool's second best player

[RFF Champ]

Assuming we all accept VVD is Liverpool's single best player, who have you got for second best?

For me, it's Mane. Even though he didn't play particularly well last night he showed his pace for the ball behind is so dangerous and his ability to run with the ball moves the team up the field and allows the full backs to have their influence. His actual goal contribution for the position he plays is class too.

Who do you think is Liverpool's second best player?

[The Rosk]

Yet you wanted rid of him in RFF????????????????? FFFFFFFFFFFFSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

The answer is, as always, James Milner.

[son_of_foley]

Alisson for me.

One of the best in his world at his position. Improves the whole backline including VVD by being predictable and commanding. Makes great saves.

The wild thing about this is there's probably about 6/7 players who you could make an argument for and that shows how strong/level their first XI is

[Murphy]

Don't watch too much these days, but T A-A's figures are ridiculous.

[Chris Scott]

Erm Henderson is 1st mate.

As for 2nd defo Mane, as much as VVD has transformed our defence with a bit of help too, Mane has been our most consistent player for 3 years now.

[son_of_foley]

Listen Chris I hate doing this to you but Jordan Henderson is really not that good.

[Gangers]

Difficult to look past Trent's attacking returns as well as being part of an until recently very impressive defence. But Mane is a good shout too.

[son_of_foley]

Poor Andy Robertson.

23 assists in 86 games against TAA 25 in 83. Not even in the conversation

[wardy]

Robertson needs to start performing for Scotland and stop pulling out of squads because he has toothache. John McGinn always turns up, gets MOTM in every game and has a head like a Pokémon. If he can do it then so can Robertson.

[Gangers]

Shouldn't be so bloody Scottish then should he

[Murphy]

Poor Andy Robertson.

23 assists in 86 games against TAA 25 in 83. Not even in the conversation

I almost mentioned him when I brought up Trent. Almost. :D

[RFF Champ]

TAA always seems to be in an acre of space to touch the ball and measure his cross. Robertson always seems to be shuttling back and forth trying to beat men and getting back to defend.

[Romford Pele]

No Salah love? I still think he has the quality and pace to be Liverpool's best player.

He hasn't quite reached that peak of 17-18 but I still think on his day he is unplayable.

Firmino is arguably the most important player to Liverpool, though not the 'best'.

[RFF Champ]

Of the conversation I think Firmino and Alisson are at the bottom of the list for me. If offered the rumoured 80mil for Firmino I'd snap their hand off. He's a number 9 that doesn't score goals and I think his output is replaceable.

[Pablo Diablo]

The refs.

(and yes I fully see the hypocrisy of a VARchester United fan saying that)

[MMH]

They are all shite.

[MMH]

Of the conversation I think Firmino and Alisson are at the bottom of the list for me. If offered the rumoured 80mil for Firmino I'd snap their hand off. He's a number 9 that doesn't score goals and I think his output is replaceable.

His work allows others to score goals.

Good player Firminho. Despicable face but a good player.

[RFF Champ]

Sure, good player but not worth the amount he was being touted for. They did just fine without him when he was out last year and Salah stepped in. Of the players I'd worry about leaving if I were a Liverpool fan he'd be pretty low on my list.

[Romford Pele]

Of the conversation I think Firmino and Alisson are at the bottom of the list for me. If offered the rumoured 80mil for Firmino I'd snap their hand off. He's a number 9 that doesn't score goals and I think his output is replaceable.

Is Alisson that replaceable? Liverpool had average goalkeepers for a number of years before he came in.

I don't who you would buy who would be as good or better than him.

[RFF Champ]

I don't particularly rate the input of goalkeepers that highly. It seemed as though Arsene Wenger said Petr Cech was worth 9 points a season and it prompted English clubs to go and spend stupid money on goalkeepers; mostly making minimal difference. Point in case would be Southampton who are paying large wages for three goalkeepers.

I think most teams could use homegrown goalkeepers and invest in other more important positions and improve the side as a whole.

[RFF Champ]

I should say that followed a period in the Premier League where teams were prepared to sign older goalies on a free and did pretty well. Thinking Sorensen at Stoke, Schwarzer at Fulham and Friedel at a couple of clubs. It's fashionable now to overpay for young goalies when previously a solid citizen that could communicate and didn't palm it in his own net proved better value.

[Chris Scott]

Of the conversation I think Firmino and Alisson are at the bottom of the list for me. If offered the rumoured 80mil for Firmino I'd snap their hand off. He's a number 9 that doesn't score goals and I think his output is replaceable.

Agreed about Firmino, he’s the glue for Mane & Salah. So underrated in the team. Hopefully next season he goes back to his number ten position.

[Chris Scott]

Listen Chris I hate doing this to you but Jordan Henderson is really not that good.

Haha but mate he is actually is. In our system and the way we tick, he’s so important.

[Simon]

I'd probably go Mane, but it's very difficult to say. Alisson, Henderson, Robertson, Trent, Wijnaldum, Fabinho, Firmino and Salah are all key to the way Liverpool play...it's really only the second centre back (Gomez for me, but Matip is good too) that doesn't seem like an essential element of the team.

Would be interesting to open this thread out to other teams. For Tottenham I'd go...

1. Kane
2. Son
3. Alderweireld
4. Lo Celso
5. Winks

[Murphy]

Early days and all, but Ndombele looks to be a bit of a fat lazy fucker to me.

And quite the fee they spunked on him too.

[Simon]

He's infuriating. I mean look at last night - we were dreadful, slow, insipid for almost the entire game. He comes on and immediately lifts us with his positive passing through the lines and ability to commit players and go past them...for about ten minutes, then he's fucked and we're not only back to playing shit, but essentially playing with 10 and a half men because he can't be bothered running.

Lo Celso on the other hand has been excellent recently.

[Murphy]

Almost nothing to be excited about with Spurs right now, but Lo Celso is one. Looks class.

[Simon]

There's the basis of a very good team there - Sanchez, Alderweireld, Winks, Ndombele (if they can get him fit and motivated), Lo Celso, Kane, Son - but I have no faith right now that we are going to build on that, and if you believe the reports we might be going the other way with Kane considering leaving.

[wardy]

I had Lo Celso in my champ manager game and he was class. He led Argentina to the last 16 of the World Cup then inexplicably retired from football before the game.

[son_of_foley]

Haha but mate he is actually is. In our system and the way we tick, he’s so important.

I will die on this hill. He's bang average and often fucks the weight of his passes and slows it down.

At his best when he's instinctive in my books. If Benjani was a midfielder.

YEAH I SAID IT SO WHAT

[wardy]

For Celtic's top 5 it would be:

1. Edouard
2. Forster

... then fuck knows because everyone is so off the boil. Elyounoussi, Ntcham, Forrest, Christie, McGregor and Frimpong would all be in with a shout but it's so changeable at the moment.

[Murphy]

There's the basis of a very good team there - Sanchez, Alderweireld, Winks, Ndombele (if they can get him fit and motivated), Lo Celso, Kane, Son - but I have no faith right now that we are going to build on that, and if you believe the reports we might be going the other way with Kane considering leaving.

You've always been more optimistic than me when it comes to Spurs. I always see the bad. Which really goes against how I feel in general.

As to Kane though, his injury proneness might be a big factor in him getting a truly great move, but he's surely considering his options right now.

[Romford Pele]

I'd probably go Mane, but it's very difficult to say. Alisson, Henderson, Robertson, Trent, Wijnaldum, Fabinho, Firmino and Salah are all key to the way Liverpool play...it's really only the second centre back (Gomez for me, but Matip is good too) that doesn't seem like an essential element of the team.

Would be interesting to open this thread out to other teams. For Tottenham I'd go...

1. Kane
2. Son
3. Alderweireld
4. Lo Celso
5. Winks

Arsenal:-

1. Auba
2. Leno
3. Torreria
4. Saka
5. Martinelli

[Chris Scott]

I will die on this hill. He's bang average and often fucks the weight of his passes and slows it down.

At his best when he's instinctive in my books. If Benjani was a midfielder.

YEAH I SAID IT SO WHAT

But how you rate Johnny Evans(who I think is very good btw) is exactly how Jordan Henderson is. This season and most of last he’s been quality. Have you not seen how his assist have been?

[Simon]

You've always been more optimistic than me when it comes to Spurs. I always see the bad. Which really goes against how I feel in general.

As to Kane though, his injury proneness might be a big factor in him getting a truly great move, but he's surely considering his options right now.

You can't really blame him, can you? I mean look at what Bale and Modric achieved when they left us. Then look at King, who stayed loyal - granted his injuries may have stopped him from making a big move in his later years, but he had offers when he was younger, turned them down and ended up with two league cup wins to show for his entire career. If Kane never wins anything, he'll go down as another Le Tissier, without even having the romantic element of scoring hundreds of ridiculously amazing goals.

Gonna do a couple more...

NORWICH
1. Cantwell
2. Aarons
3. Godfrey

ASTON VILLA
1. Grealish
2. Grealish McGinn
3. Grealish Heaton

CITY
1. De Bruyne
2. Aguero
3. Bernardo

UNITED
1. Fernandes
2. Rashford
3. McTominay

CHELSEA
1. Kovacic
2. Jorginho
3. Rudiger
(Kante would be top, but seems to have gone to shit this season)

WOLVES
1. Jota
2. Jimenez
3. Traore

LEICESTER
1. Ricardo
2. Vardy
3. Maddison

SHEFF UTD
1. Lundstram
2. Fleck
3. Egan

[JimboWay6]

Peterborough -

No, nobody cares.

Liverpool - Mane.

[Simon]

Peterborough -

No, nobody cares.



1. Frazer Blake-Tracey
2. Christy Pym
3. Serhat Tasdemir

[RFF Champ]

1 Toney
2 Szmodics
3 Kent

[JimboWay6]

1 Toney
2 Szmodics
3 Kent

This seems a good start. Sammie has made a big difference. I'd probably go -

1 Toney
2 Kent
3 Szomodics
4 Beevers
5 Pym

[RFF Champ]

Norwich's best player and player who will go furthest is to me unquestionably Buendia.

[JimboWay6]

1. Frazer Blake-Tracey
2. Christy Pym
3. Serhat Tasdemir

Well done Simon. Proud of you.

[RFF Champ]

Definitely disagree with Lundstram for Sheffield United too. He couldn't get a game in the Championship and they moved swiftly to replace him when he became such a key position by January.

Something like for me:

1 Henderson
2 Stevens
3 Norwood

[Gangers]

WOLVES
1. Jota
2. Jimenez
3. Traore

Big case of recency bias here - Jota isn't in the top three, probably not even top five. It's more like:

1. Moutinho
2. Jimenez
3. Boly

Jota and Traore are hard to rank because they're so inconsistent. Jota was absolutely dreadful between October and December and started losing his place to Pedro Neto.

Traore is unplayable when he gets going but still shanks plenty of crosses out for goal kicks.

[RFF Champ]

Boly is so good. He's the only one of the Wolves centre backs I'd have any faith in being decent outside of that team/system.

[Gangers]

Yeah that's probably fair. I think Coady has been brilliant at times but the discussions of an England call up are a bit fanciful. I also think Romain Saiss has been playing above himself recently but you may be right that it's the system helping him out to an extent.

Coady was originally a midfielder and it shows - great range of passing but definitely prone to the occasional brain fart defensively.

[Simon]

Big case of recency bias here - Jota isn't in the top three, probably not even top five. It's more like:

1. Moutinho
2. Jimenez
3. Boly

Jota and Traore are hard to rank because they're so inconsistent. Jota was absolutely dreadful between October and December and started losing his place to Pedro Neto.

Traore is unplayable when he gets going but still shanks plenty of crosses out for goal kicks.

Fair point, I'm not going entirely on this season but I think you do have to weight it towards recent times at least to some point. I mean Eric Dier was a fantastic defensive midfielder three years ago, now he has to go wading into the crowd just to get people to remember his name.

I honestly think with Traore it's just a case of it having clicked with him, and he's now the player he always could have been. I don't think it's just a good run of form. Moutinho would have been fourth for me, and I think Jota has been class for ages so him and Jimenez would definitely be vying for top spot IMO. Mad that we aren't even talking about Jonny, Neves, Patricio, Doherty or Coady. Christ they've got such a good side now.

[RFF Champ]

Yeah that's probably fair. I think Coady has been brilliant at times but the discussions of an England call up are a bit fanciful. I also think Romain Saiss has been playing above himself recently but you may be right that it's the system helping him out to an extent.

Coady was originally a midfielder and it shows - great range of passing but definitely prone to the occasional brain fart defensively.

A midfielder that looked out of place in League One no less. His transformation has been incredible but I don't think he's a Premier League quality player outside of that system, yet alone an international one. One big benefit he has is his huge leadership influence.

[Gangers]

Without Moutinho the whole thing basically falls apart. He's the lynchpin, will be very tough to replace. But yeah, it's amazing how good their first team is. No really obvious areas for improvement, just need more depth really.

[RFF Champ]

Jonny is the one player that isn't helped by the system at all. I think he'd be a genuinely top class left back elsewhere but he looks out of place in the attacking side. I'd be surprised if Vinagre wasn't rightful first choice at this stage next year, he looks really exciting.

[Gangers]

Yeah he's probably the obvious candidate to replace, along with Saiss. Good player but is nowhere near as effective as Doherty on the opposite side. To be totally fair he's a right footed player playing at LWB. Vinagre could replace him for sure.

[RFF Champ]

With another year in the Prem you'd expect things are a bit clearer for FFP and Fosun will start splashing the cash in the summer. Nuno was clearly miffed they didn't back him in January.

[Gangers]

In all fairness, he never used Cutrone and hasn't used Podence yet either. The only new signing this season that has made any impact at all is Neto and even that's been in fits and starts.

[Fanny Batter]

Even as is, they'll run very close for 4th. Obviously we're getting to the part of the season where the likelihood in dropping points to struggling teams are higher, but I like their run in. The home fixtures in particular, if they can run the slate (Brighton, Bournemouth, Arsenal, Everton, Palace) they're in great shape. They've started converting the draws into wins, scoring more goals, and look tidy defensively. Some tough away fixtures, with West Ham and Villa desperate and Chelsea, Burnley and Sheffield United fellow competitors for a European place at the very least. On paper though, strong - already played City, Leicester, Liverpool, Spurs and United home and away, 4 of the 10 teams they're playing are in the bottom 6, Arsenal's away form this season hasn't been good, and there's the feeling that Burnley and Sheffield United are overachieving being in the position they're in. Throw in Chelsea's shambolic league form and Everton always looking likely to ship a couple and it all looks very promising. The Europa League will most likely stretch them too far though and games like Palace at home will turn into frustrating stalemates. That's not discounting that they could win the thing, of course.

[Gangers]

It's definitely getting to the point where it almost starts to look like a missed opportunity if they don't, for precisely those reasons - their run in is really gentle. I think they'll blow Brighton away this weekend.

It would be WAY ahead of schedule to finish in the CL spots but it would help keep players like Jimenez and attract other big talents.

[Simon]

What would you say Wolves need? Another centre back, maybe a right back as Doherty hasn't been quite as good this season...then just bang the rest on squad depth? Neto looks mustard too.

[MMH]

1. Richarlison
2. Gomes
3. Calvert-Lewin
4. Holgate
5. Walcott

Walcott is in no way one of our best players, he is incredibly frustrating and always almost does something great but never quite does. However we look a much weaker team when we play without him as the opposition always accounts for his pace and movement which means they dont flood down our right side (which is defensively awful).

The rest are pretty obvious I reckon.

[son_of_foley]

Norwich's best player and player who will go furthest is to me unquestionably Buendia.

Agreed

[Gangers]

What would you say Wolves need? Another centre back, maybe a right back as Doherty hasn't been quite as good this season...then just bang the rest on squad depth? Neto looks mustard too.

Yeah exactly that really. Another really good centre back is the most obvious upgrade they could make. Some proper backup for Jimenez, if he got injured it would be a disaster.

Between Dendoncker, Gibbs-White, Neto, Podence and Saiss they'd have some capable subs.

[Murphy]

Walcott has always been a great athlete. That's about it.

[Gangers]

Well done for sparking a bit of discussion anyway Simon :yes:

[Simon]

Well Alex made the thread. This is our Stanley Matthews/Stan Mortensen moment, he's in the record books but those who were there know who the real hero is.

[Pablo Diablo]

Not even sure with United where I’d rank the players.

Since he’s arrived Bruno is number one by a long shot though.

[RFF Champ]

Maguire is easily top 3 Utd players

[Gangers]

Well Alex made the thread. This is our Stanley Matthews/Stan Mortensen moment, he's in the record books but those who were there know who the real hero is.

Yeah but your deliberate trolling by listing Jota as Wolves' greatest player of all time got things going. I took the bait hard.

[TraXX]

Norwich's best player and player who will go furthest is to me unquestionably Buendia.
He's been immense for us and will only get better. Cantwell wasn't even a fixture in the team last season but has grown leaps and bounds in the Prem.

[Gangers]

So as I was saying, Wolves will batter Brighton.

[Chris Scott]

Changing from Henderson to James Milner