UFC 212: Aldo vs. Holloway (June 3, 2017)

[Giovanni Cresva]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/50/UFC_212_Poster.png/220px-UFC_212_Poster.png



Featherweight José Aldo (c) vs. Max Holloway (ic)


Women's Strawweight Cláudia Gadelha vs. Karolina Kowalkiewicz
Middleweight Vitor Belfort vs. Nate Marquardt
Middleweight Paulo Borrachinha vs. Oluwale Bamgbose
Welterweight Erick Silva vs. Yancy Medeiros
Bantamweight Raphael Assunção vs. Marlon Moraes
Middleweight Antônio Carlos Júnior vs. Eric Spicely
Bantamweight Johnny Eduardo vs. Matthew Lopez
Bantamweight Iuri Alcântara vs. Brian Kelleher
Women's Strawweight Viviane Pereira vs. Jamie Moyle
Welterweight Luan Chagas vs. Jim Wallhead
Flyweight Marco Beltrán vs. Deiveson Alcântara



I didn't see a 212 thread so I decided I'd make one since it's right around the corner.

Sucks that's Anderson Silva isn't on the card anymore but I still love the card!

[Percussion]

Killer main event ... also looking forward to seeing Moraes' debut, Borrachinha's second outing, and Vitor's farewell.

[Nash Diesel]

Definitely digging the main event for this weekend. Great women's fight as well, the idea of Vitor or Nate merking the other, Moraes' debut is definitely another big fight and they didn't fuck around by giving him a top 5 right off the bat.

[Mark Hammer]

Looking forward to this card but fuck me the 145 title situation is a mess. An interim champ to a "not really" champ.

Love both the strawweights in the co-main btw.

[Kdestiny]

But he is though

[Mark Hammer]

Very winnable retirement fight for Vitor but won't do anything for Marquardt if he wins.

[Mark Hammer]

But he is though

But "not really" though. Not interested in getting into a stupid pissing contest, everyone including you knows exactly what I'm referring to.

[Nash Diesel]

Looking forward to this card but fuck me the 145 title situation is a mess. An interim champ to a "not really" champ.

Love both the strawweights in the co-main btw.

Ditch the marketing aspect and it's about as messy as a sterile needle. McGregor doesn't want to fight so you have the top 2 active FW's battling for the championship the last guy who won it almost 2 years ago doesn't want to defend and will never defend. He can focus on boxing and if he wins, probably retire for good. If he loses, he'll come back and do his thing and hope people still care in 2019. Don't really care who wins this fight simply because McGregor will never return to the division so once people realize that is the case, they'll stop the nonsense of "145 is a mess because of 40 interim champions" well tell McGregor to defend some belts for fuck's sake because I'd love to see him against either of these 2, or even a 155 championship fight but you know how it is man, money talks and Mayweather is where the money is.

[Nash Diesel]

Very winnable retirement fight for Vitor but won't do anything for Marquardt if he wins.

Yeah Nate is about as relevant as Kalib Starnes and this is a fight that honestly, I think Nate is going to blow through Vitor with some Tekken finish out of nowhere. Vitor has looked like complete ass for years now.

[Mark Hammer]

Ditch the marketing aspect and it's about as messy as a sterile needle. McGregor doesn't want to fight so you have the top 2 active FW's battling for the championship the last guy who won it almost 2 years ago doesn't want to defend and will never defend. He can focus on boxing and if he wins, probably retire for good. If he loses, he'll come back and do his thing and hope people still care in 2019. Don't really care who wins this fight simply because McGregor will never return to the division so once people realize that is the case, they'll stop the nonsense of "145 is a mess because of 40 interim champions" well tell McGregor to defend some belts for fuck's sake because I'd love to see him against either of these 2, or even a 155 championship fight but you know how it is man, money talks and Mayweather is where the money is.

Oh I am aware that Conor won't return to 145 but his ventures have put the division in a sour spot. The main event is undoubtedly the two top current featherweights if you don't believe that Frankie is still a notch above Max, but it's for the new physical belt and not the lineal championship. With a defense or two this can pass but as of now Jose has not yet even defended the placeholder championship so it's hard to be fully invested in him as champ when you-know-what just happened two fights ago.

[Nash Diesel]

Oh I am aware that Conor won't return to 145 but his ventures have put the division in a sour spot. The main event is undoubtedly the two top current featherweights if you don't believe that Frankie is still a notch above Max, but it's for the new physical belt and not the lineal championship. With a defense or two this can pass but as of now Jose has not yet even defended the placeholder championship so it's hard to be fully invested in him as champ when you-know-what just happened two fights ago.

Lineal means nothing to me. You could sit here all day and talk about how certain fighters aren't really the champion because this guy never lost the belt because of this reason. If could unfortunately compare it to wrestling it's like saying, well Bret Hart never really lost the WWF title to Shawn in 1997 so the real WWF champion was the first guy in WCW to beat Bret which was like Roddy Piper or Luger or some whack shit haha. You're 100% about Aldo not defending but there was some nonsense going on that prevented that. McGregor in a way unfortunately has set a precedent that has fucked up a lot of fights and championships and their division. It wasn't his intention totally but now you have guys like Woodley, guys like Stipe, saying stupid shit left and right thinking they're owed this saying they're not going to fight this person because of this reason...fucking nonsense. At least in McGregor's defense, he had some valid reasons not to want to fight certain people at a certain time. I never once heard him say "I'll never fight Jose Aldo again". He does say things similar to "not at the moment" or "they have to prove themselves" usually when talking about a fighter who has pulled out against him in the past or has a history of that sort of thing.

[Mark Hammer]

Lineal means everything to most people. Johny Hendricks and Robbie Lawler never got full credit, neither does DC honestly.

[Nash Diesel]

How about Chris Weidman?

Do you think he gets even a smidge of the credit he deserves for beating Anderson? Now imagine a bigger draw, more popular fighter did what Weidman did? Imagine say Vitor ending Silva's legendary run? It's not about lineal, it's about popularity, the draws. If Woodley retired tomorrow and Maia won the championship against Lawler, I don't think anyone would really care that Maia didn't beat Woodley. But like with GSP....Considered the GOAT, huge draw, very popular, legend of course, some might think less of Robbie or Hendricks but they weren't exactly huge draws or top guys in terms of popularity so I honestly don't think anyone really cares and probably wouldn't even if they did beat GSP.

In MMA, you will find that more fans think higher of the draws than the ones who are simply talented as fuck. I remember how hyped up people were when Cain beat Lesnar, or when Overeem beat Lesnar...It was Lesnar for God's sake this wasn't Fedor. But Lesnar was this huge draw who's overall presence trumped his actual ability. Same with with McGregor although in this case I don't think anyone truly gives a shit if someone beats him directly for the FW championship or not if his choice is to never defend the belt. People saw what the intentions were when he wanted to rematch Diaz instead of defending against Frankie Edgar and that's fine, whatever gets you that paper. Actually they saw the intentions of the UFC and McGregor when they randomly threw him a 155 championship fight when Frankie Edgar was right there waiting for his shot.

So really like I said, I think more people are going to go "Thank God we're moving along " as opposed to "this is shit they didn't beat McGregor". The only people who think that way are a tiny % of the fanbase who wouldn't give a shit if McGregor was champion or not, they would just want to bitch about something they know nothing about or know about and just want to bitch haha. *Not saying that's you, just saying the odd minded die hard fans that every entertainer has*

[Fanny Batter]

I'm a boxing fan. I'm used to people leaving their divisions while champion and thus the vacancy being filled. This is #1 vs. #2 and a fair and just way to fill said vacancy. Conor McGregor will not fight again at 145lbs in his MMA career so I see no problem with declaring the winner of this the lineal, undisputed champion. I would perhaps look at it differently if it wasn't such a world class match-up between undoubtedly the divisional GOAT and a guy on a TEN fight win streak which includes a fantastic run lately with Pettis, Swanson and Lamas. If Demetrious Johnson moved up and Ray Borg vs. Henry Cejedo filled the vacancy, yeah I see the point.

Onto the fight, it's an absolute doozy. Holloway's rangy pressure style against Aldo's pinpoint, counter attacking tactics of the Edgar fight is such a brilliant chess match. Aldo hasn't fought a guy rangy like Max. Max hasn't fought anyone flat out as good as Jose Aldo (Conor was a work in progress at that point) either. So I see one of two things happening: Holloway sustaining pressure, getting some damage done on the inside, marking Aldo up and either stopping him late or winning on points, or Aldo puts on the virtuoso matador performance he's capable of, stops Max's movement with kicks and picks him apart with the jab/cross. Genuine 50/50. I think I'm leaning Holloway because he just seems on another level confidence wise, but Aldo IS one of the ten best to ever compete in the sport, unequivocally. Super fight, shame it hasn't got the card support it warrented.

Still some good scraps mind. Gadelha vs. Karolina is for the perennial #2 position at strawweight. Both ladies might benefit from Joanna moving up to flyweight sometime next year. If not, considering the success of the KSW stadium show in Poland last weekend that a Joanna/Karolina rematch could anchor a similar event if she keeps winning. Gadelha is a great athlete and grappler but Karolina is scrappy and sneaky good on the feet. For me the fight hinges on the second round - I've no doubt Claudia wins the first and fades, losing the third. The second? Probably Gadelha, as I'd be surprised to see her fade before getting a takedown in the second.

Vitor's last UFC fight coming in quite unmemorable circumstances. Hometown crowd admittedly, but third fight down against a guy that's basically devolved into a gatekeeper? Fitting on a skill level, but I'd have preferred a legacy fight against an Anderson or Shogun. Alas, it's a winnable bout for both men. Leaning Vitor because the pros and the cons just line up - 16 first round KO wins against 4 first round KO losses.

2 action fights round out the main card. Guaranteed good scraps lacking in relevance.

Other fight of note is Moraes debuting against Assauncao. A massive step up in competition. Rafa is a fucking bull. He's only lost to TJ DILLASHAW in 6 years. 8-1 in that time. Great fighter. Moraes has looked the part, killer leg kicks and a tight all round game, but it's a big ask in his first fight in the UFC. It's hard to look good against Rafa. Leaning the veteran in a very tight, game scrap.

[Mik]

I hope Aldo batters Holloway.

[Nash Diesel]

Is it safe to say Vitor is Bellator bound after this fight?

[OD50]

Moments after his loss to Kelvin Gastelum (http://www.mmafighting.com/fighter/2077/kelvin-gastelum) in March, “The Phenom” told the media at the post-fight press conference in Fortaleza, Brazil, that he hoped to fight the last fight of his deal with the promotion on June 3 in Rio de Janeiro.
However, Brazilian website Combate (http://sportv.globo.com/site/combate/noticia/2017/05/duelo-com-marquardt-nao-e-ultima-luta-do-contrato-de-vitor-belfort-com-o-ufc.amp) reported and MMA Fighting confirmed that Belfort still has one fight left on his deal after facing Marquardt.

http://www.mmafighting.com/2017/5/31/15722106/ufc-212-fight-vitor-belfort-ufc-contract-vs-nate-marquardt

[Nash Diesel]

Ahhh....So basically his only way out if he chose that would be to retire?

[OD50]

Probably.

[Mark Hammer]

How about Chris Weidman?

Do you think he gets even a smidge of the credit he deserves for beating Anderson? Now imagine a bigger draw, more popular fighter did what Weidman did? Imagine say Vitor ending Silva's legendary run? It's not about lineal, it's about popularity, the draws. If Woodley retired tomorrow and Maia won the championship against Lawler, I don't think anyone would really care that Maia didn't beat Woodley. But like with GSP....Considered the GOAT, huge draw, very popular, legend of course, some might think less of Robbie or Hendricks but they weren't exactly huge draws or top guys in terms of popularity so I honestly don't think anyone really cares and probably wouldn't even if they did beat GSP.

In MMA, you will find that more fans think higher of the draws than the ones who are simply talented as fuck. I remember how hyped up people were when Cain beat Lesnar, or when Overeem beat Lesnar...It was Lesnar for God's sake this wasn't Fedor. But Lesnar was this huge draw who's overall presence trumped his actual ability. Same with with McGregor although in this case I don't think anyone truly gives a shit if someone beats him directly for the FW championship or not if his choice is to never defend the belt. People saw what the intentions were when he wanted to rematch Diaz instead of defending against Frankie Edgar and that's fine, whatever gets you that paper. Actually they saw the intentions of the UFC and McGregor when they randomly threw him a 155 championship fight when Frankie Edgar was right there waiting for his shot.

So really like I said, I think more people are going to go "Thank God we're moving along " as opposed to "this is shit they didn't beat McGregor". The only people who think that way are a tiny % of the fanbase who wouldn't give a shit if McGregor was champion or not, they would just want to bitch about something they know nothing about or know about and just want to bitch haha. *Not saying that's you, just saying the odd minded die hard fans that every entertainer has*

Yes, Weidman gets plenty of credit for destroying old man Silva.

[Mik]

He gets a lot of credit for that, people were saying he could take over the throne as the best middleweight of all time and defend his title for years...until he got badly exposed in his last three fights.

[Percussion]

This is for the best 145 fighter on the planet. Period.

Edgar is absolutely in that conversation, and will in all likelihood be next in line, but sits just barely outside this particular contest. And McGregor isn't a 145 mma fighter.

Those thing's are all there are to it. Shouldn't be a problem one for any mma fan to sink their teeth into this one.

[kangus]

So the Vitor Belfort fight has gone from his retirement fight to his retirement fight inside the UFC to actually he still has one more fight remaining on his contract after this bout.

[Nash Diesel]

Yes, Weidman gets plenty of credit for destroying old man Silva.


He gets a lot of credit for that, people were saying he could take over the throne as the best middleweight of all time and defend his title for years...until he got badly exposed in his last three fights.

I don't think he gets the credit he deserves in terms of popularity, fans, drawing power. You would think people would sink their teeth into his championship run but they didn't seem to fully do that. Could have been he was out with injuries more often than not and they didn't get a chance to "warm up" to him so to speak. Maybe had he defeated Rockhold, defended it a couple more times, did a super fight with Jon Jones or whoever was the 205 champ.


So the Vitor Belfort fight has gone from his retirement fight to his retirement fight inside the UFC to actually he still has one more fight remaining on his contract after this bout.

I know haha

[Mark Hammer]

He gets a lot of credit for that, people were saying he could take over the throne as the best middleweight of all time and defend his title for years...until he got badly exposed in his last three fights.

Exposed how? He was winning all three fights until brain farting.

[Mik]

He was winning all three until he gassed.

[Mark Hammer]

He was winning all three until he gassed.

He didn't lose to Rockhold or Romero through gassing.

[Mik]

I don't agree. He was controlling the pace against Rockhold then slowed right down, got knackered and threw a desperate spinning kick. Against Romero he was controlling the pace, being busier with the striking, attempting takedowns, then got knackered, Romero started taking over the exchanges and then smashed him with his knee.

[Percussion]

Clinical work from Holloway. Stayed solidly within his gamelan. Patient, accurate, surgical, and went all in when the door opened.

Now versus Edgar should be an absolute matchup delight. Standing, grappling, transitions, cardio, fight iq. Loving this next defense. Hope they get to do it in Hawaii.

[Mik]

Yeah, there is definitely a new king in town. Aldo did well for two rounds but Holloway had his number and Aldo is a little battle-worn now I think. No idea why he wasn't trying to chop those legs down, but Holloway is smart, well rounded and quick with endurance for days. I think Edgar will find it equally difficult, of course if he beats Max he'll then have Aldo taking the title off him again.

[Giovanni Cresva]

hated the vitor fight. holloway a beast. cant wait for 214

[Percussion]

I think Edgar will find it equally difficult, of course if he beats Max he'll then have Aldo taking the title off him again.

Was very much thinking this too. We may well have a a>b>c>a title situation on our hands here. Or Holloway just neutralizes all of Edgar's assets and finds himself alone atop 145 and looking to call Conor back for a mega matchup.

[Mik]

I think Holloway will beat Edgar, I don't see him being all that easy to take down. I don't think he has much interest in calling Conor back though and why would Conor come back to fight someone he has already beaten with a torn ACL?

[Percussion]

Put a gun to my head and I'd bet on Holloway too, but I don't think it's just so cut and dry.

His interest in calling Connor back would be pretty obvious to me, to beat the man who walked away on top of, and undefeated, in 'his' division. And I didn't say McGregor would necessarily be looking for that matchup, but just depends on how the Mayweather fight turns out or what kind of matchups await him at 155, or Nate 3. If Max is riding high enough (12 straight wins and back to back title wins against future hof'ers) it wouldn't be remotely the same kind of draw as the 21 year old coming-off-a-loss kid he fought in only his second ufc contest almost half a dozen years ago. It would actually be a legit big-time title fight with it's own interesting and twisting backstory.

[Mark Hammer]

Not finished watching this yet but what are everyone's thoughts on official UFC ratings having Rousey above Holm lolololol?

[Fanny Batter]

Holloway is the clear favourite against Edgar, but it's not a foregone conclusion by any means. Max is marginally a better matchup for him than Aldo - hands aren't quite so quick, doesn't have the godly level taken defence (or hasn't proven it anyway), doesn't throw the kind of leg kicks that will slow him down early. What Holloway does have over Aldo is endurance, a more evolving skillset and a growing killer instinct, but I don't think those factors are as pronounced given Edgar's proven durability, his wrestling and his ability at neutralising dynamic strikers. It's a great fight. As a big Frankie Edgar fan I would love to see him get it done, but I would fancy Max to get it done with style points; he's only going to get better whereas Edgar at some point soon is going to slow down.

I enjoyed the main event. Aldo negating the leg kick was infuriating as a fan, if we know anything about Brazilian fighters it will come out that he fought with a sprained ankle or something. Max fought a smart fight, Aldo fought well in bursts and was edging it, but like a lot of his UFC career didn't find the high gears, got caught and taken out. The finish possibly made Holloway look better than the performance as a whole, as he wasn't without flaws. This wasn't a Dillashaw/Barao-esque flogging of a great champion, it was Aldo lacking the sting that Max had and with 5 rounds to work with it showed.

For me, I would love to see Aldo go to 155. There's good match-ups for him there. He'd chop Nate Diaz's legs to pieces and bust up Eddie Alvarez. Possibility that he could throw with more power too at a higher weight class.

[Mark Hammer]

I had Marquardt winning the first two rounds vs Vitor.

[Nash Diesel]

Shocked Claudia rinsed Karolina in like 2 minutes. These are the top 2 women in the division under Joanna imo, just crazy. Aldo-Holloway, very entertaining fight. I too will join the "Where were the leg kicks?". A great fight, Holloway being 25 years old, that's scary, this kid is giving me that BJ Penn vibe. Look at his resume. And he's only 25. What's next? I know peeps are saying Edgar Edgar Edgar. But he's had 1 win since he fought Aldo for the belt. I would throw in Cub, 4 fight winning streak BUT his last win wasn't exactly GREAT but neither was Edgar. Yair's biggest win was against a faded BJ Penn, name value is there but I don't know man. Holloway's never fought Edgar so I can see the appeal there but Jesus Christ how many title fights has Frankie been given with only having to win 1, maybe 2 fights, sometimes no fights? Way too fucking many. What's up with dude's named Frank in the UFC getting 40 title shots?

[Fanny Batter]

1 for a close decision loss after a 2 year title reign, 1 as an injury replacement for Eric Koch, 1 for a 5 fight win streak (including a shellacking of one Cub Swanson), and now likely this one after 2 wins including a dominant stoppage in a featured PPV fight last time out. Cub got choked out by Max AND Frankie in the last 3 years.

[Nash Diesel]

Ah shit I forgot about the Stephens fight.

[Mark Hammer]

Shocked Claudia rinsed Karolina in like 2 minutes. These are the top 2 women in the division under Joanna imo, just crazy. Aldo-Holloway, very entertaining fight. I too will join the "Where were the leg kicks?". A great fight, Holloway being 25 years old, that's scary, this kid is giving me that BJ Penn vibe. Look at his resume. And he's only 25. What's next? I know peeps are saying Edgar Edgar Edgar. But he's had 1 win since he fought Aldo for the belt. I would throw in Cub, 4 fight winning streak BUT his last win wasn't exactly GREAT but neither was Edgar. Yair's biggest win was against a faded BJ Penn, name value is there but I don't know man. Holloway's never fought Edgar so I can see the appeal there but Jesus Christ how many title fights has Frankie been given with only having to win 1, maybe 2 fights, sometimes no fights? Way too fucking many. What's up with dude's named Frank in the UFC getting 40 title shots?

Holloway already rinsed Cub. Cub/Aldo 2 would be more appropriate now. Frankie is the only plausible choice right now. He is head-and-shoulders above everyone else in the division not named Aldo.

[Nash Diesel]

Holloway already rinsed Cub. Cub/Aldo 2 would be more appropriate now. Frankie is the only plausible choice right now. He is head-and-shoulders above everyone else in the division not named Aldo.

I would not be negative in any way shape or form if Edgar got his 3rd crack at the belt for this very reason of Holloway and Edgar already beating Cub but I definitely like Cub's name being in the mix. Aldo/Cub 2 would be great to see at this stage as I feel both are great fighters.

[Fanny Batter]

I say give Swanson the rematch with Lamas. That's the big one for him. If he avenges that he would only have unavenged losses to Holloway, Edgar, Aldo and Mendes, 4 of the 5 best featherweights of all time, and a prime Jens Pulver. So basically, by the time he would fight for the title next year, only having 4 unavenged losses in 10 years against 4 of the best ever at the weight. That's fair reason for a title shot.

If Aldo stays in the division, he'll be taking time off I'm sure. Head trauma is big shit. Wouldn't expect him back until December at the earliest. Seems nationalistic so probably won't fight a Do Bronx or Moicano. So I guess Jeremy Stephens is the fight? As I've said, I'd prefer if he moved to lightweight.

Rodriguez, Choi and Bektic all getting losses recently has slowed the evolution of the division down somewhat. All 3 looked to be on course for title shots as 7/8-0 in the UFC type guys before the brakes got beat off.

[OD50]

Lamas is fighting KZ at 214 I believe, maybe do Cub/Lamas if he wins. Even better, do Zombie/Swanson if KZ wins.

[Mik]

Didn't KZ get injured?

[Nash Diesel]

Yep. Knee injury I believe. Guy was back for 2 seconds.

[OD50]

Well, that sucks.

[OD50]

Jason Knight will replace KZ against Lamas. I honestly don't know who that is.

[Fanny Batter]

Knight has been great to watch and beat a couple of borderline top 20 guys in Cacares and Skelly in his last 2 fights, both finishes. Interested to see him get a step up. Lamas is one of those sneaky good guys that gets underrated because he's 4-3 in his last 3 - Aldo, Mendes and Holloway beat him. 3 of the 5 best ever at the weight for me.

I wonder if the MSG card is starting to take shape. Apparently aiming for November 4th. For me, Edgar vs. Holloway is almost a shoe in for the co-main event. If Conor vs. Floyd doesn't get made by the end of July I expect McGregor returns there against Ferguson. If not, I think the pressure will be to still run Bisping vs. GSP there for the title.

[Nash Diesel]

Isn't GSP v. Bisping completely off the table? I thought I heard the plan is do an interim title fight between Romero and Whitaker due to Bisping having some knee issues still. The winner then fights Bisping and GSP is going to do something at 170.

[Mark Hammer]

Jason Knight will replace KZ against Lamas. I honestly don't know who that is.
I do, and I like this fight. Knight deserves the step up, his last few performances have been great.