Rajah Fantasy Football Discussion Thread

[MMH]

Ok so here we are.

A place to discuss future structures and rule changes etc.

This year has been pretty horrendous for me, I have to admit I have not enjoyed it this season unlike other seasons as there are far too many grey areas.

This thread is open to any discussion and ideas. Some of it will no doubt get heated but it is worth remembering that every idea but everybody involved is done with the intention of keep the game good and fun.

I personally think the main issues right now with RFF are as follows....

1. Available managers.

With Rajah hardly being a hotbed of activity these days in regards to getting new posters we are struggling to get managers in who can do a job. Managers not getting involved every week is the biggest problem we have (and have always had) all it takes is for one manager to lose interest and then the problems happen. My suggestion is to broaden our search somewhat by looking at some of the more prolific Fantasy Sport players from other sports on here. People who have shown they can do a job and play the game in the correct manner.

2. Proper Strict Rules

A proper set of rules needs to be drawn up with no leeway afforded for any grey areas. Thats not to say that rules can not be questioned and changed but no "favours" will be done for people. i think this also ties in to problem number 1 as new managers will not get lost in a bunch of vague rules.

3. Trading

This again falls into suggestion number 2. Trades are getting out of hand. The main problem with this is managers who have given up/are not bothered (which will be addressed soon). I dont want to eliminate trades as its a fun part of the game but maybe there should be a currency system (nothing major, you get £100 for trades and trades cost £25 each, just a suggestion, dont go jumping down my throat!) or something along those lines. I would also love to implement a waiver system but i dont think it really works with this game.

4. Player Interest

I have suggested divisions before. Not a league 1/league 2 promotion and relegation system but splitting teams into groups. If we go with 16 games next season we could go 2 groups of 8 or even 4 of 4. Everybody would still play each other like we do now but the points would matter in divisions more. All I am thinking with this is that it "should" keep interest going with other teams as they have less positions to claw back if they have a bad start etc. You could maybe have play offs at the end of the season and the draft positions for the next season would be determined NFL style. This idea is not without its problems either, for example how would the divisions be determined etc.

5. Other stuff

Keepers are worthy of discussion I think. Do we keep more, do we keep less, do we keep none? Do keepers ruin interest for middling teams? European players, do we need them? They are there currently to keep interest again for middling teams, something to aspire to. Could we give Euro players to division winners, should everyone get one Euro player to be taken anywhere in the draft? Should it be a specific round etc etc?

Anyway that is just for starters.....suggest away.

[son_of_foley]

Yes.

Waivers
I would like us to see if we can come up with a Waiver system that makes sense.

Game Week Deadlines
I feel like a team lockdown period makes sense as well. Similar to the Premier League fantasy football. I think there's a little weird confusion were someone can make a transfer on a Sunday to keep a game active. Maybe people value that option? I dunno it feels weird.
Suggesting a proper lock out that includes picking players up. Teams are locked in from Saturday at Noon until Monday at 9?

Keepers
I think next year should be the last with Keepers. I think it's more interesting if more players are draftable. The best players may never be available to lower teams. I think it's nice if the bottom team actually gets to pick the 20th and 21st best player available and not the 38th or whatever because of keepers

European Players
I like them as a reward. I feel like they are still overpowered (except when I pick Jonas but that is my fault). So couple of suggestions

We do the rotation of leagues. It lessens the pool of available European players and reduces the advantage
We enforce they get taken in the first round or first two rounds. Again it means yes you can have the Euro player but it's at the expense of a solid domestic pick



International Games
Feel we've got it right by including friendlies. I do worry a little about under-21 games being counted but not enough to suggest we remove them

Charity Shield
Feel it should be counted and including Euro versions if we have European players

Trades
How about if a waiver system doesn't work that a traded player needs to be put on an inactive list for at least 1 gameweek before they are eligible for their new team.

RFF Board
Big one but I would like to see us nominate as a community 2/3 people to sit with MMH (assuming you would want to do it) to act as a board to decide on contentious decisions.
I think getting bulletproof rules is hard and unnecessarily restrictive. They do need firmed up of course but I think there should be a catch all rule that if you think something is against the 'spirit' of the game it gets flagged to the board and they can veto transfers/trades etc.
Things like teams giving up and handing their best players over to someone else is a little subjective and therefore I think having a board to make a decision helps. In the case of the board members being 'interested parties' they will or can recuse themselves from the decision. As long as we have enough people to reach Quorum

Random question. Keeping relevant discussion together is going to be hard on this. Is it worth a quick RFF rules sub-forum and a thread for the big items to track how things are being received etc?

[The Rosk]

I'll have a think about suggestions and get back to you all.

I am going to be honest with you all and say that it has been my plan for this season to be my last as a fully fledged RFF manager (hence the Kane transfer). I am keen to help move the game forward in any way, whether it be sourcing more managers or whatever) as it is arguably the best fantasy game I have ever played by a country mile. However, I need my Saturday afternoons back and I'm just a shade too competitive to not not care about checking Elgin City's Twitter page at 2:40pm in a cafe with friends and my baby on my lap. I will still look to take part in a Director of Football role for an unnamed club which brings me onto my next point.

This isn't really a suggestion so much, but more of a reason why I liked the game, and why an increasing number of people like the game, that I think a few other people need to actually appreciate (and stop shitting on). I have been thrown shit at by certain people endlessly for my trades with certain people. Chris Scott, Rip, and Mik to an extent. None of the trades with these people have ever been vetoed and with good reason (see other thread, and if not from my mouth, see SOF's point on the subject). The reason we trade so often is because we like talking about the game together and "looking out for each other" in a weird way. We are a stable or alliance with mutual interests. And it has brought us together a little more as posters and people in a way that wouldn't have happened without RFF. Talking about the Football League Show or sending each other YouTube videos of goals and calling some Scottish prick a useless Toblerone-footed goon - it is all a fun way to enjoy football again, and sharing that has been lovely.

Now you can break this down however you want, but if we are to look at attracting more people, then I think we need to be conscious of the fact that this game attracts people for different reasons, and be acceptive about this reasoning.

[Rip]

Just a little point, this is a game it's supposed to be fun, amidst all the rules and crap can we try and remember that?

Sometimes I really feel that's forgotten.

[MMH]

Just a little point, this is a game it's supposed to be fun, amidst all the rules and crap can we try and remember that?

Sometimes I really feel that's forgotten.

The rules are what makes it fun though which I think is something people forget or cant grasp.

Every game that works need a structure.

Currently this game is not fun for me and judging by the amount of people who have left it wasnt for them either.

Obviously I would be interested to know peoples feelings on this.

Also got to remember the rules should not be something that the managers have to worry about to much. They are being written up just so if something does happen thats a bit out of the ordinary then a ruling can be justified without me making a decision and then someone else kicking up a fuss about said decision. With black and white rules this wont happen and to be honest I need it to happen.

[BBF]

This isn't really a suggestion so much, but more of a reason why I liked the game, and why an increasing number of people like the game, that I think a few other people need to actually appreciate (and stop shitting on). I have been thrown shit at by certain people endlessly for my trades with certain people. Chris Scott, Rip, and Mik to an extent. None of the trades with these people have ever been vetoed and with good reason (see other thread, and if not from my mouth, see SOF's point on the subject). The reason we trade so often is because we like talking about the game together and "looking out for each other" in a weird way. We are a stable or alliance with mutual interests. And it has brought us together a little more as posters and people in a way that wouldn't have happened without RFF. Talking about the Football League Show or sending each other YouTube videos of goals and calling some Scottish prick a useless Toblerone-footed goon - it is all a fun way to enjoy football again, and sharing that has been lovely.



I can see your side of it and can see how that makes the game a bit more fun for you. Its actually something that has bothered me less and less as time has gone on because despite it you've not actually been able to absolutely dominate the game but I can still understand the frustration of the players who aren't part of the 'inner circle'. Surely you must see that timed transfers and trades only happening within that circle would alienate other players and stack the odds a bit? From the way Hurley has reacted it seems to be the exact reason he carried out that trade earlier this week.

I think in general we need to stop being dicks as a whole. I think a set of written rules that we can point to as well as a committee (I think you need at least one person who knows football in this country to be on it btw) who are there to go 'yep, thats a fair trade' or just simply say 'stop being a dick'. Maybe even limiting trades between 2 sides (only 2 trades allowed between 2 sides per season or something?)

With keepers, I think thats something we need to head into a season knowing rather than deciding at this point for this season so next season being 'the end' of a RFF rotation and the 2018/19 season being the point of a recent would be good. That would also see a hard reset with Euro players too.

I think having 2 'conferences' next season could work and I've got an idea about how to make it work similarly to how MLS is run which would see an end of season knockout cup with the overall league winner and the cup winner getting the biggest rewards over the season.

I think its a superb idea to do this thread now btw knowing we've got a shit load of time before the next season to sort stuff out.

[son_of_foley]

Just a little point, this is a game it's supposed to be fun, amidst all the rules and crap can we try and remember that?

Sometimes I really feel that's forgotten.

I think that will be considered mate. The other thing is its a big time investment so I do think there needs to be some basis of rules/structure so people aren't constantly trying to get 1 over or be snide.

I'm not a fan of all trades or such being eyeballed. I would want any committee to be involved sparingly so there would be a need for someone to flag something up (could be via pm) for someone to look at.

[MMH]

Just throwing an idea out there....

Instead of being able to just pick up anyone there could be a comprehensive list of players available. Anyone new can be added to the database and then enters the waiver process (if we were to have one obviously..)

Personally I am against it because a proper punt is a big and fun part of the game but am throwing it out there anyway.

Also regarding the waiver wire. Could teams be locked down until Tuesday morning and then players be claimed via a predetermined order like in most fantasy sports? Again I am not massively keen as it takes away a fun part of the game, however it does bring up/adds another aspect of team management. I think if anything that should only be used during transfer windows but meh...

[Reech]

Quick notes as I've got a short lunch.

We need rules written down, mainly for reference and mainly to help new players learn the ropes.
I'd be in favour of locking teams for the game week (Fri to Mon) so they can't transfer in/out during that time.
Not having a keeper and aiming for one is the only reason I'm playing. If it was "to finish 6th, then it's not enough of a drive for me and I'd probably have bailed earlier on. I'm hooked on a tangible rewards. Keepers seems okay as a concept, would be in favour of them being limited to a few leagues (i.e. 2 or 3) and rotating those round. Feels weird to be able to get such a strong first pick AND a good Euro player though in the draft so I'd maybe suggest mixing that up as suggested so others can more chance to get a fantastic first draft pick (or to fuck it up on Rudy Gestede like I did the other year).
We count U-21 games? That's new news and we shouldn't imo. Charity Shield should count.
Trades should be capped/limited/reviewed in some way, not sure the best (5 per season etc etc). As an "outsider", sometimes it feels like the game is weighted against you in this regard when there's circles of people all rubbing each other's back. Not sure on Divisions/Conference, depends on how many people we get.
Committee sounds a good for arbitration on issues.

[son_of_foley]

Quick notes as I've got a short lunch.

We need rules written down, mainly for reference and mainly to help new players learn the ropes.
I'd be in favour of locking teams for the game week (Fri to Mon) so they can't transfer in/out during that time.
Not having a keeper and aiming for one is the only reason I'm playing. If it was "to finish 6th, then it's not enough of a drive for me and I'd probably have bailed earlier on. I'm hooked on a tangible rewards. Keepers seems okay as a concept, would be in favour of them being limited to a few leagues (i.e. 2 or 3) and rotating those round. Feels weird to be able to get such a strong first pick AND a good Euro player though in the draft so I'd maybe suggest mixing that up as suggested so others can more chance to get a fantastic first draft pick (or to fuck it up on Rudy Gestede like I did the other year).
We count U-21 games? That's new news and we shouldn't imo. Charity Shield should count.
Trades should be capped/limited/reviewed in some way, not sure the best (5 per season etc etc). As an "outsider", sometimes it feels like the game is weighted against you in this regard when there's circles of people all rubbing each other's back. Not sure on Divisions/Conference, depends on how many people we get.
Committee sounds a good for arbitration on issues.

I thought competitive under-21 international games did count but I might be wrong

[The Rosk]

If Andy or Beefy ever win this then we need to close the game forever.

New suggestion.

[MMH]

If Andy or Beefy ever win this then we need to close the game forever.

New suggestion.

Cant see if being an issue...

I will put it on the to discuss list right behind the "what if Aliens land and are allowed to play professional football even though they have super powers?" dilemma.

[Reech]

"The Space Jam Procedure"

[The Rosk]

Suggestions for players:

Pablo Diablo
Murphy
Darkoke

This is purely based off who has read this thread. I think it would be good to cure Murphy's ongoing disappointment with the world.

[Canuck]

Re: Waivers/available players

I think the typical waiver procedure is a pretty good idea. For those of you who aren't familiar with NA fantasy sports it works like this...

If a player is dropped from a team he is required to clear waivers, meaning there is a period of time in which he can be picked up by another team, but the highest waiver priority will win out.

Initial waiver priority is based on standings. After that any team who uses their benefits is dropped to lowest priority.

So for instance.. if I drop Costa and Andy has waiver priority 6... he can pick him up... however if anyone in positions 1-5 claim him in the waiver period they will get him. If he has cleared the timeframe then Andy gets him.

It will get tricky if transfers are overturned, but it still allows any punts on proper free agents. Would probably work better with a locked in squad as well.

[Chris Scott]

Agree with the waiver bit 100%.

[son_of_foley]

There is an option to start the season with the waiver system in place and if it's not working we can abolish it quickly enough right?

As long as there is clarity when that would happen i think it's worth a try

[Reech]

Still don't understand waivers.

[Reech]

How do you define waiver priority?

[Canuck]

1st draft pick is last priority... last is 1st.

[MMH]

Then when someone uses their waiver pick they move to the back of the list and everyone else moves up

[Andy]

The draft and transfers are the two best things about the game, I'd be wary about changing them too much from a simple formula.

No draft pick trades, freedom to pick up and drop players within the one or two gameweek limit - those are simple rules and should remain IMO.

The trades issue has come about as a result of people being dicks and sadly there's no way to set up a rule against it. I don't know what you can do about that other than maybe putting a poll up and go with majority decision. Or if someone wants to drop someone and believes there is potential value in a trade, announce it in the thread and take the best public offer after 24 hours.

[MMH]

We dont have a no draft pick trade rule...

If anything I would prefer if people did it more!

[Andy]

I thought that was banned a while ago? Obviously not.

I'm always up for mixing it up a bit so a Euro player for everyone is interesting to me. Maybe the top 6 get two but can only have one in their starting five.

[SheltonLondon]

Got to say despite my absences previously I am completely in love with this game and I've got to commend MMH for setting this up way back when. Without doubt the best fantasy football game I've ever played, and something I always thought could actually work on a larger scale if I'm being honest. It does seem like it has recently turned a little bit sour for whatever reason but personally I wouldn't say it needs a complete overhaul. I'm pretty sure the game started on a notepad for MMH, and ultimately think that simplicity is part of the beauty of it.

I've never played any of the yank fantasy sports, so I'm not familiar with some of the proposals discussed above, but I would be a little wary of going too much down that road. I'll bow to better people's judgement on things like waivers etc as maybe it's what the game needs. Although I don't think it's necessary it could be something that plays out like a 'Transfer List', and a player has to be listed for a set period or something, which wouldn't be that dissimilar from what we're used to as footy fans.

Like some others who have posted above I do think the game should always have an element of freedom for managers, mad punts and late signings have always been a part of the game for as long as I can remember and have made for some great RFF moments. Danny Shittu immediately springs to mind! I can understand people's points about teams being locked in for the weekend, but again for me it's always been part of the game that a manager could pull something out of the bag late in the day if he needed to pick up the points and there was an opportunity to bring someone in from the Sunday/Monday games. There is usually a level of sacrifice/risk in these moves which kind of balances things out, as you generally have to transfer out a good player in these sort of situations, and usually end up with someone like Theo Walcott.

I think trades can be tightened a little, as they are getting a bit silly. Wouldn't want to see them squashed completely though, so getting approval from a board or something similar doesn't sound like a bad plan at all, and think it's probably the most simple to enforce.

For me the draft has always been one of the highlights, wouldn't say that should be changed too much. Maybe slightly less weighted in the favour of teams who have performed well the previous year, as generally they are probably the better players anyway, or devote more time to the game and would likely already have a better chance of being up there the next season anyway. To then give them such an advantage in the draft with the placement of picks etc kind of creates a gap similar to the one Champions League football has done in the Premier League and could potentially contribute to a feeling of apathy from the lower placed managers as they have less exciting players, or they have little to play for later in the season.

The split divisions could work in that respect I suppose, although have always quite liked how similar this was to the traditional football setup in Europe, but if we have limited players I guess that might not be feasible to carry on with.

Guess I'm a bit of a purist looking at all that. Should probably play a bit more.

[SheltonLondon]

Also bring back Melv and Topping if they're still alive.

[SheltonLondon]

Proper thread killer me eh? :cry:

[UK Blue]

Sure this thread will be buzzing at the season's end.

[wardy]

I know I abandoned this the last time but I'd be up for taking a team and giving it my full commitment this time around.

[Mik]

Like the rajah royal rumble eh wardy?

[Andy]

Rosk trading/giving Rip Sutherland is fine but it'll leave a sour taste if he trades him straight back at the start of next season.

[Mik]

Rosk isn't playing next season.

[Andy]

He said that last year.

[Mik]

He isn't next season. I've talked to him about it a lot.

[wardy]

Like the rajah royal rumble eh wardy?
Like the Rajah WrestleMania meet Mik eh eh

[Canuck]

If we introduce waivers, what does everyone think of expanding eligibile players in international weeks to all legit games? We could bring back the two week minimum stay in a squad if we want to make it more of a risk for transfers as well.

[Mik]

Like the Rajah WrestleMania meet Mik eh eh

Touche.

[Beefy]

Waivers won't work. It's too big a pain to track and is contrart to the nature of this game. In US fantasy sports you tend to drop players at the start of the week. Most of the action in our game happens from 2pm on the Saturday onwards. Plus I'm unsure what problem it is that a waiver system would resolve? It just rewards less active players.

[Canuck]

It prevents obvious timing issues with players being dropped. Ie: Shane Sutherland.

[Beefy]

Just asking people not to fuck over the game would be easier. Waivers stop that but they also stop people making legitimate signings at the most important time of the gameweek.

Not that that is necessarily what happened there anyway. A lot of people are in that thread at that time.

[Canuck]

Maybe not, but it definitely happens.

[Rip]

It prevents obvious timing issues with players being dropped. Ie: Shane Sutherland.

So we can't pick up players that are dropped without waiting an hour?

[Canuck]

Not with waivers.

[Rip]

Takes away an element of luck then, that would be a shame.

[Mik]

Haha luck.

[son_of_foley]

Beefy is unfit to legislate this game

[son_of_foley]

I wish him no harm I just hope that his seat for Wrestlemania has poor visibility due to a sign in-front of his face at all times and also I hope that he uses the same prostitute as TakerSon and loses all his fucking money and also I hope that he sunburns his stupid fucking bald head.

[MMH]

Just asking people not to fuck over the game would be easier.

Been done loads of the times hence me having a meltdown at least twice a season and threatening to walk away.

[Reech]

Waivers do sound a bit more complex. Challenge is keeping "casual" people interested enough to post teams and adding more rules/regulations will just turn anyone but the hardcore off.

[Reech]

Hello

I find it weird that we have 2 cup competitions and they both use whole squads.

Using the "first 5" (which I was doing incorrectly) was a much easier thing to do because I could just refer to the main sheets per week rather than going through the thread, finding the last post, seeing the subs, checking their scores, marking them down somewhere separately. With all the required data already in the sheet after a week was completed, it made checking it way easier.

2p.

[UK Blue]

Are we drafting yet? :(

I guess we should get an idea of numbers for next season before discussing anything else.

wardy said he's up for returning, Jay popped in the thread back in December and said he might. I'll fire a PM to Jay now.

[Badger]

I'm in. I got the short end of the stick taking over Beer Monster's team and want to give it a proper go.

[The Rosk]

I'm out, but happy to head up sorting shit out if needs be.

[UK Blue]

List of last season's keepers:

Alex - Sergio Aguero (Manchester City)
Andy - None
Mik - None
BBF - None
Beefy - Nicky Ajose (Charlton)
Chris Scott - Moussa Dembele (Celtic)
UK Blue - None
The Beer Monster - Craig Gunn (Elgin)
Gary J - None
Hurley - None
Grimario - None
Matthew - Jamie Vardy (Leicester)
Mikey Jones - Adam Armstrong (Newcastle United)
MMH - Romelu Lukaku (Everton)
Reech - Fernando Forestieri (Sheff Wed)
Rip - Liam Boyce (Ross County)
SheltonLondon - None
son_of_foley - Chris Martin (Derby)
The Rosk - Rory McAllister (Peterhead)
Torn - Jay Simpson (Leyton Orient)

For those unaware, a player cannot be kept for two successive years, so all of the above will be available in the draft.

EDIT: Assuming there is no change to that rule.

[Beefy]

For those unaware, a player cannot be kept for two successive years,.

Depends

[UK Blue]

See edit :)

[Reech]

Anyone have any requests for Reechsheet 17/18?

[UK Blue]

Hmm it's pretty much perfect as far as I'm concerned (except I can never update the table for some reason, must be a problem on my side).

It'd be good to have a page for the RFF Cup. Also team/player form should only go back for six games. Seven is a weird number.

All I can think of right now!

[Reech]

The Cups aren't my domain, but Alex/Beefy can add their stuff to the sheet if they want.

Not sure why I chose 7 tbh, easily change it to 6.

[RFF Champ]

Yeah, I added the Champions League page last year. I might try and jazz it up because I added everything manually including updating tables last season.

[Andy]

I can never get anything to update either. :dunno:

[BBF]

It can only be updated via laptop if thats your issue?

[UK Blue]

Not my laptop.

Maybe browser is an issue?

[BBF]

Potentially. Always works on chrome for me.

I started my draft list today.

[Andy]

I'm between two for my number 1 pick.

[Reech]

The table/scoring lists use a script I wrote in Google Sheets to update. There's a chance you've got them blocked and it also takes time for the sheet to load them in so it never works straight away from me. I hope to try and optimise the sheet a bit, it's fucking slow as shit sometimes.

[UK Blue]

I'm between two for my number 1 pick.

Much will change. I reckon it'll be Griezmann to United, Lukaku to Chelsea and new strikers in at Liverpool, Arsenal and Everton.

[Andy]

None of them are Scottish mate :confused:

[Peter Griffin]

I'm in for next year. (2nd to last is the aim) :happysad:

[Reech]

The EFL season starts on August 4-6th.

That's like 8 weeks away.

I will begin updating/clearing out a spreadsheet for RFF 2017/2018 this weekend!

[Badger]

What timegrame does drafting usually start?

[Andy]

Usually two or three weeks before the season starts.

[Badger]

:yes:

[Andy]

And I think last year we started on the first weekend of the championship.

[Reech]

Who uses their mobile to access the sheet? I need them to test something for the new spreadsheet.

I'm trying to replace 38 x week sheets with a single LONG sheet with links at the top to jump down to the right row or "hide" completed weeks so the next week is at the top (not sure which one I prefer yet, hence the test).

[Reech]

New sheet is here btw

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KJGF1RP_Q4zUKHa2XcRVD7Aw5c5gk4JLWDrD8o5v36Y/edit?usp=sharing

[RFF Champ]

The results haven't been done for week 38 :lol:

[Beefy]

I'm a firm supporter this year of a 16 team league made up of four conferences. Let's mix things up.

[RFF Champ]

Divisions of 4 times only heightens the impact of inactive users.

Next year stands to be a proper contest. Torn won’t repeat his early bad luck and has a Euro player, Reech showed some incredible form mid-season after grasping the game, UK Blue is back and firing and has a Euro player, Andy is always there or thereabouts, BBF took his game up a level, I’m keener than ever, SOF has scored more goals than anyone over the past 3 years and then there’s whoever Rosk acts as DoF for, plus a few others who could lay claim to a challenge.

[Beefy]

Conferences actually lessen the impact of inactive players because you can't win overall by being lucky enough to run into more inactive players than others have or even have inactive players nudged back into life every time they're up against a title rival (which has definitely happened in the past) or not replaced until a week or two after they've played a certain team (which has also happened). It should also encourage people to keep playing when for most the season is over by November in the current format.

if we wanted the winner to reflect the best player in the game we'd just award the title to whoever scores the most goals. We don't and therefore we should consider a competition format that works best. That isn't a straight-forward league.

[RFF Champ]

Highest goal scorer isn’t the indication of the best player. There's always going to be an issue of variance with regards to inactive players but that has never resulted in any title winner being 'lucky'.

[Beefy]

Of course highest goalscorer is the indication of the best player. It's the only indication because it is the only variable that counts and is the one that we're all striving for.

[RFF Champ]

No, it isn’t. Anyone can luck upon Robert Lewandowski in the draft and score a boatload.

[Beefy]

:wtf: Yeah. Obviously. Have you been drinking?

[The Rosk]

I dunno how four divisions would work in reality. I think you should do a 14 team league and really mix it up with people playing eachother thrice. It should be known as the Year of Thrice.

Andy
BBF
Alex
SOF
Torn
UK Blue
Reech
Hurley
Beefy
MMH
Shelton
Mikey
Mik
Badger (?)

I can't see any of those not taking part regularly next year and it'll lead to a lot more enjoyable league overall IMO. It may annoy some people who thought they could get a place without question, but fuck 'em. Watching people play empty squads over the last few years was so annoying.

Be ruthless lads.

[The Rosk]

Of course highest goalscorer is the indication of the best player. It's the only indication because it is the only variable that counts and is the one that we're all striving for.

That means Andy was the best player last year :(

:spit:

:cry:

[Peter Griffin]

I dunno how four divisions would work in reality. I think you should do a 14 team league and really mix it up with people playing eachother thrice. It should be known as the Year of Thrice.

Andy
BBF
Alex
SOF
Torn
UK Blue
Reech
Hurley
Beefy
MMH
Shelton
Mikey
Mik
Badger (?)

I can't see any of those not taking part regularly next year and it'll lead to a lot more enjoyable league overall IMO. It may annoy some people who thought they could get a place without question, but fuck 'em. Watching people play empty squads over the last few years was so annoying.

Be ruthless lads.

:squint:

[RFF Champ]

:wtf: Yeah. Obviously. Have you been drinking?

The person who has the best process in pursuit of becoming the highest scorer is the best player. Andy navigating the Scottish leagues week on week for players showed him as a better player than Hurley who had 10 unique scorers all season but it’s entirely feasible given the fine margin between them that Hurley could’ve outscored Andy.

[Beefy]

And had Hurley outscored Andy he'd have been entitled to call himself the best player that season regardless of where they both finished in the league. He didn't and therefore he cannot.

This isn't football - we don't go for goals at the cost of leaving ourselves open at the back. No one devises specific tactics against specific teams. Regardless of whether you luck upon a great set of players in the draft or you make a bunch of trades or you pick up some great players in free agency the goal is the same which is to score as many goals as possible every week.

Clearly at the end of the season the person who scored the most goals is the one who has played the game best, whether or not they win the league.

[The Rosk]

BUT I WAS TOP SCORER ALL SEASON THEN ANDY WON 6-0 BECAUSE MY ENTIRE TEAM GOT FUCKING INJURED YOU CUNT SHUT UP AND OBVIOUSLY HIS FUCKING EURO PLAYER DIDN'T MAKE IT PAST THE QUARTERS AND SO PLAYED MADAME SWISH AND MONSIEUR PRICK AT THE WEEKENDS WHILE FAT HIGUAIN GOT RESTED LIKE A TWAT SHUT UP

*ahem*

This is a pointless argument as it will have nothing to do with next season.

[RFF Champ]

We can remove Gary, Matthew, Rosk and Rip then have a 16 team league of mostly active players in what is the hottest renewal of the league we've had in years. We can lighten the Christmas schedule which was chaos last year, we can remove weeks where there are few leagues playing and we can include the first two rounds of the RFA cup as their own week.

[Beefy]

The RFA Cup will be played out entirely in the first third of the season next year. I want it done by November.

[RFF Champ]

Now who's been drinking.

[BBF]

I like Rosk's idea best but with 16 teams. I just can't see the conference thing working (my stance has changed on this considerably) and I don't think 'American-ising' the game will do it any favours.

16 core players, a proper cup competition and it'll be fun. Lets give it one year like that and see how we go.

[Canuck]

The draft is not luck.

[Canuck]

Will there ever be any interest in adding more stats than goals to the game? It works well with american sports, but I am unsure how it would transfer over to football.

[UK Blue]

I'd prefer one league but a revamped cup competition starting with groups of four teams (played on international weekends with all matches counting).

[Torn]

Can we go back and remember what the issues were midseason when there was lots of moaning about the game being broken? As we should probably address the reasons behind this

I agree with the smaller league obviously. Playing dead squads is horrible. One of the issues midseason was the lack of participation from some affecting the rest of the league and we can solve a lot of that with a smaller league. I don't think anything drastic needs to be done to the structure - the last few months of the season were brilliant and the title race was amazing yet again. Have a separate group based cup competition to fill the fixture gaps and we have the best of both worlds. People can then prioritise signing players for the cup when we play a cup game on a Tuesday with 3 leagues running or focus on their league campaign.

8 man squads if we have less people please. Smaller squads helps out those who haven't been hit by the injury bug which in turn makes being unlucky affect a team's season a lot more. You could draft and pick up well and be ruined by injuries and there is little you can do to resolve it. I had to drop some very good players last year early in the year simply to make 5 for the weekend. I wouldn't be so annoyed at luck if there was something I could do about it.

From my perspective I think something could be done to make Euro players less impactful, potentially in the draft. I know there are plenty of stories about how Euro players guarantee nothing but drafting Cavani in the last round for example is a serious advantage. Having a high first rounder, a keeper from your successful previous campaign and then a euro pick is huge. Perhaps the highest player who missed out on a Euro pick gets number 1 overall and the draft order is shuffled. I don't know. Trading I probably dislike more than others, I'd like to put a stop to these two for one type trades which are always in favour of the player getting the best overall player in the deal, trading as a whole doesn't make too much sense to me as you aren't trading from an area of strength into an area of need - players just score goals. The only time I get the urge to trade is when Alex has my club's top goalscorer but even then I would only want to do a like for like swap. But others find it fun and that's ok.

[Beefy]

I vote for six man squads. NO FIVE.

[UK Blue]

Eight man squads would lessen the number of desperation transfers. It was hard to keep up with it all last season - I think Alli and Son played for half the league between them.

[son_of_foley]

I like the smaller squad and I like the fact players may have to be dropped when there are injuries. I think it pushes people to remain active

[RFF Champ]

Can we go back and remember what the issues were midseason when there was lots of moaning about the game being broken? As we should probably address the reasons behind this

I agree with the smaller league obviously. Playing dead squads is horrible. One of the issues midseason was the lack of participation from some affecting the rest of the league and we can solve a lot of that with a smaller league. I don't think anything drastic needs to be done to the structure - the last few months of the season were brilliant and the title race was amazing yet again. Have a separate group based cup competition to fill the fixture gaps and we have the best of both worlds. People can then prioritise signing players for the cup when we play a cup game on a Tuesday with 3 leagues running or focus on their league campaign.

8 man squads if we have less people please. Smaller squads helps out those who haven't been hit by the injury bug which in turn makes being unlucky affect a team's season a lot more. You could draft and pick up well and be ruined by injuries and there is little you can do to resolve it. I had to drop some very good players last year early in the year simply to make 5 for the weekend. I wouldn't be so annoyed at luck if there was something I could do about it.

From my perspective I think something could be done to make Euro players less impactful, potentially in the draft. I know there are plenty of stories about how Euro players guarantee nothing but drafting Cavani in the last round for example is a serious advantage. Having a high first rounder, a keeper from your successful previous campaign and then a euro pick is huge. Perhaps the highest player who missed out on a Euro pick gets number 1 overall and the draft order is shuffled. I don't know. Trading I probably dislike more than others, I'd like to put a stop to these two for one type trades which are always in favour of the player getting the best overall player in the deal, trading as a whole doesn't make too much sense to me as you aren't trading from an area of strength into an area of need - players just score goals. The only time I get the urge to trade is when Alex has my club's top goalscorer but even then I would only want to do a like for like swap. But others find it fun and that's ok.


I agree with all of this. A reduced league with a proper cup competition sounds a great idea.

[Andy]

Reduced league and revamped cup - yes.

I picked Cavani up in the third round I think. Also, seven man squads are good. Luck is part of the game and I'd much rather that than players getting stockpiled and not playing.

[MMH]

We dont really have an option regarding league size. It will have to be reduced regardless.

More emphasis on cups would be good.

My main thing that I want to look at is the draft and how it works. I will gather my thoughts and post at the weekend on that but I think it needs serious discussion in terms of balance (me and Torn have had a small discussion on it already).

[Andy]

I honestly don't see a way to make the draft fairer. Keepers as second round did a lot to help as did making it one keeper only. The snake draft works. I guess if you want to be radical you could reverse the order but we've seen enough times that draft order really isn't that consequential with people near the bottom doing well over the season and those at the top falling apart.

Euro players are of course an advantage but I think we want to keep that as a reward to keep people interested both over a season and the long term. And again, now that we've taken Spain out there's fewer guarantees.

[The Rosk]

I suggest you take the French league out too.

1.5x

[Reech]

I have love/hate with Euro players. I hate I can't have one but it's the driving force for me to do another year in the hope that the year after, I'll have one.

[Beefy]

The draft shouldn't snake in the second round because we don't really have a second round. I've always said that that is massively unfair (although I appreciate that it will look this year that I'm saying it for selfish reasons as this will be the first time I've ever drafted from the bottom half).

It should go 1-20, 1-20, 20-1, 1-20, 20-1, etc.

The second round of the draft shouldn't be considered a second round. It should be a supplemental round inserted after the first round.

[Beefy]

Actually just take keepers out of the draft and instead add in a compensation pick at the end of the first round (like the NFL Draft has at the end of the 3rd round) for teams who DON'T have a keeper for whatever reason. That way you can just leave the snake draft to run as normal.

[Reech]

The draft shouldn't snake in the second round because we don't really have a second round. I've always said that that is massively unfair (although I appreciate that it will look this year that I'm saying it for selfish reasons as this will be the first time I've ever drafted from the bottom half).

It should go 1-20, 1-20, 20-1, 1-20, 20-1, etc.

The second round of the draft shouldn't be considered a second round. It should be a supplemental round inserted after the first round.

I'd support 1-20, 1-20, 20-1

[Reech]

Seriously, who were the "mobile" users of the sheet? and how did they access it? Via the Sheets app or Chrome/Safari etc? I need to test something.

[BBF]

I can access via the sheets app now if it helps?

[son_of_foley]

I think 20-1, 1-20, 20-1 is a good order with keepers there in round 2

[Reech]

Test fails.

My aim is to remove the 38 x Week sheets for a single sheet to help stop the spreadsheet being slow as shit due to all the formulas/conditional formatting I've thrown at it.

Question...

We have 1 sheet with all the results in but use "hide row" so the active week is always near the top or we have 38 week sheets like before

[Beefy]

I think 20-1, 1-20, 20-1 is a good order with keepers there in round 2

Trouble with that is that you're rewarding people for being shit. The guys at the top deserve to pick first. I just don't like that the current set-up gives us a situation where after the top 50 players have gone the top teams may have two high draft picks, a good keeper and a Euro player in the bank vs a lesser player with one player.

[RFF Champ]

Test fails.

My aim is to remove the 38 x Week sheets for a single sheet to help stop the spreadsheet being slow as shit due to all the formulas/conditional formatting I've thrown at it.

Question...

We have 1 sheet with all the results in but use "hide row" so the active week is always near the top or we have 38 week sheets like before

I would vote for the 38 week sheets. I used to look at it from my phone just by using Chrome.

[Reech]

Fine fine. It's just slow as shit sometimes.

[RFF Champ]

Don't just listen to me. One sheet works but you'd have to update it so the current week is on top because we're all relative simpletons that can't even handle the sort button.

[Reech]

Replacing the sort button is also on the list of things to do.

I may even take a course in graphic design to make it look prettier.

[son_of_foley]

Trouble with that is that you're rewarding people for being shit. The guys at the top deserve to pick first. I just don't like that the current set-up gives us a situation where after the top 50 players have gone the top teams may have two high draft picks, a good keeper and a Euro player in the bank vs a lesser player with one player.

OK THEN BEEFY

Keepers first round or EURO player first round or never.

Or EURO player vs Keeper. So you won the ability to take a euro player but there is a little more risk to it.

So we all get the choice of keeping a player or taking one of the top 20 draft picks. Or European players become slightly less of an advantage because you have to sacrifice your first round pick for them.

[BBF]

I think if we're decreasing the amount of players we don't need to change the draft too much. Even PG, who finished bottom last year will get 16 and 17 instead of 20 and 21 next season if we stay the same. Not a huge bounce up but enough I think.

[Beefy]

Only if he doesn't have a keeper.

[BBF]

Well in which case he'd be better off (theoretically) because he'd have 16 and a player he rates higher than 17.

[Peter Griffin]

This is hurting PG's brain :scared:

[BBF]

In fact you couldn't have a keeper as you finished in the bottom three.

Normally you'd have pick 20 and 21 in the draft for next season but if we decrease to 16 teams you'd end up with 16 and 17 instead.

[Peter Griffin]

I think I understand :lol:

[Reech]

Are we still doing bottom 3 get "relegated" and no keeper? We should (imo).

[MMH]

Actually just take keepers out of the draft and instead add in a compensation pick at the end of the first round (like the NFL Draft has at the end of the 3rd round) for teams who DON'T have a keeper for whatever reason. That way you can just leave the snake draft to run as normal.

As I said I will expand more later but my initial thoughts are that keeper picks replace a first rounder. So either you pick a keeper or not and its a big deal if you dont get to keep them.

I also want to limit Euro picks to the first 3 rounds.

[Pablo Diablo]

From a basically outsider perspective (my one dreadful season I don't believe counts)

I always found it odd how there are multiple benefits for teams which in theory have the better managers already. I understand that it gives something to play for if you're out of the title chase, but surely the teams that end up at the bottom are disinterested managers who might not have been planning on joining next season anyways.

[son_of_foley]

As I said I will expand more later but my initial thoughts are that keeper picks replace a first rounder. So either you pick a keeper or not and its a big deal if you dont get to keep them.

I also want to limit Euro picks to the first 3 rounds.
I like it.

I think if not that something like that could fit

[Canuck]

I don't agree. If I lose my first round pick to have a keeper, and have to take my euro pick by round 3, then its actually a disadvantage for me to have finished 2nd over 6th.

[MMH]

I don't agree. If I lose my first round pick to have a keeper, and have to take my euro pick by round 3, then its actually a disadvantage for me to have finished 2nd over 6th.

In what way?

The keeper would be optional. So to is the euro player technically. If there is a better option in round 3 then you can take him.

Under the current system if your keeper is one of the games best players (they should be) your first round pick is also one of the top names and you get one of the best in Europe it ends up really unbalanced.

What I will say to everyone, and we all do this, is please think of the bigger picture and not what benefits your own situation for next season.

[The Rosk]

MMh when do you want me to take on the job of Ruler of RFF?

[UK Blue]

:no:

[son_of_foley]

That's my rightful job and you know it

[MMH]

Im fine as ruler. Wont be an issue.

[MMH]

And I like the divisional cup idea, would be a good test run to see if it works.

[MMH]

One thing I would like to ask is for nobody to say "oh im not playing then" if a rule is changed/decided that they dont like. Apart from it pissing me off immensely all decisions are made with the interests of the game at heart and nothing else.

[UK Blue]

In MMH we thrust.

[Andy]

There's a danger in going too far against 'imbalance'. It's a league competition - it should reward successful players. Finishing bottom or without a Euro player doesn't mean you can't challenge for the league - that much has always been clear in this game. It rewards activeness and risk but doesn't rely on a good draft or Euro player. Taking out keepers or Euro players just makes it more of a random game with no reward.

Since I've been playing I've fought for a reduction in keepers (used to be two) and a change in where they are taken in the draft (used to be fourth and fifth round or something). That was a huge way to level the playing field, as is the snake draft. I think if you do much more you really risk diluting the whole game.

Euro players is such a tricky thing too. We took Messi and Ronaldo out last year but as I predicted one of them didn't hit the same heights and others overtook him. Do you ban more people?

[son_of_foley]

There's a danger in going too far against 'imbalance'. It's a league competition - it should reward successful players. Finishing bottom or without a Euro player doesn't mean you can't challenge for the league - that much has always been clear in this game. It rewards activeness and risk but doesn't rely on a good draft or Euro player. Taking out keepers or Euro players just makes it more of a random game with no reward.

Since I've been playing I've fought for a reduction in keepers (used to be two) and a change in where they are taken in the draft (used to be fourth and fifth round or something). That was a huge way to level the playing field, as is the snake draft. I think if you do much more you really risk diluting the whole game.

Euro players is such a tricky thing too. We took Messi and Ronaldo out last year but as I predicted one of them didn't hit the same heights and others overtook him. Do you ban more people?

Hold up soccerbase has them both scoring 50 goals. Ronaldos 7th season of that BTW so who overtook them?

[son_of_foley]

I may have read something wrong but seemingly in the past 7 years they've hit 50 goals except for 1 year for Messi when injured. 92.7% rate of >50 goals and as per usual (for maybe the 4th year in a row) you're telling people they aren't outliers.

Laughable

[Andy]

Half of those 50 Ronaldo goes weren't RFF eligible.

[Torn]

The draft shouldn't snake in the second round because we don't really have a second round. I've always said that that is massively unfair (although I appreciate that it will look this year that I'm saying it for selfish reasons as this will be the first time I've ever drafted from the bottom half).

It should go 1-20, 1-20, 20-1, 1-20, 20-1, etc.

The second round of the draft shouldn't be considered a second round. It should be a supplemental round inserted after the first round.

Yes this times a million, one of the things I mentioned to MMH a while ago. The current way makes zero sense.

[son_of_foley]

Half of those 50 Ronaldo goes weren't RFF eligible.

So name who has overtaken them then. Was it mandzukic you were saying like 3 years ago would overtake them?

[Torn]

I don't agree. If I lose my first round pick to have a keeper, and have to take my euro pick by round 3, then its actually a disadvantage for me to have finished 2nd over 6th.

No one gives a shit what helps you out the most

[Torn]

And once again if the structure means 6th has a slight advantage over the 2nd place team in draft value why does that matter? That's exactly what I was suggesting we try and go for.

[son_of_foley]

"Oh shit lads Im in a title race better tank my team so I can get the 54th pick of the draft rather than the 58th...."

Not my words but the words of hurley

[Andy]

Cavani. Aubameyang, Suarez and Lewandowski all had more weekend goals than Ronaldo.

[son_of_foley]

Did he not score 34 goals during game weeks?

Suarez got 27.
Cavani I counted as 33.
Aubayemang as 30.
Lewa the only one I had beating him at 39
This is from a cursory glance so let me know. I was checking Friday to Monday. Probably taking out ineligible goals one or more of them may have overtaken him...

Every year you talk this up.

[Torn]

Pointless argument right now lads. Yes eventually they were going to get older but no other player is a 100% lock to score 70 billion goals a weekend like those two were when they were banned so you don't have to bring up the "when does it stop :eek: let's ban this year's top scorer?!?" as a argument unless you have a serious brain injury as it completely missed the point. That was always a fucking stupid point when the original discussion went on for 5 years to begin with.

8 man squad discussion instead please. This is important.

[Andy]

No. Causes stockpiling and doesn't encourage weekly activity. Plus if we have fewer teams there'll be more good players available.

[Torn]

Explain why "stockpiling" is a bad thing?

Having one extra bench space doesn't stop activity. I don't understand that argument. Why do you think people would be less active with a bigger squad? They still have to make changes every week. Having injuries fuck your entire team and not be able to fix it because you have to drop a good player which then a title contender picks up and then ending up 30 points adrift at Christmas stops activity.

We have 4 less squads which is 28 less rostered players. Put 16 of those back on rosters. Give squads more manouverability. You weaken the impact of player skill in the game if you don't give players options to get themselves out of holes caused by luck.

[Torn]

Also the amount of times I had to seriously consider starting 4 players because of random lineup decisions combined with injuries, and the issue where we are expected to play on some weeks where half the fixtures are available (this "issue" might be moved to the new cup, and if we do have a cup during non standard RFF game weeks we will need squad flexibility to deal with it) yet our bench space to make these moves is extremely limited so it's a better long term decision to just play 3 players. That can be avoided.

[Andy]

Stockpiling is bad because you can end up in a position where transfers are less frequent. Less players available week to week which takes out the skill and excitement of late signings as a response to team news and injuries. Less exciting.

[Beefy]

As I said I will expand more later but my initial thoughts are that keeper picks replace a first rounder. So either you pick a keeper or not and its a big deal if you dont get to keep them.

I also want to limit Euro picks to the first 3 rounds.

Tory

[Canuck]

In what way?

The keeper would be optional. So to is the euro player technically. If there is a better option in round 3 then you can take him.

Under the current system if your keeper is one of the games best players (they should be) your first round pick is also one of the top names and you get one of the best in Europe it ends up really unbalanced.

What I will say to everyone, and we all do this, is please think of the bigger picture and not what benefits your own situation for next season.

Most teams with a Euro selection will have a keeper, meaning the lower seeds will actually get to select their Euro player before the higher ones in the second round. If we are forced to take them in the first 3 rounds, they will obviously take their opportunity to get the better players.

[Torn]

Stockpiling is bad because you can end up in a position where transfers are less frequent. Less players available week to week which takes out the skill and excitement of late signings as a response to team news and injuries. Less exciting.

More frustrating more like because you have zero room to respond, therefore you do nothing.

People who don't make transfers won't make transfers regardless of squad size. People who like to transfer will always be chasing squad improvement and if anything it's the opposite to what you are saying - people will be able to churn their squad at much higher rates, have less pressure in signing someone because the chances of fucking up because you had to let a player who was slightly off form but a good long term bet go in order to field 5 players for the fucking week. Many players I imagine just get set in their ways with their small squads as the majority of them will be good goalscorers. I know I did after a while as there was no reason to make a transfer.

[Torn]

Most teams with a Euro selection will have a keeper, meaning the lower seeds will actually get to select their Euro player before the higher ones in the second round. If we are forced to take them in the first 3 rounds, they will obviously take their opportunity to get the better players.

Is this really a problem?

You can also choose to not have a keeper and if Andy has a keeper you will have your pick of the best player available in the entire draft.

From the other shoe I would be picking my Euro player either super early compared to everyone else or way after everyone else and get the last one. Not bothered either way as a lot of the Euro players are the same. Likely I will be the last one as value-wise the second round pick will get a much better player domestically compared to a late third.

[Torn]

I'm not sure how many players would be kept from the players at the top of the draft next year with this change to be honest. You would have to a have very good keeper for them to be better than a top 5 pick.

[Canuck]

Is this really a problem?

You can also choose to not have a keeper and if Andy has a keeper you will have your pick of the best player available in the entire draft.

From the other shoe I would be picking my Euro player either super early compared to everyone else or way after everyone else and get the last one. Not bothered either way as a lot of the Euro players are the same. Likely I will be the last one as value-wise the second round pick will get a much better player domestically compared to a late third.

If you finish higher over the run of a season I think you should get the opportunity to have a better Euro player than those below you. It's just my opinion. I won the cup last year, and ended up with the last Euro pick which I thought was fair. I had a chance to have a better player but I would have lost a higher draft pick. I just think it's the 6th place team that should sacrifice to get the better Euro player, not the 1st place team.

[Andy]

Definitely don't think we should put keepers in the first round.

[Torn]

If you finish higher over the run of a season I think you should get the opportunity to have a better Euro player than those below you. It's just my opinion. I won the cup last year, and ended up with the last Euro pick which I thought was fair. I had a chance to have a better player but I would have lost a higher draft pick. I just think it's the 6th place team that should sacrifice to get the better Euro player, not the 1st place team.

I don't see it as a problem but that's ok.

[son_of_foley]

So what if you had to take your euro player round 1

[MMH]

Yes this times a million, one of the things I mentioned to MMH a while ago. The current way makes zero sense.

It does make sense! I dont get why people dont understand this one.

I have made keepers the equivalent strength of a second round draft pick so you either get to pick your keeper or a second rounder. Anyone who gets screwed by this system does so by their own choice by electing to keep their keeper.

[MMH]

If you finish higher over the run of a season I think you should get the opportunity to have a better Euro player than those below you. It's just my opinion. I won the cup last year, and ended up with the last Euro pick which I thought was fair. I had a chance to have a better player but I would have lost a higher draft pick. I just think it's the 6th place team that should sacrifice to get the better Euro player, not the 1st place team.

But you would have the chance to pick the better Euro player. You would elect to not take a keeper, then you can pick whoever you want.

This is exactly why I wanted keepers in the second round to give a bit of leeway for stuff like that but the reasoning for round 2 doesnt work for some people (and I will never understand why)

Ideally I would jib off keepers all together, I dont like them. The only way I would like them is to go full keeper league but that has its own problems and negates the draft which seems to be everybodies favourite part.

As for 8 man squads, that is not up for debate, it will happen.

[MMH]

So what if you had to take your euro player round 1

That is then unfair on the ones who dont have a higher end pick I suppose.

[son_of_foley]

That is then unfair on the ones who dont have a higher end pick I suppose.

Unfair in what way?

If the top 6 people all take Euro players then bottom of the league will now get the 10th best domestic player available.

If people don't take Euro players and instead go for RICKY MILLER then the game levels out anyway

[RFF Champ]

Finishing bottom or without a Euro player doesn't mean you can't challenge for the league - that much has always been clear in this game.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7qDMlVquZI1axqQ8/giphy.gif

[RFF Champ]

Bigtime no to having to pick a Euro player in the first round. First round pick is the most exciting of them all.

[Canuck]

But you would have the chance to pick the better Euro player. You would elect to not take a keeper, then you can pick whoever you want.

This is exactly why I wanted keepers in the second round to give a bit of leeway for stuff like that but the reasoning for round 2 doesnt work for some people (and I will never understand why)

Ideally I would jib off keepers all together, I dont like them. The only way I would like them is to go full keeper league but that has its own problems and negates the draft which seems to be everybodies favourite part.

As for 8 man squads, that is not up for debate, it will happen.

Yes, but why should I be at a disadvantage of not having a keeper while 6th place does, just to have the better pick I earned?

[Canuck]

If you want to do it this way, start the draft in reverse order so round 2 starts with Andy.

[BBF]

I think with changes to the draft like these we should probably introduce them now but for next season so everyone knows exactly what they are winning etc before they begin

[Torn]

It does make sense! I dont get why people dont understand this one.

I have made keepers the equivalent strength of a second round draft pick so you either get to pick your keeper or a second rounder. Anyone who gets screwed by this system does so by their own choice by electing to keep their keeper.

But all second round picks aren't equal, so it ends up being unfair to the players at the bottom of the league. The 17th pick of the draft is not equal to the 31st pick of the draft, but the lower down player would have to give up that high pick whilst the top player who already has a high first rounder and Euro pick gets to give up the low pick and then have another pick right away. I agree with the concept of keepers being second round value - all I disagree with is the draft order following it. Remove the keeper round and give players a compensatory pick at the end of the first round as per Beefy's suggestion if they don't have a keeper and it works IMO.

[RFF Champ]

I think with changes to the draft like these we should probably introduce them now but for next season so everyone knows exactly what they are winning etc before they begin

As long as it isn't too severe then I don't see a problem. Picking a Euro player in the first 3 rounds and taking round 2 out of the snake won't impact the better players much.

[RFF Champ]

BBFBrokes 17/18 outright

Torn 5/1
Andy 5/1
BBF 11/2
UK Blue 8/1
SOF 8/1
Alex 10/1
Reech 12/1
MMH 12/1
Mik 12/1
Chris Scott 16/1
Shelton London 16/1
Beefy 22/1
Badger 25/1
Hurley 33/1
Mikey_Jones 66/1
Peter Griffin 80/1

EW 1/4 1-2-3
Others on request

[Peter Griffin]

Fuck you

[Reech]

BBFBrokes 17/18 outright

Torn 5/1
Andy 5/1
BBF 11/2
UK Blue 8/1
SOF 8/1
Alex 10/1
Reech 12/1
MMH 12/1
Mik 12/1
Chris Scott 16/1
Shelton London 16/1
Beefy 22/1
Badger 25/1
Hurley 33/1
Mikey_Jones 66/1
Peter Griffin 80/1

EW 1/4 1-2-3
Others on request

Mid-table obscuritttttyyyyy

[RFF Champ]

Fuck you

I deliberated over you Peter and looked at your record last season and decided you were very unlikely to win your title in your first full season. You showed a lot of promise and shop in the same markets that I do which is annoying but perhaps held onto your gambles too long. I don’t think anyone has ever won the league in their first full season and while I can see you in midtable, I think winning the league is a step too far this year.

[RFF Champ]

Mid-table obscuritttttyyyyy

At 12/1? You're a runner mate.

[The Rosk]

I think this is finally MMH's year.

asjdghakjghadhja sorry I can't take that seriously

[MMH]

Unfair in what way?

If the top 6 people all take Euro players then bottom of the league will now get the 10th best domestic player available.

If people don't take Euro players and instead go for RICKY MILLER then the game levels out anyway

I suppose. I think it will end up with the 6th person taking Bas Dost or someone though just because they feel they have to.

I deffo dont want people taking Euro players late in the draft any more.

[MMH]

I think this is finally MMH's year.

asjdghakjghadhja sorry I can't take that seriously

I sacrifice myself for the good of the game. The boss winning just feels wrong...

Winning the MMH cup 2 times is fine as technically my name is on the cup....

[MMH]

I deliberated over you Peter and looked at your record last season and decided you were very unlikely to win your title in your first full season. You showed a lot of promise and shop in the same markets that I do which is annoying but perhaps held onto your gambles too long. I don’t think anyone has ever won the league in their first full season and while I can see you in midtable, I think winning the league is a step too far this year.

JIJ did.

To be fair it was the first season....

[MMH]

But all second round picks aren't equal, so it ends up being unfair to the players at the bottom of the league. The 17th pick of the draft is not equal to the 31st pick of the draft, but the lower down player would have to give up that high pick whilst the top player who already has a high first rounder and Euro pick gets to give up the low pick and then have another pick right away. I agree with the concept of keepers being second round value - all I disagree with is the draft order following it. Remove the keeper round and give players a compensatory pick at the end of the first round as per Beefy's suggestion if they don't have a keeper and it works IMO.

Noted.

And of course they are not equal but the first round picks were not equal either.

I have no objections to a compensatory round, I think we are all generally on the same page here just a case if where the picks would go.

[son_of_foley]

I suppose. I think it will end up with the 6th person taking Bas Dost or someone though just because they feel they have to.

I deffo dont want people taking Euro players late in the draft any more.

Oh sorry maybe I wasnt clear there is still only 5 or euro picks so no change

[Andy]

If you make it a choice between keeper and Euro player you effectively eradicate the reward for finishing in the euro places. Euro players in round 3 seems like a decent compromise.

[son_of_foley]

If you make it a choice between keeper and Euro player you effectively eradicate the reward for finishing in the euro places. Euro players in round 3 seems like a decent compromise.

No you don't. You give people the choice of picking one of the best players in Europe instead of keeping someone from their squad. You certainly lessen the reward but that's kind of what we're talking about

[Andy]

You eliminate the reward. A good keeper is equivalent of a euro player, you take one away you take away the reward for finishing in the top 6. There's lessening the reward and there's eliminating it entirely. Make Euro players round three. If we're doing a smaller league that would mean there's still big draft picks available as far down as the third or fourth round.

[MMH]

If you make it a choice between keeper and Euro player you effectively eradicate the reward for finishing in the euro places. Euro players in round 3 seems like a decent compromise.

A keeper for a Euro qualifying team (Who theoretically should be one of the best in the game) a Euro pick (again one of the best in the game) along with an early first round pick (again one of the best) is way to high a reward. Now Ok we can say that it doesnt end up that way but thats down to poor management more than anything else.

Breaking it down anyone who gets into Europe could (and should) end up with 3 first round talents in their squad. That to me is not right and needs fixing.

[son_of_foley]

You eliminate the reward. A good keeper is equivalent of a euro player, you take one away you take away the reward for finishing in the top 6. There's lessening the reward and there's eliminating it entirely. Make Euro players round three. If we're doing a smaller league that would mean there's still big draft picks available as far down as the third or fourth round.

Absolute bollocks.

[RFF Champ]

I agree with Andy. Loads of people have had on paper a good first round pick, keeper and Euro player and bombed. There are those of us who believe the draft is crucial and those of us that think it's a waste of time but the balance is somewhere in the middle and a high draft pick isn't guaranteed to be successful.

I think we need to work on redressing a potential imbalance rather than removing the fun of the game. First round picks, keepers and euro players are all fun.

[UK Blue]

Three year hiatus > Bottom of the draft > No keeper > No Euro player

5th place

What's the problem?

[Beefy]

If you make it a choice between keeper and Euro player you effectively eradicate the reward for finishing in the euro places. Euro players in round 3 seems like a decent compromise.

This. Put keeper compensation picks at the end of Round One and have Euro picks have to be made by a certain point in the draft and I think the whole draft is then as fair and balanced to everyone as possible

[MMH]

I agree with Andy. Loads of people have had on paper a good first round pick, keeper and Euro player and bombed. There are those of us who believe the draft is crucial and those of us that think it's a waste of time but the balance is somewhere in the middle and a high draft pick isn't guaranteed to be successful.

I think we need to work on redressing a potential imbalance rather than removing the fun of the game. First round picks, keepers and euro players are all fun.

What potential imbalance?

[MMH]

This. Put keeper compensation picks at the end of Round One and have Euro picks have to be made by a certain point in the draft and I think the whole draft is then as fair and balanced to everyone as possible

This could possibly work. Maybe.

Im staunch on Euro picks being taken no later than round 3.

[BBF]

Round 1
Keepers/Round 2
Euro players/Round 3

[RFF Champ]

What potential imbalance?

I wouldn't change anything personally, just cut the league to 16. I'm referring to the concerns of others about 2nd round of the draft.

I think Beefy's idea above works well. Euro players must be taken by round 3 (but not definitely in round 3) and mix up the second round.

[Torn]

This could possibly work. Maybe.

Im staunch on Euro picks being taken no later than round 3.

I agree with you both here. In this case round 2 and 3 would be full rounds right? As the 'no keeper picks' are added onto the end of the first. I think this works well

[Canuck]

Reverse the draft order from the standings, have keepers eliminate your first round pick, and make your Euro selection occur in the first 3 rounds.

The better teams get a keeper and a high draft pick or a euro player. The teams who need help can opt out of a keeper and get one of the better players. If a good team doesn't want a keeper then they aren't privy to the best player in the draft instead.

If you want to punish the relegated teams, then force them to have a keeper.

[Andy]

Round 1
Keepers/Round 2
Euro players/Round 3

This.

[The Rosk]

Yeah that looks about right IMO.

[Andy]

Genuinely if we do a 16 or 18 team league with that structure there will be very good players still available in the bottom half of round three.

[son_of_foley]

The way you see it is you get both the 1st draft, your choice of keeper and then the first euro draft?

[son_of_foley]

Or are we back to euro anytime before 3rd

[Andy]

Everyone gets a keeper, that's not any more of an advantage to any particular person.

[Andy]

Weird that you're criticising me for proposing something that's been in place without dispute for like ten years. I'm actually proposing something to reduce reward, I just don't think it should be eliminated entirely.

[MMH]

Everyone gets a keeper, that's not any more of an advantage to any particular person.

Of course it is. Theoretically the team that came first should have better players than those who came 20th so will be able to keep a better player, draft a better player AND have a Euro pick.

[Andy]

The bottom teams have some good players they could keep, I didn't bother last year. And as mentioned, if there's keepers and Euro players in play and round 2 goes 1-20, there'll be some keeper-worthy players available for draft in round 2.

[MMH]

That doesnt matter! They generally will still not be as good as the ones at the top.

I am all for rewarding people who do well the season before. Rewarding them 3 times is the issue.

[Andy]

But what I'm saying is that if people take up the reward of Euro players and keepers, it means very good players will be available in the equivalent draft positions, especially if we reduce the league.

And as UK Blue and others have pointed out, it really doesn't matter anyway. Drafting is often shite, Euro players bomb, people get injured. It's really not that hard for someone at the bottom to get to the top if they're active, regardless of any supposed advantage.

[Badger]

Well Griffiths is gonna serve me very well as my keeper! :)

[UK Blue]

Summary on what has been discussed so far and my quick thoughts:

- One league of 16 teams
One league is always good, 16 is a decent number but we shouldn't turn people away if they are keen and we think they will remain active. Past legends (and known active players) like Jay, Christopherson or Dave should be welcomed back if they are interested. We will obviously need an even number for the league but 16, 18 or 20 are all fine (so long as everyone remains active).

- Eight players per squad
Great as it'll reduce last minute transfers a bit, due to the extra option in each squad and fewer players on the market (although still more than last year due to the reduced league).

- Extended RFA Cup competition beginning with group phase
Great.

- League and RFA Cup games played separately (not over the same gameweek)
Great.

- The second round (keeper round) of the draft becomes a 'supplementary' round, starting from the bottom (16-1) - Third round of the draft also starts from the bottom (16-1)
This seems fair considering the second round isn't a proper round. However this (along with the change below) will effectively gives the lowest placed Euro teams first choice of the Euro players (none will be picked first round, few if any second round). I'm not sure that Torn or sof (or myself) deserve that more than Andy.

- Euro players must be selected by the end of the third round
I'm not sure this will have the desired effect. Late Euro picks have a tendency to bomb (Milik, Jonas). People are more likely to take a risk when picking Euro player late in the draft, by limiting to the third round this will increase the likelihood of safe, low-risk picks. Euro players bombing is hilarious and good for the game.

But I'm happy to see how all of the above plays out.

We still need clarification on trade rules. Also what now happens with the MMH Cup? (Andy, MMH and sof are still in it).

[BBF]

MMH Cup just continues until there's one person left then starts again.

[Andy]

MMH Cup keeps going next season.

[UK Blue]

What's the reward for winning?

[The Rosk]

A Euro player or an additional squad pick usually.

[Andy]

A nine man squad would be a bit ludicrous. Maybe an additional Euro player but one less squad place?

[Andy]

Is it draft time yet?

[Chris Scott]

It was yesterday mate.

[Reech]

I haven't finished my draft list yet. Spreadsheet is mostly up and ready for actual stuff soon though.

[UK Blue]

My list is... extensive. 215 names.

[The Rosk]

:lol:

[Reech]

Are we any closer to an agreed list of players/format for next season? If we're splitting tables/new fixture setup etc then I'll need time to sort the sheet out.

(FYI https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KJGF1RP_Q4zUKHa2XcRVD7Aw5c5gk4JLWDrD8o5v36Y/edit?usp=drive_web)

[son_of_foley]

I haven't started a list yet guys and with life may not get very far into one

[BBF]

The forums are a shit show at the moment. Can we sort some RFF stuff out and do something positive?

[MMH]

The forums are a shit show at the moment. Can we sort some RFF stuff out and do something positive?

Kinda busy with other mod stuff right now....

But yeah get the ball rolling and will get something sorted this week.

[Reech]

The sheet is in progress, who are the current teams? I think I count 16.

Torn
Andy
BBF
UK Blue
SOF

Alex
Reech
MMH
Mik
Chris Scott

Shelton London
Beefy
Badger
Hurley
Mikey_Jones

Peter Griffin

[RFF Champ]

Champions League coefficients

https://s2.postimg.org/niq0p1kuh/Champions_League_Group_Stage.jpg

[Beefy]

Four conferences of four.

[BBF]

Perfect.

So things we need to sort are:

- Confirmed players
- Do we switch league formats?
- Are we playing with the same rules re: Euro players?
- Are we changing the draft format at all?

I'll send a PM out to the people above and hopefully we get a tally by the end of the week.

[MMH]

Four conferences of four.

I suggest we do a cup like that as a trial run. We can afford to lose a couple of Euro places in the league now with the smaller size so we can reallocate them to a couple of cup competitions and give them some meaning.

[BBF]

Right PM sent. PLEASE ANSWER THESE FOUR QUESTIONS. We'll sort these out first then go a little deeper.

1) Are you playing this year?
2) Do we stick with the same league format or switch to a 'conferences' style?
3) Do we stick with the same rules for Euro players or restrict them to a certain round in the draft?
4) Do we stick with the normal draft format (ie snake draft, 2nd round keepers) or change things slightly?

[Beefy]

I'm not answering the first question until I know the answers to the other three.

I'm pretty sure we agreed (or got close to an agreement) on how the draft would look when it was discussed a couple of weeks ago.

[Reech]

Right PM sent. PLEASE ANSWER THESE FOUR QUESTIONS. We'll sort these out first then go a little deeper.

1) Are you playing this year?
Yes but I'll fucking hate myself for doing it. This bloody game man. This bloody game.
2) Do we stick with the same league format or switch to a 'conferences' style?
Either.
3) Do we stick with the same rules for Euro players or restrict them to a certain round in the draft?
Change things
4) Do we stick with the normal draft format (ie snake draft, 2nd round keepers) or change things slightly?
Change things

Do I answer here?

[RFF Champ]

1) Are you playing this year?

Yes

2) Do we stick with the same league format or switch to a 'conferences' style?

Same format with 16 teams

3) Do we stick with the same rules for Euro players or restrict them to a certain round in the draft?

Must be drafted within first 3 rounds

4) Do we stick with the normal draft format (ie snake draft, 2nd round keepers) or change things slightly?

Keep it the same with the second round removed from the snake, as previously discussed.

[BBF]

YES PLEASE ANSWER HERE REECH xx

[Reech]

I did.

[BBF]

I'm not answering the first question until I know the answers to the other three.

I'm pretty sure we agreed (or got close to an agreement) on how the draft would look when it was discussed a couple of weeks ago.

Aye, I think we're close to almost everything really but I thought I'd give everyone the chance to have a voice before we continue especially as we'll need to be drafting in 4/5 weeks.

[Andy]

1) Are you playing this year?

Yes

2) Do we stick with the same league format or switch to a 'conferences' style?

Same format with 16 teams

3) Do we stick with the same rules for Euro players or restrict them to a certain round in the draft?

Must be drafted within first 3 rounds

4) Do we stick with the normal draft format (ie snake draft, 2nd round keepers) or change things slightly?

Keep it the same with the second round removed from the snake, as previously discussed.

Agree with this

[The Rosk]

I would suggest that would be fine.

[son_of_foley]

1) Are you playing this year?

Yes

2) Do we stick with the same league format or switch to a 'conferences' style?

Same format with 16 teams

3) Do we stick with the same rules for Euro players or restrict them to a certain round in the draft?

Must be drafted within first 3 rounds

4) Do we stick with the normal draft format (ie snake draft, 2nd round keepers) or change things slightly?

Keep it the same with the second round removed from the snake, as previously discussed.
I think this is as close as we're getting to what I want so I'll go for it

[MMH]

I'm not answering the first question until I know the answers to the other three.

I'm pretty sure we agreed (or got close to an agreement) on how the draft would look when it was discussed a couple of weeks ago.

We did. lll post the overview wehn I am sat at a pc that can cope with it.

[UK Blue]

1) Are you playing this year? Yes
2) Do we stick with the same league format or switch to a 'conferences' style? One big league, revamped cup with group stage
3) Do we stick with the same rules for Euro players or restrict them to a certain round in the draft? Same rules, but if we change then must be picked by end of the fourth round
4) Do we stick with the normal draft format (ie snake draft, 2nd round keepers) or change things slightly? Second and third rounds start from bottom of draft (16-1)

[BBF]

121 names on my provisional list :cool:

[MMH]

118 of them play for Barnet though.

[BBF]

There should be 0 players from barnet on anyones list

[son_of_foley]

You double bluffing wanker

[BBF]

seriously. akinde is my keeper and no one else scores for us

[Peter Griffin]

1) Yes
2) Conferences
3 and 4) Keep things as they are