Under 21 European Championships

[BBF]

Starts in less than a month and the England squad was announced today. It looks quite good and I'd like to think we might do reasonably well.

Bettenelli (Fulham)
Bond (Watford)
Butland (Stoke)

Chambers (Arsenal)
Dier (Tottenham)
Garbutt (Everton)
Gibson (Middlesbrough)
Jenkinson (West Ham)
Keane (Burnley)
Moore (Leicester)
Stones (Everton)
Targett (Southampton)

Carroll (Swansea)
Chalobah (Reading)
Hughes (Derby)
Forster-Caskey (Brighton)
Lingard (Derby)
Loftus-Cheek (Chelsea)
Pritchard (Brentford)
Redmond (Norwich)
Ward-Prowse (Southampton)

Afobe (Wolves)
Bamford (Middlesbrough)
Berahino (West Brom)
Kane (Tottenham)
Ings (Burnley)
Woodrow (Fulham)

We're in the group with Italy, Portugal and Sweden so we'll be up against Berardi who has been great for Sassuolo this season, Silva who has looked decent for Monaco and Guidetti, who has long been touted as a top striker. Czech Republic, Germany, Serbia and Denmark make up the other group.

Germany are (rightly) favourites with us, Portugal and Italy trailing behind, although I fancy Serbia to shock a few people.

Quite looking forward to the tournament and to seeing what I think it a good young squad.

[RFF Champ]

Cue sof moaning about Loftus-Cheek getting in over Solly March. This squad looks much better than the one that went to the Toulon tournament. I though the Czechs looked tidy when they played us.

[Simon]

It boils my shite that Spurs have the audacity to complain about Kane going to the Euro U21s when we're taking the entire squad out for a shitbox post-season tour of Australia. Kane wants to go and Southgate wants to take him, it has fuck all to do with the club.

[RFF Champ]

Does that squad get trimmed? 27 is a lot.

[BBF]

Trimmed down to 23.

I'm not sure who I'd release from that lot though, probably Moore and Woodrow but not sure on the others.

[Beefy]

I like the look of the squad a lot. There's a lot of moaning on our boards about Dan Bentley not getting a chance but Southgate has said all along that he's going to be loyal to the players who have taken England there and won 13 of 14 so it was always going to be difficult for a League Two player to gatecrash at the last minute.

I think I'd have liked to have seen Barkley go but I get the reasonings behind the other 'established' England players not going.

[RFF Champ]

Keane and Moore have been the main centre back pairing in qualification.

[RFF Champ]

Forster-Caskey, Woodrow, Bamford and Gibson to go.

[RFF Champ]

What an opportunity this is for Garbutt to find a club that will play him. England's best player so far.

[RFF Champ]

Man of the match.

[Torn]

Forster-Caskey, Woodrow, Bamford and Gibson to go.

Gibson is so much better than Moore. Probably the best defender I saw us play against last year. Shame it was 4 bloody times.

Glad to see Pritch start tonight but doesn't sound like he played particularly well. Hope he keeps his place for the finals.

[Torn]

Marcello Trotta in the Italy squad we play! I miss him.

[RFF Champ]

Gibson was crucial to Boro this season, an absolute warrior in many games, particularly Norwich away. Moore had played a lot more though and Southgate had said that he'd stick to the players from qualifying.

[RFF Champ]

Pritchard was fairly ordinary, though linked well with the full backs which is where most of the play was. However none of them wanted to cross the ball with only Berahino in the box. It was a pretty dire performance.

[son_of_foley]

Hughes played very well I thought even if he wasn't at the very top of his game.

RLC is a fucking rolls royce of a player.

[Ringo]

http://www.gfycat.com/HappyBoilingClownanemonefish

Lovely goal. That guy's just signed for Hoffenheim. Bet they're happy they got the deal done.

[RFF Champ]

This Danish side has so much potential.

[RFF Champ]

And he was played at right back lol.

[Ringo]

Can the man.

Semi-assist from Chelsea man Andreas Christensen for that Denmark winner. Heard a bit about Sisto and he looked good.

[Ringo]

John Stones out for England's first two games btw.

[Torn]

Liam Moore starts alongside Gibson and no Pritchard. Disappointing.

Trotta has come on for Italy :hyper:

[Ringo]

There's so many highly touted players in that Portugal squad, a good few starting. Keen to see how Chalobah looks in there with the likes of Carvalho and Silva who play for Champions League sides and are valued at many millions.

Berahino and Stones being out is shit.

[son_of_foley]

They're good going forward anyway but England look like they can and will play through them.

Would rather have hughes than Carroll personally

[son_of_foley]

Keen to see how Chalobah looks in there with the likes of Carvalho and Silva who play for Champions League sides and are valued at many millions.

He looked a bit shit.

[RFF Champ]

They're good going forward anyway but England look like they can and will play through them.

Would rather have hughes than Carroll personally

I dunno what Carroll has on Southgate. I don't see what he offers that others can't do better tbh.

[son_of_foley]

I dunno what Carroll has on Southgate. I don't see what he offers that others can't do better tbh.

Ward Prowse seems firmly off the boil as well.

Hughes did alright when he came on there was a couple of moments were he drove at them and moved the ball well. I would start him for next game.

I am not convinced Kane is the right player for this type of team, Ings either for that point as I don't think either are quick enough with their feet but maybe I'll be proved wrong. I don't think they are bad players either of them but I dont think the suit this system

[Torn]

Pritch was one of the best players on the pitch when he came on and offers so much creatively (especially compared to the likes of Chalobah, Carroll and Lingard) if you get him the ball. Has to start.

[son_of_foley]

Pritch was one of the best players on the pitch when he came on and offers so much creatively (especially compared to the likes of Chalobah, Carroll and Lingard) if you get him the ball. Has to start.

Has to start him was so dynamic. Thought whilst Redmond was quiet he did enough to start again.

I don't think England were bad it was more that Bernardo Silva in particular was awesome. I know Carvalho had a good game but Silva stood out for me. Exactly the sort of player I love watching

[son_of_foley]

I know I'm spamming away here so apologies but the one thing that frustrates me with Hughes for the under-21's is because he isn't the central point of play (and I'm not saying he should be) he sometimes ends up 5 yards away from someone who has no desire to pass to him. I think he needs to be told to move further forward and look to take the ball higher up the pitch. I think with Derby everyone is so happy to give him the ball that him dropping deep is always appreciated so someone can shuttle it off to him but Ward Prowse/Carroll and others have no desire to do that so they just end up taking him out of the game.

[RFF Champ]

I don't think they're a particularly good 'team' to be honest. There's good players but the set up is quite static and doesn't really work. The midfielders do sit too deep and throughout qualification it has been reliant on the wingers out wide but they don't cross and if they do they're crossing to a lone striker who doesn't suit that. It was so noticeable when Loftus-Cheek came on against Belarus that more central forward support was needed and they looked a better team with him offering it. Additionally when Garbutt has played he has added an extra dimension in attack, as he's prepared to run inside his winger.

Personally I think Southgate is trying too hard to find players that fit a certain mould with a perceived pattern of play that they aren't actually producing and they won't be that effective at which results in dry, negative performances.

[RFF Champ]

This team also scores a lot of goals late in the second half when they are drawing or losing and eventually realise they can actually be quite a good team if they put their foot down after too much knocking it around the midfield and go for it. I think they're being sent out with one hand tied behind their back much of the time.

[son_of_foley]

This team also scores a lot of goals late in the second half when they are drawing or losing and eventually realise they can actually be quite a good team if they put their foot down after too much knocking it around the midfield and go for it. I think they're being sent out with one hand tied behind their back much of the time.

They flew out of the blocks yesterday to be fair to them. First 5 minutes they had a couple of chances then seemed to freak out a bit.

Midfield don't seem sure on what they want to do or what they are supposed to do. End up standing very close to each other.

[RFF Champ]

They flew out of the blocks yesterday to be fair to them. First 5 minutes they had a couple of chances then seemed to freak out a bit.

Midfield don't seem sure on what they want to do or what they are supposed to do. End up standing very close to each other.

They were energetic but the point stands, Kane was very isolated and a few chances came from wingers cutting in or full backs in support that resulted in not particularly dangerous shots on goal. It's quite common that our wingers look sharp and we're very reliant on them being at the top of their game because there's very little other attacking threat.

[son_of_foley]

RLC, Hughes + 1 Other for me.

Hughes does get stuck in a bit so I think it shouldnt be too lightweight.

[RFF Champ]

Ward-Prowse for me.

[Torn]

Marcello starts against us :hyper: :hyper:

[Ringo]

Chalobah starting again for some strange reason. He's been shit and RLC was effective when he came on in the second game. Good that Ings is alongside Kane though.

[Ringo]

Wow nice job Danny Ings

[RFF Champ]

Ings has got no chance at Liverpool with the pressure he'll face. That chance was far from a formality and he's taking pelters for it.

[RFF Champ]

Is that Kane or Berbatov?? What a touch.

[Ringo]

:\

[BBF]

Bugger.

[MikeHunt]

lol

[Torn]

Trotts with a nice assist for the third. What a guy.

[Peter Griffin]

lol

How are Scotland getting on fuckwit?

[son_of_foley]

How are Scotland getting on fuckwit?

Every time #smh

[Ringo]

yeah cunthead where's Scotland!

[Canuck]

Europe.

Pretty poor goalkeeping for England.

[Simon]

So what do people think is the problem? This is a team that went ages unbeaten in the run-up to the tournament. Should we be picking the likes of Wilshere, Barkley, Shaw, Sterling, Oxlade-Chamberlain etc regardless of whether they've been around the U21 squad?

[Beefy]

Wilshere, Sterling and arguably Ox are established full internationals. No way they should have gone. Barkley should have been there. Shaw seems a weird one.

[Red Dog]

England are fucking shit!

A lot of them will be on upwards of £30k a week, they don't give a fuck about this tournament they would rather be on the beach with their mates.

[Beefy]

They all could have been on the beach with their mates though. Do you think any of these players are there against their will?

Harry Kane pretty much demanded to go.

[Romford Pele]

Ox, Barkley and Sterling should have been there for us to have a real chance though.

[Beefy]

Do any of the other countries competing have established first team full internationals playing in the U21s? Honest question.

Ox and Sterling had no business being there and quite rightly were not.

[Romford Pele]

I dont know honestly. But even so, I would be suprised if so many countries fast track so many players to the first team.

[Ringo]

Number of players in under 21 squads to have appeared for the senior national side:

Czech: 4
Denmark: 10
Germany: 6
Serbia: 3

England: 5
Italy: 0
Portugal: 8
Sweden: 11

As for how many of them are "established" internationals, don't really know, but Denmark and Sweden probably have the most. Maybe a couple for Portugal and Germany.

The most noticeable difference that was highlighted yesterday was the number of top flight senior games each squad had played in between them - Italy over double England's total I believe. Germany's probably even higher than theirs.

[Romford Pele]

Well that is a different debate.

The problem is the prices that english clubs quote for top young players. Clubs will simply buy a player from Germany/Spain for £25m rather than an english player for £50m, and that filters down the leagues.

Until english clubs price their players more realistically this will mean young players wont get the games they need.

[Beefy]

You've got that back-to-front.

The problem is that clubs can buy established players for £25m from abroad rather than give a game to a kid and they do it because the financial cost of losing matches for clubs (getting relegated, not getting into the Champions League) and for managers (getting the sack) is so high that they feel unable to give youngsters a chance unless they're either desperate or are convinced the player is the real deal. Therefore fewer domestic players break-through which drives up the price of those who do.

Any club capable of spending £25m on a single player will have half a dozen kids in that same position in their youth sides that they could pick instead.

Clubs have no responsibility to price their players to be more attactive to the bigger clubs. There's so much money in the game now and the rule changes place such a premium on having English players that the prices can only go one way - that's just basic economics.

[Romford Pele]

But it doesnt work like that Beefy. Clubs may promote players but unless they are exceptional they are not going to get into the first 11 of the top sides. This has always been the case. Instead, historically English players have been transferred from the lesser teams to the bigger ones.

The problem now is the premium for english players. £40m for Harry Kane, £50m for Sterling. Very talented young players but far from the finished article.

Take Charlie Austin as another example (yes I know he is a bit older). He has had one good season at a team that has been relegated. QPR want £15m for him! A Championship side wants £15m for a striker!

[Beefy]

It hasn't always been the case though - far from it. Clubs used to give kids chances - now they cannot afford to which is why there's so few English players getting games which is one of a number of reasons why those who do cost more.

QPR don't have any reason to sell Austin for less than that money. He's a proven Premier League goalscorer and is now in the England squad.

Why do you think that clubs should sell players for less when they don't need to? Arsenal wouldn't sell to a bigger club on the cheap.

[Romford Pele]

And even prior to the rule changes English players have been at a premium for the last 5+ years.

Johan Lescott - £24m to Man City, the guy was even an England regular.

Palace want £20m+ for Bolassie, same with Berainho at West Brom. This is the problem, why do you think the top sides have not gone for these players? Too expensive.

[Beefy]

Palace want £20m+ for Bolassie, same with Berainho at West Brom. This is the problem, why do you think the top sides have not gone for these players? Too expensive.

Why should Crystal Palace or West Brom care?

English players cost a premium because they play for wealthy English clubs who have no reason to sell and no interest in selling.

[Ringo]

Bolasie isn't English.

[Romford Pele]

But those clubs then buy cheap foreign imports, while stunting the growth of those players.

This english premium is the problem.

[Romford Pele]

Bolasie isn't English.

Oops my bad.

[Simon]

Bolasie isn't English.

In this context he essentially is (qualifies as a British-trained player and has full experience of the league).

Beefy one point I would pick you up on, not necessarily because I disagree but because there is at least an argument to be had - you say that Sterling, Wilshere and the like shouldn't be near the U21 squad because they're already part of the main squad, but what about the idea that breeding a winning habit in the U21s could then transfer to the main squad when they're older? If those more experienced players played in the Euros and dragged us to a semi-final or final, would that outweigh the 'unfairness' of dropping the players who had got the U21s to the tournament? Would it outweigh the worry of burnout in players who could go years without a summer off?

[Ringo]

Ah yeah, that's a good point.

[Simon]

But those clubs then buy cheap foreign imports, while stunting the growth of those players.

This english premium is the problem.

It's not *really* an English premium though, it's mainly a Premier League premium with an emphasis on British-trained because of the new rules. Schneiderlin isn't English but is hugely priced (£25m) because he doesn't have to adapt if he moves to another Prem side and - I think - he counts as British-trained. The main issue is the PL premium and it completely stands to reason - Liverpool know they can demand a higher fee for Sterling from City/Arsenal because he's a low-risk signing having already proved himself in the league.

[Romford Pele]

I agree Simon. A lot of those German and Spanish players did we very well at under 21 level and brought it through to their senior squads.

[Simon]

The argument about British players not being given a chance is somewhat missing the point IMO. The top sides cannot afford, and should not feel obliged, to put the national side ahead of their own interest. Why should United sign a good English player for £30m when they can sign a top foreign player for the same amount? IMO you need to turn the issue around to find the answer - why aren't English players going abroad? Why does a good English player coming up at a middling Prem side only consider a handful of English sides for their next big move? If Rodwell, Sinclair, Zaha, Johnson etc were willing to move abroad, they'd find that there is a middle-ground between sitting on the bench for an elite club like City and playing regularly for a club that is good-but-not-CL-quality like Spurs.

It's not like you need to go to the backwaters of Russia and live in the arse-end of nowhere - with a little bit of ambition and bravery, good English players could be playing in the Champions League regularly for good teams, competing for major honours. Take James Milner as an example - good player, played regularly for City but not as often as he wanted. So he takes a step down to join Liverpool, who are in the Europa League, when he could be playing in the Champions League for one of Europe's top sides. Then if he does the business, maybe a top side will come in for him and trust him as a regular starter.

So yeah...there's no point in whinging about English players not getting the chances because of foreign imports, that is always going to be the case unless the FA or PL change the rules, which they won't...so why not be pro-active and take advantage of the situation by becoming a foreign import for a top side in Europe? There are loads of players who are too good for the Europa but not good enough for Chelsea or City - go off and play for Wolfsburg, or Lyon, or Porto, or any number of top European sides who compete at the highest level.

[BBF]

The other thing to consider (and i think Beefy touched on it briefly) but English clubs, even the lower half of the Premier League, are wealthy. Many of the clubs in the other 2/3 major European divisions don't have comparable wealth. Therefore they are more obliged to sell for a lower price. West Brom don't need to sell Berahino for £8m because they can afford not to. A £20m bid is silly money in comparison to his real market worth.

The 'English premium' is something that just doesn't exist in reality.

[Romford Pele]

The argument about British players not being given a chance is somewhat missing the point IMO. The top sides cannot afford, and should not feel obliged, to put the national side ahead of their own interest. Why should United sign a good English player for £30m when they can sign a top foreign player for the same amount? IMO you need to turn the issue around to find the answer - why aren't English players going abroad? Why does a good English player coming up at a middling Prem side only consider a handful of English sides for their next big move? If Rodwell, Sinclair, Zaha, Johnson etc were willing to move abroad, they'd find that there is a middle-ground between sitting on the bench for an elite club like City and playing regularly for a club that is good-but-not-CL-quality like Spurs.

It's not like you need to go to the backwaters of Russia and live in the arse-end of nowhere - with a little bit of ambition and bravery, good English players could be playing in the Champions League regularly for good teams, competing for major honours. Take James Milner as an example - good player, played regularly for City but not as often as he wanted. So he takes a step down to join Liverpool, who are in the Europa League, when he could be playing in the Champions League for one of Europe's top sides. Then if he does the business, maybe a top side will come in for him and trust him as a regular starter.

So yeah...there's no point in whinging about English players not getting the chances because of foreign imports, that is always going to be the case unless the FA or PL change the rules, which they won't...so why not be pro-active and take advantage of the situation by becoming a foreign import for a top side in Europe? There are loads of players who are too good for the Europa but not good enough for Chelsea or City - go off and play for Wolfsburg, or Lyon, or Porto, or any number of top European sides who compete at the highest level.

A couple of reasons here:-

1) The money - most clubs probably could not match the wages

2) English footballers are quite thick and would not want to learn a language or go outside their comfort zone. Even in the 90s when Serie A was the top league only Platt, Gazza (yes bad example I know) and Des Walker actually had some ambition to try something different.

[Beefy]

They'll earn more money at Cardiff or Fulham than they will at Wolfsburg, plus they won't need to learn another language or move away from their friends and family. The reality is that it's a lot easier for them to stay in the UK.

Loads of people have the chance to move abroad for work but most people don't take that chance and I think it is unfair to expect footballers to do it.

Again it comes down to the money in the Premier League and the fact that it is that which is counting against the English game. Footballers are rational creatures and Football Clubs are rational businesses and both will do what is in their best interest to do. I think the way to tackle it is the way that it is being tackled which is to mandate a certain number of English/domestic players in a squad. It is already having an impact this summer. The numbers need to be phased up over time but it will force clubs to give chances to players and know that the clubs that they are competing with have to adhere to the same rules as well. Over time, that, coupled with EPPP will make an impact across the board.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

If you look at the two most consistently successful big European club sides over the last decade - Barcelona and Bayern Munich, they both have teams comprised of players developed from within plus high quality recruits from elsewhere. The same pressures to succeed exist for top foreign club sides as for in the Premier League. The point is that the general quality of English players just isn't there, if they were good enough they would be in the starting teams, as shown by Sterling at Liverpool. Once again it comes back to a fundamental problem of player coaching and development, somewhere along the line England (and actually the rest of the home nations) has a problem with developing players who are suited to the top level of football. The fact that English club sides are now robbing foreign countries of teenage talent on an ever-increasing basis is evidence that there is no confidence in the domestic system. It's not just the first teams where English players have trouble getting a chance, but in the levels below that.

Southampton for one have shown it is possible to consistently produce Premier League-standard young English players and maintain a reasonable level of success. Perhaps it could be argued that this is representative of the fact they have a set-up which is led from the top down, rather than being dependent on whichever head coach/manager happens to be employed at that time, so there is an element of continuity in the type of player they look for and train.

[Beefy]

2) English footballers are quite thick and would not want to learn a language or go outside their comfort zone. Even in the 90s when Serie A was the top league only Platt, Gazza (yes bad example I know) and Des Walker actually had some ambition to try something different.

And you criticised Redknapp for talking lazy bollocks....

[Romford Pele]

And you criticised Redknapp for talking lazy bollocks....

How is this untrue?

Why did the likes of Ryan Giggs, Tony Adams, Alan Shearer, Robbie Fowler not go abroad when they could? I think we know the answer. Of course there are exceptions, but lets be honest footballers (and in particular english ones) are not the brightest...

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Most of the best German, Italian and Spanish players play in their own domestic league as well, it's true that English players seem particularly reluctant to go abroad but the strength of the domestic league plays the biggest part in that. The reason why most top Dutch, French and Belgian players go elsewhere is because the Bosman ruling and the Champions League have annihilated their domestic game. South Americans have always moved abroad to find success.

[Beefy]

If you look at the two most consistently successful big European club sides over the last decade - Barcelona and Bayern Munich, they both have teams comprised of players developed from within plus high quality recruits from elsewhere. The same pressures to succeed exist for top foreign club sides as for in the Premier League. The point is that the general quality of English players just isn't there, if they were good enough they would be in the starting teams, as shown by Sterling at Liverpool. Once again it comes back to a fundamental problem of player coaching and development, somewhere along the line England (and actually the rest of the home nations) has a problem with developing players who are suited to the top level of football. The fact that English club sides are now robbing foreign countries of teenage talent on an ever-increasing basis is evidence that there is no confidence in the domestic system. It's not just the first teams where English players have trouble getting a chance, but in the levels below that.

Southampton for one have shown it is possible to consistently produce Premier League-standard young English players and maintain a reasonable level of success. Perhaps it could be argued that this is representative of the fact they have a set-up which is led from the top down, rather than being dependent on whichever head coach/manager happens to be employed at that time, so there is an element of continuity in the type of player they look for and train.

There's clearly a problem with coaching and a problem with technical ability but I'm confident that EPPP is a good step in the right direction on that - we won't know for a few years. Absolutely the best English players will get a chance and that will always be the case but whilst the money is there to get established players for very little then there's no incentive to bring through domestic players.

Bayern Munich play in a one-team league. They could field three or four kids and even if they aren't very good they'll have enough to be at the top. Spain is a bit different but again Barcelona smash so many teams four or five that they can afford to give more players chances. Plus obviously the coaching is exceptional and those kids are exceptional. That is where the English sides need to get to. It is demoralising watching Chelsea and Manchester City at the top in England with one player between them having come through their own system.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

I think that's an over-simplification, the German league has probably been more competitive than the English over the past decade and will probably be moreso in the future as the economic strength of the league overall grows. Yes Bayern will always be near the top but it's also a total disaster when they aren't. The same pressures exist to succeed. They became a top European side again specifically because of the quality of their home grown players supplemented by a number of shrewd big signings. While they could field substandard young players and still win most games, it so happens that the young players they've brought in over the last decade have largely improved their team.

[RFF Champ]

The qualification campaign was tripe. The results are no reflection of the team's ability, just a weak group of players that for some reason got criminally overrated.

[RFF Champ]

There's clearly a problem with coaching and a problem with technical ability but I'm confident that EPPP is a good step in the right direction on that - we won't know for a few years. Absolutely the best English players will get a chance and that will always be the case but whilst the money is there to get established players for very little then there's no incentive to bring through domestic players.

Bayern Munich play in a one-team league. They could field three or four kids and even if they aren't very good they'll have enough to be at the top. Spain is a bit different but again Barcelona smash so many teams four or five that they can afford to give more players chances. Plus obviously the coaching is exceptional and those kids are exceptional. That is where the English sides need to get to. It is demoralising watching Chelsea and Manchester City at the top in England with one player between them having come through their own system.

What's wrong with their technical ability? These kids and the English senior team have bags of technical ability. Harry Kane took down a long ball last night with a first touch that most players go their entire career with replicating.

[Beefy]

I didn't say every player had that problem and didn't comment about this squad. It is fair to say that England as a whole have not produced many players in recent years with great technical ability hence the excitement generated by the likes of Jack Wilshere when players like that break through.

[Red Dog]

They all could have been on the beach with their mates though. Do you think any of these players are there against their will?

Harry Kane pretty much demanded to go.

Harry Kane did and he was the only one who looked like a decent footballer.

I'm not suggesting they are being held hostage there, no. Bit of a strawman from you there.

I'm sure they know that it would be bad for their careers if they didn't go, but doesn't mean they want to be there, does it?

[Simon]

Was Kane good last night and in general at the Euros then? I didn't get to see any of the games but the media seems to have been split into two camps - one going with the "second season syndrome" line, how he would have scored this or that chance a couple of months ago, while the other was saying he was the only player who looked good or even interested.

[RFF Champ]

I didn't say every player had that problem and didn't comment about this squad. It is fair to say that England as a whole have not produced many players in recent years with great technical ability hence the excitement generated by the likes of Jack Wilshere when players like that break through.

I think Wilshere is set apart because he has plenty of attacking traits and errs on the side of a probing pass or run before a sideways one. It's a different mentality to many of the English midfielders in the past (and current), I don't think he'd stand out as much stronger in terms of raw technical ability over someone perceived as a plodder like James Milner.

[Red Dog]

Was Kane good last night and in general at the Euros then? I didn't get to see any of the games but the media seems to have been split into two camps - one going with the "second season syndrome" line, how he would have scored this or that chance a couple of months ago, while the other was saying he was the only player who looked good or even interested.

I didn't think he was brilliant but you could tell he is a good player from his runs/technique etc. I don't watch him much so probably more noticeable to me than someone like you.

[RFF Champ]

Was Kane good last night and in general at the Euros then? I didn't get to see any of the games but the media seems to have been split into two camps - one going with the "second season syndrome" line, how he would have scored this or that chance a couple of months ago, while the other was saying he was the only player who looked good or even interested.

I think he did okay last night and was just Harry Kane throughout. He had little service from a relatively negative set-up that lacked invention and was his typical self i.e shooting all the time. Kane's strength is that he's a shot monster, which is what kept attracting the Championship clubs to loan him and is always going to give him a chance of a monster season like last year. Whether he's got enough ability outside of that when the inevitable droughts come is yet to be seen but he'd be quite low down on the things that meant we struggled, in my eyes.

[Romford Pele]

Im not sure what else he has in his locker apart from his finishing (which is admittedly a great thing to have).

He isnt a player who will link up, the closest player I can compare him to in terms of style is someone like Romario or Inzagi (style, not ability), where he hang around the penalty box to sniff out chances but will contribute little else.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

He's nothing like Romario or Inzaghi, and they weren't much alike either. Sergio Aguero is almost identical in style to Romario. Harry Kane is strong, good in the air, has a reasonable touch and but is exceptional at finding space. The comparison that some people seem to be making is Thomas Muller, because they both apparently lack any real stand-out physical or technical qualities, but are decent all round footballers with an exceptional ability to find space. It remains to be seen whether Kane can continue that. My thoughts are that he won't, then again I still don't really understand how Thomas Muller is a top class footballer, yet all evidence suggests he definitely is. This is also apparently the reason why Manchester United, under Van Gaal, are now genuinely interested in buying him.

[Romford Pele]

Thomas Muller is someone who works very hard and is quite good at most things, which seems to be enough. Helps that he is in one of the top 3/4 sides in the world.

I'm not sure how effecttive he would be at a lesser side.

[Beefy]

Harry Kane did and he was the only one who looked like a decent footballer.

I'm not suggesting they are being held hostage there, no. Bit of a strawman from you there.

I'm sure they know that it would be bad for their careers if they didn't go, but doesn't mean they want to be there, does it?

It isn't a strawman at all. None of them were forced to go and each and every one of them could have developed a sore ankle or a strained calf which needed resting.

[Beefy]

Kane reminds me more of a pre-injury Alan Shearer than he does Thomas Muller.

[Red Dog]

It isn't a strawman at all. None of them were forced to go and each and every one of them could have developed a sore ankle or a strained calf which needed resting.
Yes but as I put they know that it would be potentially damaging for their international careers if they did that.

You must understand the concept of doing something you think you should even though you would rather be doing something else?!

[Simon]

On the subject of English players going abroad...


Not long after the news that Micah Richards’ undistinguished season in Fiorentina ended with a swift return to a more familiar workplace at Aston Villa, it was predictable that rumours would surface about Ashley Cole’s predicament at Roma and a possible exit strategy. The pair of them, both England internationals and with Premier League winners’ medals in their collections, had gone to Italy last summer with optimism, enthusiasm, goodwill and not a little intrigue – it’s not as if English players regularly trade home comforts for the challenge of an overseas adventure.

It is deflating to acknowledge how their Italian trips fizzled out so soon. It remains a peculiarity – a foible that’s a little weird to be honest – that England seems to be the one country that does not easily export footballers. Yes, Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard – finally – are due to experience their American dream in MLS. The absence of an English player in his prime trying his luck at an elite European club, however, goes on. It is around about a decade since Real Madrid took David Beckham, Steve McManaman and Michael Owen to La Liga. Since then, not so much of substance.

Does it really matter? While the Premier League is awash with money and possesses a glitzy enough reputation of its own, does it have significance beyond a player’s personal choice where he chooses to live and work? That question brings to mind the long-held opinions of a couple of World Cup-winning grandees.

The Brazillian Carlos Alberto Parreira, who won the World Cup in 1994 and coached the national team in three different decades, noted the impact exporting players had on the seleção. Talking in 2002, he was convinced the tactical discipline Brazil’s most naturally gifted magicians gained in Europe was key. With Ronaldo then at Internazionale, Rivaldo at Barcelona and Ronaldinho at Paris Saint-Germain, their experiences at club level armed them with qualities to help them best express their talent in international competition.

Four years earlier, a similar message came from France’s World Cup-winning coach, Aimé Jacquet. It was considered a major plus point in the characteristics of the squad that so many key influences played outside the French league. Zinedine Zidane, Didier Deschamps and Marcel Desailly were all in Serie A during its glory years, Bixente Lizarazu played for Bayern Munich, Patrick Vieira for Arsenal, Christian Karembeu for Real Madrid. The lessons they all absorbed and brought back to Les Bleus’ party were regarded as vital.

For both France in 1998 and Brazil in 2002, it was the mix between the traditional qualities and style of the national team, and the international nous gained by its brightest sparks, that provided the important click at those World Cups.

With that in mind, have a look at the current Fifa world rankings. England are 15th. Now guess the only country in that top 15 that does not currently export a single international player – the clue is somewhere in this paragraph, if you do not get it straight away for some reason.

Not that exporting players is the be-all-and end-all. As it happens, apart from England, the closest to a fully home-playing squad is Italy and then Germany, the current World Cup holders, who have the next fewest number of players at clubs outside their domestic league based on most recent international squads. Those figures could have been greater, incidentally, had the likes of Toni Kroos for Germany and Marco Verratti or Thiago Motta for Italy, been selected.

Generally speaking, the vast majority of highest-ranking teams contain an abundance of players plying their trade overseas. There is one pretty compelling reason for this. The resources of the Argentinian or Belgian league, for example, and the salaries they offer, are incomparable with those of the big hitters in Europe. The impulse for the best Argentinians or Belgians to flock to a bigger, richer league is obvious. They exported 21 and 18 players respectively according to their most recent squads, the overwhelming majority.

Not only do they better themselves technically, playing with and against a higher calibre of player than they would domestically, they also have to develop personally to undertake the many challenges of living, working and integrating successfully away from home.

Chris “Magic” Waddle, as he was known during his spell in France with Marseille between 1989 and 1992, passionately believes the experience of challenging yourself as a person and a footballer in a foreign league can be seminal. He says young players at Premier League clubs who are regularly sent out on loan should spend some time in Holland, Germany, France or wherever, discovering a new type of football and, quite possibly, learning a bit about themselves, too.

Is it a coincidence that England’s best World Cup performance since 1966 came in 1990, the period when it was more regular for coveted English talent to go abroad? From that team, as well as Waddle, Gary Lineker, Paul Gascoigne, David Platt and Des Walker all signed for foreign clubs. Glenn Hoddle, who did not make that squad, was strutting his stuff in France at the time.

Today England wakes up with a familiar feeling in the aftermath of an international tournament flunk – a knockout cocktail of frustration, confusion, disappointment and blame. Now that England’s latest band of under-21s have had their proper initiation into how things are, it is time to march back to the drawing board, yet again, to wonder how to solve this syndrome of repetitive disillusionment.

The latest analysis masterminded by Greg Dyke at the Football Association points to quotas and a bid to increase playing time for young players by insisting on upping the number of home-growns in each Premier League squad from eight to 12.

Perhaps this is barking up the wrong tree, however. Encouraging English players to see some action cannot be a bad thing but it is the type of action they see that is arguably where the real fascination lies.

It is hard to envisage how either the FA, or the clubs themselves, can be expected to encourage players to choose the unknown; an adventure, a risk, instead of the familiar, the safe, and the Premier League megabucks. It may not be the answer to everything anyway. It is difficult not to wonder, however, if England’s singularity when it comes to exporting players is connected in some way to the catalogue of international letdowns.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2015/jun/25/englishman-abroad-football-export-michah-richards-ashley-cole-serie-a-england

[Ringo]

Well fuck.

[_me]

makes a lot of sense