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Simon
May 8th, 2014, 10:23 AM
Greg Dyke's Football Association commission into improving the chances of the England team by developing more homegrown players has proposed introducing a new division of Premier League B teams by 2016-17.

The proposal, a dramatic intervention in the English football pyramid that would have far reaching ramifications for the game, is one of four key recommendations made by the commission.

It has identified the "blockage" facing players between the ages of 18 and 21 as the key issue affecting the development of young English talent. In the Premier League in 2012/13, only 32% of players were qualified to play for England, reducing to 28% among the top-four clubs.

Along with introducing B teams for Premier League clubs and reforming the work permit system to reduce the number of non-EU players in the top flight, the Commission recommends a new strategic loan partnership system that would allow clubs to loan up to eight players to a single Football League side and retain more control over them.

The controversial B team proposal, sure to create a huge backlash from fans and some Football League clubs but supported by some Premier League sides, is one of several elements of a plan designed to improve the number and quality of homegrown players available to the national team.

Under the proposals, clubs will also be told to incrementally increase the number of players in their squad that qualify as "homegrown" ie those trained for at least 36 months in England before their 21st birthday. By 2020/21, it recommends that the majority of the 25-man first team squad should qualify as homegrown, rather than the current eight.

Dyke has potentially set himself on a collision course with the Premier League by concluding that the recently introduced under-21 league, due to be revamped into an under-23 league, and the 340m invested in the elite player performance plan is not sufficient to produce the level of change required.

"We recognise that making changes in football is often a slow and difficult process but we urge those in the football world to consider our proposals constructively and with open minds," said Dyke. "We urge them to balance the specific, narrowly-defined concerns of their particular club or league with what will be of the most benefit to the game overall, to the development of young players and to the success of the England team."

The commission has set a target of 90 footballers playing more than 50% of minutes in the Premier League, or any of the top five leagues in Europe, by 2022, compared with 66 today. Of these, 30 should be playing in the top six teams in the Premier League, compared with 18 today. Dyke has previously set England the target of winning the World Cup in 2022.

Dyke said on Thursday that the Commission, which got off to a rocky start with a row over the diversity of its composition, was designed to address an issue that is "a significantly bigger problem in England than anywhere else". "If the trend continues we fear for the future of the England team. If this cannot be reversed a future England manager will have fewer and fewer top level English players from which to choose."

Under the plans for B teams, each Premier League side would have the option of competing in a new League Three that would sit between League Two and the Conference.

There would be promotion and relegation between the divisions but B teams would not be allowed to rise above League One or play in the FA Cup.

The new League Three would be initially made up of up to 10 Premier League B teams and the top 10 clubs from the Conference. Should more than 10 Premier League clubs want a B team, they would be added to the Conference Premier. The commission envisages that the Premier League clubs would make a "significant" financial settlement to the Football League in return for the right to operate B teams.

Organisations, including the Football Supporters Federation and Supporters Direct, have already said they will oppose the plans for B teams to play in the Football League.

Under the proposals to strengthen the work visa system, the commission says that new rules should be considered that limit each Premier League side to only two non-EU players. If introduced today, such a rule would have an impact on a quarter of Premier League sides, including Chelsea and Manchester City.

The report notes that only 58% of players given work permits play any football in the Premier League the following year.

Under the strategic loans partnerships, Premier League clubs would be encouraged to send coaches and exchange expertise with one or two clubs with which they were partnering.

The England manager, Roy Hodgson, one of 10 members of the panel, welcomed the proposals and said he would "strongly advocate" the findings and recommendations.

"Having worked at all levels of football, and across different cultures and countries, I have some reference points about what needs to be done in England. But I am just one voice of many who have contributed to this important study and I hope the debate that has been provoked can lead to some real developments in our game," he said.

"My undoubted focus has been on first qualifying, and subsequently, preparing my England squad and staff for the World Cup in Brazil. But we all have a responsibility when called on to answer the question, how can we provide a better platform for the young England players of the future."

Dyke said there would be a second report later in the year to cover the areas of grassroots facilities and coaching.

Among the ideas considered and discarded by the Commission was the even more radical option of allowing an England Under-21 side to compete in the Championship and allowing Premier League clubs to buy Football League sides as "feeder clubs".

The winter break, often raised as a possible means of improving England's chances, is not even mentioned.

Quite a big move if it comes off but this is a shit idea isn't it? Can't see it being pushed through personally.

turdpower
May 8th, 2014, 2:14 PM
It just won't happen will it?

You're just giving the richest and most powerful a bigger advantage to improve their players. Create a whole new league structure with 92 "B" teams that are allowed to field a B team, and you might be talking. But then some teams would resist, because they're just showcasing their best players to a wider audience.

The only fair option would be to have the current reserve team league become the very bottom tier of league football. Once they got promoted they'd get the shit kicked out of them though.

Prototype16
May 8th, 2014, 2:17 PM
Yes, it's a really, really shit idea and I'm pretty annoyed that Stoke are one of the teams supporting it. Young players will learn far more by playing important games whilst out on loan to football league clubs than they ever will by playing in a B league. It seems like the loan system has come under attack in recent years due to strange cases like Watford last season and the Courtois situation but generally it is hugely beneficial both to players and club.

I also can't think of anything worse than supporting one of those 10 conference clubs who would have to play against these B teams

turdpower
May 8th, 2014, 2:21 PM
I guess it's very much like a load of people have gone "Oh look, Spain are fucking good at footy, what are some things they do?"

JP
May 8th, 2014, 2:36 PM
Every idea from football's governing bodies at the moment seems to be presenting ideas that would essentially stop club progression or regression. It's so frustrating.

El Capitano Gatisto
May 8th, 2014, 3:01 PM
Rotten idea. It works in Spain because they have next to no lower tier professional football. England has the strongest lower league system in the world, it would undermine that and also just mean big clubs accumulate even more youth players than they already do. It doesn't really seem to be a good system for top club player hoarding.

Bad Collin
May 8th, 2014, 7:00 PM
This report has ignored the possibility that English players aren't getting in Premier League teams because they are shite. We need more coaching licences and less carping about foreigners ruining the England team.

turdpower
May 8th, 2014, 7:40 PM
The amount of foreign players in the Premier League does have an effect on our national team. But only because basically no English players go abroad.

son_of_foley
May 9th, 2014, 3:01 AM
If they allow this to happen eventually the B teams would be allowed up to the championship. No doubt in my mind it would happen.

I don't see how getting these players playing at a "League 3" level is going to suddenly remove the blockage of them playing premiership football. We've seen the top table teams wanting to loan players through championship and even lower premiership teams before they get a chance.

Also this encourages them to hoover up even more young British talent and just let it rot on a reserves bench.

Genuinely awful idea.

El Capitano Gatisto
May 9th, 2014, 3:11 AM
It's like they just looked at Spain and thought "they have B teams, we should too" ignoring all other considerations.

Hlebsfall
May 9th, 2014, 3:48 AM
Fucking shit idea. Potentially you could have all the top spots in league 1 taken up by B teams, meaning you're going to promote teams that finish down in 9th and 10th. And I'm not sure how prepared the next crop of English players are going to be for having played a couple of games against Gillingham. Like has been said, the reason the likes of Spain and Germany are a success is because they've got the coaching side right.

Bad Collin
May 9th, 2014, 4:11 AM
The amount of foreign players in the Premier League does have an effect on our national team. But only because basically no English players go abroad.

Because they're shite.

This article is interesting: http://www.espnfc.com/columns/story/_/id/1572894/counting-cost-coaching?cc=5739


England has just 1,178 coaches at UEFA "A" level, compared with 12,720 in Spain and 5,500 in Germany. At "Pro" Licence level, England has 203 coaches, Spain 2,140 and Germany more than 1,000.

Obviously Pro licences aren't everything but it does seem to be the case that our kids are being coached by less qualified people.

Are Liverpools young players going to be better off playing Kidderminster than United U21's?

More importantly how would this change affect RFF?

son_of_foley
May 9th, 2014, 4:23 AM
Do we think that the Champions League rules that were in place many a moon ago helped develop english talent?

son_of_foley
May 9th, 2014, 4:25 AM
Because they're shite.


Nah far too simplistic. They don't go abroad because there's a comfort zone here. I think encouraging good relationships with foreign coaches would be massively beneficial. That might sound counter productive but in the short team you get to plug the deficit in coaches and maybe you let some of the young players know that hey going to play in Holland for a bit isn't that bad.

I think and it's a strange little example but look at Kyle Lafferty. He could've gone to play championship football but because of a good relationship with Gattuso he's gone to Austria and Italy. Now players of his calibre aren't exactly the answer but long term some players may find themselves developing strong careers overseas

Romford Pele
May 9th, 2014, 4:30 AM
Bollocks to this idea.

Why should ten conference teams in effect 'give up' their places in this new league 3 structure?

What happens if Liverpool A draw Liverpool B in the FA Cup?

I think Dyke & Co want a successful England team without touching the Premier League but dont give a shit about lower down.

If they were serious about improvement:-

1) Enforced winter break - people can live without football for a few weeks I'm sure (and no lucrative tours in between)

2) Scrap the league cup. Lets be honest, no-one gives a shit about it now. Put the Champ sides in Johnston Paints and have it without Prem teams.

3) Coaching. This idea that if you have played at top level you are a great manager is a bunch of bullshit. Those stats about coaching badges says it all. You have morons like Tim Sherwood, Peter Reid, Stuart Pearce and Gareth Southgate parachuted into jobs because they are a name. This boys club attitude needs to be stamped out. No A Licence, no managers job for any league club

4) Kids football - smaller pitches, work on technique until a certain age. Ban shithead parents who live through their kids shouting to break peoples legs etc.

5) Stop having short term view on England - I would rather we played as many kids as possible in Brazil and go out of the group stage. Long term is the key. The Spanish and Germans both did it.

MikeHunt
May 9th, 2014, 4:42 AM
How about you realise that yous just aren't as good at producing young footballers.

JP
May 9th, 2014, 4:52 AM
2) Scrap the league cup. Lets be honest, no-one gives a shit about it now.

:lol:

http://i.imgur.com/bVhp0Ca.jpg

MikeHunt
May 9th, 2014, 4:57 AM
Quite a stunning opinion given the cup drought of arsenal naitch.

RFF Champ
May 9th, 2014, 4:57 AM
Because they're shite.

This article is interesting: http://www.espnfc.com/columns/story/_/id/1572894/counting-cost-coaching?cc=5739



Obviously Pro licences aren't everything but it does seem to be the case that our kids are being coached by less qualified people.

Are Liverpools young players going to be better off playing Kidderminster than United U21's?

More importantly how would this change affect RFF?

Those are false stats because when the qualification changed Spain and Germany adopted the grandfather law which gave all the qualified coaches at the time the new badge. We made everyone retake the course if they wanted the qualification.

Romford Pele
May 9th, 2014, 6:12 AM
Quite a stunning opinion given the cup drought of arsenal naitch.

It is totally devalued now.

Romford Pele
May 9th, 2014, 6:12 AM
:lol:

http://i.imgur.com/bVhp0Ca.jpg

Hope this doesnt happen next Saturday!

Romford Pele
May 9th, 2014, 6:14 AM
Quite a stunning opinion given the cup drought of arsenal naitch.

I'd rather have that than be Rangers right now. :lol:

Torn
May 9th, 2014, 6:18 AM
I think Dyke & Co want a successful England team without touching the Premier League but dont give a shit about lower down.

I don't like the idea but Dyke was Brentford chairman for seven years, saying he doesn't give a shit about "lower down" is pretty far off the mark.

Romford Pele
May 9th, 2014, 6:21 AM
Hang on. Just because he was a chairman for one club doesnt mean anything, just look at the proposal.

If you are a fan of a non-league club and suddenly it is turned into a B League how is that consideration?

Torn
May 9th, 2014, 6:32 AM
I'm taking issue with one comment you said about him not caring. Whether he is thick is another matter entirely.

Bad Collin
May 9th, 2014, 7:09 AM
I don't like the idea but Dyke was Brentford chairman for seven years, saying he doesn't give a shit about "lower down" is pretty far off the mark.

Do you think a decent crowd would show up for Brentford v Arsenal B?

I think some kind of 'loan pool' and raising the prestige of the U21 league would work better than a third league.

BBF
May 9th, 2014, 7:26 AM
Its utter bullshit. Clubs at the level of Barnet struggle enough as it is, doing this will kill off dozens and actually stop young players having any chance of playing anyway.

Backwards thinking.

Torn
May 9th, 2014, 7:39 AM
Do you think a decent crowd would show up for Brentford v Arsenal B?

Can't imagine crowd numbers would be any different to any other league fixture to be honest. Hopefully we don't come straight back down after promotion, can maintain Championship status until our new stadium is complete in two seasons and not have to worry about facing B teams.

I don't understand why they think a bunch of youngsters playing at Conference level will benefit them. Apart from the obvious stuff affecting the clubs at that level which BBF rightly has an issue with, the standard they want these teams to play at is a strange choice. If you have a good prospect, a potential future England international then they are never going to get loaned out to a Conference club from a Premier League side because that wouldn't make sense for their development. Championship/League One does, and even then it's not like George Saville after spending a full season at Brentford is suddenly going to be part of the Chelsea team. He needs more first team football at a higher level to continue his development but in this new scenario would he just end up playing another year pissing it at Conference level with Chelsea B? Odd.

Torn
May 9th, 2014, 7:41 AM
"Among the ideas considered and discarded by the Commission was the even more radical option of allowing an England Under-21 side to compete in the Championship"

That idea even being considered is laughable.

son_of_foley
May 9th, 2014, 8:08 AM
Can't imagine crowd numbers would be any different to any other league fixture to be honest. Hopefully we don't come straight back down after promotion, can maintain Championship status until our new stadium is complete in two seasons and not have to worry about facing B teams.

I don't understand why they think a bunch of youngsters playing at Conference level will benefit them. Apart from the obvious stuff affecting the clubs at that level which BBF rightly has an issue with, the standard they want these teams to play at is a strange choice. If you have a good prospect, a potential future England international then they are never going to get loaned out to a Conference club from a Premier League side because that wouldn't make sense for their development. Championship/League One does, and even then it's not like George Saville after spending a full season at Brentford is suddenly going to be part of the Chelsea team. He needs more first team football at a higher level to continue his development but in this new scenario would he just end up playing another year pissing it at Conference level with Chelsea B? Odd.

Exactly.

I think the premiership clubs have a level of distrust of the coaching methods at lower league teams and really they think keeping them in fold is better if they can get 'competitive' football. I think it's ridiculous. Could you imagine the fucking conference teams having to play against Nathan Ake etc

son_of_foley
May 9th, 2014, 8:10 AM
"Among the ideas considered and discarded by the Commission was the even more radical option of allowing an England Under-21 side to compete in the Championship"

That idea even being considered is laughable.

I could see them trying to enter an 'academy' side from the burton location. Probably would look to do it intially in this league 3. English FA would then be able to 'sell' the players and invest back into grassroots

turdpower
May 9th, 2014, 11:48 AM
Do you think a decent crowd would show up for Brentford v Arsenal B?

I think some kind of 'loan pool' and raising the prestige of the U21 league would work better than a third league.

I think that crowd would be fine.

Arsenal B vs Brentford would be mostly away fans though.

Simmo Fortyone
May 11th, 2014, 6:46 PM
So what would happen when a team gets relegated from the Premier League? Their B team gets replaced by whatever Championship side comes up?

Andy
May 11th, 2014, 7:16 PM
This idea is just garbage on every level. So you'd have 10 B teams and 14 Conference teams. So nearly half of the fixtures will be the same as they are now in the U21 league and the rest will be B teams playing poor opposition. How do they decide which 10 go into the league?