England vs Chile; England vs Germany

[Simon]

Carrick, Gerrard, Welbeck and Walker all out for Friday's game so it looks like we could see a few debuts - Forster is set to get 45 minutes and the papers reckon Rodriguez might even start, with Lallana on the bench.

Quite looking forward to these games now - the gradual removal of the old guard means we've now got a reasonably young side coming through. Not as talented as the previous bunch, but not as jaded by success either. It feels good to not see the same old players being mentioned - only Cole, Gerrard and Lampard still remain from the 'golden generation'.

We should be looking at a starting eleven of something like...


Ruddy

Johnson - Cahill - Jagielka - Baines

Lampard - Wilshere

Townsend - Rooney - Rodriguez

Sturridge

Not bad.

[JP]

Ruddy over Hart?

[Simon]

The papers reckon Ruddy and Forster get 45 minutes each in this game, then Hart plays against Germany.

[JP]

Fair play. I can't see anything but Hart and Foster battling it out for the spot come Brazil to be honest, but hey.

A good couple of games to see where abouts we are, really looking forward to Germany. :D

[Simon]

I'm sort of dreading the Germany game - if we win, people are going to start building us up. Which would be understandable given that we've already got a win and a draw against Brazil this year...but after 15 years of raised hopes and shattered dreams, I think we could do with expectations being as low as possible.

[son_of_foley]

Lampard has been useless this year. Would throw someone else in the centre. Maybe Gerrard as he's been doing ok from what I've seen Lallana at some point too

[son_of_foley]

Didn't realise Gerrard was out. Stupid head

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Sky Sports are showing the Sweden-Portugal play-off games. Will be watching those to the max, even with the dawn of the MON-Keano era.

[MikeHunt]

Forster should be playing the whole game. Drop dafty head and shoulders man 100%. Forster been outstanding this year and fully deserves a chance. Is ruddy even playing for Norwich?

Anyway.....

I hope yous get pumped

[MikeHunt]

Marcelo salas was some player

[Andy]

I'd be surprised if Forster was anything but third choice come July. He won't be playing a single decent team after Christmas.

[Simon]

Yeah regardless of how good he is, you can't pick someone from the Scottish league if they're not even in European competition. Joe Hart will be getting better preparation for a World Cup in training for City than Forster will get playing Bonnyrigg Rose eight times before the end of the season.

[MikeHunt]

Stupid.

[MikeHunt]

You took Rooney and beckham to world cups injured and played them. Absolutely no fucking logic in who someone is playing against as a sign of form. Hart has been shite Forster has been outstanding for a few seasons.

[Simon]

You took Rooney and beckham to world cups injured and played them. Absolutely no fucking logic in who someone is playing against as a sign of form. Hart has been shite Forster has been outstanding for a few seasons.


Both of those were stupid decisions.

In all probability Celtic will not play a top-level game between 11 December (final group game against Barcelona) and the end of the season. They don['t even have a vaguely comparable team in Rangers to compete with domestically. That is not adequate preparation for a major tournament.

[Bad Collin]

Neither is not having first team football. Hart can't play for England if he can't get in goal for City. Our keeper situation is looking a bit grim.

[MikeHunt]

It's not really cause Forster is pretty outstanding.

do you think Netherlands or Portugal for example would hesitate taking a player not playing in a top leauge to a major tournament? Or some reason this could only be a problem in England

[Simon]

Realistically Hart will be back in ahead of Pantilimon soon, it's pretty obvious that this is just a kick up the arse for the moment because Pantilimon isn't a good enough goalkeeper to replace him. The bigger issue comes in January, apparently Pellegrini is looking at Caballero from Malaga and the papers keep linking Casillas to City...so maybe Hart will have a decision to make then. But as of right now it's not an issue because Hart will be back as City's first choice keeper within a few weeks for sure.

[Gary J]

How do you know Pantilimon isn't good enough to replace Hart?

He's barely played and a quick look at his stats show he has played 16 times kept clean sheets in 9 of them and I doubt you've seen all 16 games to make this judgement.

[MikeHunt]

Heard it on a podcast, read it in the guardian, saw it on a blog/forum, itk on twitter. Probably the same place that states that a player not playing in England, Spain or Germany shouldn't be playing for England.

[Simon]

Heard it on a podcast, read it in the guardian, saw it on a blog/forum, itk on twitter. Probably the same place that states that a player not playing in England, Spain or Germany shouldn't be playing for England.

You don't think the standard of player you're playing against has any bearing on how you will play? What are you talking about?

Gary J, I've seen him play a few times, he doesn't look very good. He has a load of clean sheets because most of his games have been in the early stages of the cups against lower league teams.

[MikeHunt]

So in essance a goalkeeper playing for a bottom half EPL team getting 2 or 3 pumped past him a week is more equipped to play for England than someone playing in Scotland or comparable leauge?

[Gary J]

Precisely he mainly plays against lower league teams and has fuck all to do a bit like when he played against Norwich the other week,

He was pretty good against Chelsea in the fa cup semi.

[Simon]

So in essance a goalkeeper playing for a bottom half EPL team getting 2 or 3 pumped past him a week is more equipped to play for England than someone playing in Scotland or comparable leauge?

Yes, of course. It's mad that you don't see how obvious that is. Even the worst PL team is playing against top teams most weeks - there are six or arguably seven of the best teams in Europe in the PL.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

I think you're over-stating this a bit. He's a goalkeeper, not a striker. He'll still face good shots and, if anything, being in a team much stronger than the opponents means he has to concentrate more. I haven't seen any of Forster in the SPL but he has looked the business in the CL. I think you have to go on his ability to decide on him as an option. Being a goalkeeper in a poor league doesn't have the same implications for general quality of play because of the niche of the position. If Forster can prove himself in England friendlies, and now is the time to try it, then of course he should be considered. Ruddy was woeful against Man City, being woeful against Man City shouldn't be better than playing well in the SPL (if he does) and occasionally in the CL. Ruddy just hasn't been playing well this season, your argument flounders on that point alone.

[The Rosk]

Forster when playing against some of the best European teams in the CL has always been strong. His performance vs Barca last season was one of the best I've seen for years. And there'll be (hopefully) less constant shitting on the goal like there is in the CL for Celtic.

I don't see an issue here.

[turdpower]

Yeah I reckon I'll watch Zlatan vs Cristiano too.

Hopefully it'll be exactly like that old Joga Bonito Nike advert.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfL8b5ZlnIc

[Darkoke]

There's that English keeper playing for someone in Portugal - saw him suggested as a potential solution.

[MikeHunt]

Surely Forster is a billion times more qualified than him?

Fucking madness!

[Bad Collin]

I'm with Mike. Forster should get a run in the side until Hart gets his form back.

[turdpower]

There's that English keeper playing for someone in Portugal - saw him suggested as a potential solution.

It's not the Premier division, I just had a quick glance at all their squads on Wikipedia (unless he's actually a different nationality and qualifies for England through parents etc)

I did see that there is an English lad who plays for Sporting Lisbon and came up through their youth system, which is different to see. Eric Dier, 3 caps for our U21's and still only 19.

[MikeHunt]

It's some chap who had a trial at Aberdeen a couple of years ago and they said he was too inexperienced. Pretty sure Simon and the media would shit a brick at the thought of that.

[Ringo]

It's this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Jones_(footballer_born_1986)

Premier Division but they were only promoted last season.

[turdpower]

Guys, I can see why we haven't gone for him...

[MMH]

It's not the Premier division, I just had a quick glance at all their squads on Wikipedia (unless he's actually a different nationality and qualifies for England through parents etc)

I did see that there is an English lad who plays for Sporting Lisbon and came up through their youth system, which is different to see. Eric Dier, 3 caps for our U21's and still only 19.

He was at us for 3 years whilst he went through school. Supposedly a decent prospect.

Matt Jones is the goalie isnt he? Plays for Belenenses. Yeah the one Ringo linked.

[JP]

Well, great start.

[MMH]

ITV player is like the shittest most useless thing ever.

[Simon]

Feel a bit sorry for Rodriguez here, looks completely overwhelmed so far. Lallana much more involved, his first touch is filth. Lampard is offering nothing.

[Ringo]

Oh France.

edit: and "90+1 Laurent Koscielny (France) is shown the red card for fighting"

[Simon]

Fuck me Sanchez has been class tonight.

[JP]

Great night not to play.

[Andy]

Chile just better all over the pitch. Bring on Germany. :scared:

[Andy]

Also Greece looking good for the finals, beating Romania 3-1, Iceland drew 0-0 with Croatia, Portugal narrowly beat Sweden 1-0 and France were apparently shit against Ukraine, going down to 10 men and losing 2-0. Odds on that they won't be at the finals.

[Bennedy]

Was we as shit as I thought? Or was it bacause I was drinking?

[turdpower]

We were better than your grammar.

[Mik]

A good old bringing back down to earth is just what we needed to temper expectations.

[Simon]

Lallana starting again appaz.

[RFF Champ]

Team was announced yesterday.

Hart, Walker, Smalling, Jagielka, Cole, Gerrard (capt), Cleverley, Townsend, Rooney, Lallana and Sturridge.

[Simon]

Mad world we're living in when the players that shit me up most about that team are from United. Smalling and Cleverley :eek:

I think Townsend needs a big game tonight or he could be in for one of the shortest hype periods of all time. The fact that he wasn't actually playing that well for Spurs wasn't really noticed prior to his England debut but since then it's been pointed out a few times...he did very little on Friday as well. There seems to be this assumption that he's now an automatic pick for England, but he's got a lot to do to justify it.

[RFF Champ]

Townsend will have to get used to playing on the left, if at all, when Walcott is fit.

[MikeHunt]

Hope yous get pumped again.

[Simon]

GK Scott Fox 28 June 1987 (age 26) 0 0 Scotland Partick Thistle
GK David Marshall 5 March 1985 (age 28) 9 0 Wales Cardiff City[note 5]
DF Christophe Berra 31 January 1985 (age 28) 27 2 England Ipswich Town
DF Gordon Greer 14 December 1980 (age 32) 1 0 England Brighton & Hove Albion
DF Alan Hutton 30 November 1984 (age 28) 37 0 England Aston Villa
DF Russell Martin 4 January 1986 (age 27) 9 0 England Norwich City
DF Lee Wallace 1 August 1987 (age 26) 8 0 Scotland Rangers
DF Steven Whittaker 17 June 1984 (age 29) 22 0 England Norwich City
MF Charlie Adam 10 December 1985 (age 27) 23 0 England Stoke City
MF Ikechi Anya 3 January 1988 (age 25) 3 1 England Watford
MF Stuart Armstrong 30 March 1992 (age 21) 0 0 Scotland Dundee United
MF Barry Bannan 1 December 1989 (age 23) 15 0 England Crystal Palace
MF Scott Brown 25 June 1985 (age 28) 35 2 Scotland Celtic
MF Craig Bryson 6 November 1986 (age 27) 1 0 England Derby County
MF Craig Conway 2 March 1985 (age 28) 6 0 England Brighton & Hove Albion
MF Gary Mackay-Steven 31 August 1990 (age 23) 1 0 Scotland Dundee United
MF James McArthur 7 October 1987 (age 26) 14 1 England Wigan Athletic
MF Robert Snodgrass 7 September 1987 (age 26) 14 3 England Norwich City
FW Kris Boyd 18 August 1983 (age 30) 18 7 Scotland Kilmarnock
FW Steven Naismith 14 September 1986 (age 27) 26 3 England Everton

:lol:

[MikeHunt]

I don't get what's supposed to be funny.

[Simon]

Your squad is laughable.

[MikeHunt]

I never once said we were any good.

That laughable team still stuck two past the magnificent England.

i REALLLLLLY fucking hope you get pumped now.

[Simon]

Do you not find it depressing that the most emotion you can get out of international football is through hating a team that don't even consider you a rival?

[Gary J]

Stupid thing to say there Simon. Of course they are still our rivals i mean i treat them the same way i look at Scunthorpe but too much history to just suddenly think i don't care about them. I'll still find it funny if they lose to the faroe islands or someone the same way i expect Mike would be hoping we got beat by in the world cup by some minnow.

[MikeHunt]

Do you not find it depressing that the most emotion you can get out of international football is through hating a team that don't even consider you a rival?

You really are clueless sometimes.

[Simon]

Stupid thing to say there Simon. Of course they are still our rivals i mean i treat them the same way i look at Scunthorpe but too much history to just suddenly think i don't care about them. I'll still find it funny if they lose to the faroe islands or someone the same way i expect Mike would be hoping we got beat by in the world cup by some minnow.

I don't think many England fans would agree with you.

[Simon]

You really are clueless sometimes.

Which bit is wrong?

[MikeHunt]

A - that England and Scotland aren't rivals.
b - that I don't get enjoyment watching Scotland. I have been incredibly positive about the progress we are making with a "shit squad".


IIRC were you not arguing recently about who spurs rivals are. You seem to have a football manager mentality regarding rivalries.

They are historical. There is no bigger rivalry than Scotland and England in Europe.

[Simon]

I don't think England fans really care about Scotland. Of course it's a historical rivalry but it's not relevant any more really. As shown by everyone in Scotland nipping down to London for the game a couple of months back, barely stopping to say hi to family members in various shop doorways across the city, while England fans wandered in five minutes before kick off and hardly showed any interest until Lambert scored.

The comment about it being the biggest rivalry in Europe is even funnier than Scotland's shite squad.

[RFF Champ]

Putting bubbles in our fountain doesn't mean we care. I don't think anyone down here really cares about playing Scotland anymore.

[Gary J]

I don't think many England fans would agree with you.

Course they would it's a historical rivalry. After the recent friendly there was talk of it becoming a regular fixture again as it had been such a success.

[MikeHunt]

I completely disagree. Simon you can't even decide what nationality you are.

Historically England vs scotland is the biggest rivalry in Europe.

the reason IMO that England fans aren't interested is the FA refusing to play against the home nations regularly and again IMO that is incase you are beaten and "embarrassed" by a "shit team."

[RFF Champ]

You can't fuel a rivalry through friendlies. I doubt there's anyone here who would be sad to see friendlies during the season go because they have zero importance and are an unwanted distraction to players.

[Simon]

Ahahaha come off it. Even you don't believe that toot. They don't want to do the home nations thing again because there's no money in it because no one cares.

[Simon]

You can't fuel a rivalry through friendlies. I doubt there's anyone here who would be sad to see friendlies during the season go because they have zero importance and are an unwanted distraction to players.

Maybe if Scotland qualified for a tournament once in a while this glorious rivalry could be reinstigated.

[MikeHunt]

80,000 in Wembley and 9 million homes disagree.

[MikeHunt]

Significant figures for a game no one gives a fuck about.

[Gary J]

If England fans care so little about Scotland simon why did you post the Scotland squad just to laugh at them. I mean surely you could have the same for Wales ?

[MikeHunt]

63000 at Wembley on Friday can't find the tv figures but I'm pretty sure it won't be 9mil.

[The Rosk]

I reckon if there was a trophy, no matter how shit it was, to be claimed between Scotland and England, then it would add a little spice to it. Otherwise it is just a friendly.

Even though Le Tournoi was the worst trophy ever, we gave a bit more of a shit about it than usual.

[MikeHunt]

This was offered but declined as England according to Simon don't make any money out of friendlies against Scotland. Despite the home nations tournament getting picked up by sky that England refused to play in because they don't want to be embarrassed by "weaker nations."

I mean imagine the amount of managers yous would rattle through and still be paying if you did!

[MikeHunt]

A trophy like the Calcutta cup in the 6 nations is a perfect example of the rivalry between Scotland and England.

[Hlebsfall]

Get the Sweden game. All going on. Ibra just blooted a free kick in.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Poor Zlatan. Just when it looked on. It's gutting to see those Greek pricks sail through to stink up another tournament while Ibra sits on the beach. Fuck sake.

[MikeHunt]

It's been a lovely game of football.

[Red Dog]

Ahahaha come off it. Even you don't believe that toot. They don't want to do the home nations thing again because there's no money in it because no one cares.

It was stopped because of hooliganism I think in the mid 80s. If it carried on the rivalry would probably seem bigger.

[MikeHunt]

So we can all agree that Simon is wrong.

[Red Dog]

I think it is bigger rivalry than Simon is giving credit for but also I think is it is much more one sided rivalry than you are giving credit for. I don't personally care about Scotland but I barely care about England so I am not the best example here.

[Bad Collin]

If I had to demonstate English football to someone who has never seen it before I would show them that game; lots of running, shouting and tacking but no guile, creativity or final balls.

[JP]

Why don't England play like English teams do?

Spain, Italy, Germany etc are all pretty close to mimicking the style of their club teams, but not us.

[MikeHunt]

Why don't England play like English teams do?

Spain, Italy, Germany etc are all pretty close to mimicking the style of their club teams, but not us.

Cause the top players all play throughout different sides where as those teams the majority play for a couple of sides, (real/barca, Milan/juve, Bayern/Dortmund).

[MikeHunt]

That's just something I read recently btw.

[Andy]

Lee Dixon's analysis at half time was depressing. Any time England had the ball deep you had Sturridge and Rooney hanging off the centre backs, Townsend marked by two players on the touchline, Gerrard barely further forward than the centre backs and Lallana easily dealt with by one or two Germans as he was the only one trying to move into space. There was pretty much no midfield, just such a gulf in quality and tactics.

[JP]

That's just something I read recently btw.

But even when it was mostly Man U and Liverpool we've never really seen England play like a top Premiership team.

Meh.

Just to chime in on the England/Scotland thing, I was at Wembley for the friendly and the atmosphere was the best of any game I've ever been to. Scotland are our main rivals, bar none.

[Bad Collin]

Why don't England play like English teams do?

Spain, Italy, Germany etc are all pretty close to mimicking the style of their club teams, but not us.

We don't have any players with the technical ability to control the game like they do.

[JP]

We don't have any players with the technical ability to control the game like they do.

That's not really what I meant though mate.

La Liga is revered for it's quality passing, fluid movement and possession play, as are Spain. The Bundesliga for it's technical and intelligent play and great teamwork, as are Germany. Serie A is slower, more deliberate with a patient build, as are Italy.

England don't play how the Premiership generally is though. Direct, high tempo, aggressive, powerful. This is how the majority of English players play on a weekly basis so why doesn't that then transfer itself into how they play for England?

[Andy]

Because the key players in Premier League teams aren't English.

[JP]

Because the key players in Premier League teams aren't English.

It's not only the key players who play that way though, it's the majority of players in the league.

I don't know, it just seems that because success evaded us for so long we look outwards and try to emulate other teams when we don't have the kind of players to do it well. By concentrating on our strengths and what we do well instead of trying to be as technical as others or to control the possession and I think we'd have a better shout of it.

[Bad Collin]

That's not really what I meant though mate.

La Liga is revered for it's quality passing, fluid movement and possession play, as are Spain. The Bundesliga for it's technical and intelligent play and great teamwork, as are Germany. Serie A is slower, more deliberate with a patient build, as are Italy.

England don't play how the Premiership generally is though. Direct, high tempo, aggressive, powerful. This is how the majority of English players play on a weekly basis so why doesn't that then transfer itself into how they play for England?

But that's how we played last night. Physical football may work in the championship but it is not going to cut it at international level. Englands problem is that we do try and play the way you described but it doesn't work at major tournaments and we don't have the technical players to try anything different.

[MikeHunt]

That's possibly the most honest statement from an England supporter I've ever read.

[The Rosk]

Gudjohnsen crying after his last match. Who the fuck would do that in the current England setup. Noone.

Fucking cunts the lot of them. Get the youth in and see this as a blooding exercise. Fuck the old cunt millionaires. Never gonna win it with them so sack them off and let's get behind a young team and give them experience. Wankers.

[MikeHunt]

That takes a pile of bottle to do that and I honestly don't think Roy is the man to do that. You need someone who wouldn't fear the press backlash of making such choices.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Physical football can work at international level, Holland pretty much kicked their way to the final last time out, Greece effectively kicked their way to winning Euro 2004. Both teams were well-organised and had disciplined players. In Holland's case they also had some very talented attackers. Germany aren't as possession-focused as Spain, either, they're more about high pressing, getting the ball forward quickly, width, movement and hard work, something that England could and should be good at and an approach Germany decided on after their weak period in the late 90s/early 00s. The problem is England don't have a very good crop of players at the moment. There is a traditional, lasting lack of tactical discipline too. There is an issue that English players are consistently less comfortable in possession than those from other nations and there has been a traditional reluctance to even use the type of midfielder who likes to have the ball. Michael Carrick is the closest thing to having that player and he has 30 odd caps over a decade.

[The Rosk]

And I mean the proper youth by the way and I do understand he played quite a few last night. But I'm talking like half of the U21s from last night. Get them as much international experience as early in their careers as possible. Maybe keep Rooney and Baines in there but sack everyone else over the age of 25. Get Gerrard out of there - despite him being a decent performer for us, he basically takes on the mantle of "put everything through me" and he's not good enough.

Put the talismanic role open to the team.

Otherwise it will always be horrifically predictable bollocks football. I am not looking forward to the World Cup at all. Embarrassment season.

Cleverley is so dogshit by the way.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Going back to the Wayne Rooney thing that Peter Griffin tried to bully me about last week, his form lately is indicative of the problem. He has been getting praised this season just for running around and looking interested, the minimum a footballer should do. His play in possession has been pretty poor, there's a lack of intelligence about his game now and a wastefulness with the ball. He shouldn't be getting praised for that.

[The Rosk]

Rooney's flick-ons have an approximate success rate of 4%.

[MikeHunt]

Stats!!!!

[son_of_foley]

Some pretty interesting young players in that English setup. My interest was obviously mainly in Will Hughes but I like Berahino, Bamford, Sterling, Morrison and Ward-Prowse as well.

Morrison is a genuine live wire and Hughes is tactically and technically very very competent. Think they both could offer something in the near future. That said a wrecking ball behind Lallana and Wilshire would be interesting

[son_of_foley]

And Mike as much as I agree with the overall point about the rivalry between Scotland and England. Let's not pretend the celtic cup was anything other than a complete farce

[Simon]

sof how high up would Will Hughes features on the Miles Addison scale of definite future England stars? :D

[Gary J]

Will Hughes will go on to be better then Jack Wilshere.

[Gary J]

Saying that he is already better then him.

[Gary J]

So is Tom Cleverly.

[RFF Champ]

Cleverly will have to go through what Henderson went through before it's recognised that he's quite good.

[JP]

I do find your Wilshere hate strange, Gary.

Future England Captain, that one.

[Gary J]

I would say not a chance he's ever England captain but then it gets tossed around so easily.

To be fair it's not hate i have for him i just don't think he is anywhere near as great as made out to be and i find all these comparisons to Scholes and Gazza laughable.

If anything points out how he has failed to live up to the hype it's that he must be great because he had a good half against Barcelona a few seasons ago. Where have these great performances been since?

Lets not fool ourselves he was any good that night either as being a standout in that Arsenal team that night was like beingthe best looking in the pogues.

[Simon]

Don't see Wilshere as captain material at all. I took a bet with my mate yesterday that he won't even go to the World Cup, cunt can't stay fit for more than fifteen minutes.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

Cleverly will have to go through what Henderson went through before it's recognised that he's quite good.

He's not great. Henderson is a much better player, as good on the ball and a good passer, but physically much more of a presence. Cleverley is an average footballer and physically lightweight, one-paced and injury prone. Perhaps his serious injuries as a younger player have taken a bit out of him. Cleverley also offers no goal threat from midfield whatsoever. Henderson suffers more from being seen as versatile and being shunted around the pitch as anything to do with his general play, as well as being lumped in with Carroll and Downing as crazy signings for Liverpool.

[RFF Champ]

I agree that Henderson is much better but he's at the stage where it's widely accepted he's no good when he is. When he was at Wigan he took a lot of praise.

He's similar to Henderson in that he always shapes his body so that when he receives the ball he's looking to move forwards and pass forwards. His quick interplay is good and he has good technique. Lightweight, wasteful at times both fair criticisms.

On Henderson, his throughball that Sturridge cocked up was class.

[El Capitano Gatisto]

He was at Wigan a while ago now, Cleverley is 24 and can't really be considered a young player these days. He should be established as a first-team player at United if he has what it takes because their midfield is exceptionally poor for a top level side. That he can't hold down a place is indicative of how mediocre he is. As I say, injuries probably haven't helped (he has had his fair share) but it's tough to see it getting any easier for him at United in the future given they recognise the need for midfielders now. Maybe a drop down will do him good, but it's difficult to see what he offers against good teams.